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posted by martyb on Friday July 24 2020, @09:27AM   Printer-friendly
from the counting-is-hard-when-it-counts dept.

With No Final Say, Trump Wants To Change Who Counts For Dividing Up Congress' Seats:

President Trump released a memorandum Tuesday that calls for an unprecedented change to the constitutionally mandated count of every person living in the country — the exclusion of unauthorized immigrants from the numbers used to divide up seats in Congress among the states.

The memo instructs Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, who oversees the Commerce Department, to include in the legally required report of census results to the president "information permitting the President, to the extent practicable" to leave out the number of immigrants living in the U.S. without authorization from the apportionment count.

But the move by the president, who does not have final authority over the census, is more likely to spur legal challenges and political spectacle in the last months before this year's presidential election than a transformation of the once-a-decade head count, which has been disrupted by the coronavirus pandemic.

[...] Since the first U.S. census in 1790, both U.S. citizens and noncitizens — regardless of immigration status — have been included in the country's official population counts.

The fifth sentence of the Constitution specifies that "persons" residing in the states should be counted every 10 years to determine each state's share of seats in the House of Representatives. The 14th Amendment, which ended the counting of an enslaved person as "three fifths" of a free person, goes further to require the counting of the "whole number of persons in each state."

It is Congress — not the president — that Article 1, Section 2 of the country's founding document empowers to carry out the "actual enumeration" of the country's population in "such manner as they shall by law direct."

In Title 2 of the U.S. Code, Congress detailed its instructions for the president to report to lawmakers the tally of the "whole number of persons" living in each state for the reapportionment of House seats. In Title 13, Congress established additional key dates for the "tabulation of total population."


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @09:56AM (31 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @09:56AM (#1025708)

    [go ahead and mod me off-topic if you feel like it. I'm not going to bother making the link explicit.]

    I am really annoyed when I hear someone declaring that they don't vote.
    whatever the reason, you're an idiot if you actively choose not to vote.

    you should vote, and you should vote for the choice you are happiest with, not with whoever you think is more likely to succeed.

    oh, there were 3 reasonable people, and an idiot, and the idiot got 27% and won?
    no problem, talk to the voters of the other reasonable people and compromise, then decide whether it's worth asking for a resignation from the idiot, or whether you can wait for four years.
    then vote for the people who will fix this problem with the voting system.

    oh, too many people are stupid and they won't vote for your choice?
    talk to them.
    if you can't convince them, it means democracy is working against you.
    at that point you have some serious issues that you need to solve (move to another country, try to break democracy, fight for better education, etc).

    but, if you choose not to vote, keep in mind that politicians can change the laws to a point where they can take away your freedom.
    afterwards taking as much money from you as they want is easy.
    if that's easier to understand.

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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by canopic jug on Friday July 24 2020, @10:38AM (11 children)

    by canopic jug (3949) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 24 2020, @10:38AM (#1025714) Journal

    Yes, it is essential that people go through the motions, but keep in mind how empty that is. It's been over 20 years since the US exit polls matched the alleged results for the elections. It's been almost as many since the US election process fulfilled the UN's requirements for open and fair elections. Mainstream media continues to spin it as the polls being wrong. Yet at the same time, every time it has been attempted, the individual US states have not been able to prove in any way, shape, or form the veracity of the alleged tallies from the election. So, since 1) the polls can be verified and 2) the election results have not been able to be verified, it looks much more like "irregularities" in managing the election despite the spin from the media.

    Last time around, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin were examined in detail. None of the three could reproduce the tallies they alleged were the bona fide results, not even the one state out of the three which had used paper ballots. That's how bad things stand. Throwing money at the problem alone won't fix it, but it can't be fixed without a lot of investment in cleaning out the current workflow. Moscow Mitch blocked that money last year back when there was still time to fix or ammeliorate the problem. Now it is way too late to do anything for this current cycle except watch the trainwreck.

    Then on top of that there is the outright fraud presented in the form of electronic "voting": https://www.defcon.org/images/defcon-26/DEF%20CON%2026%20voting%20village%20report.pdf [defcon.org]
    https://www.defcon.org/images/defcon-25/DEF%20CON%2025%20voting%20village%20report.pdf [defcon.org]
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-a-data-security-expert-fears-u-s-voting-will-be-hacked-11587747159 [wsj.com]
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/16/voting-security-crisis-q-a-1466704 [politico.com]

    --
    Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @01:01PM (10 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @01:01PM (#1025738)

      I always lie to the pollsters. Stop believing that their numbers are somehow more trustworthy than any other random stat you see anywhere else.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday July 24 2020, @01:19PM (9 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 24 2020, @01:19PM (#1025749) Journal

        Stop believing that their numbers are somehow more trustworthy than any other random stat you see anywhere else.

        Like actual vote tallies, for example?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @01:35PM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @01:35PM (#1025754)

          In case you were just born yesterday, there have been myriad problems with vote tabulation throughout history. High-tech has added new layers of potential problems, including "hacking".

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday July 24 2020, @02:39PM (3 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 24 2020, @02:39PM (#1025785) Journal
            I knew of those problems when I wrote my post. Perhaps you should reread it with that new information in mind.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @03:54PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @03:54PM (#1025817)

              You get 2 upmods sir.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @03:57PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @03:57PM (#1025818)

              Apologies- my post was meant for previous AC. Human error; corrections not allowed.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @06:19PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @06:19PM (#1025877)

              But, khallow was born yesterday, he's a Millenniall.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday July 25 2020, @05:33AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday July 25 2020, @05:33AM (#1026089) Journal
            Since several people seem to be having the same misconceptions, I'll point out that the "problems" above mean that exit polling may still be a more accurate estimate of the vote than the official tally of the vote. Even with people like the previous AC who claim they deliberately lie to polls.
          • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Sunday July 26 2020, @09:06AM (2 children)

            by Mykl (1112) on Sunday July 26 2020, @09:06AM (#1026503)

            there have been myriad problems with vote tabulation throughout history

            Oh, OK. I guess we don't need to worry about trying to fix it then.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @02:53PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @02:53PM (#1027116)

              No, by all means, keep on worrying. That approach has worked so well so far. Sorry for the sarcasm, but as far as I can tell society is full of problems that never get fixed. Do you have any suggestions for fixing the problem?

              • (Score: 2) by Mykl on Monday July 27 2020, @11:25PM

                by Mykl (1112) on Monday July 27 2020, @11:25PM (#1027387)

                Do you have any suggestions for fixing the problem?

                Yes.

                1. Get rid of electronic voting. It's proven to be too unreliable and non-verifiable. I know that irregularities predate it, but there are far worse irregularities with e-votes than without
                2. Stop getting private companies to supply most of the equipment and logistics for voting. This should be managed by an independent government body (like the Australian Electoral Commission)
                3. Have your independent body draw the electorate maps, not the incumbents. Remove Gerrymandering. This is what most western civilizations do
                4. Move your voting to weekends, where more people are able to make it to the polls, and more volunteers are able to assist with ensuring that voting runs smoothly
                5. Leave each state to determine what they want to do for state-level elections, but have one single consistent approach to voting across all states for Federal Elections (i.e. have the Federal Election run Federally!)

                These are a start. Going further, please improve the quality of the election process by introducing preferential or runoff voting.

  • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @11:05AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @11:05AM (#1025716)

    Don't vote for an incorrect candidate. Only vote for media approved candidates.

    • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:29PM

      by Opportunist (5545) on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:29PM (#1026230)

      I vote Cthulhu. It's time we stop voting for the lesser evil.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by rigrig on Friday July 24 2020, @11:06AM

    by rigrig (5129) Subscriber Badge <soylentnews@tubul.net> on Friday July 24 2020, @11:06AM (#1025717) Homepage

    I am really annoyed when I hear someone declaring that they don't vote.
    whatever the reason, you're an idiot if you actively choose not to vote

    Yes they are, so just look on the bright side: that's one less idiotic vote.

    I tend to encourage non-voters: "That's great, means my vote carries more weight!"

    vote for the people who will fix this problem with the voting system.

    That'll never happen, because the only people who can fix the voting system are the ones with a negative interest in fixing it, as it just got them elected. (Which might be framed as "It apparently isn't that broken after all, or we wouldn't have gotten elected")

    --
    No one remembers the singer.
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @01:30PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @01:30PM (#1025752)

    I am really annoyed when I hear someone declaring that they don't vote.
    whatever the reason, you're an idiot if you actively choose not to vote.

    I'm equally annoyed by people by people that proudly proclaim they voted D or R.

    Vote third party, people. It's not an if, but a certainty that your largest two "democratic" parties are working against you.

    So, if you choose to vote D or D, keep in mind that both parties have introduced laws that take away your freedom.
    So they're now in a position to take as much money from you as they want easily. If that's easier to understand.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @05:23PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @05:23PM (#1025862)

      This is a huge part of the problem.

      STOP voting D just because they are D, or voting R just because they are R. Vote for people, not parties.

      Voting for a party (either D or R) just lets the party believe they have your vote "locked up" and so they no longer have to try to sway you.

      And if none of the candidates are suitable, then write in "None of the above".

      If all the people who don't vote went to vote, and all wrote in "None of the above", it would send a huge message to both the D and the R sides that they are both screwing up royally.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2020, @01:08AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2020, @01:08AM (#1026380)

        Pretty amusing how desperate the narrative is to repeat 2016 levels of apathy and anger.

        Oh the US is angry all right, but apathy has been burned out by all the COVID fever and fascist flamethrowers.

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by ikanreed on Friday July 24 2020, @01:54PM (5 children)

    by ikanreed (3164) Subscriber Badge on Friday July 24 2020, @01:54PM (#1025763) Journal

    I do vote. I've voted in 15 elections so far. I'm not voting for either major party's presidential candidate, because some assholes think a fascist far right psycho in the other party means I they can justify a right wing rapist in their party.

    The pattern of "republicans do horrible shit, elect a democrat and it becomes the new normal" is gonna change this time, I also think you're naive. We've been aimed of a cliff that way since at least 1980, and frankly I'm tired of arguing over whether we should floor it or coast the rest of the way there.

    • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday July 25 2020, @12:55AM (4 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday July 25 2020, @12:55AM (#1026035) Journal

      At this point it's a bit academic, isn't it? Biden has my vote (and I may need to drink alcohol for the first time in over a decade to pull this off...) for the sheer, selfish, pragmatic reason that it may give me JUST that much more time to make my escape over the Canadian border the legal way, but IMO the US is a dead letter...

      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 25 2020, @06:19AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 25 2020, @06:19AM (#1026097)

        I hope you are saving up your money. Short of already having a job or having one of the skills/certifications/degrees on a special list, you're going to need some 5 figures in liquid assets.

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:12PM (2 children)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:12PM (#1026221) Journal

          I am, yes. It's damn near impossible but I'm doing it. And if it helps I'm a nationally-certified pharmacy tech in the US as of this February (actually I got a perfect 1600 on the qualifier...) so that should count for something...

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2020, @08:30PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2020, @08:30PM (#1026742)

            https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/express-entry/eligibility/federal-skilled-workers.html [canada.ca]

            I believe a pharmacy tech would qualify as a "B," but you'd have to check. Checking with an immigration attorney sooner rather than later would probably be helpful to set proper expectations and add direction to your actions.

            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday July 26 2020, @09:36PM

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday July 26 2020, @09:36PM (#1026783) Journal

              Sounds about right, yes...I've been on that site for a few months now trying to puzzle out what exactly will be needed. Looks like I need a police cert/identity check with fingerprints, medical exam, and a job offer, as there is no way in hell I'll have 13000 beaverbucks saved up by this time next year absent some small miracle.

              I'm moving to Buffalo (NY) in a few weeks, which makes the medical exam part easy as there's a qualified doctor in Kenmore, but will have to go to NYC for some of the other stuff. Oh well, it'll be nostalgic and a good excuse to see my mother and sister again :)

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by PaperNoodle on Friday July 24 2020, @02:03PM (1 child)

    by PaperNoodle (10908) on Friday July 24 2020, @02:03PM (#1025767)

    Whenever I talk to someone that wants me to vote, I like to say I will vote against them to see if they actually care about voting or if its really about voting "their way".

    Looks like Trump Train 2020. Where do I buy a MAGA hat? He looks like the law and order candidate while democrats are either falling asleep (Biden) or too busy shooting themselves in the foot (almost literally) to 'stand against Trump' (Portland, Chicago, Seattle, NYC, Milwaukee).

    So if you ask me, I'd rather not vote for the party that will allow their communities to burn because they lost an election. Never give in to a childs temper tantrum. Children need to learn that throwing a fit and burning down the house is not a way to handle being told "No". Parenting 101.

    Off to the polls!

    --
    B3
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @05:31PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @05:31PM (#1025866)

      So if you ask me, I'd rather not vote for the party that will allow their communities to burn because they lost an election. Never give in to a childs temper tantrum. Children need to learn that throwing a fit and burning down the house is not a way to handle being told "No". Parenting 101.

      And this is exactly what we have going on here at the moment. We have all the low to mid 20 somethings, the generation that was never told no their entire life, finally exiting mommy and daddy's cocoon and suddenly discovering that the real world:

      1. Often tells you: no;
      2. Does not give you a trophy just for showing up and sitting on the bench;
      3. Does not care whether you think you've been oppressed in the past
      4. Will only give you what you go out and earn for yourself
      5. etc.

      And the result is we have a whole generation of pansies now shouting and yelling in the streets because they've discovered that they have to actually make something of themselves rather than have everything handed to them on a silver platter, and they don't like it.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @02:51PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @02:51PM (#1025795)

    Hand your slave a plate of stale bread and a glass of water and they'll have you killed.
    Let the slave vote between the stale bread and the glass of water and they'll call you Mr. President.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @04:08PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @04:08PM (#1025820)

    What you miss is this...

    I'm really okay with whoever you guys want to vote into office. My faith is in the inherent justice of the universe - in that everybody will _ultimately_ get what they deserve.

    Sure I have an opinion, and most of the time it differs from the winning side. Never has my vote caused my side to win, so why waste the effort?

    If you guys of the voting majority opt us into corruption, oppression, tyranny, poverty, pollution or revolution, I will accompany you through it. It is more important to me that you learn from your mistakes than that I win. (And what exactly does anyone ever actually win in the final analysis, since in the long run we are all dead?)

    Moreover it may be that I am mistaken in my opinion. Usually I can argue both side. Take the "pro-choice"/"pro-life" debate. My opinion is like the Biblical endorsement of both sides when it gives the hint "Choose life". But why should others be forced to suffer the consequences of my deficient understanding?

    It is a mistake to believe that your opinion is never mistaken. Hence the "value" of a vote is moot.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @04:25PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 24 2020, @04:25PM (#1025829)

      Time heals all wounds, it also wounds all heels.

  • (Score: 2) by Opportunist on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:25PM (1 child)

    by Opportunist (5545) on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:25PM (#1026228)

    Ok, who should I vote for? The idiot that already proved without a doubt that he's a narcissist dimwit whose ego needs its own air force one, or the one that couldn't prove it yet but what I've seen so far from him doesn't exactly make me assume that he could find his own ass with both hands if he had an advisor guiding his hands.

    If you want me to choose, give me a choice FFS!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:29PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 25 2020, @07:29PM (#1026229)

      Kanye West?