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posted by martyb on Monday July 27 2020, @10:43AM   Printer-friendly
from the breathe-a-sigh-of-relief dept.

https://local12.com/news/investigates/new-treatment-promises-hope-during-pandemic-cincinnati-duane-pohlman-coronavirus-covid:

From Louisiana to Long Island, hyperbaric chambers, once used only to treat divers suffering from the bends, are increasingly being used to treat COVID-19 patients with surprising success.

While the numbers are small, doctors at more than a dozen hospitals across the country say hyperbaric oxygen therapy (HBOT) is saving the lives of even the most critically ill coronavirus patients.

"The results thus far are pretty impressive," Dr. Thomas Serena, founder and director of the SerenaGroup, a family of wound, hyperbaric and research companies, said in a recent interview.

At NYU Winthrop Hospital in Mineola, New York, Dr. Scott Gorenstein, the director of hyperbaric medicine, said, "I'm encouraged that hyperbaric oxygen could be a benefit."

[...] Their study compared 20 COVID-19 patients who received HBOT to 60 similar patients who did not. While their study is being peer-reviewed and has yet to be published, the results they shared are stunning.

Of the 60 patients who did NOT receive HBOT, half of them needed to be placed on ventilators and 13 died. That's a mortality rate of 22%. At the same time, the 20 patients who did receive HBOT, only two needed to be placed on ventilators and both died, which is a much lower mortality rate of 10%.

"It's small numbers," Dr. Lee noted in a cautious tone but added, "The findings suggest that hyperbaric oxygen could reduce the mortality of this disease by half."


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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:19PM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:19PM (#1027314)

    It has been proposed and tried here in Europe.

    Short summary:
    It looks good if and only if you dont understand a lot about hyperbaric therapy (and that surely includes most doctors!!!, although not these here) and the workings of the virus.
    It works for some patients, but it is highly doubtful whether it works better, or even as good as, a respirator. You cannot try bothe treatments on the same patients, and no study with big enough numbers has been done. All evidence is anecdotal.
    Most significantly, side-effects (a.k.a. severe lung damage) have been observed after the patient's corona infection has subsided. The corona is gone, but so is a third of the lung. It is unclear whether these effects could have been prevented by using a respirator instead of HBOT, but HBOT practitioners strongly suggest the damage is caused indirectly by the interplay between corona and high oxygen levels.
    It is very likely that the treatment choice between HBOT and respirator was not made free from other considerations ... perhaps the HBOT group would also have done much better on a respirator. Not only better than the control group, but perhaps even better than with HBOT.

    Putting it all together you get about an 80%-sure statement of "even if it might seem to work at first, you're actually making things worse with HBOT for many patients". It might work for a handful of patients with select conditions, but we have no idea what these are. And finding them ruins live people.

    Here in Europe, nobody is doing HBOT for corona. Not because we're too stupid to try (we did!), but for damned good reasons.

    The above article reads exactly like those we had over here, in February. I'm not altogether clear on why the quoted hyperbaric doctors are disregarding these results and doing it all over. Very likely to the detriment of their patients.
    (and I don't want to entertain the thought that immediately springs to mind)

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:29PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:29PM (#1027317)

    The number of patients in the study was small, as the doctors admit, but it is NOT true that there was no control group for comparison. While it's pretty hard to find an exact match of a treated patient to use as a control, they did their best.

    And you say that other studies showed patients surviving a bad COVID infection but with huge lung damage... you are assuming they would have lived without the hyperbaric treatment or some alternative treatment. How do you know that? You can't. It may be the price for surviving is some lung damage.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:05PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:05PM (#1027339)

      It may be the price, and it may be not. I personally cannot tell, see my other comment about my sources, so I will not argue the point.

      Fact is: HBOT was tried here. And then, after some trials, it was never heard of again. Presumably because it worked worse than the respirators, I'd think.

      Now, perhaps those two doctors found something new, and that would be great! But perhaps they're just repeating the mistakes already made once, then that would (on average) be to the detriment of their current patients, being treated with a known-worse method.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:14PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:14PM (#1027341)

        Well the problem is no one is telling anyone about the studies you refer to. We have no details at all. But there are multiple studies published claiming benefit that were published. This will be the third I know of.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:29PM (6 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:29PM (#1027320)

    Here in Europe, nobody is doing HBOT for corona. Not because we're too stupid to try (we did!), but for damned good reasons.

    The above article reads exactly like those we had over here, in February. I'm not altogether clear on why the quoted hyperbaric doctors are disregarding these results and doing it all over. Very likely to the detriment of their patients.
    (and I don't want to entertain the thought that immediately springs to mind)

    Can you share a link to these results? I have been following closely and have not heard about this, I doubt these doctors have heard it either.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:49PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:49PM (#1027327)

      Sorry, no, I can't link or quote.

      My knowledge is paraphrased from a talk+questions by a hyperbaric doctor who's following developments closely (he said then), although not a researcher himself. It is also a few months old by now. But the fact remains that hyperbaric chambers are back open for business, and that business is not covid19 (I visited one a short time ago). And it never was. I gather the Italians and Spanish would have used those chambers ... instead of letting people die from lack of ventilators ....

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:56PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @09:56PM (#1027333)

        Well, I don't think these results have been publicized at all then. Even in the news, so it is no surprise people have not heard about it. They should be encouraged to publish about their experience in some way, even if it is just a blog post somewhere.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:18PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:18PM (#1027345)

          Knowing the person giving the talk (no, I will absolutely not put the name in a public forum), he definitely had published sources on which he formed is publicly pronounced opinion.

          That you have not seen them may or may not constitute a statement about the absolute availability. It may also constitue a statement about your following of publications. Have you considered that the publications may be in other languages? I know for a fact that English, Spanish, German, and Polish are on the table for this one.

          And don't tell me that English is the one, true language. During a pandemic situation, a doctor surely could be forgiven to publish a quick notice only in his native tongue, instead of taking the time to do a reasonably good translation.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:47PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @10:47PM (#1027359)

            If you can find out I would be very interested to see these sources. I am sure the doctors involved in the OP study would like to see them as well. As you said, patients may be harmed due to lack of availability of these results so they should be widely shared and discussed.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @11:17PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2020, @11:17PM (#1027378)

              I might give it a try, but please don't get your hopes up at all (many reasons, none fit for publication here).

              Using the words "Covid19", "hyperbaric" and "diving" (important!) should, hopefully, set the right triggers for an email inquiry to the Landeskrankenhaus Innsbruck (general hospital in Innsbruck, Austria) to reach the correct person there. Once you have him/her, ask away, no need for "diving" anymore.

              Sorry for the roundabout way, but this still is the internet ... :-(
              If you are a medical professional, this should work out. If you are "just interested", it still may, but no guarantees.

              Hope that helps.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 28 2020, @01:45AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 28 2020, @01:45AM (#1027458)

                If you give them 2 liters of oxygen,the oxygen saturation gets a little better, but a few hours later many of them are in the intensive care unit with intubation and severe lung failure. Many colleagues have the feeling that the oxygen triggers a cascade. None of us know exactly what's going on here. It often looks scary. But let's not forget about 80% of the patients who put it all away as if it were nothing.as if it were nothing.as if it were nothing.

                One of the triggers for this interim report is a contribution by one of the world's most recognized divers / diving medical experts and grandsons of the scene, who claims that you can cure Corona if you treat people with HBO / pressure chamber therapy. This proves how far away those colleagues from the front are brooding at their desks thousands of miles from the patient and want only the best for us.

                https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wetnotes.eu%2Ftauchen-nach-covid-19-erkrankung%2F [google.com]

                I'm guessing you are talking about this. That sounds like he is talking about a problem with getting supplementary oxygen and assuming hbot will be the same.

                I've been saying for awhile that the oxygen should be increased gradually, or else you get a form of reverse altitude sickness or reperfusion injury. If the tissue is already adapted to low oxygen you should not suddenly increase it, just like you should not quickly descend a mountain either. I think this is another common medical error that is harming covid patients.

                HBOT practitioners already know to gradually increase the pressure though, so I think this is less likely in that case. But by the time they see these patients the damage may have already been done simply via the oxygen mask.