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posted by martyb on Thursday July 30 2020, @09:49AM   Printer-friendly
from the lockdowns-were-supposed-to-be-just-one-part-of-defense-at-depth dept.

Economists warn of 'widespread costs' from lockdown:

Blanket restrictions on economic activity should be lifted and replaced with measures targeted specifically at groups most at risk, say economists.

[...] They argue that while the extent to which the lockdown contributed to a subsequent slowing in the rate of new infections and deaths is not easy to estimate precisely, it seems clear that it did contribute to these public health objectives.

However, they say it is "very far from clear" whether keeping such tight restrictions in place for three months until the end of June when they began to be lifted was warranted, given the large costs. They say that the costs of carrying on with such a lockdown are likely to have become significantly greater than its benefits.

Debate over the global dilemma continues.


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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @02:23PM (52 children)

    If most of your tax base is unemployed, there is no tax money to socialize the cost with. And you really should wash statistics that have been in someone's ass.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    Starting Score:    1  point
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  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @02:33PM (17 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @02:33PM (#1028634)

    I guess it is a very select set of people who are carpetbombing the site with "Troll" mods in every place anyone honest would use "Disagree". When honesty thus becomes a disadvantage for everyone else, that does not support making sense in any discussion. Why bother when beloved "deplatforming" just works?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @02:46PM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @02:46PM (#1028649)

      It's okay, you can just include that in your original comment, Buzz.

      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:12PM (5 children)

        You wish. I don't hide what I think. Not about anything.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:01PM (4 children)

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:01PM (#1028780) Journal

          Well if ya gotta troll then troll. Just don't whine about it when you get modded appropriately.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:13PM (3 children)

            Wasn't me. I never post AC on the production servers. Not ever. And I have no other accounts on it.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:23PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:23PM (#1028793)

              Because absolutely anyone else in existence would disagree with modding absolutely anything you have ever said as "troll." You, quite literally, are the only person alive (or perhaps even dead) who would find that unfair.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:04PM (2 children)

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:04PM (#1028729) Journal

      Yes, it is childish, weak, and cowardly to silence opinions you don't like. Respond should always be the preferred response, and if you don't have the time or energy to do that, ignore.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:16PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:16PM (#1028968)

        Lol at the troll modfir the wrong think. This is the cancer that is killing the internet

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 31 2020, @01:43AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 31 2020, @01:43AM (#1029053)

          Here I thought it was 4chan and the associated trolling where Nazis are just "just a joke bruh" and racists are "just stating the facts bruh."

          Perhaps without the brigade of shitposters doing it for the lulz we would be able to maintain a decent level of dialogue. Also pay no mind to the foreign agitators using our tech platforms against us to spread bullshit that is eagerly swallowed by so many.

          But ayup, it is the "troll mofir the wrong think" which is the real problem :| Let us all bow to the brave AC, prop up their speech like it is the most valuable philosophical utterance in human history!!

    • (Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:11PM (6 children)

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:11PM (#1028737) Journal

      Maybe try making the point in a calm and logical manner without resorting to childish namecalling?

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:23PM (4 children)

        Can't. People would think someone had stolen my login cookie.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday July 31 2020, @12:41AM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday July 31 2020, @12:41AM (#1029037) Journal

          It was delicious. *urp*

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 31 2020, @02:09PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 31 2020, @02:09PM (#1029292)

          Maybe that is a sign that your normal discourse is... poor?

          Oh and I know people will complain about me being AC, that is just because I never bothered to make an account (either here or on the green site, in fact, the forced accounts were why I don't read the green site).

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:05AM (1 child)

            by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:05AM (#1031089) Homepage Journal

            No worries, we won't force you. We'll just use the ancient art of peer pressure. No, not that kind. The one where we round up a lot of Brit Lords and Ladies and pile them on top of you until you surrender.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:45AM

              by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:45AM (#1031117) Homepage Journal

              Wish I got invited to those sorts of parties...

              --
              If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:18PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:18PM (#1028971)

        Good tactics. Accuse those you disagree with of that which you yourself are guilty. Ive heard its worked out for awhile several times throughout history.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @02:55PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @02:55PM (#1028660)

    Statistics like: "Most of your tax base is unemployed?"

    To be "most" it must be at least 50% +1.

    So, douche away.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:31PM (2 children)

      That was a potential statistic, thus the "If", dumbass.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:51PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:51PM (#1028713)

        So, pulled out of your ass. Please wash it.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:32PM (#1028696)

      > Statistics like: "Most of your tax base is unemployed?"

      Definitions are important here. Who is the "tax base"? If it's "people between 18 and 66 years old", I think that USA has always been in this condition (maybe someone has data?). If we add in "able bodied people" to take off anyone disabled (for any of a huge number of reasons) maybe it's closer to half employed at the best of times?

  • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:12PM (27 children)

    by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:12PM (#1028677) Journal

    If most of your tax base is unemployed, there is no tax money to socialize the cost with.

    Then tax somebody else. Wall Street is doing great (thanks to the trillion dollars a month bailouts). It's about time those people start paying taxes on their unicorns.

    Let's create a progressive tax system, where upper incomes pay more taxes. They can afford it, fuck 'em!

    There's plenty of money circulating around in the rain forest canopy of high finance (more money than on all of main street), let's tax it!

    --
    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:15PM (26 children)

      Learn to English, man. I did not say most of the tax base is unemployed. We're definitely running full steam down the road to it though. Thus the "If".

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:30PM (25 children)

        by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:30PM (#1028694) Journal

        You are assuming a tax based on labor.

        Time to tax capital, and the people who have the most.

        --
        La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:33PM (23 children)

          Capital is labor.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:52PM (22 children)

            by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:52PM (#1028714) Journal

            No, capital is a bank note, profiting through usury

            --
            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:07PM (21 children)

              No, capital is labor. All of it. Always. It is labor that someone valued and gave you an abstract token for in lieu of a return good or service. It doesn't matter if it's pictures of dead presidents, Nuka Cola bottle caps, or lumps of gold.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:11PM (20 children)

                by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:11PM (#1028738) Journal

                Nope, they are mere promissory notes, derivatives, traded like baseball cards, nothing to do with labor at all.

                --
                La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @04:26PM (19 children)

                  All promissory notes, baseball cards, anything you trade for anything is a convenience abstraction of labor. You just dislike the truth because it interferes with you hating on people you want to hate on.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:01PM (16 children)

                    by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:01PM (#1028779) Journal

                    Their capital depends on forced labor, all those sweatshops and brickyards and fields around the world. Their economy runs entirely separately from the real working economy. You're just being a kiss ass to slave owners

                    --
                    La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:16PM (15 children)

                      No, I'm just not enough of a clueless idealist that I have to say fundamental realities are something other than what they really are to keep my faulty ideals from crumbling under their own bullshit quantity.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:32PM (14 children)

                        by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday July 30 2020, @05:32PM (#1028800) Journal

                        No, you're ignoring the fundamentals entirely, working from a singular personal point of view

                        --
                        La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:33PM (6 children)

                          No, I'm telling you the fundamentals. You're trying to bring in second or third order concepts because you don't want to be wrong.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:41PM (5 children)

                            by fustakrakich (6150) on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:41PM (#1029001) Journal

                            Nope, you just talk trash politics. You deal in symptoms, never addressing the root cause.

                            --
                            La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 31 2020, @01:46AM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 31 2020, @01:46AM (#1029057)

                              Slowly even the fusty troll sees through The Mighty Jackass.

                              High
                              fucking
                              larry
                              us

                            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 31 2020, @10:48AM (3 children)

                              What the fundamentals are is not influenced in any way by "the problem". Especially when "the problem" is a third or fourth order issue at the very least. They are and will forever remain the fundamentals. Understand them and your arguments will improve.

                              --
                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:43PM (6 children)

                          by PartTimeZombie (4827) on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:43PM (#1029005)

                          It seems to me that "capital is labor" is the kind of phrase people pick up when they tell themselves that everyone has the same opportunities, and if poor people picked themselves up by their bootstraps they would be rich too.

                          That fact that capital and labour have been in opposition since the industrial revolution began is ignored.

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 31 2020, @10:51AM (5 children)

                            Nah, it's just an actual understanding of what we're trading around. It doesn't dictate policy in any way. The understanding is as necessary for socialism or communism as it is for capitalism.

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday July 31 2020, @05:34PM (4 children)

                              by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday July 31 2020, @05:34PM (#1029386) Journal

                              what we're trading around.

                              What YOU are trading around. They live in a different world. They get their labor by coercion, military force if need be.

                              If labor were capital, the prices would match. Wages and pensions would keep up with inflation, but they don't because they see labor as a simple payable expense, not an investment.

                              --
                              La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                              • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday August 02 2020, @12:19PM (2 children)

                                by acid andy (1683) on Sunday August 02 2020, @12:19PM (#1030220) Homepage Journal

                                You're absolutely right. With an ever expanding global population wages become of function of the employees' desperation rather than any reflection of the profit that their work will generate.

                                --
                                If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:08AM (1 child)

                                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:08AM (#1031093) Homepage Journal

                                  That why world poverty is at historic lows, is it?

                                  --
                                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                  • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday August 04 2020, @06:22PM

                                    by acid andy (1683) on Tuesday August 04 2020, @06:22PM (#1031333) Homepage Journal

                                    AIUI, global absolute poverty has been decreasing largely because of greater levels of employment in developing countries like China. Just because some of those inhabitants of developing countries are earning more than they were in the past, doesn't mean those wages would appear fair to our western standards. Globalization is a race to the bottom, or, more precisely, a race to the middle, where western incomes deflate to eventually approach the rising incomes of the developing countries. I stand by my claim that it's increasingly a buyer's market for employers, particularly in the west, such that wages increasingly bear little relation to profits.

                                    --
                                    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:23AM

                                by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday August 04 2020, @03:23AM (#1031099) Homepage Journal

                                You're selling your services. If you don't like the price they're buying at, sell to someone else somewhere else. There are fifty states and nearly forty cities of at least half a million people in the US. I get what I think I'm worth relatively easily. I've done it in rural OK and I do it just as easily in rural TN. If you can't do it in a major city something is wrong with either your product or price.

                                --
                                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:27PM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @11:27PM (#1028982)

                    It seems to me that you are logically correct. However with things like hft the capital is abstracted out over a basically unlimited timespan with futures etc. Currency gets syphoned off without any actual capital being created or exchanged. This is why we need better market regulation and real legal borders for public companies, as our societal wealth is being cordoned off from people and accumulated in bank accounts. Imagine the wonders we could build if the markets did not tie up such a huge percentage of our productivity for the benefit of a few who cant even use the wealth they have amassed through a glitch in capitalism and market forces and regulations.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:37PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @03:37PM (#1028701)

          > Time to tax capital, and the people who have the most.

          If this happens, I see a surge in the mattress-cover business as well as the $100 bill-printing-business and precious-metals... as people squirrel away capital to keep it out of the stock markets and banks (where it can easily be measured).

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @07:44PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 30 2020, @07:44PM (#1028861)

    Sure there is, that's bonds exist and you can always tax the rich after things get back to normal to pay it back. These problems are not even remotely hard to solve, we have known solutions, it's just that we've allowed the rich to buy politicians to the point where they genuinely seem to believe that those that aren't rich deserve to starve to death as inferior stock.

    The reality here is if they'd have issued a $600 a week UBI to everybody in the country, it would have been less expensive than the half-measures they were taking to avoid helping those in need. A bunch of the money would come back to the government next year as part of the taxes and the remainder could come back in the form of increased taxes on the ultra-wealthy. We don't have a shortage of money with which to fight this crisis, we have a shortage of politicians that care about the people to do something about it.

    Or, perhaps cut government spending back to something sane. The defense spending only goes up over time, even though it is itself the largest threat to national security. It's been decades since we fought in a conflict where the other side hadn't previously been funded by the US government.

    Unfortunately,t here's a ton of ignorant people like you that seem to think otherwise.