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posted by martyb on Monday August 03 2020, @04:04AM   Printer-friendly
from the quantify-*this*-in-dollars dept.

COVID-19 long-term effects: People report ongoing fatigue, brain fog and breathlessness, so what's happening in the body?:

As with many aspects of the new coronavirus, researchers are trying to pull together data to understand the medium-term health effects more fully.

[...] Its impact on the heart still isn't clear, Dr Gallo says, but studies published in recent weeks describe abnormalities in the hearts of patients who have completely cleared the virus.

"[The researchers] asked them about their just general wellbeing and a lot of the patients are commenting on just being generally exhausted and having shortness of breath, some of them having palpitations, atypical chest pain," she says.

What's more, many of these patients weren't that sick with COVID-19 — most of them had managed their illness at home, rather than needing hospital treatment.

[...] Other persistent symptoms people report have to do with the brain: "brain fog", sleeplessness and headaches.'

[...]Fatigue, which is more than just a feeling of tiredness, and can be associated with things like a "foggy" brain, slowed reflexes and headaches, is usually a useful response to infections.

"There's a good reason for that — mounting an immune response to fight an infection takes a huge amount of energy," Dr Landowski says.

"The body wants you to do as little as possible, so you can conserve energy and divert it to the immune system.

Then, once the infection is eliminated, the fatigue dissipates.

"However, in some people, the switch that returns the body back to normal seems to fail, resulting in chronic fatigue."

[...] "Regardless of which cells it's infecting, if it's infecting cells in the brain, it could be causing damage, which could have long-term consequences," Dr Lawson said.

Even if the virus doesn't infect brain cells directly, inflammation caused by the virus could also cause damage to the brain.

Some experts are concerned the medium-term effects on the brain might have consequences that reach further.

In an article in the Journal of Alzheimers Disease Reports, experts raise the question of whether people who've had COVID-19, particularly those whose symptoms included loss of taste or smell, will be at greater risk of conditions including Alzheimer's disease after they recover.

The last-linked article from above (which is open-access), is excerpted here with links sprinkled on some of the unusual terms:

Some of the earliest neurologic findings were in those experiencing COVID-19-related anosmia and dysgeusia [2]. Important to this equation is that COVID-19 may prove to be a risk factor for future neurodegenerative disorders, beyond that which would be expected in the context of other comorbidities and genetic predispositions. Anosmia and the biological processes resulting in this symptom contribute to grey matter loss in cortical regions [3], which is similar to where pathognomonic amyloid plaques are often discovered [4]. Olfactory dysfunction has also been found to be associated with the graduation from mild cognitive impairment (MCI) to AD, serving as a potential identifier for preclinical stages [5].

[...] It has become clear that many age-related conditions are found among those testing positive for COVID-19, though some of these are also related to lifestyle and family history. ... Systolic hypertension in midlife, rather than only late life, is associated with 18% and 25% increased risk of AD, respectively ... These cardiovascular risk factors are directly related to cerebrovascular consequences, such as hypoperfusion, a symptom strongly associated with MCI and AD [14]. Plasma exchange and albumin for AD patients with hypoperfusion, for example, has been shown to improve cognitive deficits and initiate cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) amyloid-β (Aβ)...

Journal Reference:
Jack C. Lennon. Neurologic and Immunologic Complications of COVID-19: Potential Long-Term Risk Factors for AlzheimerΓÇÖs Disease [open], Journal of Alzheimer's Disease Reports (DOI: 10.3233/ADR-200190)

Got it! The millennials surviving COVID-19 today may have higher chances of an early onset of dementia than the baby boomers of today.


Original Submission

 
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  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:49AM (30 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:49AM (#1030597)

    We don't know, because it is now August and not a single publication on vitamin c levels or pharmacokinetics in covid patients has been published.

    This lady was already on a ventilator then got 11 g/day IV: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32709838/ [nih.gov]

    For other critically ill patients they generally need at least 2-3 grams per day IV:

    Overall, the critically ill patients exhibited hypovitaminosis C (i.e., < 23 μmol/L), with a mean plasma vitamin C concentration of 17.8 ± 8.7 μmol/L; of these, one-third had vitamin C deficiency (i.e., < 11 μmol/L). Patients with hypovitaminosis C had elevated inflammation (C-reactive protein levels; P < 0.05). The patients with septic shock had lower vitamin C concentrations and higher C-reactive protein concentrations than the non-septic patients (P < 0.05). Nearly 40% of the septic shock patients were deficient in vitamin C, compared with 25% of the non-septic patients. These low vitamin C levels were apparent despite receiving recommended intakes via enteral and/or parenteral nutritional therapy (mean 125 mg/d).

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29228951/ [nih.gov]

    Ten patients (50%) were vitamin-C deficient at baseline.

            [...]

            Our study confirms previous findings that intravenous doses of 2 to 3g/d are required to normalize vitamin-C plasma concentrations in critically ill patients . However, optimal plasma concentrations during overwhelming oxidative stress are not known, nor whether peaks are more effective than lower but stable plasma concentrations. Two recent studies using 100mg/kg/day and 6g/day as intermittent boluses in sepsis reported a reduction in mortality, but these findings as well as the dose-effect relationship need confirmation in larger randomized controlled trials15,16.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29522710/ [nih.gov]

    Our study implies vitamin C hypovitaminosis or deficiency are common in septic shock patients and that 6-hourly dosing at 1.5 g intravenous of vitamin C achieves and maintains normal or supranormal vitamin C levels in patients with septic shock. The observation of an increase in volume of distribution in the multiple dose cohort (39.9 L) compared with the first-dose cohort (23.3 L) implies either changes in volume of distribution secondary to fluid resuscitation or other septic shock-associated mechanisms such as changes in vascular permeability.42,43 The observation that clearance was reduced in the multidose cohort implies either loss of renal clearance due to worsening function or decreased vitamin C consumption, as treatment with antibiotics decreased oxidative stress.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31778629/ [nih.gov]

    Plasma vitamin C levels in all patients were subnormal at enrollment (< 28 μmol/L), with no significant difference between groups (median for vitamin C–infused patients vs placebo, 22 vs 22 μmol/L [interquartile range {IQR}, 8-39 vs 11-37]; P = .49). (To convert vitamin C to mg/dL, divide values by 56.78.) Plasma vitamin C levels sampled at trough periods before infusion had increased significantly in vitamin C–infused patients by hours 48 (median, 166 μmol/L; IQR, 88-376) and 96 (median, 169 μmol/L; IQR, 87-412) compared with placebo patients by hours 48 (median, 23 μmol/L; IQR, 9-37) and 96 (median, 26 μmol/L; IQR, 9-41) (Figure 3). At hour 168, plasma vitamin C level in placebo patients remained low (median, 29 μmol/L; IQR, 12-39). After cessation of vitamin C infusion at 96 hours, vitamin C levels declined but remained significantly elevated at hour 168 (median, 46 μmol/L; IQR, 19-66) compared with placebo

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2752063 [jamanetwork.com]

    Correctly timed baseline vitamin C levels were available for 22 patients in the treatment group; the mean level was 14.1 +/- 11.8 uM (normal, 40-60 uM), with no patient having a normal level.

    https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)62564-3/fulltext [chestnet.org]

    That is after a lot of oxidative damage has been done though. They were probably already deficient for quite awhile. Perhaps early on lower doses or higher oral doses would be sufficient.

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  • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:54AM (26 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:54AM (#1030601)

    Science is marked troll within seconds on this site. But obviously wrong BS that seems to be in favor of democrats is upmodded like crazy. I have tested this numerous times. I said there is an anti-biden bias in the media and it got upvoted, lol.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:23AM (25 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:23AM (#1030630)

      That's not science. Yet.
      You yourself admit "We don't know, because it is now August and not a single publication on vitamin c levels or pharmacokinetics in covid patients has been published."
      At least, kudos, it has low chances to do damage, but no indication if it helps.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:39AM (19 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:39AM (#1030635)

        Science uses reason and evidence to figure out general rules about how the universe works. Science tells us it is very unlikely covid patients are not deficient and require 10-1000x higher vitamin c consumption than healthy people to avoid that.

        I dont need to run a study on electric cars hitting people to know it will hurt them same as normal cars.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday August 03 2020, @12:54PM (18 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 03 2020, @12:54PM (#1030689) Journal

          Science tells us it is very unlikely covid patients are not deficient and require 10-1000x higher vitamin c consumption than healthy people to avoid that.

          Then where's the "reason and evidence"? What does an enormous uptake in vitamin c fix in covid patients?

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:00PM (15 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:00PM (#1030693)

            Do your own damn work, douchebutt.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 03 2020, @01:04PM (14 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 03 2020, @01:04PM (#1030696) Journal
              Just because you're far too lazy to back your words, doesn't make them right. I see instead indications of deep error.
              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday August 03 2020, @01:32PM (12 children)

                by RS3 (6367) on Monday August 03 2020, @01:32PM (#1030715)

                Thank you all for answering my question and a truly great discussion. You're all making great philosophical arguments, but my take on this discussion: large amounts of vitamin C are not likely to hurt most people, so why not try it.

                Khallow, if you don't want it, then don't, but that's not a strong enough reason to discourage others. If you can cite examples of vitamin C being a problem for some people, conditions, etc., then please let us know- I'd like to know.

                • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @02:21PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @02:21PM (#1030735)

                  Thank you all for answering my question and a truly great discussion. You're all making great philosophical arguments, but my take on this discussion: large amounts of vitamin C are not likely to hurt most people, so why not try it.

                  And smearing your entire body with honey or pancake syrup or washing your hair with your own urine are unlikely to harm you either. So why not try it?

                  Wearing a butt plug 18 hours a day won't likely hurt you either. And it will stop most explosive diarrhea too! Why not try it?

                  The links above [soylentnews.org] talk about *very* sick people, who are likely on IV nutrition or feeding tubes.

                  Taking massive doses of Vitamin C will ensure that you won't get scurvy [wikipedia.org], but it provides no known mitigation or positive impact on COVID-19.

                  But hey, as long as it won't hurt/kill you, why not?

                  Dancing naked in the street won't hurt you, nor will baking bread, writing poetry or having multiple milk enemas every day. So why not try them?

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:39AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:39AM (#1031063)

                    Dancing naked in the street won't hurt you

                    Pictures or it didn't happen.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @08:00PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @08:00PM (#1030907)

                  Kidney stones and expensive urine for two.

                • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Monday August 03 2020, @10:31PM (8 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 03 2020, @10:31PM (#1030963) Journal

                  If you can cite examples of vitamin C being a problem for some people, conditions, etc., then please let us know- I'd like to know.

                  Such as the original poster advocating dosing vitamin C to the point of overt toxicity? Inducing diarrhea in a well-developed covid infection is a problem, for example. And what are you getting for that extreme dosage (up to 1000x times normal dose!)? I just see some babble about free radicals. The human body isn't going to be rebuilding tissue 1000x faster nor will have 1000x more radicals to neutralize.

                  I tend to increase dosage of vitamin C when I get sick, because well I've heard it helps. But those levels are way beyond a mere increase.

                  • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:05AM (4 children)

                    by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:05AM (#1031051)

                    I'm sorry, my previous comment was posted in error, due to being rushed. I will always wish we could edit posts that were just plain mistakes. It was an accidental mashup, not intended for you. Again, sorry. Too much caffeine likely also.

                    Anyway, I absolutely agree with you. As I've posted before, and I guess I need to repeat many things every time I post, our body chemistries are all different, and what works well for one person and set of medical problems might be poison to another person. I'm never a fan of one-size-fits-all / sweeping generalizations. And certainly not a fan of anything done to toxicity! But I'm reminded- chemotherapy is toxicity by definition, and often works, so again, we're all different, diseases are different, and who knows, maybe in some people high-dose C could kill a disease faster than the host human?

                    People get so intense in these discussions. I'm still learning about this type of interaction- not sure why people get so bunched up. It'd be nice if people could just toss ideas around without all the vitriol. But I digress... Back to the local topic- C might be good, but don't take it in chalky pill form.

                    • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Sunday August 23 2020, @02:39AM (3 children)

                      by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 23 2020, @02:39AM (#1040626) Homepage Journal

                      Chemotherapy for cancer is very carefully managed toxicity. Not try an overdose and then cut back if you survive.

                      • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday August 23 2020, @03:26AM (2 children)

                        by RS3 (6367) on Sunday August 23 2020, @03:26AM (#1040640)

                        Absolutely. I think a lot of medicines are basically poison, but given in careful doses they do just enough good. Steroids come to mind. You've probably heard that people used to take strychnine for "what ails you". https://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/drugs/pharmacology/strychnine [encyclopedia.com]

                        Friend of mine's father had esophageal cancer, caught somewhat late, got chemo, was improving, but for some reason the doctors gave a big dose that killed him. He might not have recovered from the cancer no matter what, so it might have been a last-ditch effort.

                        There's a medical oncologist in my area that is extremely precise (he's Swiss), and who that treated my dad 8 years ago. Dad fully recovered and had no measurable chemo side effects.

                        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by hendrikboom on Sunday August 23 2020, @11:17AM (1 child)

                          by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 23 2020, @11:17AM (#1040740) Homepage Journal

                          My wife was a hematologist, who sometimes treated some kinds of cancer patients.
                          She told me that these toxins had to be dosed very accurately. A slight variation in dosage could make the difference between death, uselessness, or therapeutic effect. This required biochemical monitoring to adjust for the ways different patients would metabolize the toxins. The trick was to find a toxin that killed the cancer more than it harmed the patient. Even with the same kind of cancer, different patients would need different toxins.

                          High-tech medicine.

                          -- hendrik

                          • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Sunday August 23 2020, @11:43AM

                            by RS3 (6367) on Sunday August 23 2020, @11:43AM (#1040745)

                            Yes, the aforementioned Swiss oncologist is primarily hematologist. He insisted on weighing my dad, who could not walk nor stand at the time (but fully recovered a year later) and we had great difficulty getting him on a scale. Dr. didn't have the large scale for weighing wheelchairs, so we did our best and got him weighed. That Dr. wins best of (metropolitan area) awards by major local magazine.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @10:49AM (2 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2020, @10:49AM (#1031189)

                    The human body isn't going to be rebuilding tissue 1000x faster nor will have 1000x more radicals to neutralize.

                    For burn injury theyve given over 100 g/day vitamin c IV and seen the patient is deficient again within 2 days. Not going to bother linking it since you don't seem to have read any of the dozen refs already linked here.

                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:40PM (1 child)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 04 2020, @01:40PM (#1031224) Journal
                      Link or shut up. I'm tired of your games.
                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 04 2020, @08:48PM

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 04 2020, @08:48PM (#1031402) Journal
                        To elaborate on my post, earlier some AC dropped five links which purported to support his claim that extremely high dosage of vitamin C was helpful in recovering from covid. Of those five, one outright rejected the hypothesis and none of them had large sample size or dealt with virus infections - anything similar to a covid infection.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:35PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:35PM (#1030716)

                Their words are backed by the linked article.

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:18PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @03:18PM (#1030751)

            There are five papers linked already you can check. Sick and injured people are deficient in vitamin c because they suffer from higher levels of oxidative stress. Vitamin C is the terminal extracellular antioxidant. So when it is too low the tissue starts to pretty much dissolve. In the extreme case of deadly scurvy all your old scars pop open and tissues mush together, this is happening to a lesser extent for awhile leading up to that. We want to prevent it from happening.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC297842/ [nih.gov]

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday August 04 2020, @08:42PM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday August 04 2020, @08:42PM (#1031396) Journal
              I checked those papers and first, none of them address a virus infection, much less a covid-19 infection. Second, one paper [jamanetwork.com] - the one with the largest sample size - found no improvement in using elevated vitamin C over a placebo ("resulted in no significant differences in the modified Sequential Organ Failure Assessment score at 96 hours, or in levels of C-reactive protein and thrombomodulin at 168 hours."). The next biggest paper had the control and treatment groups at different times (certainly not a double blind experiment). That allows for the possibility that the treatment group was simply treated better than the control group.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:48AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:48AM (#1030639)

        Science! We are sciencing the shit out of the vitamin C! And the Zinc! And the arythmatic mice-in a jar. Not to mention the demon sperm. Hydroxychloroquawhatisyourfuckingproblem! Are you now, or have you ever been, a Republican? Too stupid to understand how Twitter and Tik-tok work? Think the President can move elections around or declare a national religion, or force Runaway to get all gay-married and socialized? The Hypochondria is already too much, but the right-wing paranoia is just too much. We are coming for you. We are already all around you. Do you hear that sound? The ringing in your ears? That is the sound of science, science you do not understand, but will hit you like a Runaway express train, with extra dumb sauce.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday August 03 2020, @07:51AM (1 child)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 03 2020, @07:51AM (#1030640) Journal

          or force Runaway to get all gay-married and socialized?

          I... don't know if I want to see this even just attempted.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday August 03 2020, @01:32PM

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday August 03 2020, @01:32PM (#1030714) Journal

            Well, I mean...he's got his head permanently up his own ass, so that might count as anal sex, and it's with a man (himself) soooo...?

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:02PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @01:02PM (#1030695)

          Vitamin C - what mainstream science won't tell you. Only those without a high school diploma can see through the conspiracy!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @06:14PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @06:14PM (#1030827)

            Vitamin C - what mainstream science won't tell you. Only those without a high school diploma can see through the conspiracy!

            Are you THAT sure every high school makes people unlearn plain arithmetics?
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Animal_synthesis_pathway [wikipedia.org]
            Here are the numbers. You are welcome to mod them Troll.

  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:59AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @05:59AM (#1030604)

    Patients with pneumonia had depleted vitamin C status compared with healthy controls (23 ± 14 µmol/L vs. 56 ± 24 µmol/L, p < 0.001). The more severe patients in the ICU had significantly lower vitamin C status than those recruited through AMAU (11 ± 3 µmol/L vs. 24 ± 14 µmol/L, p = 0.02). The pneumonia cohort comprised 62% with hypovitaminosis C and 22% with deficiency, compared with only 8% hypovitaminosis C and no cases of deficiency in the healthy controls. The pneumonia cohort also exhibited significantly elevated protein carbonyl concentrations compared with the healthy controls (p < 0.001), indicating enhanced oxidative stress in the patients. We were able to collect subsequent samples from 28% of the cohort (mean 2.7 ± 1.7 days; range 1–7 days). These showed no significant differences in vitamin C status or protein carbonyl concentrations compared with baseline values (p = 0.6). Overall, the depleted vitamin C status and elevated oxidative stress observed in the patients with pneumonia indicates an enhanced requirement for the vitamin during their illness. Therefore, these patients would likely benefit from additional vitamin C supplementation to restore their blood and tissue levels to optimal. This may decrease excessive oxidative stress and aid in their recovery.

    [...]

    Although the samples in our study were collected prior to the SARS-CoV-2 outbreak, it is likely that people with COVID-19-associated pneumonia and sepsis would have similarly low vitamin C status and high oxidative stress. Early case reports from the 1940s indicated that IV administration of gram doses of vitamin C to cases of viral pneumonia rapidly improved common symptoms [38]. There are currently a number of intervention trials up and running around the world that will specifically test IV vitamin C for COVID-19-related pneumonia and sepsis. Furthermore, it is likely that patients with other severe infectious conditions may also have low vitamin C status. This has been previously demonstrated in patients with tuberculosis, bacterial meningitis, tetanus and typhoid fever [12,13]. These patients would also likely benefit from additional vitamin C supplementation.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32384616/ [nih.gov]

    • (Score: 2) by Bot on Monday August 03 2020, @05:06PM

      by Bot (3902) on Monday August 03 2020, @05:06PM (#1030793) Journal

      The link parent posted checks out, in the full text you find the second part. Why has it been marked offtopic? Why nobody links the fatigue, brain fog and breathlessness to the mask + lockdown and insists only in considering the pathogen action of the virus? brain fog indeed.

      --
      Account abandoned.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:29AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 03 2020, @07:29AM (#1030634)

    Not even wrong