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[Editor's note: This is a follow-on to the story George Floyd Dead - Officers Fired and Charged - Discuss it Here that we ran on June 2, 2020. With 385 comments, it was the 5th-most-discussed story in the history of SoylentNews. All four of the officers involved were fired from the police force and are facing charges for the death.
New body-cam footage has come to light, exclusively on DailyMail.com. The two videos there fill in gaps from the previously-released footage.
In light of the interest when we first ran the story, the continuing "Black Lives Matter" protests, and the information this brings to light, I have decided to run this story.
NOTE: Each news organization has their own "take" on the killing. This coverage from DailyMail.com is no exception; read it with a heaping helping of the proverbial "grain of salt". It has been excerpted here without elision so as to not add any additional "spin".
WARNING: Please be aware the video content is disturbing; viewer discretion is advised. --martyb]
Submitted via IRC for SoyCow1234
Police Bodycam Footage Shows George Floyd Arrest In Detail:
WARNING: DISTURBING CONTENT. DailyMail.com has obtained video from the body cameras of two officers involved in the arrest of George Floyd that ultimately led to his death on May 25 in Minneapolis.
[...] Bodycam footage from two cops accused in the murder of George Floyd is revealed exclusively by DailyMail.com today — and it shows a rookie officer terrifying Floyd by pointing a handgun at his head and another callously picking a pebble from the squad car tire just inches from the dying man and seconds before he draws his last breath.
The tapes show in minute detail how a very distressed Floyd begs 'Mr. Officer, please don't shoot me. Please man,' before the struggle that ended with his death on May 25.
It also shows how belligerent cops cursed at and manhandled the sobbing suspect, ignoring his pleas for compassion.
Floyd resisted as the cops tried to force him into the back of the car, telling them he suffers from claustrophobia and anxiety and how Officer Derek Chauvin knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes, leading to his death, ignoring Floyd's repeated cries of 'I can't breathe.'
Floyd is even heard predicting his own death. 'I'll probably just die this way,' he says.
Transcripts from the videos were released in mid-July but a judge in Minneapolis had ruled the video could only be viewed in the courthouse, meaning few people have had the chance to watch the powerful images.
But the footage has now been leaked to DailyMail.com so the world can finally see the tragedy of Floyd's last minutes as the cops were mindless of Floyd's anguish.
The footage includes more than 18 minutes from Officer Alex Kueng's bodycam and 10 minutes from Officer Thomas Lane. They were the first two cops to arrive on the scene after a complaint that Floyd had attempted to pass a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes at Cup Foods, a store in the Powderhorn Park section of Minneapolis.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by looorg on Wednesday August 05 2020, @02:45PM (75 children)
I gather that everyone involved can find some tidbit to hold onto here. He is clearly agitated and not cooperating, handcuffs and putting him on the ground is reasonable procedure in that regard. His selective claustrophobia seems to be only kicking in when he is in police cars. Holding the gun on him is not an issue either considering that he was previously convicted of a violent crime. The language involved seem to be normal, cursing, sobbing and yelling from all parties. While an unfortunate outcome I still don't see murder1 here. But then I never did.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:02PM (38 children)
They need to downgrade Chauvin's murder charge to third-degree if they want it to stick. Or they will just get him on the second-degree manslaughter charge, as well as the tax evasion charges (insert Capone mugshot). The other three officers are going home free.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by looorg on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:12PM (29 children)
That would be my guess at the moment. There was no intent. There is no cop conspiracy to go out and kill. It just happened, it's unfortunate, they probably followed procedures (it might not have been the current once, but the once they were once taught) and then they clearly did it perhaps to long and to much. But a healthy person should probably have survived that. After handcuffing him and putting him on the ground they just can't step back cause nobody that gets cuffed and put down in his state is going to want to stay put so you have to make him stay there and controlling the area that they did they made sure he would stay down. It's hard to gauge how much pressure was applied -- as far as I know they didn't snap his neck or anything so it wasn't that that killed him.
That they found out that Chauvin and his (x-)wife had dodged taxes tho just adds to his, and her, misery.
I suspect the others will be free, or as free as you can be. It might still be problematic for them but at least they are not going to prison for it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ledow on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:24PM (13 children)
Tell me how you think a guy is going to get up from the floor face down while handcuffed and someone sitting on his legs? What actions here justified sitting on his head, in any way, that you couldn't do with a firm hand?
Plus, you have a gun. Put him on the floor, tell him to stay there, walk away and put your weapon at him.
It's unnecessary. Therefore, it shouldn't have happened.
Hell, I've seen a Cirque Du Soleil guy pick up another guy who was standing on the soles of his feet while he laid face-down and bent only at the knee. And I bet even he can't get up from being cuffed-backwards, face down, with someone pressing on the backs of his knee and another pushing him to the ground if he moved.
It's totally unnecessary, and neck-pressure is banned in almost every civilised police force in the world because of this - it's unnecessary and known to be deadly.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:15PM (11 children)
Hmmm. Good question. Maybe if he wasn't passing around brand new faux twenty dollar bills then maybe he'd be alive. Fuck everyone who glorifies thugs.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by janrinok on Wednesday August 05 2020, @06:06PM (7 children)
Did Floyd know it was a fake note? Has any evidence to prove that he knew that it was fake been provided yet? How do you know that it was the same note that Floyd offered to the store-keeper and not one that the store-keeper wanted to pass on so that he wouldn't be out of pocket? Were there any other fake notes in the till? Did anyone check?
There is a reason that we have a legal system, and an important part of that system is that people are presumed innocent until proven guilty, no matter what crimes he may have previously committed. He might be guilty as hell, but that is what the courts are for.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @06:54PM (6 children)
"Between 1997 and 2005, he was convicted of eight crimes; in 2009, he accepted a plea bargain for a 2007 aggravated robbery, serving four years in prison.". I guess there is a possibility that those were also committed by people that found him a convenient scapegoat to blame their own actions on...
There's too many people in the black community that have a lackadaisical attitude to crime / don't think further than the end of their nose to make a quick buck at someone else's expense and well-being. Near here, a cop got dragged through the dirt for shooting a black teenager making a run for it - who moments before had sprayed another man with gunfire riding in a jitney. Most normal thing in the world, having a cabbie take you to kill someone on the street, then ride back home. No word in the media about the victim there, who almost lost his life. When I hear "black lives matter", my heart is with the black victims of daily crime.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @07:25PM (5 children)
Did the cops have that information when they made the arrest? Show me the part in the video where someone announces Floyd's complete criminal history and the cops build a psychological profile of him before making the arrest.
All they knew was that he was some random black guy and they killed him over $20 they didn't even have proof he knew was fake.
This is just like the Erik Garner case - killing a guy for selling cigarettes illegally? Really? What's next, raiding the Girl Scouts' lemonade stands - but only if the girls are black?
The police absolutely should be going after the muggers, the rapists, the armed robbers, and the murderers. But lethal force for petty theft makes the police the villains. I don't care if George Floyd was a criminal mastermind that spent 6 million in forged currency, until he attacked someone he didn't deserve lethal force.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @11:45PM (1 child)
Moron... Girl Scouts doesn't allow blacks or wetbaX.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @03:24AM
They do hunt down shitheads when they get older and qualify for a huntress badge. I'd watch out the next time you buy some cookies if I were you.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Thursday August 06 2020, @01:00AM (2 children)
Unless they knew [newsone.com] otherwise.
One of the things missed here is that Chauvin might not only have had a motive for murdering Floyd, but planned it, say to remove from the picture an erratic person who threatened some illicit scheme the cops had going. That moves things from a random killing to first degree murder.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @01:43AM (1 child)
So a massive police conspiracy is more plausible then him dying by mistake due to stress, a heart condition and a large amount of drugs in his system and years of drug usage?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:05AM
Yes, because your explanation doesn't cover why Chauvin killed him. What exactly was Chauvin waiting for that took that long?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by martyb on Wednesday August 05 2020, @07:18PM (1 child)
I do not check every bill I receive in change. Quite frankly, I don't know anyone who does. Do not attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. He could easily have received it in change for a purchase he had made earlier.
Wit is intellect, dancing.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday August 06 2020, @03:07AM
At least twice my wife has ended up with fake 10's, in a country that switched to plastic money a few years back. So not only did she not notice, but likewise the cashier at the grocery store didn't. American money looks much easier to pass fakes of.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday August 06 2020, @12:42AM
So forging twenties is a death penalty offense punishable by summary execution without trial now? Go to Hell.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @09:59PM
You handcuff or ziptie his legs. Then you can release him, because even if he struggles he's not going to get away from 4 freely moving 150-300 pound cops.
Seriously, there was no reason to stand on his neck or chest past an initial 1-2 minutes to properly restrain him. Anything more should be enough evidence to get you discharged from your job as a cop for insufficient training, mental retardation, general incompetence, or willful malice.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by epitaxial on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:33PM (12 children)
Most cops are psychopaths. If you really do enjoy killing people it would be the right profession. There is a reason why cops have domestic violence rates several times higher than the average.
(Score: -1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @04:08PM (5 children)
The same thing could also be said of lesbians. [ncadv.org]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @06:07PM (2 children)
Last I checked lesbians aren't given a gun and a license to kill.
Only stupid fucks upmod your comment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @09:43PM (1 child)
I read somewhere that while male cops are generally queer-bashing homophobes, up to 50% of female cops are lesbians.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @11:58PM
I saw a video that corroborates your second statistic.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday August 06 2020, @12:44AM (1 child)
For what this is worth, I did suffer domestic abuse...at the hands of my *bisexual* ex. Current (and hopefully lifelong!) partner is as gold-star as I am and we've never even so much as had a shouting match.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 06 2020, @04:39AM
In other words, it reflects that such people can't rely on the protection of police and the law except in extreme cases of violence, something they have in common with domestic partners of police officers.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Wednesday August 05 2020, @06:25PM (4 children)
Most cops are psychopaths.
Not just cops. Most positions of authority are filled with psychopaths. To do the job, you gotta be one. Goes with the territory. Look at congress, sitting on billions (giving it to Wall Street) while people are being fired and evicted from their homes.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday August 06 2020, @06:03PM (3 children)
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday August 06 2020, @06:05PM
Oops. Not sure what went on with those quotes.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday August 06 2020, @06:36PM (1 child)
Authority just has to be held accountable. Gotta stand up to it. Submissiveness is a big part of the problem, but maybe that's to avoid being exterminated.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Friday August 07 2020, @08:56PM
I think perhaps the ultimate problem is that the psychopaths enjoy spending a lot of time destroying their opponents whereas almost all non-psychopaths find the full implications of standing up to corruption to be very exhausting and unpleasant. Perhaps there are just too many psychopaths and not enough altruistic non-psychopaths that are willing to dedicate their entire lives to that fight? It doesn't help that beating the psychopaths usually requires playing their own Machiavellian game--it's no coincidence that they're often brought down by other psychopaths.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @10:23PM
You forgot to link to your study.
Really? Generilizing like you are the only one right, sounds like you are just an asshole.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:44PM
Only cowards, sell outs and idiots pay the federal income tax.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @12:48AM
Therefore, somebody who doesn't survive asphyxiation is unhealthy. QED
I mean, anybody can study meditation and yoga, learn how to reduce their heart rate and oxygen consumption, and survive for hours without breathing. Anybody who needs to breathe more than once every ten minutes is a pussy. We will come for them, and the socialists, and the Mexicans, and the trannies, and once we purge the weak and inferior, we will Make America Great Again! Heil Trump!
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday August 05 2020, @08:02PM (7 children)
To my mind "8 minutes" argues against that. You don't need premeditation to have intent. OTOH, I really don't understand the "degrees of murder".
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @08:15PM (1 child)
It's common in the US. Taking California as an example:
CalPC §187
(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.
(b) This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:
(1) The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code .
(2) The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon's certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not.
(3) The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus.
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.
CalPC §188
(a) For purposes of Section 187 , malice may be express or implied.
(1) Malice is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention to unlawfully take away the life of a fellow creature.
(2) Malice is implied when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.
(3) Except as stated in subdivision (e) of Section 189 , in order to be convicted of murder, a principal in a crime shall act with malice aforethought. Malice shall not be imputed to a person based solely on his or her participation in a crime.
(b) If it is shown that the killing resulted from an intentional act with express or implied malice, as defined in subdivision (a), no other mental state need be shown to establish the mental state of malice aforethought. Neither an awareness of the obligation to act within the general body of laws regulating society nor acting despite that awareness is included within the definition of malice.
CalPC §189
(a) All murder that is perpetrated by means of a destructive device or explosive, a weapon of mass destruction, knowing use of ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, poison, lying in wait, torture, or by any other kind of willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or that is committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, arson, rape, carjacking, robbery, burglary, mayhem, kidnapping, train wrecking, or any act punishable under Section 206 , 286 , 288 , 288a , or 289 , or murder that is perpetrated by means of discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle, intentionally at another person outside of the vehicle with the intent to inflict death, is murder of the first degree.
(b) All other kinds of murders are of the second degree.
(c) As used in this section, the following definitions apply:
(1) “Destructive device” has the same meaning as in Section 16460 .
(2) “Explosive” has the same meaning as in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code .
(3) “Weapon of mass destruction” means any item defined in Section 11417 .
(d) To prove the killing was “deliberate and premeditated,” it is not necessary to prove the defendant maturely and meaningfully reflected upon the gravity of his or her act.
(e) A participant in the perpetration or attempted perpetration of a felony listed in subdivision (a) in which a death occurs is liable for murder only if one of the following is proven:
(1) The person was the actual killer.
(2) The person was not the actual killer, but, with the intent to kill, aided, abetted, counseled, commanded, induced, solicited, requested, or assisted the actual killer in the commission of murder in the first degree.
(3) The person was a major participant in the underlying felony and acted with reckless indifference to human life, as described in subdivision (d) of Section 190.2 .
(f) Subdivision (e) does not apply to a defendant when the victim is a peace officer who was killed while in the course of his or her duties, where the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the victim was a peace officer engaged in the performance of his or her duties.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @09:41PM
Laws are always so explicit, and conditional, you can really see how each clause is edited contnuously to close loopholes. Never studied it but can imahine murder1 started with a really short sentence like “killed a person with aforethought”.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday August 06 2020, @03:22AM (4 children)
Generally, murder is purposely killing someone. 1st degree is when you plan it and 2nd degree is when it is impulsive with manslaughter when you didn't mean to kill, just a good beating or such. As I said, that's a generalization, here the last government expanded 1st degree to include any killing of a cop, guard and such. I'd never heard of 3rd degree until this case.
Usually 1st degree is considered a worse crime then 2nd etc and comes with a harsher sentence.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday August 06 2020, @01:55PM (1 child)
Well, this doesn't look premeditated, but it does look intentional. So by that definition I'd guess 2nd degree fits best. But calling something that extended over 8 minutes impulsive seems to be understating the seriousness.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:43PM
Well, Khallow claims to have seen evidence that they worked together in a bar and Floyd got really nervous when it appeared the cops were going to take him to where there were no witnesses, so possibly pre-mediatated but sure hard to prove and charges are usually based on what there is a good chance of successfully prosecuting.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:49PM (1 child)
3rd is when you kill someone while committing another felony, you don't need intent to kill, just intent to commit the other felony.
(Score: 2) by dry on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:57PM
Thanks, makes sense.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by ledow on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:08PM (32 children)
Seriously, go live for a damn moment in a civilised country.
Pulling the gun would literally put officers in jail in many countries - there's absolutely no need for it, right at the start, before the guy even knows there's anyone there.
And if you can't cope - with 2 and then 4 officers - with someone *resisting*, not attacking or running or anything else, but just resisting, without having to put a knee on their neck then you have no place in a modern police force ANYWHERE.
He's on the floor, he's in cuffs, you have guns, he's literally zero threat to you.
To then persist in a hold that most countries have banned for exactly his reason - it kills people, and that's not a cops job - while the guy slowly stops talking and breathing, without doing ANYTHING about it? Yeah, that's manslaughter at best, murder in any reasonable court.
I live in what keeps getting accused of being a "police state" (the UK), and this would see any officer up before courts on such charges. It's just not acceptable. They have a duty to make sure he's safe, and they can do that without a knee on the neck.
That the other officers don't SPOT THAT (it's easy to do things in the heat of the moment, we get that), and get him to ease up, change position, or just say "Hey, grab his legs a second" or something to make them move (without being accusatory in a public place)? It means they were complicit.
They had zero care for their prisoner, and one of them literally killed him when he wasn't a threat and would have survived perfectly fine if not for the officers actions.
Those actions were done deliberately, and knowingly, and never eased until he was dead, and no care taken to check he was okay.
It's murder. It's unquestionable. If you don't get that, you don't live in a very civilised society.
And there was absolutely no justification for it. He was a bit screwy and resistive, but his overall demeanour was actually quite calm. He wasn't lashing out - the police have to deal with a thousand times worse every day, and they can't just crush someone's throat to do that even then.
From the second I saw the gun, I was cringing for the poor guy.
In the UK, or just about any other developed country, he'd still be alive because we literally don't allow arrests like that, and the cops would have been suspended and on charges if they'd done that to him.
(Score: 3, Touché) by ledow on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:11PM
It's similarly The Daily Mail (so ignore the narrative, it's tabloid trash), but this is how you do it:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5093857/Off-duty-police-officer-arrests-aggressive-driver.html [dailymail.co.uk]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:52PM
As it should.
I disagree, the officer in question clearly has a small dick - if not physically then mentally, the gun is his confidence-crutch. He should never be allowed on active street duty if he feels the need to threaten deadly force during situations like the one in question, but that's a problem we have in our system: not enough "real men" in the police.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by sjames on Wednesday August 05 2020, @04:03PM (1 child)
Backing your point, during the protests, I saw video of another arrest. The officer similarly placed his knee on the suspect's neck and his partner yelled "MOVE YOUR KNEE". The officer then moved his knee to the suspect's lower back.
Personally, I find 'resisting arrest' to be a bit overblown. Grab anyone for any reason and try to throw them into the back of a car and they will probably resist to some degree, especially if you're yelling. It's millions of years of evolution in action.
Floyd was no angel and best evidence suggests he had committed a crime, so arrest was justified. But his crime didn't carry the death penalty. He put up some resistance, and that called for meeting force with force, but he didn't put up anything like lethal resistance and again, the penalty is not death. In no case is summary execution permitted in the U.S.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:52AM
Clearly you've never been to Louisiana - RWB: Resisting While Black, that's all they need.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Troll) by looorg on Wednesday August 05 2020, @04:13PM (12 children)
I do live in a civilized European country.
No they wouldn't. Stop making things up just cause you have an issue with authority and the police.
Also don't apply UK law enforcement techniques to other nations, it's not the same. Holding a gun at someone for nine minutes is a long time and I would be more afraid of that then being held down. There is way to many things that can happen then, one sudden move on his part and they might have shot him instead. This was way safer in that regard since they didn't know he was going to die on them.
There is a reason that they restrained him, it's for their safety and for his own safety. Controlling a person is just easiest done at neck level and according to the coroner it's not what actually killed him -- where do you even get this crushed throat idea from? The amount of people that have been subdued in the same fashion is massive and they have not died. That he died from it is a statistical outlier that they could not have accounted for.
Antsy people, people with mental issues and people on drugs do the craziest things you ever seen sometimes. You control them via force for your safety and their own safety. There is no intent to murder anyone how hard is that to understand?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:26PM (2 children)
For his own safety, you say? Yet somehow he ended up dead, not safe. If the officer didn't have murderous intent, that is at the least incredibly incompetent policing. They already had him restrained. He was cuffed, on the ground, and outnumbered 4 to 1. Police are supposed to know how to restrain someone without doing them unnecessary harm.
But I think the officer did have murderous intent. Perhaps you don't know that police in America have a long history of racism? That racist groups such as the KKK encourage their members to become police officers, so that they can abuse the power to practice their racism with greater effect? There is even a name for the kind of cop who puts racism ahead of duty, who is a KKK member 1st and a public servant 2nd: ghostskin.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by looorg on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:40PM (1 child)
They do know and they applied that, his death seems to mostly been attributed to other medical conditions according to the coroner. Which they couldnt know about.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Thursday August 06 2020, @06:23PM
If someone's repeatedly pleading that they cannot breathe then even if that alone wouldn't directly kill them, it should be obvious that they are undergoing extreme amounts of stress and / or panic which carries a significant risk of death in many individuals. If they didn't know his medical history then they should act cautiously and not assume that he would survive it. Prolonged pressure on the neck was unnecessary, dangerous and wrong.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 06 2020, @04:54AM (8 children)
Keep in mind conflict of interest. The coroner had strong incentive to be less than truthful with the cause of death. An independent autopsy claims [eonline.com] that Floyd died of asphyxiation. Note from the link that the independent autopsy was released first. They only released the coroner's autopsy in response, hours later. Plenty of time to tailor the message to reduce liability for the death.
They had four people on the scene, ready to control Floyd. There's no excuse for this alleged "easy" way. And what was the point of holding Floyd to the ground for 9 minutes anyway? They have nothing better to do that night?
Unless, of course, they intended to kill him. Kneeling on Floyd's neck for nine minutes is much easier to explain, if they were trying to kill him rather than merely "control" him.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Thursday August 06 2020, @12:21PM (7 children)
Is this the independent autopsy that was ordered by his family and friends? Doesn't it sort of then fall for the same reasons and conflicts of interest? It's not like they are without an agenda. Just cause they released it first doesn't mean the real autopsy wasn't done and filed. But it's a nice backstory for a conspiracy. So if anything all this "independent" autopsy did was to really muddy the water.
They could have done other things but it wouldn't have been procedure and the image of the situation would have been just as bad or worse. Then we would have images of 2-4 police officers piling on top of him or holding him down. You would have had the same screams of police brutality and outrage as there would have been images of four officers holding him down to the ground. The same as if they had put pressure on him somewhat lower down, it's not like the neck is the only point, then they would be mad cause the police had their foot on his back -- and he could have died from that to. So there is just no pleasing the crowd, or mob, here really.
I gather that they where waiting for the ambulance that they had summoned. As noted previously people that get put on the ground usually doesn't want to stay on the ground, certainly not when they are on drugs and agitated like he was.
While I can't rule that out I'm not a big fan of conspiracies. Unless it can be proven I would dismiss this whole killer-cop-theory. But under normal circumstances he, or anyone, isn't supposed to die from that. They would have had to know all about his underlying medical conditions, his drug abuse etc. So the conspiracy grows.
If they wanted to kill him one gathers there would have been easier ways to do it, away from the public eye or just when in his agitated and aggressive state they could have created a scenario where they had to use their guns and shot him.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 06 2020, @01:48PM (3 children)
Or maybe it was the original autopsy that did that. Both autopsies were real autopsies, BTW.
It wasn't procedure in the first place. What happened to the procedure of handcuff Floyd, stuff him in the back of a cruiser, and then deliver him to a local police precinct for processing.
He was dead when the ambulance arrived, not agitated. Something is wrong with your narrative.
Unless, of course, Floyd was supposed to die from that. Then it doesn't matter if he had underlying medical conditions or not before dying of asphyxiation. There is this unwarranted assumption that these were normal conditions.
In front of video cameras?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by looorg on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:21PM (1 child)
I'm not saying their autopsy wasn't real. I'm saying it's not the official autopsy, which is really the only one that matters. It's not a first to leak/release that becomes the first or the official one. I note here that you skate on the issue of that the family (or independent) autopsy might also be flawed. So it's only the one made for the police that is bad and manipulated to suit some agenda?
Since he complained about breathing problems they had to summon an ambulance. So they had to wait for that. If he had just said nothing, been cuffed, said nothing again when put in the police car and being taken to the station he would most likely still be alive and this wouldn't have been an issue at all. They didn't summon the ambulance cause they liked to, or is this part of your conspiracy to -- summon the ambulance to give them time to slowly asphyxiate him? They did summon it cause he complained about health issues. So they did indeed follow procedure. Just cause you summon the ambulance doesn't mean it instantly teleports onto the scene. This isn't sci-fi. While waiting for it to arrive they have to control him and the scene. Nothing weird with that.
Unless you can prove it wasn't then yes it was normal circumstances and conditions. But once again you believe there is some kind of conspiracy to murder him. The evidence for that seems thin at best. If they knew each other why didn't they call each other by name? If they (whomever they are in your conspiracy) had wanted him to die he could have just waited and let all the fentanyl take him. But apparently there was some kind of rush to murder him on the spot, for some unknown reason.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday August 07 2020, @05:01AM
They didn't have to kill Floyd while they were waiting. It's not standard procedure to hope your perp doesn't have a medical condition after calling an ambulance for it. If it was serious enough a concern to disrupt the arrest procedures to wait for an ambulance, it was a serious enough concern to modify how they controlled Floyd while they waited for that ambulance. Nor as repeatedly has been noted was that "control" any sort of proper procedure.
Chauvin will likely be facing a decade or more in jail and he will deserve that for callous disregard for human life.
The obvious rebuttal is that the death of Floyd proves circumstances and conditions were abnormal. It's possible for that abnormality to occur in a way that absolves involved police officers. But that's not the case here. We have
That is quite the rub, isn't it? My scenario would explain why. Because if they showed that they knew each other - in front of a video phone, then Chauvin and the other officers on the scene might get caught.
You clearly can't think about this, instead making dumbass assertions about procedure, "control", and normality, so I think we're about at the end of this discussion. To summarize my side, Chauvin killed a man which he could have easily saved merely by changing how he pinned Floyd to the ground. He wasn't following procedure with this dangerous hold. And there's been a vast amount of excuse making and victim-blaming - speaking of Floyd's alleged medical conditions, drug use, and mental state (the blanket excuse of "excited delirium"). Even in absence of any proof of intent to kill, we still have second degree murder.
But as I repeatedly point out, a reasonable explanation for Chauvin's actions is that he intended to kill Floyd, because Floyd was a dangerous loose cannon.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @05:29PM
He hasn't seen the video. Most probably because he is afraid he will be proven wrong, 100% because his political affiliations require him to disagree with facts.
To expand, I not commenting on politics but rather how cults work. His behavior is pretty much how people are suckered into being a scientologist.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:08PM (2 children)
Similarly, "underlying medical conditions" ignores that a lot of people, perhaps even most people, have them. Genuine procedure would already take that into account rather than assume everyone is in perfect health.
On a final point, the ambulance arrived six minutes [nypost.com] after it was called. Allegedly, Floyd was still breathing at the time - which I admit casts strong doubt on a first degree murder case. Given how fast they hustled him to the hospital, there wouldn't have been much time to conspire to cover it up.
That same link observes this:
What's the procedure for someone who receives 10 prior conduct complaints, hmmm? Given how blatantly Chauvin killed Floyd, it sounds like Chauvin wasn't expecting disciplinary action any time soon, no matter what he did.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by looorg on Thursday August 06 2020, @02:31PM (1 child)
A complaint is not the same thing as something wrong actually happened or took place. It's not uncommon for people to file complaints against officers just cause they can or they somehow feel slighted about something in regards to their arrests. That is not to say that some of the complaints can't be true. But if it's over a 19 year period getting a complaint every other year isn't that much. Over that time period they would also have been investigated and since he never faced any disciplinary actions those complaints were considered to be unfounded. Not necessarily evidence of a coverup of any kind.
A lot of the things that happened after the incident seem to be somewhat odd. I don't think anything at the scene was out of order tho. That they change the charges afterwards could just be a matter of new information being available. It is not exactly unheard of or something that doesn't happen in other cases to.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday August 07 2020, @04:10AM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:00PM (5 children)
It's murder. It's unquestionable. If you don't get that, you don't live in a very civilised society.
This is the part Americans just can't admit to themselves: we don't live in a very civilized society. It's really much more akin to Brazil or Russia or Mexico.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:13PM (1 child)
Apparently in democrat states and cities it's uncivilized.
In my state, it's very much on par with anywhere in Europe. Lots of guns too. Low crime. etc.
I am not sure what I need to admit to for something happening in other parts of the country.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 07 2020, @03:20AM
Mmhmmm, your crimes are just domestic abuse and hate crimes that go unreported since minorities are more terrified of the police than the racist neighbors next door. Sad that some Americans are so completely out of touch with anything beyond their personal bubble.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:24PM (2 children)
Says the guy who shares an alias with a Scandinavian murderer/arsonist/white supremacist black metal musician.
America is just so uncivilized.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @10:05PM
Given his username I was sure he was one of those aces you tried to shoot down in every Wing Commander Game from 1 to IV.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @05:02PM
You never read LotR? Grishnakh is one of my favorite unique orcs in Angband.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:16PM
In those countries, the possession of firearms is strictly regulated leading to the police not needing to pull guns on suspects this early.The reality is that in the US, most felony arrest warrants are served at traffic stops and the cops doing the stop have limited visibility of what's going on in the car.
There's nothing inherently wrong with what happened prior to him being removed from his car. It's after he was removed from his car that led to the death and subsequent charges. Realistically though, he could have lessened the likelihood of being removed from his car had he just followed the lawful orders he had been given. I've seen the bodycam video from before he was removed and he was definitely not cooperating with the orders he was given. But, you'll see black people lying about that based upon the same video that shows him arguing and refusing to comply.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by darkfeline on Wednesday August 05 2020, @06:42PM (7 children)
>He's on the floor, he's in cuffs, you have guns, he's literally zero threat to you.
This was a 6'6" ~222 pound dude and a standout athlete. It took four cops just to attempt to put him in the police car. He was clearly agitated, under the effects of at least one substance, and physically resisting. He was exhibiting symptoms of excited delirium, and everything the officers did was according to protocol to protect both themselves, George, and bystanders.
https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911 [medium.com]
If you think putting a guy on the floor with cuffs and handguns will protect you, I hope you'll never be anywhere near a situation where you'd learn how wrong you are.
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(Score: 5, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday August 05 2020, @09:54PM (6 children)
Just so you're aware, "excited delirium" is not an actual medical condition. It is something that is used by the police and their apologists to explain away deaths in custody.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday August 06 2020, @12:46AM (1 child)
"Excited delirium" is to the 21st century what "drapetomania" was to the early and mid 19th.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday August 06 2020, @01:00AM
I had to look up drapetomania, and noted that: "Cartwright's article was widely mocked and satirized in the northern United States." which is good.
"Excited delirium" is, as you noted almost exactly the same.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday August 06 2020, @03:34AM (3 children)
No shit, excited delirium is a set of symptoms, much like how vomiting isn't a medical condition but rather a symptom for a medical condition. In this case, excited delirium was a symptom for extreme drug overdose.
Call it whatever you want, but erratic drug-induced behavior poses a real and serious threat to everyone involved. "Excited delirium" (in scare quotes just for you) is an attempt to standardize the diagnosis.
Also, keep in mind that EMTs and police don't have the luxury of treating specific drug overdoses or mental conditions from the comfort of a medical facility. When you're in the field and there's a person who is potentially a threat to themselves and others, you solve that problem first and then get the guy/girl to a hospital ASAP. That problem we have decided to call "Excited delirium". We can call it "happy limb flinging dance" if that pleases you.
I see three options here:
1. Allow cops free reign whenever people behave erratically, letting the definition of "erratic" be fully subjective.
2. Define a rubric for "excited delirium" state, for which cops should act to restrain the people and minimize damage (we are here).
3. Force cops to treat people behaving erratically like normal people, and shrug if it results in collateral damage (alternatively, blame the cops for "not handling it correctly" because cops have the requisite medical training to do so, obviously). It sounds like you're here.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @05:30AM
There is another option:
4. Defund the police to eliminate racism and crime once and for all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 06 2020, @03:26PM
How does any of that imply the correct way to handle it is to prevent the suspect from breathing? "Happy limb flinging dance" my arse. The apologetics keep getting more and more ridiculous.
#4 defund the police keeps coming out as the best alternative.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday August 07 2020, @05:09AM
As Azuma Hazuki noted, drapetomania also is a set of symptoms.
By killing Floyd. The problem wasn't being solved first.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @03:45PM
Why did they take him out of the car again once he was secured inside? They should have taken the least amount of time to take him to jail and pass responsibility for him.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by khallow on Wednesday August 05 2020, @05:58PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2020, @09:00PM
Well then you're just a fucking dumbass. What else needs to be said?
When you have somebody on the ground, in cuffs, being held by two people, there is zero justification for literally sitting on his neck DIRECTLY contributing to his death.
Last I checked, that was fucking murder. Sitting there nonchalantly with your hands in your pocket while you're doing it? You really cannot see murder here?
This wasn't accidental. Nothing Mr. Floyd did prior to this, is justification for what happened to him.