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posted by LaminatorX on Friday April 24 2015, @02:23PM   Printer-friendly
from the useful-progress dept.

It's election season in the UK, and the Green Party's policy document has been coming under scrutiny recently. In it is a desire to reduce copyright term to 14 years (not life + 14 years, but 14 years from publication).

Unsurprisingly, this has received a bit of a backlash from various parties.

There's no chance the Green Party will form the next government, so this is all academic, but is this a sensible idea? Are people overreacting?

 
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  • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday April 25 2015, @11:14PM

    by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Saturday April 25 2015, @11:14PM (#175189) Homepage Journal

    In the digital age, music is just a form of information, and information is an infinite commodity. It's just an idea or an expression which has no physical form, so it's infinitely replicable.

    Not just infinitely replicable, but infinitely replicable at zero cost. That's what has changed. Producing and stamping an LP was an expensive proposition. Printing a book still is.

    The whole notion of copyright is to take something infinitely replicable and create an artificial scarcity.

    No, it isn't. Copyrights are to encourage creative people to create. Without copyright, NOBODY is going to buy your manuscript because if they can get their hands on a copy it's theirs, and even creative people have to eat.

    The young USA learned the hard way. At first, foreign works were in the public domain in the US, so American authors simply couldn't get published, since all the British works were free for the publishers.

    A viable system should instead compensate artists before they release their work. Fans could instead pay artists to produce their work (ie. prior to when it is made or released) to incentivise and sustain the artists.

    I don't buy records from a band I've never heard before, and I don't buy books from authors I've never read before. Do you? If so, IMO you're really weird and not very smart. How is a young musician or author supposed to get noticed under such a system?

    So why shouldn't artists follow the same model? Well, this is the MAFIAA we're talking about.

    That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about independent artists, musicians, songwriters, and authors. Notice you never see an indie artist suing for "piracy"?

    The only viable model is being strangled by the MAFIAA's greed. Back when Napster was in full force, the RIAA cokeheads thought nobody would buy CDs any more since you could download an MP3, and besides that they saw a way to get money for absolutely nothing (typical cokehead) and started "selling" MP3s. Had they not been so greedy as to slicing up the golden goose, they should have touted the advantages of physical media and used digital as advertising.

    --
    mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
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  • (Score: 2) by hash14 on Sunday April 26 2015, @06:54AM

    by hash14 (1102) on Sunday April 26 2015, @06:54AM (#175288)

    Not just infinitely replicable, but infinitely replicable at zero cost. That's what has changed. Producing and stamping an LP was an expensive proposition. Printing a book still is.

    Reproducing a book in a digital form is also zero cost. I suppose that's a finer point that I've been overlooking. There is a cost in recording the digital format (whether it's an audio, image, video, text, or other type of file). But once it has been digitized, the replicability is zero cost.

    The whole notion of copyright is to take something infinitely replicable and create an artificial scarcity.

    No, it isn't. Copyrights are to encourage creative people to create. Without copyright, NOBODY is going to buy your manuscript because if they can get their hands on a copy it's theirs, and even creative people have to eat.

    Not true if you compensate them before the cost has been eliminated.

    The young USA learned the hard way. At first, foreign works were in the public domain in the US, so American authors simply couldn't get published, since all the British works were free for the publishers.

    I don't fully understand what this is supposed to demonstrate beyond the fact that unequal treatment makes it harder for one group to compete against another. If anything, this almost seems like a tariff favouring British authors over American ones. Besides, people get tired of old works after a while and want new ones which are more contemporary as well. So I don't think artists would have to compete too hard against their previous works if they were all in the public domain.

    And I can also tell you that it works the other way too. Why did the US have such explosive growth in the industrial revolution? The water-powered mill wasn't developed or patented in the US, but they did manage to utilize it for some pretty massive growth. I think this is a strong argument of the progress that can be achieved when we remove artificial legal barriers. How might we extend it to copyright? Well, artists could remix music freely (currently, that's a very dangerous thing to do because proving fair use in a court is cripplingly expensive), or writers could freely create fan fiction (another area where there are perpetually hovering legal threats).

    I don't buy records from a band I've never heard before, and I don't buy books from authors I've never read before. Do you? If so, IMO you're really weird and not very smart. How is a young musician or author supposed to get noticed under such a system?

    Have you ever been to an event or a bar where there's a band playing in the back? Have you ever been to a music festival with both established and upcoming bands? Have you ever watched a movie short? Do you think artists just walk into the studio and lay out an album having never produced a single demo or LP in their careers? Have you ever read an excerpt from an author that piqued your interest and made you want to find more from them (and possibly support them in creating that)?

    I'd say that things already work this way. Publishers invest in artists to produce their work - but they release the full work before they try to recoup their expenses, and then their product has had its value eliminated. Does that make sense to you?

    So why shouldn't artists follow the same model? Well, this is the MAFIAA we're talking about.

    That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about independent artists, musicians, songwriters, and authors. Notice you never see an indie artist suing for "piracy"?

    The only viable model is being strangled by the MAFIAA's greed. Back when Napster was in full force, the RIAA cokeheads thought nobody would buy CDs any more since you could download an MP3, and besides that they saw a way to get money for absolutely nothing (typical cokehead) and started "selling" MP3s. Had they not been so greedy as to slicing up the golden goose, they should have touted the advantages of physical media and used digital as advertising.

    I agree on all these points - the content industries are failing to innovate. They have ever since they found their first pot of gold. It's also worth noting that pretty much all movies and music have been total rehashes with different faces since the late 90s and early 2000's. But that's tangential.

    On point, I don't think sustainable innovation in a regime of censorship is practical, especially in a digital age. Hence I think there needs to be a move to adopt a system that's more physically robust. I have no idea if it will work if it doesn't happen, but I can tell you why no one has respect for the system we're stuck with today.

    And I feel that a non-censorship system works better. Putting everything in the public domain makes it easier to discover works so artists can more easily gain both inspiration and notoriety. Services like Napster probably promoted discovery of new music, experimentation and fusion of new styles, and newfound recognition and appreciation for the artists (incentivising them to create even more!). The opportunity to take advantage of this cultural explosion was there, but instead it was smothered not just by the existing powers but by public opinion that they were doing something immoral!

    And I feel that a pre-funding system works better as well. I'm sure that there are lots of artists and authors who give up on their hopes because they're not going to get compensated until they complete their work. How are they going to sustain themselves /before/ they manage to hit the big time? What happens if their work is a great flop instead and they get nothing out of it? And let's suppose that they do release their work to success - what's going to incentivise them to create more, rather than resting of the laurels of their previous work knowing that they can cash in on that for the rest of their lives (albeit at diminishing returns with the progress of time)?

    We can continue doing things the same way forever, but we've never had an open-minded public debate as to whether copyright really is a smart, sensible and effective model for promoting the arts and sustaining those who produce them. I don't see evidence that it has helped - I only see evidence that it harms the arts, the audience, and ultimately the artists. I think there has to be a better way.

    • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Monday April 27 2015, @03:35PM

      by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Monday April 27 2015, @03:35PM (#175743) Homepage Journal

      Reproducing a book in a digital form is also zero cost.

      Indeed, which is why I give the electronic versions of my work away for free.

      Not true if you compensate them before the cost has been eliminated.

      Who's going to do the compensating? Without copyrights, Doubleday would pay for a book to be written, but once published all the other publishers get a free ride. Nobody's going to pay anybody.

      I don't think sustainable innovation in a regime of censorship is practical, especially in a digital age.

      I agree, it isn't sustainable for digital works or file sharing. I'm of the opinion that digits shouldn't be covered by copyright, and in fact earlier copyright laws said the work had to be "in tangible form." Bits aren't tangible!

      Copyright is there to protect "content creators" as they're called today not from consumers, but from publishers. The rich idiots at the MAFIAA want to turn that completely around. I have no need to be protected from you, but I do need to be protected from Doubleday.

      And I feel that a non-censorship system works better. Putting everything in the public domain makes it easier to discover works so artists can more easily gain both inspiration and notoriety.

      So how are they supposed to pay the rent? Only folks like me who don't have to work could produce much of anything. And what you've written is why the founding Americans put "for limited times" in the constitution.

      And let's suppose that they do release their work to success - what's going to incentivise them to create more, rather than resting of the laurels of their previous work knowing that they can cash in on that for the rest of their lives (albeit at diminishing returns with the progress of time)?

      Greed. The wise know that there's never enough money no matter how rich you are, so they're content with what they have and simply enjoy life rather than chasing rainbows looking for the leprechaun's gold - but there are few of us like that.

      But what you pointed out s why the constitution says "for limited times" and is one of many reasons to shorten copyright terms. But 14 years is too short, twenty extendable to 30 or at most 40 would be IMO ideal.

      I only see evidence that it harms the arts, the audience, and ultimately the artists. I think there has to be a better way.

      The better way is to shorten copyrights drastically (life plus ninety five years is obscene) and make non-commercial sharing legal.

      --
      mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
      • (Score: 2) by hash14 on Monday April 27 2015, @10:50PM

        by hash14 (1102) on Monday April 27 2015, @10:50PM (#175888)

        Who's going to do the compensating? Without copyrights, Doubleday would pay for a book to be written, but once published all the other publishers get a free ride. Nobody's going to pay anybody.

        I would suggest that Doubleday not publish the book until their costs have been recouped and they're satisfied with their margins. Think of it like a Kickstarter model - the creators set a funding goal (or multiple tiered goals), and when the goal(s) is/are met they are expected to release a product they they promised for reaching that goal.

        To use a concrete example, suppose a book author has a franchise - the author has published x books and to release the x+1 book, he's requesting a goal of y dollars. If you want to put a publisher in the middle, then the publisher requests z dollars, gives y to the author, and keeps z-y as revenue. Then net result is that that the audience pays z, the author gets y, and the publisher gets z-y.

        All I'm suggesting is this: take all the money which (under a copyright model) is supposed to come in after the publication, and provide it before. And I've stated in other posts why people will continue paying for it, but to reiterate, they could provide samples, marketing, and so on. Also, publishers would be able to use their revenue to support new creators that they think have potential, resolving the issue of how new creators can get started and develop a name for themselves (somewhat analogous to how professional sports teams reinvest in youth leagues to develop talented individuals who have future potential to play in the professional leagues).

        And let's suppose that they do release their work to success - what's going to incentivise them to create more, rather than resting of the laurels of their previous work knowing that they can cash in on that for the rest of their lives (albeit at diminishing returns with the progress of time)?

        Greed. The wise know that there's never enough money no matter how rich you are, so they're content with what they have and simply enjoy life rather than chasing rainbows looking for the leprechaun's gold - but there are few of us like that.

        I agree with that. But I don't think copyright does as much to promote an artist to work on his next work.

        And I wouldn't completely buy an argument that authors need to compete against their previous public domain works. I don't see people rewatching their old favourite episodes of today's popular television shows, and I think the same would go for movies, books, music, and other such domains.

        • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday April 30 2015, @04:08PM

          by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Thursday April 30 2015, @04:08PM (#177137) Homepage Journal

          So how is a writer to get that first book published?

          --
          mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
          • (Score: 2) by hash14 on Wednesday May 06 2015, @05:24AM

            by hash14 (1102) on Wednesday May 06 2015, @05:24AM (#179397)

            A few ideas...

            • Publish the first few pages, as much as it takes to grab the readers' interest
            • Publish a short blurb to give the readers a brief summary of the work
            • "Investment funding" from a publisher that sees potential in the artist (analogous to a venture capitalist investment) - the support from the readers may not recoup the total investment of the first work, but the publishers may see potential that future works would turn a net gain
            • Start with a smaller work or subset of works (short stories, etc.) to build a credential base
            • Seek the review of respected critics to promote the work

            I understand that the industry doesn't work this way already, but I don't see why this couldn't be a sustainable, viable model.

      • (Score: 2) by hash14 on Monday April 27 2015, @11:05PM

        by hash14 (1102) on Monday April 27 2015, @11:05PM (#175890)

        Copyright is there to protect "content creators" as they're called today not from consumers, but from publishers. The rich idiots at the MAFIAA want to turn that completely around. I have no need to be protected from you, but I do need to be protected from Doubleday.

        Now I understand your argument.

        I just think that this is where a scheme like copyright fails. The whole, "don't violate our terms for this work, else you will be sued" type model is only effective if you have the money to sue. When you consider how expensive a lawsuit can be, there's really not much value to be earned by launching a lawsuit. In a copyright model, you will never be able to evade the fact that the system favours those who are wealthy enough to afford lawsuits, while it basically hangs out to dry those who aren't.

        In fact, let's be more concrete - let's suppose an author starts abusing the terms of a contract that they have with one of their authors. They can do it as long as they know that it would be more expensive for the author to take legal action to stop them (even if you have, say, a coalition group that would protect authors from these types of practises).. It's just like how the patent trolling model works. And this is another reason why I don't think a model that can only be enforced in a courtroom is viable - because of how courts and lawsuits work[1] (and the expenses and risks involved), it just inevitably favours the big guys over the small ones.

        [1] And even if you have a loser-pays model, there could still be a negative opportunity cost based on the probability of a favourable outcome..

  • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Tuesday April 28 2015, @01:09AM

    by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Tuesday April 28 2015, @01:09AM (#175919)

    No, it isn't. Copyrights are to encourage creative people to create.

    I've seen no credible scientific evidence that it actually is effective at doing such a thing, let alone scientific consensus. People simply make assertions that Bad Things would happen without copyright without providing a shred of hard scientific evidence. I've seen people provide baseless speculation and comparisons of different societies far different from our own in too many other ways, but no real evidence. Copyright places restrictions upon people's liberties, and yet its proponents are not even required to justify its existence? That is insane.

    But even with evidence, the fact that it impacts freedom of speech and private property rights in significant ways is enough to make me oppose it, even if it had provable benefits.

    • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday April 30 2015, @04:05PM

      by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Thursday April 30 2015, @04:05PM (#177134) Homepage Journal

      Every minute you spend grubbing for money is a minute you don't have to practice your craft. Look at the early US; it didn't recognize foreign copyrights, so NO AMERICAN AUTHORS COULD GET PUBLISHED AT ALL since the publishers didn't have to pay an author of a British book.

      --
      mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org