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posted by CoolHand on Saturday April 25 2015, @04:25AM   Printer-friendly
from the no-idea-what-a-vervet-is-and-ruh-roh-systemd dept.

Ubuntu 15.04 has now been released; full details are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseNotes

Notable new features:
- Unity 7.3
- LibreOffice 4.4
- Firefox 37
- Chromium 41

Low-level and server changes include:
- Linux kernel 3.19
- The move from upstart to systemd
- A new version of OpenStack
- Ubuntu Core (Snappy) - a variant to be used as a core OS for other software projects

OMGubuntu coverage is here: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2015/04/ubuntu-15-04-download-new-features
Slashdot commentary/griping at: http://news.slashdot.org/story/15/04/24/1245209/ubuntu-1504-released-first-version-to-feature-systemd

 
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  • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday April 25 2015, @05:03AM

    by bzipitidoo (4388) on Saturday April 25 2015, @05:03AM (#174974) Journal

    What major Linux distros haven't (yet) been conquered? OpenSUSE, Slackware, and Gentoo? Seems OpenSUSE will soon fall.

    I thought Ubuntu was going to buck the trend, invest their resources in their Upstart alternative.

    Starting Score:    1  point
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   2  
  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @05:43AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @05:43AM (#174983)

    This is now officially shitful. Work is looking at the cost of unix servers with an eye to reduce overheads. They want to switch to linux. Good, right? Well, no. This BS caused by systemd makes linux look unstable. They passed a decision to move to linux as a trial with a full move when/if this is resolved. Problem is that they are weighing Sun support against the Linux community division over systemd. Thanks Redhat for cooking our goose. Assholes.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @06:05AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @06:05AM (#174986)

      Let's all sing the market control song!

      Control control control /
      It's the Microsoft way /
      Control control control /
      Let's have it all our own way /

      Control control control /
      Redhat will show the way /
      Control control control /
      They'll have us their own way

      Fuck you, Poettering. My sound still isn't working right, I even left my system on overnight to test it and it muted the next morning.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:03AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:03AM (#174991)

      Sun support should be eclipsed by now, you mean oracle? If you have to choose between oracle and systemd I suggest exploring slackware, small but transparent distros like void... or rolling your own since you'll have to waste amounts of time and money in either way.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @03:17PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @03:17PM (#175735)

        One may wonder if this whole shit storm started when Oracle forked RHEL to produce their own distro.

        Soon after RH stopped publishing easy to use patch sets etc.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @12:57PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @12:57PM (#175034)

      I don't see the problem here. You can still choose from FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, PC-BSD and DragonFly BSD. Hell, just go with FreeBSD and you'll get the best of the other variants. They run pretty much all of the same good software that Linux does, without the stupidity of systemd and the other shit from Red Hat and Lennart.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Subsentient on Saturday April 25 2015, @06:10AM

    by Subsentient (1111) on Saturday April 25 2015, @06:10AM (#174987) Homepage Journal

    OpenSUSE already did fall.

    From https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Systemd [opensuse.org] :

    Systemd is the default and only init system since openSUSE 12.3

    Of course, you could always use my init system [universe2.us]. Generally not hard to shoehorn it into a system.

    --
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Marand on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:13AM

    by Marand (1081) on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:13AM (#174993) Journal

    Debian, even Jessie (going stable tomorrow) still has other init options than systemd, so you aren't forced into using it if you don't want. If you aren't using it as a desktop system, purging systemd and going back to another init (either the traditional one or some alternative) should have few (if any) drawbacks.

    If you're using it as a desktop system, it's a bit more complicated. There are some parts of a typical desktop system (udisks, policykit, network manager*, and many of the session managers like lightdm) that have an indirect dependency to systemd via libpam-systemd, but that doesn't mean you have to change your init.

    Systemd isn't just an init, it's more like a userland suite akin to how the BSDs distribute the "core" of the system differently than other packages. You can install systemd -- in Debian, at least -- to make those desktop bits happy while still choosing to use a different init and logger. Having the systemd package installed doesn't make it your init: installing systemd-sysv does that. The trick is to install systemd-shim, which will allow you to remove systemd-sysv and install an init of choice (like sysvinit)

    It's also possible, depending on your software choices, to end up with a desktop system that doesn't need systemd at all. You can use wicd instead of network manager[1] for example, and avoid things that needs udisks/polkit/etc. You'll want to turn off auto-installing "recommended" packages if you go this route, but anybody that's avoiding KDE and GNOME and the like probably do this already...

    One caveat to all of this: if you're installing, rather than upgrading, you either have to install systemd and then switch after the initial setup, or you have to jump through some hoops to make the installer not install systemd. I saw mention of it on one of the Debian RSS feeds, so it should turn up in a web search. If you're updating from Wheezy (about to become oldstable) it's simpler, because you can pin systemd-sysv to -1 priority and the dependency resolver will fall back to systemd-shim instead.

    I don't know what the future will bring, but for now at least, Debian still offers a choice. If you're already using it, don't jump just yet. If you're using Ubuntu, it hasn't had sysvinit in years, so you'll either need to make the move to the parent distro (a good choice anyway) or just deal with the change -- it's not like Ubuntu users had sysvinit anyway.

    I've been using Jessie through its entire testing cycle, and my experience so far is that most of the systemd suite is just helper bullshit along the same lines as dbus, hal, and udev. (udev has been folded into the systemd suite, in fact.) The biggest difference is that, so far, it's been less troublesome than the early days[2] of those three. The part I find objectionable is the init and logger, because I don't think they're mature enough yet to be trusted as replacements -- especially considering the quality of other work by the project leaders. Luckily, those parts can be left out in Debian if a user (like myself) feels strongly enough about it to make the effort.

    ---

    [1] Network Manager sucks any way, so just install wicd instead, even if you don't mind systemd.
    [2] I recall the early days of some of those, especially hal and dbus, being nightmarish. Constant random breakage until things got sorted.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @12:59PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @12:59PM (#175035)

      Jesus Christ. The point of me using a Linux distro is to make my life easier. If I have to jump through hoops like those just so the Linux installation boots reliably, then I'm no better off than if I was using Windows or some other OS. Fuck, I'd probably be better off not using Linux in this case!

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @06:42PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @06:42PM (#175120)
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @08:36PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @08:36PM (#175157)

          And they would be wrong. Booting is more important than security in the same sense that being born is more important than your ability to fight off an infection.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @09:41PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @09:41PM (#175173)

            Wait, you're claiming that Linux sans systemd doesn't boot?

            SysVinit and the other old-school init systems were merely accused of booting too slowly, leading to the primary reason claimed for needing the systemd infection. The non-booting systems [google.com] of late have actually been the ones using systemd.

      • (Score: 2, Disagree) by Marand on Sunday April 26 2015, @01:04AM

        by Marand (1081) on Sunday April 26 2015, @01:04AM (#175210) Journal

        It seems obvious to me that you're just trolling, but I'll bite anyway, since a couple people seem to think your trolling is "insightful".

        • Systemd does work well enough for a majority of users and use-cases, especially desktop ones. For most people it will just work. There will be niche cases where something goes wrong, but that's nothing new for Linux, or even Windows, where system hardware and software combinations can vary wildly.

        This isn't much different than booting to GPU issues that prevent proper startup or any other number of similar problems that can occur. If you absolutely cannot accept that these things happen sometimes, then you should probably stick to OS X with its limited hardware choice, and replace the entire system any time it's necessary to do an OS upgrade.

        If you really want Linux-sans-risks, take the Apple-esque route and buy from a Linux vendor. They'll do the work of making sure the system boots with the hardware configuration they sell, the same way Apple does.

        • For a server use-case without desktop components, removing systemd should be similar to any other software change. Anybody running a server is already likely to be changing settings, removing preinstalled software, and adding new. Removing systemd if you're opposed to it or it's troublesome isn't a huge burden in this scenario

        • For a desktop user, yes, it's an annoying extra step. However, most users don't care unless it breaks. Once something breaks, anything to fix it is going to be obnoxious extra work. For this group, systemd failing to boot isn't going to be any worse than a GPU driver issue causing X to crash: both result in either "shit, better check google" or "fuck this, back to Windows".

        • I was providing information and caveats for different use cases in a single post; the actual change required to switch out systemd for people that don't want it (like myself) varies, but generally isn't that difficult. The most complicated case is the extreme ideological "I want no part of this on my system, even the inoffensive non-init bits". For anybody else it's basically just "uninstall this package, install this package instead, good to go."

        • If you're just philosophically opposed to systemd for some reason -- which you probably are, or you wouldn't be spending so much time with the systemd trolling -- you've already decided you're willing to "jump through hoops" for your principles. Regardless of whether you're switching distros, purging systemd, or changing OSes, you've already decided you're willing to be inconvenienced to ditch it.

        This is not really any different than why many people use Linux. It's not something you get preinstalled usually (and if you do, you have to put effort into finding a Linux hardware vendor), so by choosing to use it you already made a choice to put some extra effort into your OS use for some practical or ideological reason that outweighs the inconvenience.

        ---

        Finally, just to be clear, I'm not a fan of systemd, especially the init and logging parts, but I also see no reason to take a sky-is-falling approach and pretend it suddenly makes all distros unbootable and unusable. I'm avoiding the init part for now because I have my own problems with it -- which is why I know how to remove it and share that info with others that want it -- but I don't mind its existence.

        Multiple init systems allows exploration of new ideas, and in time the bad parts get culled while the good ideas get shared amongst them. The problem is when it becomes impossible to use alternatives at all, but that's not currently the case, at least in Debian.

        Likewise, the BSD-style userland suite isn't necessarily a bad idea, I'm just not convinced it's necessary, or ready for widespread adoption just yet.

        • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @02:06AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @02:06AM (#175221)

          Wrong.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Bot on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:17AM

    by Bot (3902) on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:17AM (#174994) Journal

    My antenna was raised about systemd precisely because canonical did not keep pushing his own solution over it. Canonical had always tried to be different than the other distros, even when it meant inconveniencing the user. So when they bent over systemd I thought: what does this thing do that is so important?

    --
    Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Marand on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:57AM

      by Marand (1081) on Saturday April 25 2015, @07:57AM (#174996) Journal

      As I understand it, Canonical wanted a sysvinit replacement and created upstart for that purpose years ago (2006 according to wikipedia). Systemd came later (2010) with the same goal, but developed by RedHat employees because redhat loves its NIH.

      Canonical only decided to abandon upstart because Debian chose to support systemd over upstart. Prior to this, upstart and systemd were both equally supported in Debian as alternate inits. I'd guess that Canonical decided that systemd now has enough of the things they wanted from upstart that it's more economical to go with Debian's decision than it is to continue dumping development effort into something that does mostly the same things.

      It's another variation of the same old RedHat/GNOME tune: someone else makes it first, so they (RH/GNOME) have to make their own version, go out of their way to avoid compatibility or collaboration, and then everyone gives up and adopts it because RH/GNOME won't give up any ground, so it's easier for everybody else to roll over and let them win.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Saturday April 25 2015, @03:33PM

        by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Saturday April 25 2015, @03:33PM (#175077) Journal

        Bob Young left RedHat - and it became the corporate route to infect and compromise Linux by those who do their magic so well with Microsoft., etc.

        --
        You're betting on the pantomime horse...
      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @04:13PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @04:13PM (#175083)

        Canonical has gotten heavily involved in "cloud". One of their recent releases was a mini-distro built around containerization (Snappy).

        Systemd has of late gained a whole lot of features to supplant Docker.

        One may speculate that Canonical saw the writing on the wall, and wanted Debian to go Systemd so they didn't have to do the heavy lifting.

  • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Saturday April 25 2015, @09:40AM

    by Magic Oddball (3847) on Saturday April 25 2015, @09:40AM (#175002) Journal

    As of last time I looked, the only major holdouts were Slackware and PCLinuxOS (which I migrated to in late December).

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @01:11PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @01:11PM (#175040)

      Slackware isn't an option. It's a fossil. It isn't 1995 any longer. The economy has been in the shitter for years, and we're busy enough just keeping afloat. We don't have time to spent days configuring a new Linux installation by hand. We need Linux distros that install quickly, that configure themselves, and that work with minimal tweaking. Slackware totally doesn't work like that.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @02:50PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @02:50PM (#175066)

        Sharks are fossils too, yet they rule the seas just as much today as they did hundreds of millions of years ago. Old is different from bad.

        The tool to select depends on the task at hand.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by present_arms on Saturday April 25 2015, @03:23PM

    by present_arms (4392) on Saturday April 25 2015, @03:23PM (#175076) Homepage Journal

    http://trinity.mypclinuxos.com/ [mypclinuxos.com]

    No Systemd here, or in any of the parent distros

    DISCLAIMER, I;m the one who did the trinity respin

    --
    http://trinity.mypclinuxos.com/
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @03:50PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @03:50PM (#175079)

      Very cool!

      Thanks!

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @04:19PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 25 2015, @04:19PM (#175085)

    Anything RPM based has already gone down the tube as most of them seem to take their lead from Fedora.