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AlterNet reports:
Illinois governor Bruce Rauner watched his anti-union bill called, "Right-To-Work", die a swift, cruel death in the House [May 14]. [...] The the tally [PDF] was 0 yes votes, 72 no votes, and 37 voting present.
Fun with math: The Illinois House has 118 members.
A handful of Republicans went for a walk during the vote, not publicly falling on one side or another.
Source: Chicago Sun Times
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Illinois Governor Gets Zero Votes On His "Right To Work" Bill
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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
It's not reality that's important, but how you perceive things.
(Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:01AM
You have a very one-sided view.
Face it, the economy is global now, and has been for some time. How is an American company supposed to survive if it has to pay its unionized workers $80/hour, while somebody in Mexico or China doing the same job will do it for $3/hour, or some Japanese robots will do it at an even lower cost than that? It won't be able to make products that anyone, anywhere in the world, will be able to afford.
Unions killed the Big Three American automakers. Unions killed most other industry in the US, too. When American workers are overpaid thanks to unionization, then the companies have to cut back on the quality of the product in order to keep the price at what the market will bear. This will always drive consumers away, over time. Then when the Japanese (and later the Chinese) come in and create products that aren't just cheaper, but are of a higher quality, then the American companies have no choice but to fail.
Yeah, it is a race to the bottom. Everybody is winning except the unionized folks, and they're losing because they didn't deserve what they had in the first place.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 18 2015, @02:28AM
You know - you almost sounded like you knew what you were talking about for a short bit there. But - when you claim that the Chinese make higher quality product, you've lost it. The Chinese produce junk, almost exclusively. There is little that they produce that has any claim to quality. But, their shit is cheap! And, uneducated lackwits who are incapable of judging quality will always buy the cheapest item on the shelf.
Have you had any good melamine flavored milk lately?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:33AM
You never drove an American-made auto in the 1970s or 1980s, I see. The lack of quality then was of a degree that even the Chinese couldn't hope to match.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @03:26AM
During that time, the USA manufacturers were competing with Japanese manufacturers for various components, such as bolts and other fasteners.
The Japanese companies undercut US manufacturers on price. What no one knew (at the time) was that the Japanese parts, adopted by US manufacturers, supposedly built to the "standards", were sub-standard. Thus, US autos began to fall apart, and were perceived to be (and, in fact, WERE) of a lower quality than Japanese products.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @03:04AM
The thing is *currently* most Chinese stuff is crap. Roll back 40 years and you would have said the exact same words about Japan and South Korea. The mexicans basically make all of our textiles now. All of the factories were moved to Mexico over the past 15 years. The *whole* factory. All that is left in SC and NC is miles and miles of empty buildings that used to house huge machines. They moved them to mexico. All 'cheap' manufacturing is now elsewhere. All the farmers outsource the work to under the table paid 'undocumented workers'. All that is left is 'intellectual jobs' which is being given to H1Bs.
At all levels we took our jobs and sold them to the lowest bidder. It is only a matter of time before the lowest bidder actually becomes good at the job. It only takes time to practice your art.
Think about the iPhone. It is pretty much entirely made in China with a few parts made elsewhere. Do you consider that cheap crap? That expertise does not 'go away' if Apple moves somewhere else.
Do not think a union will save the jobs either. I have seen union after union 'win'. Then within 10 years that factor was just straight up closed and moved to mexico/china/india. My friends dad used to work at goodyear. The plant he worked at? Closed and moved then magically reopened in mexico with no union. My neighbor worked at a textile plant here in NC. Closed. Reopened in mexico. His 'management job' moved to india.
In 30 years we will be talking about the quality goods from China/Mexico/India.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @08:48AM
No. In 30 years the factories will move back to the U.S. to save fuel money. All the jobs will be done by machines.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by jcm on Monday May 18 2015, @12:30PM
I agree with you about unions, unions only serve themselves, more than unionists.
But you are wrong about China, and I'll take Japan's example.
In Japan's culture, the companies do not lay off their employees, so people are faithful to their company.
Some people even die for their company: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi [wikipedia.org]
It is hilarious to discover that Japan's economy has been heavily influenced by W. Edwards Demming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming [wikipedia.org] who has been completely ignored by US companies.
China doesn't have a similar culture.
On the contrary, companies always try to find cheaper employees, like prisoners or students.
There is a race to the bottom salaries.
It has been more than 20 years that China took the jobs from US, but I have yet to see any increase of quality.
Chinese are too focused about short-term profits, and this goes against quality.
And please, don't use the example of IPhones.
They have the technology to build them, but do they have the means or desire to improve it ?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @08:44AM
Not like those high-quality American-manufactured Apple devices, right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @09:14PM
The Chinese produce junk, almost exclusively.
You have that almost right. The Chinese produce. Period.
They produce a lot of junk, but that's because the majority of the market asks for it. They also produce higher quality items when asked to and paid to (such as iPhones). They are merely the factory, and willing to produce whatever to whatever specification the buyer wants. There are numerous places where stronger IP laws, history and tradition, or whatever reason have resulted in high-quality (or low-quality) things are produced as well. But it is as naïve to say that China can only produce junk as it is to say that you can only get things produced in China.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:40AM
How is an American company supposed to survive
It worked quite well for 5 decades.
...then the working class was convinced through the Right-Wing media (it's NEVER been Left-Wing) to accept the swill called Reaganomics.
Had every union member (and all of his family, friends, and neighbors) told every politician that trade deals like CAFTA, NAFTA, and SHAFTA are not acceptable, we'd still have tariffs and a vibrant manufacturing sector and lots of good-paying jobs.
The Fascists [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [thomhartmann.com] were very effective at manipulating Joe Average to vote against himself.
Everybody is winning except the unionized folks
You, for example, are still spouting the 0.01 percent's bullshit.
The wealth of non-elites is slipping away and the farther you are away from the gentry, the faster it is evaporating.
We haven't seen the bottom yet (and the govt's numbers are fraudulent).
the unionized folks [are] losing because they didn't deserve what they had in the first place
Working class people who hate the working class are mentally defective.
Thinking that dragging people down to your level is noble and right--rather looking for a way that everyone can get the kind of union wage that folks had for decades is just pathetic.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:47AM
Unionization only "worked" in America because it was the only major industrial power left after WWII that hadn't suffered near-total destruction of all of its infrastructure.
As we all know, this union house of cards came crashing down the moment Japan had recovered enough to offer some economic competition. It was collapsing in the 1970s, 15 to 20 years before NAFTA and other trade agreements came into effect.
Unions caused their own downfall, and the downfall of American industry, thanks to their greed and unwillingness to face the realities of economics.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @03:20AM
You should find a group of union electricians or plumbers and tell them your opinion.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @09:17PM
How do you explain how effective unions are in Germany, and how successful Germany's industry is?
This is meant both as a rhetorical argument and a legitimate question. How come unions are so good in Germany (and effectively in Japan as well, as I understand it) but don't have the same successes in the US?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:43AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @02:56AM
Like we saw in America in the 1970s, even well-paid unionized workers won't buy cars that are of a remarkably shitty quality, yet still quite costly, all thanks to the price being driven up by undeserved and unjustifiable union benefits (like wages several times the true value that the worker provides).
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @01:51PM
Those filthy workers, scheming to negotiate a fair wage while those poor executives that add nothing to the value of the company take well over 10x their salary! If only free market values were in force, where the executives could take 100x the salary of their subsistence wage employees. Dammed unions!
(Score: 5, Informative) by sjames on Monday May 18 2015, @02:57AM
But I note that they don't sell those products here in the U.S. at those 3rd world prices. So I'll turn that around, how are workers here supposed to work at $3/hr when it takes more than twice that just to be above the poverty line?
The big 3 weren't killed by unions, they were killed by crooked CEOs raiding the pension fund. Note that the Japanese car companies build cars HERE and pay better than the big 3.
(Score: 1) by albert on Monday May 18 2015, @03:20AM
Japanese cars are built more to the south, where right-to-work laws make manufacturing viable.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Monday May 18 2015, @03:56AM
And yet they pay more than the big 3 pay the union workers up north. Perhaps they understand that trying to screw their employees is a losing deal.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by albert on Monday May 18 2015, @04:59AM
Sure. Without the uncertainty and overhead of dealing with a union, those workers are worth more.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Monday May 18 2015, @07:34AM
Perhaps if the big three would try treating workers like the foreign companies do, they wouldn't be so interested in being in a union.
Funny how it's apparently OK for a large corporation to throw it's weight around against individual employees but god forbid the employees should band together for collective bargaining.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @10:04AM
There is a Volkswagen plant in Tennessee.
VW **wanted** a union there.
The local gov't used scare tactics and got the rank and file to vote against the union.
Life in the USA is weird.
-- gewg_
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Dunbal on Monday May 18 2015, @03:11AM
How is an American company supposed to survive if it has to pay its unionized workers $80/hour, while somebody in Mexico or China doing the same job will do it for $3/hour, or some Japanese robots will do it at an even lower cost than that?
The same way companies always survive. By providing a superior product through innovation. Believe it or not there's a difference between a $5 Big Mac and a $35 cheeseburger at a fancy restaurant. And believe it or not there are people willing to pay $35 for a burger. Price is not the only variable in the products you make. What are German cars famous for? Being expensive. What else are they famous for? Being well made. You can't compete with China/India/Africa on price. So don't. Hell if you're paying your employees $80 an hour then they can afford the $35 burger. The problem arises when some bright spark in management wants to charge people $35 for a burger, offer less quality than a Big Mac, and pay its employees $3 an hour.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @03:14AM
Absolutely. One takes $5 out of your wallet and becomes shit a day later. The other takes $35 out of your wallet and becomes shit a day later.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Dunbal on Monday May 18 2015, @03:25AM
Which is why you deserve the race to the bottom you are currently experiencing. I mean there's no difference between flying to Europe coach or business class. The miles traveled are the same, the destination is the same, the flight leaves and arrives at exactly the same time for the passenger seated in 3A or seated in 37E. The fact that one is three to five times more expensive than the other is just a shameless money grab by the airlines.
But why do I never feel tired, angry or jet lagged when I fly business?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @03:52AM
But why do I never feel tired, angry or jet lagged when I fly business?
It's because you're playing Microsoft Flight Simulator X, you never left your mother's basement, and you spent the previous 12 hours sleeping in until the middle of the afternoon.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @07:10AM
Oh, you lose. You can't construct a factual argument to support your assumptions so you get angry and resort to rather pathetic insults, nothing more than juvenile name calling, to try and reinforce your own self-esteem, hoping you'll prove your manliness to yourself.
Deep down, you know you're nothing more than a giant spanner.
(Score: 2) by Dunbal on Monday May 18 2015, @04:02PM
Some people are angry all the time and they don't even know why. Anyway, Flight Simulator X is pretty much the equivalent to flying coach nowadays - there are better sims on the market :P
(Score: 3, Informative) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @03:35AM
Absolutely. One takes $5 out of your wallet and becomes shit a day later. The other takes $35 out of your wallet and becomes shit a day later.
Tries to sound witty, instead shows a lack of understanding of the topic.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @03:44AM
Tork, when you eat a $35 hamburger and then you shit out dicks, they didn't come from the $35 hamburger. They're the dicks you shoved up your ass at the Turkish baths.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @04:18AM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:16PM
Not at all. It's not about homophobia. It's about explaining why the $35 hamburger you ate isn't responsible for the dicks coming out of your ass. There is no connection, as much as you think that there is.
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday May 18 2015, @03:01PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2015, @12:37PM
You've obviously never eaten at MacDonald's.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday May 18 2015, @03:14AM
FTFY
How that this didn't happen in other sides of the world?M
Ah, yes, another evidence of American exceptionalism. No, of course not, the American corporate executives had nothing to do with their corporation early demise - it was the exceptional hand of the free market fairy when 'twas forced by those pesky unions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday May 18 2015, @03:35AM
You have a very one-sided view. Here, let me show you the exact opposite one-sided view.
FTFY
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by dak664 on Monday May 18 2015, @05:42PM
Henry Ford could have paid his workers much less and sold his car for a little less. Paying more in wages made the cars more expensive, which would have the effect of increasing his profit per car. That works as long as there are there enough people who can afford the higher price. He famously said he wanted his workers to be able to buy his product, but their numbers were trivial compared to the large number of affluent (mostly rural) workers.
At that time there were no competitors willing or able to sell for less so he did not lose market share. As other American companies started up there was not much price competition, probably involving private deals between corporate and union board members. Later electronics manufacturers followed the same route of high wages and more costly radios and televisions.
When the cheaper imports began to arrive there was some attempt to stigmatize the product and the people who bought them (tinny japanese transistor radios, unpatriotic drivers of import cars), but by 1980 or so import tariffs began to disappear and there was a full race to the cheapest product.
Not sure how to get back to the former model, and not sure we would want to. I rather think the whole idea of workers with jobs is becoming obsolete.