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posted by CoolHand on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:14AM   Printer-friendly
from the erosion-of-rights dept.

The Guardian reports that Britain's most senior Muslim policeman, Mak Chisty, has warned "Islamist propaganda is so potent it is influencing children as young as five and should be countered with intensified monitoring to detect the earliest signs of anti-western sentiment". He gives several examples of indoctrination being forced upon children as young as five (Christmas being "haram" [an act forbidden by Islam]) and teenagers being groomed to join ISIS.

Chishty said friends and family of youngsters should be intervening much earlier, watching out for subtle, unexplained changes, which could also include sudden negative attitudes towards alcohol, social occasions and western clothing. They should challenge and understand what caused such changes in behaviour, the police commander said, and seek help, if needs be from the police, if they are worried.

[...] Chishty said communities in Britain had to act much earlier. He said: "We need to now be less precious about the private space. This is not about us invading private thoughts, but acknowledging that it is in these private spaces where this [extremism] first germinates. The purpose of private-space intervention is to engage, explore, explain, educate or eradicate. Hate and extremism is not acceptable in our society, and if people cannot be educated, then hate and harmful extremism must be eradicated through all lawful means." [...] Asked to define "private space", Chishty said: "It's anything from walking down the road, looking at a mobile, to someone in a bedroom surfing the net, to someone in a shisha cafe talking about things."

[...] He said friends and family were best placed to intervene. Questions should be asked, he said, if someone stops shopping at Marks & Spencer [a shop perceived to be Jewish owned] or starts voicing criticism. He said it could be they were just fed up with the store, but alternatively they could have "hatred for that store". He said the community should "look out for each other", that ISIS was "un-Islamic", as proven by its barbarity.

turgid notes:

As an atheist who enthusiastically celebrates Christmas, eats chocolate eggs at Easter and carves turnips or pumpkins at Halloween, I find it very strange that people of many religions often artificially exclude themselves from harmless and enjoyable local traditional customs. I find it very sad that we have young people brought up in a strictly-controlled environment cut off from the ideas and views of the rest of the world. I also find it abhorrent that the Establishment now finds itself publicly calling for the complete abandonment one of the core values of individual liberty.

Maybe the rest of us shouldn't worry because we're not Muslim? Where have I heard this before?

Meanwhile, our government is attempting to tear up the Human Rights Act. It's easier to control when the proles have no rights.


[Editor's Comment: Original Submission. Significant edits to this submission have been made - acknowledgement of the submitter has been changed to reflect this. janrinok]

 
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  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Beige on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:48AM

    by Beige (3989) on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:48AM (#187904) Homepage

    Perhaps we ought to take a critical view of how we indoctrinate our young as well, though. The submitter states he is an "atheist who enthusiastically celebrates Christmas", but would he really go as far as saying that our modern-day Christmas tradition is so culturally superiour that it ought to be force-fed to every child on the planet?

    For example, in our modern secular representation of Santa's workshop the "elves" are typically represented as unpaid slave labour working around the clock in oppressive working conditions. This kind of ethically questionable arrangement is echoed in classics such as the "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" TV-movie from 1964, where Santa generally comes across as a narcissistic tyrant.

    Sure, perhaps I am writing this a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I do wonder specifically which part of our pagan-Christian tradition the "atheist who enthusiastically celebrates Christmas" considers crucial? Should we not be more concerned with promoting and celebrating modern secular values such as equality and human rights?

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @08:38AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @08:38AM (#187923)

    "ok, here is your xmas gift!"

    *crumpling paper*

    "just what I always wanted! Another plastic toy."

  • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday May 26 2015, @03:36PM

    by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday May 26 2015, @03:36PM (#188069)

    Why do you assume the elves are unpaid?

    --
    "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @05:41PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @05:41PM (#188162)

      Why do you assume they are?

  • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday May 26 2015, @05:31PM

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday May 26 2015, @05:31PM (#188155)

    Christmas is a great tradition, but it's not a Christian tradition. It was originally called Saturnalia, and was a pagan Roman holiday. They added on the tree bit from some pagan Germanic tradition. So if you're an atheist and celebrating Christmas (with the tree and gift-giving components, not any talk about the birth of Jesus, who wasn't born in the wintertime anyway according to the Bible), then you're really following a tradition started by people with long-dead religions. I don't know anyone who worships Saturn any more.

    As for the bit about Santa, that's just some silly story we feed to kids which no one actually believes because it's so ridiculous. That's what makes these great traditions: we celebrate family and all that, spend time with them, exchange gifts, etc., but there isn't any crazy religious dogma underlying it. It's totally harmless. Also, people like regular holidays: it gives them time off from work, something to look forward to, etc.

    As for the elves, again no one actually believes any of that stuff, but the usual narrative is that the elves actually *like* to work that fast and are good at it (except for Hermey, who's better at dentistry). As for being "unpaid", they have a nice place to live, free room and board, etc., how is that "unpaid"? Basically they live in a small communist society it seems, though they have to answer to Santa. What good would money be to them in a closed society where there's nothing to buy? That doesn't even make sense. That's like complaining that someone in some ancient nomadic hunter-gatherer tribe was "unpaid". They contribute to the tribe, and the tribe in turn takes care of them.

    • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:23PM

      by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:23PM (#188173) Journal

      I agree with much of what you have written.

      there isn't any crazy religious dogma underlying it

      To you perhaps, but many Christians do celebrate the religious meaning behind Christmas. The day marks an important (but certainly not the most important) day in the Christian calendar. However, it is not what everyone else thinks about the significance of Christmas that is important in this particular discussion. It is the fact that some Muslims appear to view the date not only as a significant date in someone else's religion, but as an event that is actually forbidden by their own scriptures. Whether that is an accurate interpretation of their scriptures is not something that I am qualified to debate, but many Muslims seem to dispute this interpretation. However, when children as young as 5 years old are being told it as a bald fact it is creating in them a belief that it is something that is wrong and should be redressed. This belief results in conflict between Islam and Christianity well into the future, but it has no place in a tolerant society.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:29PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:29PM (#188176)

        So wait, if many christians do celeberate the religious meaning of christmas - as in the birth of jesus the lord that is ok.
        But when muslim children are told that since jesus is just a prophet (the 2nd most important prophet of them all BTW) but not God, they can't participate in christmas, that's not ok?
        And the jews who can't participate in christmas either, what about them?

        Seems like hypocrisy to me.

        • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:44PM

          by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:44PM (#188186) Journal

          Where did I say that no-one else could participate? People are free to do as they wish whether they believe in Christ, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, some other Deity, or not. I was merely pointing out that to some, there is a religious significance to the event, even if many choose to treat it as something else entirely.

          I have also joined Muslim families celebrate the end of Ramadan, and been present when Jews have celebrated the Passover. I don't have to judge or follow their religion, nor does their belief have to have any affect on mine. I am merely joining friends who wish to celebrate something of importance to them.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:55PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @06:55PM (#188190)

            > Where did I say that no-one else could participate?

            You have missed my point.

            (1) religious meaning of xmas is birth of jesus the lord
            (2) you say it is OK for people who believe jesus is the lord to celebrate xmas
            (3) you say it is bad for people who believe jesus is not the lord to be forbidden from celebrating christmas

            Why is (2) OK but (3) is bad?

            Perhaps there is a vocabulary issue here, as spelled out in TFS, haram means forbidden. As in forbidden for muslims, just like things like eating pork are also haram.

            • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Frost on Thursday May 28 2015, @07:38PM

              by Frost (3313) on Thursday May 28 2015, @07:38PM (#189272)

              Er... How about: allowing harmless activities is good; forbidding harmless activities is bad. Is that simple enough for you?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 30 2015, @12:25AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 30 2015, @12:25AM (#189917)

                > Er... How about: allowing harmless activities is good; forbidding harmless activities is bad. Is that simple enough for you?

                Ok then. What harm is there in abstaining from religious events that directly contradict your religion?
                Are jews harmed by refusing to eat pork?

        • (Score: 2) by turgid on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:53PM

          by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:53PM (#188229) Journal

          For me, Christmas (and New Year) is a family get-together when people will make a special effort to travel to one location to spend time with each other, decorate the house, put up a tree decorated with tinsel, lights and baubles, give each other (hopefully) fun presents, be nice to each other, eat lots of nice food, drink beer, wine, whisky etc. and so on.

          The Jesus myth is just a piece of cultural background. Everyone knows that Christmas has European origins that precede Christianity for perhaps thousands of years, Easter as well,

          I don't see what "magic" is done by bringing a tree into the house and decorating it (as if it beams energy to god or something, with a coded message saying, "Let me into Heaven please") any more than my cactus plants on the window sill do.

          Similarly with Easter, which goes back to pagan times where people would celebrate the fact that Nature was "regenerating" with all the new baby animals being born, flowers blooming and the daylight hours getting longer. Of course, the Christians came along and appropriated it and linked it to the myth of Christ's resurrection (and the egg being the stone rolled over the entrance to the tomb).

          Halloween is funny, because some people really do still believe in evil spirits and that Halloween is "worshiping" them (whatever that means)...

      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:07PM

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:07PM (#188196)

        To you perhaps, but many Christians do celebrate the religious meaning behind Christmas.

        I'm not really talking about the devout or fundamentalist Christians; sorry if I wasn't clear, I was addressing the holiday from the perspective of atheists, agnostics, not-so-religious people, etc., which is probably most people in western society these days. We almost all celebrate Christmas, but it's turned into a mostly non-religious wintertime holiday for gift-giving and taking a week off from work. Yes, there's a bunch of Christians who complain that "we've taken the Christ out of Christmas!!", but this isn't about them, because the rest of us don't celebrate the holiday that way.

        It is the fact that some Muslims appear to view the date not only as a significant date in someone else's religion, but as an event that is actually forbidden by their own scriptures.

        They're probably right. And all kinds of other things are forbidden by their scriptures too, while various things are permitted or encouraged, such as murdering infidels. That's why Islam is such a dangerous thing to have in Western society, and why we should be actively preventing such people from joining our societies. With the Christians, we don't have much choice; they were already here, and we're still working on ridding ourselves of the worst parts of the Christian religion (look how awful it used to be hundreds of years ago, when they burned people at the stake for "witchcraft", heresy, or just plain being the wrong kind of Christian); we don't need to go back to that backwardsness.

        This belief results in conflict between Islam and Christianity well into the future, but it has no place in a tolerant society.

        True, and it proves that Islam has no place in tolerant society, because Islam itself is completely intolerant. You can't bring intolerant people into a tolerant society and expect them to magically become tolerant. Personally, I think this is one of the moral dilemmas that Western society needs to figure out pretty soon: how do you stay tolerant with people who are intolerant, and demand that their intolerance become the norm? Is it possible to bring intolerant people into a society and remain a tolerant society? Or does the society need to actively exclude intolerant people from immigrating en masse?

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:30PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 26 2015, @07:30PM (#188213)

          They're probably right. And all kinds of other things are forbidden by their scriptures too, while various things are permitted or encouraged, such as murdering infidels. That's why Islam is such a dangerous thing to have in Western society,

          Whenever this lie is made it needs to be debunked. I know you won't change your faith, because you've been corrected before and still insist on repeating the lie, but no one else should be fooled by you.

          “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

          “If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)

          “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” (Quran 5:99)

          “So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” (Quran 3:20)

          In order to believe the muslim scripture permits or even encourages killing non-believers, you have to wilfully ignore scripture like the above.

          You will now respond with an out of context interpretation of the so-called sword verse [quranicstudies.com] and probably a reference to an obscure and highly disputed theory called abrogation which is basically a modern witch-hunt - all scripture that contradicts your version of one line in the quaran doesn't count because muslims be cray.

          • (Score: 2) by turgid on Tuesday May 26 2015, @09:46PM

            by turgid (4318) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 26 2015, @09:46PM (#188295) Journal

            You make a very important point. Let me explain my reason for submitting this story. Throughout all periods of history there have been people who form radical religious movements, having thought they have discovered some absolute truth that no one has ever seen before. At the moment, there is understandable fear and disgust at the actions of IS/ISIS/ISIL and similar groups. I fear that the political establishment is using this fear (and ignorance) to erode our rights and freedoms, ostensibly to protect us from this bogeyman by appealing to our fear and ignorance, so that it can monitor and control us all more completely. I respect people's need to believe and I want to live in a society where we can all believe as our own minds require.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2015, @02:16AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 27 2015, @02:16AM (#188404)

      I worship Saturn, the ring is so pretty