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"At some point as a country, we have to reckon with what happens. It's not enough to express sympathy. You don't see this kind of murder, on this scale, with this kind of frequency in other advanced countries on earth." - President Obama.
Discuss.
- A Hectic Day at Church, and Then a Hellish Visitor
- Charleston relatives 'forgive' shooting suspect in court
- Latest on church shooting: Black, white pastors get together
- Terrorism v hate crime: How US courts decide: After the murder of nine black Americans at a church in Charleston, South Carolina by a white man, advocates and commentators are calling for suspect Dylann Roof to be described as a terrorist.
- Why we shouldn't call Dylann Roof a terrorist
- We Asked a Lawyer if Dylann Roof Could Face Terrorism Charges
- As Media Labels Roof 'Troubled Loner,' Justice Department Moves Forward With Domestic Terrorism Charges
- Was the South Carolina shooting a hate crime or a terrorist attack?
- Terrorism in Charleston demands the government act like black lives matter
- Criminal Justice Professor Discusses Charleston Shooting Suspect Dylann Roof
- Dylann Roof's friend: 'He never said anything racist': Christon Scriven, 21, told the BBC's Rajini Vaidyanathan that Mr Roof "wanted to shoot that school up - UCA university of Charleston - it's 3 miles up the street from that church."
- Mitt Romney Calls on South Carolina to Remove Confederate Flag at Capitol
- Dylann Storm Roof Photos Found on Website [manifesto archive]
- Here's What Appears to Be Dylann Roof's Racist Manifesto
- Photos Of Dylann Roof, Racist Manifesto Surface On Website
- BBC: The collection of photographs found on a website also show 21-year-old Dylann Roof burning the US flag and visiting a former slave plantation.
- Possible manifesto of Dylann Roof draws from hate group's text, expert says
- Police: Charleston church shooting suspect Dylann Roof is on suicide watch
- Charleston Church Shooter Dylann Roof Was Loner Caught in 'Internet Evil': Family
- The Mainstream Media Is Showing Its Bias In Charleston Massacre. And It's Ugly.
- Rick Perry: Charleston massacre was an 'accident' caused by drugs — not guns
- Suboxone: What is the drug linked to Charleston shooting suspect?
Original Submission
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Universe, n.:
The problem.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 20 2015, @11:35PM
Ahhh sorry but fuck this shit. I thought that wasn't what this fucking site was supposed to be about.
There are enough PC sites to engage in this discussion...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 20 2015, @11:42PM
He used the Internet. We'll just have to see what 1st amendment restrictions follow.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 20 2015, @11:54PM
This is exactly what we should discuss here. We need to ban everyone but the wise government from having guns.
-- gewg_
(Score: 5, Insightful) by SpockLogic on Sunday June 21 2015, @12:10AM
It's another example of the American Disease™:- almost unfettered access to weapons of war that kill with brutal efficiency.
There is insufficient political will to look for a cure.
Wave hands in horror, wash blood from collective hands, rinse and repeat.
Nothing to see, move along now.
Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
(Score: 0, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday June 21 2015, @12:26AM
This is only stoking discussion because the killer had a stupid haircut and dumb facial expressions. And also to divide and conquer Americans who may have more important things to discuss now.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by dusty monkey on Sunday June 21 2015, @01:34AM
It's another example of the American Disease™
This guy killed 29, injured 130 [cnn.com] .... with a knife, in a train station, in a country with extremely strict gun control laws.
(thats not a typo.. killed 29.. injured 130 .. one hundred fucking thirty injured)
Rampage killings [wikipedia.org] are neither unique to America nor places with a lack of gun control laws.
Liberals always believe that they've got it all figured out, but often seem to not have even the basic facts straight, and when confronted with this they just find other reasons to support the same conclusions.
- when you vote for the lesser of two evils, you are still voting for evil - stop supporting evil -
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @06:14AM
Oh, how fast the language evolves: we're using now singulars for... what...less than a dozen people? From the quoted link:
So, in one corner 10 persons manage to kill 29 and injure 130 in a busy train station. In the other corner, 1 (one) puny looking guy shoots dead 9 others, stopped because no others were handy.
Place your bets on where the next rampage is most likely to be announced.
Ready? So... who bet West Philadelphia [foxnews.com] - 7 wounded in random shooting?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @08:19AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @09:06PM
Red herring. What does the fact that knives can be used to kill people have to do with the fact that guns are extremely deadly weapons with no use outside of murder? And the fact that gun control laws aren't 100% perfectly effective isn't relevant either. Insulators and conductors aren't perfect either, so does that mean we shouldn't bother using them? Should we stop using combustion engines because their efficiency is below 100%?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:30AM
We need to ban everyone but the wise government from having guns. [emphasis added]
I can't tell. Sarcasm right?
I don't trust my govt, AND I don't trust rednecks with guns-- but, I repeat myself.
As we disarm the general public, we need to disarm the police. We also need to severely punish (firing squad?) all those in power responsible for sending the military against civilians (has happened pretty frequently in the US, with civilian deaths in several of the incidents).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @03:23AM
That is all.
-- gewg_
(Score: 3, Informative) by fadrian on Sunday June 21 2015, @12:02AM
You may now ignore the article should it offend you so much.
That is all.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @12:03AM
Now, now... look, mate, to a great majority of the world, USofA is "Planet America" - something a bit alien to the idea of "everyday-life" as understood by the rest of this world, and most of the time not in a flattering way.
Seems that a great deal of weirdness emanates from there and heaps of really alien things happens there.
In this light, I don't see why the hell Obama's remark of "At some point as a country, we have to reckon with what happens... You don't see this kind of murder, on this scale, with this kind of frequency in other advanced countries on earth." is not interesting or should be confined into the PC section
(btw, "political correctness" is another thing that seemed to have entered in the world culture mainly through US. Until then it was specific to stalinist dogma [wikipedia.org]. Weird, huh?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by fleg on Sunday June 21 2015, @01:49AM
i'm getting bored with this comment. maybe it would be a good idea to have a link to the FAQ (where this is addressed) on the comment posting page? something like "Please read the FAQ before posting".
(Score: 3, Interesting) by janrinok on Sunday June 21 2015, @06:49AM
To a very limited extent, I agree with you. But the problem will be resolved once we have the nexuses up and running. Then stories such as this, which don't appeal to everybody, can be on a nexus that you will be able to ignore. Basically, you will be allowed to focus your attention on stories that fit into specific categories and ignore those that do no interest you. However, the weekend trolls are about and they have significantly increased the noise level in this discussion.
There is a very serious question being asked in TFA. In Switzerland, the majority of homes have military weapons available to them. The population is part of the that country's defence force. However, killings by shooting are quite rare there. Why is that? What is the difference between the Swiss and Americans that means that it seems that we are frequently hearing about such events in one country but not in the other? The same can be said of other European nations. Even in those European countries which regularly have armed police patrolling, the number of killings per capita is less than in the US. It is not for me, as a European, to say what could/should be done to change this but it is right for Obama to ask the question of his fellow countrymen. If this is the type of nation that the majority of Americans want to live in, then so be it. It is your choice. But for many who are not Americans, it seems strange that a country that has so much ability and potential cannot solve this problem.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @08:29AM
US has about 89 guns per 100 people; Switzerland 46 per 100. The US gun homicide rate is actually pretty low and has been decreasing since the beginning of the 90's -- it's a safe country, unless you live in the ghetto and get caught in a gang fight [washingtonpost.com]. There aren't actually all that many of those even, though.
There are, however, a lot of reporters and 24-hour news channels. Any incident will get plastered on the media and covered constantly, which gives the impression that America is going to hell in a handbasket. Less than one percent of homicides (gun-related or not) involved three or more victims [pewsocialtrends.org], so the rampage-shooting thing is really, really rare. You have a 1:325 chance of dying by gun-related homicide, but a 1:246 chance of dying by falling down, 1:121 of dying by suicide, 1:100 of dying in an auto accident, and 1:7 of dying by cancer. But, cancer and falling down don't make for good news stories.
If you really want to save American lives, doing something about guns isn't the answer. Working to prevent heart disease and cure cancer is. If black lives really matter to you, and if statistics also actually matter to you, then fight against heart disease, cancer, stroke, and diabetes [cdc.gov]: those are the real killers out there, the ones that actually are going to get you one day, most likely. The fact that black people are at an elevated risk of illness is a real disparity in America. Your chance of dying in a white-supremacist's shooting rampage is, on the other hand, infinitesimally small.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Sunday June 21 2015, @11:24AM
I couldn't agree more. I believe that you intended that to be a generic 'you' and not addressed at me personally. I am not an American and do not feel qualified to tell others how they should sort out their country.
So you would expect that the number of shootings per capita in Switzerland would be about half that found in America. But it is one tenth. There is something else other than just the availability of weapons. So, ignoring taking weapons away from people, there is still something that can be done to improve the situation.
I am not knowledgeable about US geography, and I didn't realise that the latest incident took place in a ghetto. The only pictures I have seen of it have been on TV, and the area doesn't look too deprived in those images. I accept your comments regarding the ease by which news can now be disseminated and the way that it can distort public perceptions.
(Score: 5, Informative) by FatPhil on Sunday June 21 2015, @12:00PM
The USA, however, instead just has guns fuck yeah.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @05:27PM
I am not knowledgeable about US geography, and I didn't realise that the latest incident took place in a ghetto.
There you go, confusing individual events with data. See http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/19/the-racial-divide-in-americas-gun-deaths/ [washingtonpost.com], which the GP linked, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide [wikipedia.org] which he/she didn't link. Homicide in the US is very much racially segregated: 93% of blacks killed are killed by blacks. The rate of death by firearm for blacks is twice that for whites. Taken together, that means that blacks are much more likely to murder each other with a firearm than whites are to murder each other, and that it's very unlikely that a white man will shoot a black man. In fact, a white man is five times more likely to commit suicide by gun, a black man five times more likely to be murdered with one, and by another black man at that.
The latest incident does not conform to that pattern. Not all data does: there are always outliers. The events in Charleston were highly abnormal. They were the work of an abnormal mind bent on doing something far out of line with the rest of society. Do not mistake that for the norm.
Here's the real problem: you can't effectively guard against highly abnormal events, the "black swans," to use the metaphor common in the financial world. You can, however, use data to predict where resources can be more effectively invested to prevent predictable tragedies. Given that the likelihood of developing diabetes or cancer or heart disease is far greater than that of dying by a homicide, resources need to be invested in those diseases rather than in the edge case of gun-related deaths.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @07:21PM
Something your analysis does not take into account is the impact on the living.
People who die of diabetes and heart disease tend to be significantly older than the people who die by firearms. They have already contributed a significant amount to their communities. And when they die, the scars left on the living are much more shallow because although premature, the death is neither sudden nor intimidating for the bereaved.
Also, false dichotomy. Working to fix one problem doesn't preclude working to fix the other.
(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Monday June 22 2015, @02:37AM
I am not knowledgeable about US geography, and I didn't realise that the latest incident took place in a ghetto.
The shooter had nothing to do with the ghetto, it was a white person who came from many miles away and chose a church frequented almost entirely by African-Americans.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @09:11PM
Fallacy of relative privation. So what there are things that are worse? That doesn't mean guns aren't a problem that needs to be addressed too.