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The New York Times has a story that delves into a conundrum faced by Europeans: Why are there few, if any, technology companies from Europe with the size and reach of American tech giants like Google, Amazon, and Apple?
The article hypothesizes that, even though employment regulations and other business and legal factors play a role, it's actually deeply-embedded cultural differences that are the primary cause, citing less aversion to risk-taking, less stigma from business failures such as bankruptcies, little or no stigma from leaving and rejoining a company which is seen as disloyal in European cultures, more acceptance of disruptive innovation, and a less rigid educational system that allows individuals to find their own form of success.
(Considering the many indications that US schools now train for tests, not knowledge, perhaps alternatives to school are more attractive.)
Original Submission
(Score: 2) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @12:42PM
Ah, I forgot... The original thing I wanted to post was different and hence the title, but here is the deal: the consumer and sevice culture never really came to europe either.
Since companies could not sell random junk, like communication equipment, computers, and weapons to the general population, the "consumer" was not really born, until more modern times... 1990+ i would say.
For strategic, political reasons the governments had a big hand in TV, magazine production - there was no room or need for competition and "innovation" in that field.
Same goes for communication equipment, and a lot of things that can be covered by the word "service"...
So, history is bit of a burden here...
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 21 2015, @01:17PM
Your first post is too dramatic compared to reality, while the second does indeed make sense considering history.
The dividing lines in Europe are not only ethnical. They do exist but are not nearly as strong as you make them believe. Maybe you have too much attention to Spain (Good lord they are an unruly mass) or to United Kingdom but other countries do not have separatist motives.
There are rivalries, and economical and political divides inside each country but they are not the bloodthirsty kind. Specially the newer generations educated with Erasmus and Ryanair, have become much more open to different European cultures. It takes time, and the historical heritage being so prominent is due to the huge voting mass the elderly people represent in Europe. Go check the articles where the politicians prefer to keep the current pensions subsidized with the money that should go to future generations.They don't really have the power to motivate youngsters to raise arms against each other. You, yourself, say that since the 1990s things have been changing...well Erasmus student exchange started in 1989. I don't think it is a coincidence things have been improving.
I work directly with Erasmus students (Erasmus Student Network) in my university and while they sometimes have their misgivings with my country and vice-versa, I don't see them as hating my country. On the contrary, even though my country and university are normally the last of their choices, the idea I have is that they loved them. May be it is my perception but they would have to be very cynical in a large scale to invite their families and friends to come here or re-visit on later years. I see the same in other Universities.
Also, speaking with local government institutions they also perceive Erasmus students as being very important to refresh the local civil society.
My point of view as an European.
(Score: 1, Troll) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @01:33PM
No, it is not dramatic. The clean and hard nazis in uniforms, the unshaved cold eyed russians, the hard slavs...
The people in the wars and the people living todays everday is the same people.
When you talk about people, talk so that your statement covers as much of the history as possibile.
Just look at yugoslavia 25 years ago and russia today... It is falling apart. And everyone is afraid of war in europe because everyone knows how hard and rutless we are.
Secondly, erasmus, or exchange students are an entirelly different thing. They are people with a certain mindset, who want to go abroad and meet "new and interesting people". Most of them are naive.
As educated immigrant, I can barely see the people I knew as child in these students, when they come from "my place". They are different. Sorry, bro, but you can not make any strategic assessment of the "thruth" based on exchange students...
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 4, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Monday June 22 2015, @08:44AM
I think you are full of shit.
> No, it is not dramatic. The clean and hard nazis in uniforms, the unshaved cold eyed russians, the hard slavs...
> The people in the wars and the people living todays everday is the same people
You're saying that Germany is still full of Nazis? That Germans are all "Clean and hard"? Go to Germany. Meet some people. They are some of the most welcoming, humorous and fun-loving folks you'll ever encounter.
It seems like everything you've written is based on misinformed old stereotypes and panic-mongering Daily Fail articles. I don't think you have a bloody clue what you're talking about.
> Just look at yugoslavia 25 years ago and russia today... It is falling apart. And everyone is afraid of war in europe
Everyone's afraid of war in Europe because WAR IS FUCKING HORRIBLE. There's nothing more to it than that. Europe learned that lesson the hard way, over and over again, and these last 50 years or so we've actually being doing something positive about it rather than endlessly repeating history.
> because everyone knows how hard and rutless we are.
Sorry to burst your nationalistic bubble here but no one country or continent has a monopoly on ruthlessness. It was the Brits who started the firebombing campaigns of the second world war, but there is a far longer list of nastiness behind that. The Spanish butchered millions on the new world in pursuit of gold. The French showed how ruthless they can be during the revolution. Africans, Asians, Americans - I could give you list of atrocities as long as your arm from pretty much any nation on Earth. What's your point? That people can be bastards and that war is hell? Not news. But people - the same people even - can also be warm, inviting and compassionate.
You get the former when people don't know or trust their neighbours, when they let themselves be informed by propaganda and stereotypes rather than direct contact with other peoples. The solution to that is to get people out of their borders and meeting as many different folks as they can. The internet has helped a lot in that as well. See how much more popular opposition there is to every war now.
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Sunday June 21 2015, @09:13PM
While you and I, and many students, and most of our peers that we talk to feel that way, we're not the only ones that have been brought up in the last 20 years. It's not just old people that voted for UKIP, or for the Wilders and Le Pens of the world. Danish People’s Party have just done very well in Denmark, Golden Dawn, the NDP, and Jobbik are all attracting a disenfranchised youth.
Youth unemployment is terrible, house prices put the dream of owning a cardboard box out of reach for practically everyone, there will be no state pension, public services are being cut left right and centre, and there is little to look forward to for many people other than reality TV on a saturday night and perhaps a week in Shagalouf.
Immigrants are easy to blame, stirred up by hate rags like the daily mail who pander to the xenophobic "don't forget the war" bunch of pensioners.
There won't be a europe-wide country-level war, but unless there's major change there will be europe-wide fighting. While the poor overthrowing the rich may keep diamond merchants awake at night, they'll easily flee to the Cayman islands.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:00PM
You are either joking or ignorant: does Minitel [wikipedia.org] ring any bell? What about Spectrum ZX [wikipedia.org] or the slightly earlier BBC Micro [wikipedia.org]? You know EVE Online had Elite [wikipedia.org] as inspiration, which was written first for BBC Micro or Acorn Electron [wikipedia.org]?
MikroMikko [wikipedia.org] and NMT - 1G mobiles [wikipedia.org] from Nokia?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:09PM
Do you understand the word "Europe"?
It is not just a couple of countries in the west...
Have you heard about the "cold war"?
The fundaments that led to these big US tech companies started already 1950ies, and a lot under the 1800:s...
I am talking of times that span 50 to 200 years, and you come with some shit that is 15 - 30 years old?
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:28PM
In regards with East Europe/cold war: yeah, I still remember the food shortages in my late childhood/early teen years, due to massive export of food to our "friendly neighbour, from where the bright light of communism comes, CCCP".
What does it have to do with the presumably non-existent EU Silicon Valley?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:32PM
I SAID:
Since companies could not sell random junk, like communication equipment, computers, and weapons to the general population, the "consumer" was not really born, until more modern times... 1990+ i would say.
IN EUROPE. this is the sentence that you quoted.
Is this not the truth?
Did we have some serious public electronics market in europe (east + west) prior to this date?
What is the problem?
In the Big Europe we did not become "consumers" of tech until the 1990+ years.
I do not understand you.
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:54PM
You say UK, France an Finland (the 3 examples I quoted) were not Europe in 1980?
I'll grant to you, not the entire Europe had access to tech gizmos and related services, but... not even today one would pretend that the entire USA is a source of technological progress. Heck, have a look at the mobile coverage map [opensignal.com] and you'll see areas of "rural backwater": what good it would be to buy a mobile phone if you can't "consume" its services?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @03:34PM
Well, I say, I am entirelly certain that this is thanks to US technology culture.
Also, US compares best to Russia, not central and coastal europe. I do not think that solving communication and transportation problams across russia, from one end to the other, is even comparable to the rest of europe.
Same with usa. Rural areas is not 15-50km, as i understand, but 300+...
Secondly, I is irrelevant what a company does, when the entire chain of production/knowledge is not available in the same region.
Who makes the processors/electronics in the products that you mention? Nokia?
Who makes the OS, and the compilers they use?
Where is the programming language coming from?
In sweden, even Ericcson made computers, but abandoned it long time ago. Why?
They made mobile phones, then platforms, and abandoned it recently.
Nokia = Microsoft.
Let us rephraise the question then: assuming that I agree with your way of thinking, where are the things today, that we had?
Why do we not have a silicon valley today?
And a fun anecdote...
In sweden there are copper lines for phone. A lot of it, and they are good, and they can still carry internet with good speed.
Now, these phone lines have been there for a while, and it is the culture of this country to lay these really good lines, of most pristine quality. The chance you get a "no line free" on the swedish phone netwprk has always been close to 0. There is a lot of "star" formations in the swedish phone line.
Even the gsm towers used to use the ground cables. Dont know how they do today.
Why? Do these people have 1337 and interesting things to say with very short notice?
I had an interesting explanation from source i will not mention.
The swedish military decided to make a very reliable network, in the days.
Until some years ago, the phone company was still state owned.
That is why we have a serious amount of copper in the ground today.
So the phone coverage in west is not so strange. And, had very little with avarage consumers to do.
I can imagine that it was the case also in some other countries in the west, but it is not public knowledge.
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @03:55PM
Why would you need one?
Look, ARM [wikipedia.org] is European... thanks to Android, there are more ARM processors in this world than there are Intels.
Raspberry PI is European [wikipedia.org]
Arduino [wikipedia.org] is European
Alcatel [wikipedia.org] (which bought Bell Labs) is European
What's in Sillicon Valley now? A bunch of guys that invented "global taxi"? Or "show your privates, I'll show mine, this in the view of the whole world and we'll call it social media"?
Mate, Europe has much denser population, a more relaxed life-style and better public transport: if you want to meet your friend (and show the privates to each other) you don't need Facebook/Twitter/Uber, just go to a beer garden of your choice and listen to a jazz band (or a gypsy one if so you like), then pick which place you retreat, her or your's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @04:14PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture [wikipedia.org]
Bro, give credit where it belongs.
Arm is not actually manufactured enywhere in europe, the fabs or in other places. Also, the history of arm is a bit convoluted with a lot of US companies, as can be read on the wiki page...
I begun with the 68000, have not even heard of arm, until maybe 10 years ago...
What's in Sillicon Valley now? A bunch of guys that invented "global taxi"?
Unfortunately, a lot of talent that is not used as they should...
US, as it is today, is getting more and more defunct, but there is still an optimism inspiring amount of brainpower over there, so a "change" might actually lead to something constructive.
The tech industry in US also led to large amount of science fiction that in turn lead to concepts and debates whould not have come from europe.
No matter how you see it, europe lives in a dream that starts cracking up...
Some say people in US have their identity in God, in the Army, or in Tech...
In europe we have our identity in artists and composers now many decades dead, and in misinformation about one or other countries liberal lifestyle...
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @05:00PM
Let me cite an 17y+ movie [wikipedia.org]: "American components, Russian Components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!" So why does matter? If the Chinese are able to fabs without being able to design a CPU*, why is this a problem for someone who can design?
* not quite true [wikipedia.org], but surprise: BLX (the designer of Longsoon) is fabless. Guess who fabs them? STMicroelectronics [wikipedia.org], which
---
You are mistaken and, as I see, in a pessimistic mood (are you Russian? Even so, it's summer there, can't get a reason for the gloomy mood). Science and innovation takes place in Europe more that in US nowadays, US is wasting itself like hell in destructive endeavours (their fault, nobody pushed Bush into Iraq). I gave you the links before, have some others.
* Rosetta [wikipedia.org] landing on the comet is European
* 3D printed space thrusters [soylentnews.org] are European ("We produce 150–200 thrusters in this class per year for different customers")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Informative) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @07:56PM
interview with the maker of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jOJl8gRPyQ [youtube.com]
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 1, Troll) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:16PM
also do not troll my fucking conversations with products that are built on american chips.
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:30PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday June 21 2015, @08:11PM
with European products that are built on american chips
FIFY.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Dr Spin on Monday June 22 2015, @08:18AM
Especially not when using a mobile phone with a CPU designed in Europe (ARM).
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by zugedneb on Sunday June 21 2015, @02:24PM
With this type of arguments you can point at the swedish Jas military plane, and say it is elite european poduct.
Ok, the engine might be Rolls Royce.
But the electreonics in it?
Elite europena FPGA with double elite european vector processors?
And the books the engineers read when they went to school?
Elite programming and electronics titles form europe or US?
And was it the elite european population thet led to the existence to those books and that technology, or was the existence of those based on US mechanics and electronics culture that started probably in the beginning of the century?
old saying: "a troll is a window into the soul of humanity" + also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax