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To add to the other Greece Breaking News story (Greece Defaults, Still Wants Bailout)....
The Ars Writes:
Thom Feeney, a London shoe shop worker who started a campaign to raise €1.6 billion (that's US $1.78 billion). Feeney's IndieGoGo campaign, started just two days ago, has already raised an astonishing €478,575 (or $533,010) from more than 30,000 people.
"All this dithering over Greece is getting boring," Feeney wrote on his IndieGoGo page. "Why don't we the people just sort it instead?" He added that to come up with the €1.6 billion, every member of Europe would only have to give €3 each (well, technically you'd only need to collect from members of the European Union; that's not even counting any potentially generous Swiss or Norwegian people.)
The campaign has six days left to raise money. If €1.6 billion isn't raised, all the donors will get back their money.
This afternoon, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) declared that Greece was officially in arrears, but it has not yet declared that Greece is in default. Technically, the IMF could offer Greece an extension of its debt repayment obligation. On July 5, the country will hold a national referendum on whether to sign a deal demanding even stricter austerity from the nation.
But, if Europeans all chip in, maybe we can just put this silly bailout business behind us.
Original Submission
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @12:19PM
The Greeks are a bunch of dead beats. Pay your bills or lower your standard of living. If you can't pay it back, don't borrow it.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @12:34PM
they did lower their standard of living, and rather massively:
- both wages and pensions went down 40-60% across the board,
- they lowered governement expenses by 20% in 5 years (absolotue figures)
- they also have near 30% unemployment and 50+% unemployed youth
- 45% of pensioners now get less then the poverty line
- health coverage is now so bad that 'doctors without borders' is the main provider
- they lost a 3th of their small businesses
- suicides rates are at record levels
(you can actually find the above numbers in mainstream sources, but only in the in-depth documentaries)
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @12:37PM
They did all this after decades of corruption and profligate social spending. The barn door was open and the horse gone at the turn of the century.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:38PM
You're reply and Greece's situation is akin to person A being choked to death by person B while person B keeps yelling: "why are you letting yourself be choked... start breathing again..."
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:50PM
It's completely self-inflicted. Nobody made them join the EU, borrow money, or spend it all. No one is choking them.
(Score: 1) by sce7mjm on Thursday July 02 2015, @07:50PM
Think you'll find they didn't actually qualify to join the euro. So actually they were encouraged to join. Probably by the same people who lent them the money, and don't forget what they were buying with the money, military equipment from Germany, civil engineering products from the rest of Europe. The lender doesn't want the lender to go bust, this has been a political nightmare from beginning to end. The lenders want the interest and the capital with no risk. So actually both sides should suck it up.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @09:33PM
And yet, they continue to spend huge amounts of money on military, when the money is needed elsewhere. Greece has no fucking idea how to handle money, and that's the root of the problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:22PM
Yes, and everyone knew about this. The country has been close to a debt crisis ever since it fought off the Ottomans nearly two centuries ago. Yet despite all that, they were still allowed to join the Euro zone and they still were allowed to borrow at inconceivably low interest rates.
You can't place blame on the Greeks alone. The other prospective Euro member states of the day are just as much to blame. As are the financiers of Greece's debt. All of them should have known better.
Also consider the fact that up until the eighties, it was not uncommon for countries to be acquitted of part of their debt because the burden of interest had simply become too big. Somehow, that apparently has become a no-no since.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:34PM
Prior to the crisis, Greece was spending less of their GDP on social welfare than either France or Germany [ft.com], the same countries that are currently berating the Greeks for being profligate social spenders.
What's particularly dumb about all of this is that Greece was prepared to make loan payments that were going to chip down the national debt very slowly, but the problem was that Germany in particular was unwilling to accept their rate of repayment. To use a car loan analogy: Let's say you borrowed $12,000 to buy a car at 5% interest over 3 years, in 36 monthly installments of $350. You contract a severe illness, and you find yourself so strapped for cash that you can only come up with $315. Now, the $315 is enough to pay back the loan with more interest in 42 months, but the bank decides that instead of accepting your $315 and negotiating terms you can actually manage, they will instead refuse to accept your partial payment and will repossess your car. And now you can't get to work to do the job that convinced the bank you could afford the loan in the first place, and so your credit is in shambles and the bank didn't get their money back. And the bank is saying you are solely responsible for this when they could have accepted the $315 a month, tacked on some extra interest on the end, and eventually gotten their $12,000 back.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @12:44PM
What a very stupid thing to say... The politicians who borrowed the money are not the little people who are expected to pay it back. And who the fuck lends billions of dollars to dead beats? Part of the blame certainly lies on creditors.
Here's a documentary you might find interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtocracy [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @12:52PM
The creditors, largely European banks, were foolish enough to lend the money, but that doesn't absolve the Greeks from the contract they entered into willingly and also foolishly.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Thursday July 02 2015, @01:10PM
The current creditors were previously fooled by Greece helped by some US swindlers [spiegel.de].
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:10PM
When you take on a loan, the offset of the risk that is taken on by the lender is what they call the interest. That is why it exists: I take on risk to lend you money which you may not pay me back so I'm taking on interest so that I cover that risk. All in all and over all the loans I make, I'll come out ahead with my risk covered and a good bit of extra profit out of it.
I don't have a problem with anyone making a profit, but interest is not some inalienable right you as a holder of capital have to increase your owned pool of money.
The creditors did lend money to Greece and received interest for years. If all went well, the lenders would have made a nice, big fat wad of cash. Sadly it didn't but it was the creditors that took on the risk with the promise of interest.
Years ago, there was a housing crisis. You may remember remnants of it in the back of your head. Banks took on huge risks and everyone balked at bailing them out. Everyone inherently felt that something was morally wrong with that. Everyone was convinced that the banks got what they deserved, they took on the bet and lost. But we still bailed them out to the dismay of many because 'the financial system would collapse otherwise'.
And how exactly is this situation different from the housing crisis? Banks and lenders took on huge risk by lending Greece money and now may not be paid back. Once again there are threats of 'whole systems collapsing' (Euro[pe]) if we don't do *something*.
Essentially, it's the same problem: lenders took on a bet that they would get incredibly nicely rewarded for when all went well but for which they weren't willing to bear the consequences in case the bet went sour.
But there is a difference this time, and that is that it's not a couple of million individuals who can't pay back their mortgage; /those/ guys were an amorphous blob that you can't easily point at with your little wagging finger. Those guys were your average neighbour who's "a cool guy". You don't want to hurt Joe Schmo who's daughter is the girlfriend of your son, no sir-ee...
This time, it's a country, a different country than yours, it's a single entity. Something very easily pointed at and deamonized: "Ahhh.. those no-good, lazy, early-retiring Greeks.... they got what they deserved... let them suffer and rot in hell." That makes you feel good because you can attribute blame without having to consider the different factors that lead up to it.
Slipping into this kind of thinking is so much easier and so much more satisfying than actually thinking deeply about the situation.
Now I'm not saying that for years, Greece didn't live outside of its financial means. I think it is well established that they did. But I think that it's just a tad too easy to have that be the be-all-and-end-all argument in the discussion.
What we don't hear about is how Europe never knew about this. I seriously doubt that Europe didn't know this. They go through the budgets with fine-tooth combs and penalize countries who submit budgets that are not in line with regulations. Either these people didn't do their job or they ignored the warning signs. I find the argument that "Greece lied" to be a very weak one, especially because they 'found out about it' when it is super-convenient for them. Based on what I hear around the Commission, Europe knew, and never decided to do anything!
Because all was well in Euro-land. It was boom-times and no one raised any questions when the going was good. Now that the going is not so good, they need a scapegoat that they can bring to the altar and slit its throat in plain sight for everyone to see, just to show people that they are doing something. This 'sacrifice' is going to be equally effective as the human sacrifices made by the Aztecs back in the day.
But Greece is suffering in the process which makes us feel good. And it just ties in nicely with the perceived need for atonement in order to be 'cleansed of this badness'. In order to be helped you have to suffer first. Suffering is good because it makes us feel better about ourselves.
Ugh, call me a cynic...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @06:21PM
When you take on a loan, the offset of the risk that is taken on by the lender is what they call the interest.
That is not entirely accurate. Interest is not used to offset default risks. If there is some risk the borrower will default, money is not lent at low interest (opposite of the case of Greece, which hid its real debt using derivatives). And if money is lent, the interest rate is very high making it infeasible for the borrower. What interest do you think you will charge Greece if you lend it money today (considering there is a high chance you will never get your money back)? And what interest would you charge France or Germany today (with no chance of default)?
However, interest payments can be used to buy credit default swaps and other derivatives in case the borrower defaults. But this is Europe, so I'm not sure they use CDS's much.
Based on what I hear around the Commission, Europe knew, and never decided to do anything
So now its Europe's fault?
Suffering is good because it makes us feel better about ourselves
But they are not children and they knew they had to pay borrowed money back. When its time to pay, its time to pay and no amount of noise will save you. Same rules for all.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 03 2015, @12:58AM
Interest is not used to offset default risks. If there is some risk the borrower will default, money is not lent at low interest
Nonsense. Someone the other day mentioned Argentina both its multiple defaults over the decades and the current 10+% interest rates it pays for debt. A replier noted that the unusually high interest rate was precisely due to the default risk premium that Argentina had to pay in order to borrow that money. And that's pretty much what you say in the second sentence. Of course, if the borrower is flaky enough, then no one will lend without collateral at any interest rate.
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Friday July 03 2015, @01:27AM
they need a scapegoat that they can bring to the altar and slit its throat in plain sight for everyone to see, just to show people that they are doing something.
What might actually be closer to the truth is, though:
they need an example that they can bring to the altar and slit its throat in plain sight for everyone to see, just to show people that they are doing something wrong if they think they can elect any change.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @01:03PM
Actually, a big part of the problem is rampant tax evasion in Greece.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @01:37PM
Thank god no one does that in amerika
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @01:55PM
Avoidance ≠ Evasion with regards to taxes
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:15PM
Avoidance: the act of avoiding
Evasion: to avoid doing
Avoidance != Evasion ... An interesting theory you have there...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:58PM
Here's what the IRS says about it. [irs.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @05:27PM
You're being a pedant...
My point is that the net result of either is that no taxes are paid that are due/expected. One is 'legal' (but immoral) the other one is illegal (and immoral)
(Score: 2) by Tork on Thursday July 02 2015, @07:12PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 3, Insightful) by K_benzoate on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:36PM
From what I can tell, criminal tax evasion is when the poor and the middle class do it. When you're rich enough to hire lobbyists to rewrite the tax code in your favor, that's mere tax avoidance--a proud and perfectly legal American tradition!
Climate change is real and primarily caused by human activity.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @06:17PM
Oh, I see what you did there! VERY clever. I can see you smugly looking around your surroundings with a self-satisfied smile when you typed that, hoping that someone will come by so that you can let them know what a clever little dickins you are!
(Score: 2, Interesting) by srobert on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:30PM
The Greek nation is like a guy who "borrowed" money to buy medicine for a sick kid. He would promise anything at the time to get the money to save the kid's life. So, he promised to kill one of his other kids, as a condition of the loan. The sick kid got his medicine. Now it's time to pay up. What do you think he's going to do?
What I think is needed are more liberal alternatives to organizations like the IMF, that are demanding privatization, austerity, tax cuts for billionaires, and other economically disastrous policies, as conditions for lending money to nations in crisis situations.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:14PM
Greece is like a guy who borrowed money to buy an xbox off Craigslist.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by TheRaven on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:24PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @05:41PM
Do you really not know how easy it is to have a soft currency? Even the Greeks know how to do it. Do you really believe Germany doesn't know and instead invented the Euro and handed over control of its currency to an Italian because otherwise nobody would have kept buying stuff made in Germany?
(Score: 4, Informative) by maxwell demon on Thursday July 02 2015, @09:00PM
Actually the last thing Germany would want is a soft Euro. What do you think why Germany fought so hard for the current rules? It's because of the fear of replacing the hard DM with a soft Euro. So they fought for rules that were meant to ensure that the Euro would be just as hard as the DM.
If you want to scare a German, tell him that the Euro is getting soft.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.