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Electric racing cars are in vogue right now. The first Formula E championship just concluded in London (sadly the Ars-sponsored car did not win), and this side of the pond saw an electric vehicle win the prestigious Pikes Peak International Hill Climb in Colorado, setting a new record in the process. Rhys Millen took his Drive eO PP03 to the top of the mountain in 9:07.022, beating rival Nobuhiro "Monster" Tajima by more than 20 seconds. The consequences of getting a corner wrong and going over the side don't bear thinking about.
The annual Pikes Peak International Hill Climb in Colorado is the second-oldest race in the US. It first took place in 1916, and it's a unique challenge for man and machine. Starting at Mile 7 on Pikes Peak Highway, cars race one at a time up the side of Pikes Peak, completing 156 turns in 12.4 miles (20km). It may be familiar to you from Gran Turismo 2, featuring prominently in that game, and indeed Polyphony Digital sponsored this year's race, making us wonder if the iconic event will reappear in GT7, whenever that happens to arrive.
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Electric vehicles (EVs) in particular have done well since the resurfacing. From the starting line at 9,390 feet (2,862m) above sea level, the cars climb another 4,720 feet (1,440m) to the summit, causing even forced induction engines to lose power as oxygen molecules become fewer and farther between. But electric motors don't have the same altitude problem, making just as much power and torque in a vacuum as they do at sea level. Consequently, it's become a place for people to test out new EV technology.
Original Submission
(Score: 2) by AndyTheAbsurd on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:18PM
The range thing is, in most cases, pretty much bullshit. The segment of the population that drives more than 200 miles a day (outside of things like delivery drivers) is vanishingly small, and IIRC the average round-trip commute is under 30 miles. So an electric car with a 100-mile range would more than suit most people most of the time, and they can use the money that they save on gas to rent a car (or travel by train or plane) for anything that they need to go further.
The cost thing...well, most people only see the upfront cost of a thing, not the total cost of owning and using product throughout its life - which explains the popularity of $40 inkjet printers that require $60 worth of ink cartridges every few months to function over $200 laser printers that require a single $40 toner cartridge once every year or so.
Please note my username before responding. You may have been trolled.
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:19PM
The range thing is 100% not bullshit. Granted, I do 200+ mile trips maybe 2-3 times a year. But I can only afford 1 car, and if you're telling me to rent a car for my long trips then lets just say no. My car is much more comfy than any rental I'll get for a decent amount of $$$, and renting a car for more than an overnighter destroys any cost savings I might see driving an electric car.
Why not take my friend's car, you ask? Because she bought the electric car and only my gas guzzler can get us there and back with a minimum of fuss.
When the dust settled America realized it was saved by a porn star.
(Score: 2) by AndyTheAbsurd on Thursday July 02 2015, @06:11PM
You did notice that I said pretty much bullshit, and acknowledged that there are cases where that's a valid argument against electric cars? Just because in your specific case an electric car wouldn't work well, doesn't mean that they wouldn't work well for a large proportion of the population. But also see my reply to your earlier post [soylentnews.org].
Please note my username before responding. You may have been trolled.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Thursday July 02 2015, @08:32PM
The range thing is, in most cases, pretty much bullshit.
Not even remotely.
The segment of the population that drives more than 200 miles a day (outside of things like delivery drivers) is vanishingly small, and IIRC the average round-trip commute is under 30 miles.
The segment of the population that is unable to recharge their car overnight EVERY night, however is MASSIVE. 200 miles a day? Sure that's pretty rare... but it takes me 5 minutes to fill my car, once a week. The reason range is a concern is because charging AVAILABILITY and charging TIME are concerns. If I can fill my electric car in 5 minutes every few days pretty much no matter where I am then 200 miles is less of an issue. But if I know that I have to have plugged in 4 hours a day, every day... that becomes a concern because if I don't do that for a couple days... the car is going to be running low, and an unscheduled charge is a big chunk of wasted time.
Further 200 miles is really low. Even my Porsche 911 gets upwards of 350miles on a tank. (And I feel like I'm constantly putting gas in it.) My other car is easily 550-600.
The cost thing...well, most people only see the upfront cost of a thing, not the total cost of owning and using product throughout its life
We don't really know what the TCO is of electric is. We can estimate it but the tools to do so are rough and have a lot of unknowns. We don't really know how electrics depreciate; or what a replacement battery set is going to cost. That's a big unknown.
We also don't know what is going to happen to the prices of fuel vs electricity over the next 10-15 years. I fully expect as electric gains momentum that the price of electricity will go up, and even more importantly that fuel taxes are going to get shaken up. I expect they will move to a per-mile model rather than a per-gallon model; because it would be unfair for electrics to get a free infrastructure paid for by gasoline users and if people were shifting to electric, the fuel taxes would be a dwindling revenue source -- government WILL act to recapture that revenue. (And honestly, SHOULD.)
So if you calculate spending more upfront for an electric today, because you'll save X$ per year on fuel vs electricity; and break even in 9 years... that's great. But if the price of electricity is creeping up, while the reduced demand due to a shift towards electric cars holds gasoline prices relatively steady and then government flips the tax rules around to recapture the fuel taxes you were "evading" then suddenly your break even point gets kicked a lot further down the line. Meanwhile the range is starting to drop... 200 miles brand new is ok... but 10 years later maybe its only 150 or even 100? And if the looming cost of battery replacements are in the $10k+ range, a 10 year old electric vehicle might have no residual value; whereas a gasoline car at 10 years old... might easily still hold 35% or more of its MSRP; and if its in good shape will run another 10+ years.
And I haven't even talked about the cost of installing a charger at home. Will that ever need maintenance? Will that work with my next car as-is? Is this stuff all standardized? (And the fact that most people don't have one; and many park outside, or on the street and can't install one -- will that also affect the reaslability of the vehicle? Probably.)
Is an electric car going to save you money? Maybe. The point is we just don't know.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday July 03 2015, @02:03PM
Do you plug in your smartphone every night? Do you grouse about that, or are you used to it? It's the same with EVs. You get used to plugging it in every night. After the first week you don't think about it anymore.
The fast chargers cost about $500. Four hours to fully recharge is not a big deal when you watch TV for 3 hours and sleep for 8.
Will the charger plug fit your next EV? Who cares? That's what after-market products are for.
You also ignored the growing trend of people putting solar panels on their roofs, so betting on electricity rates going through the roof as EV usage grows is far from a sure thing. I suspect that the two trends will be rather mutually reinforcing in the same way that the oil industry and car industry have been, or Intel and MS have been. So the EV may or may not save you money in the long run (though I personally bet it will, because you have to factor in maintenance, political instability's effect on the price of oil, etc), but who cares? EVs are more fun to drive. They accelerate as fast as top-of-the-line gas cars and have great braking power. They're awesome.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Friday July 03 2015, @08:44PM
Do you plug in your smartphone every night?
No. I don't. I get 2+ days out of my smartphone. So forgetting to charge now and again isn't the end of the world. I also have an outlet next to my bed, so its not an issue.
I don't think you realize how many people park in parkades, outside, and on the street. And how many people with garages routinely have one or more spots filled up with stuff and end up parking outside. One of my neighbors has a Datsun 240 in pieces in his 2-car garage; I don't think he's been able to park his daily driver in his garage for years.
The fast chargers cost about $500.
The charger itself. Now what about getting a 240 volt outlet in your garage? Lots of houses are old. Lots of garages are detached. And of course that's all assuming you have a garage to start with.
Four hours to fully recharge is not a big deal when you watch TV for 3 hours and sleep for 8.
Its a much bigger deal if it needs the charge when I'm half way home from work. My phone on the otherhand, i can plug into my cigarette adapter if it doesn't quite make it to the end of a day. And my phone, if it does die, just means I miss a text to pick up milk on the way home... it doesn't actually delay me from getting home.
Will the charger plug fit your next EV? Who cares? That's what after-market products are for.
We were talking TCO. This is part of TCO. It also comes into play on the secondary market; since its an added expense for anyone else who might by the car used when I'm done with it. That's going to further limit who might buy it.
You also ignored the growing trend of people putting solar panels on their roofs, so betting on electricity rates going through the roof as EV usage grows is far from a sure thing.
Meh. The number of people living in dense housing where that's not an option far outnumber those that can. The number of geographic regions where solar on the roof is really that viable is quite small. The northwest Oregon, Washinton... are cloudy more days than they are sunny. Lots of places around the country are like that. A few regions are good for solar, for many the break-even point is a lot further out. And personal solar roof panels have their own TCO issues in terms of maintenance, replacement, obsolescence. Plus charging all those millions of cars happens in the evening and at night right... so... your going to buy another set of batteries to store your solar generation? And replace them from time to time too? TCO goes up big time.
Another issue that may work against electrics is that its new technology; better units are coming out rapidly, so the depreciation on your new EV will potentially be immense because while a 4 year old gasoline car is pretty much as good as a new one... 4 year old EV ... may be significantly less performant than a new one; and that will devalue the used one even further / faster.
There are several reports showing that electrics and hybrids depreciate faster than gasoline cars right now. That's going to impact your TCO calculations relative to gas car.
So the EV may or may not save you money in the long run
Agreed. That is my argument. It may. Or it may not. We don't know. There's a lot of unknowns. Its not a slam dunk like laser vs inkjet printers.
but who cares? EVs are more fun to drive.
The context of this thread is that EVs have a lower TCO and that its rational to buy them for economic reasons. "more fun" doesn't really enter into the equation here. But sure, I'm game, lets talk about the fun factor too...
They accelerate as fast as top-of-the-line gas cars and have great braking power.
"The 2015 Nissan Leaf accelerates, brakes, and handles adequately, but it's more appliance-like than involving."
http://www.thecarconnection.com/review/1093334_2015-nissan-leaf_performance_3 [thecarconnection.com]
I guess not all EVs are a Telsa. Just as not every gasoline car is a Porsche.
They're awesome.
Well... they're "adequate".
That's what $30,000 buys you in an EV right now : adequate.
You can find a lot more fun for a lot less money in a gasoline car.
Besides, why take sides on fun, if money is not the consideration, and we're looking for fun... then in my opinon the hybrids like Porsche 918 Spyder are where the win is... lets do both and turn it up to 11.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918 [wikipedia.org]
Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, ... this is where your "top-line-line-gas" cars are going right now.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday July 03 2015, @10:22PM
Germany has been going gangbusters with PV [fraunhofer.de]. Their latitude is higher than the lower 48 and their insolation is possibly worse than Seattle's. If they can do it, so can we.
Also, price-per-watt reached grid parity in a dozen American states a couple years ago, and the number of states where that is true has grown since. The efficiency of solar panels keeps climbing and the price keeps dropping. Barclays recently downgraded electric utility bond ratings in America [utilitydive.com] because of the increasing challenges of solar and home energy storage. They can see the writing on the wall and so should we all.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Friday July 03 2015, @11:08PM
Germany has been going gangbusters with PV.
If by gangbusters you mean they do less with solar than they do from anything else except for hydro. Yes, they've been ramping up though. But doubling almost nothing a few times over is still not much. They do more with wind, and bio fuels.
Their latitude is higher than the lower 48 and their insolation is possibly worse than Seattle's.
Possibly? Let's find out...
http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/industry-professionals/insolation-charts/ [solarpanelsplus.com]
The take away... Germany gets about as much sun as the USA east of the Mississippi. A lot more than Seattle.
The efficiency of solar panels keeps climbing and the price keeps dropping.
No argument there. The value proposition keeps getting better. That's one of the issues right now... waiting another year to buy-in may make more sense than buying in now.
Barclays recently downgraded electric utility bond ratings in America because of the increasing challenges of solar and home energy storage. They can see the writing on the wall and so should we all.
At best I think there is limited truth to it. There is no question that anything I can do with PV on my roof* -- they can do better, benefiting from economies of industrial scale. I fully expect the electric company to be able to build a solar farm, optimize panel placement, maximize energy capture, maintain it, and deliver me electricity cheaper than I can "do it myself" and they'll still turn a healthy profit at it.
At worst they go from invincible monopoly to being a little more competitive. Reason enough to downgrade them; but a far cry from your suggestion that personal panels are going to be their undoing.
* - which in my case is nothing, as I live in a condo strata can't modify my roof, but that's beside the point.