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posted by martyb on Monday July 06 2015, @08:57AM   Printer-friendly
from the getting-what-you-asked-for-may-not-be-getting-what-you-want dept.

The Greeks voted no to the European Union's terms, despite warnings from the EU that rejecting new austerity terms would set their country on a path out of the Eurozone. 62% voted "No" while 38% voted "Yes".


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  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @11:48AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @11:48AM (#205570)

    Bulgarian pensions are anything but reasonable. Retirees often have to cut spending from basic necessities like heating in winter for Christ's sake.

    PS: personally, although being a well-paid academic, I will have little to no state pension as a result of moving between too many countries, all with different (and ridiculous) rules about such things that usually do not benefit temporary residents. Therefore, I am rather insensitive to "oh dear, lets think of the the poor pensioner" arguments.

    Well, would look at the well-fed healthy intellectual telling people who have been seriously overworked on manual labor through their entire lives without getting anything close to adequate healthcare how they are being lazy.

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by moondrake on Monday July 06 2015, @02:12PM

    by moondrake (2658) on Monday July 06 2015, @02:12PM (#205628)

    Point well taken. But perhaps not so well made:

    I do not think I said pensions in Bulgaria are reasonable. They might be (as you say) unreasonable compared to what is needed. But they are more in line with the productivity and economy of the country. Greece simply has not enough production to pay for reasonable pensions. You need to get the money from somewhere.

    As for your second and somewhat hyperbolic point, this was in reply to my personal opinion. Your answer makes little sense though. You imply overworking on manual labor is worse than stress from not manual working (both is bad). Good or bad healthcare has little to do with the topic at hand (and I have both been uninsured at times (not enough $$$), as had a vastly overpriced health insurance because of working in 3rd world countries. Nevertheless, I still would have been fucked when something had happened in both cases).

    I merely said I felt pensions in many EU countries are badly implemented, not that people who cannot take care of themselves should be left out to die. Pensions are being reduced in many countries because they are far to large a tax burden on the working (including "underfed and nonintellectual manual laborers") populations. Private retirement homes swallow much of that money happily in many places. This problem is actually worse in rich countries (like Germany and France where a too big share of the population is near retirement age).

    The rules for being allowed a pension are even more silly. They sometimes do not even correlate with whether you actually worked or not. Most countries I have worked in require you lived in the country for a xx number of years before you can get a pension. Several demand I should live in the country in order to receive the pension. Getting back or transferring the tax I paid is difficult if not impossible, and even if you do, it does not stand in relation to the amount you would get when you actually get the pension. I would have rather not paid the tax, but that, obviously is not possible.

    In the past, people would save money, and children, gasp, would take care of their parents. A system that stimulates such things (tax and hassle free saving for your own pension, tax deduction or compensation for children taking care of parents) gets my vote. Pensions are holy in the eyes of many people (turmoil ensues every time the topic comes up in politics). Having none and being OK with that, I find it refreshing to be able to honestly claim we should just get rid of it. However, do not insult me by assuming I would not want to care for people who need support.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 07 2015, @12:20AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 07 2015, @12:20AM (#205920)

      In the past, people would save money, and children, gasp, would take care of their parents.

      As incomes fall while productivity soars, people are finding it harder and harder to save money.

      Right now, I work in TV, I'm one of their most experienced and highly skilled staff members, and my employer refuses to pay me more than unemployment (I earn less than $US120/week while unemployment is $US130/week). There are very few jobs in this place, so they just threaten to fire you and suck up the fine they'll have to pay if you threaten to kick up a stink. Multimillionaires can do that, and you have no choice because they've absolutely fucked the local economy.

      As far as my retirement goes, I'm saving $US7.59/week toward that end, but I only work 49 weeks of the year, so I'm really saving just $371.91 a year toward my retirement. That means, for every year I work now, I'm saving just one week of retirement. Right now, I've got 6 months at most saved up, and I have only 27 more years to save further.

      By the time I retire, I will be about 2 years away from dying.

      So, before you start bitching about people not living within their means, just remember that the wealthy fuck us at the drive through.

      I say, typing this on an 8 year old laptop I was given, on a borrowed internet connection, while I search for another job. I've only been looking for 5 years, after my employer robbed me of $64,000.

      • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Tuesday July 07 2015, @01:11AM

        by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Tuesday July 07 2015, @01:11AM (#205935) Homepage Journal

        It's not like I am unwilling to work, I have my own projects. I apply every single day both for contracts and for perm jobs.

        I am not alone in this, it is very common these days that those who are young enough to work either cannot get jobs, or are not paid enough to live independently. But in the US at least, those whose pensions were sensibly planned have enough money.

        --
        Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
      • (Score: 2) by moondrake on Tuesday July 07 2015, @07:50AM

        by moondrake (2658) on Tuesday July 07 2015, @07:50AM (#206021)

        Right. But, if we are discussing how things *should* be, is it not better than to fix the real problems?

        If anything, you actually made my point stronger. The powers that be put you in a situation where you cannot take care for yourself. This means you become very dependent on them. In such a world, a good pension becomes highly valued. Then it will be cut...

        The real problem is not the pension though, it is companies not valuing their employees.

        I do not have much advice for you. When I felt there was no future in my field in my country, I simply left. It was not perfect (I lost my pension), but I still think it was the best decision. It may not work for everybody though.