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from the crisco-and-a-shoehorn-to-get-more-in dept.
One of the few comforts we economy class fliers have left is our right to strap on noise-canceling headphones, stare at the back of the seat in front of us, and pretend we're on a beach, or at home, or in a modest-sized jail cell—anywhere, really.
Now that right is at risk. Zodiac Seats France, an industry supplier, has patented a new seating configuration that rips out the (horrid) middle seat in favor of one that faces the rear. With "Economy Class Cabin Hexagon," you get more neighbors than ever before—and they are right in your face.
The goal of the design is "to increase cabin density while also creating seat units that increase the space available at the shoulder and arm area." To be fair, it seems to do that—because you're no longer facing the same direction as your immediate neighbor, you have more shoulder room. And if you're traveling with your kid or spouse, being face-to-face can be nice (we guess).
Why not move to standing-room only, with roller-coaster style restraints?
Original Submission
(Score: 2, Interesting) by KBentley57 on Friday July 10 2015, @07:03PM
I'll admit that I have no idea how the aerospace industry works at all. Not with the prices, not with the service, not with the demand, not anything. If someone could answer any of these questions, I would be grateful.
1) It appears that there is absolutely no correlation between flight distance, flight timing, and price. Here is an example: I was recently looking into flying from Birmingham, AL to Huntington, WV. (USA) . Now for those not living in my region, Birmingham has a population of about 1 million in the metro, and Huntington is a small regional airport, with a population of 100,000. The distance is right at 500 miles by car, so I would estimate 450 'as the crow flies'. The ticket cost from all major air lines was well over $500.00. Flying from Atlanta to New York, probably close to 1000 miles, maybe more, i haven't checked, would have only cost $99.00. I understand that between the two major airports more traffic flows, but even at that, it should cost 2x as much fuel per person. If what the airlines claim is true, that fuel prices dominate, then it doesn't make sense. To fly from Atlanta to Seattle was only a $150 round trip. The mileage there is on the order of 5000 or more. How can a flight cross country be had for a fraction of what would be a 3 hour flight tops?
2) I've only flown once, and I was expecting a completely different experience. I was on a good size Boeing, not the top but close to it. The first class seats were tiny. I don't see the cost/benefit analysis paying off there for consumers. The coach seats were tinier. I'm a healthy adult of BMI 23. I was a tight fit in the seats. I can't imagine the frustration with the 'larger' population ( both numbers and weight). It was hot, noisy, and compact. Forget getting up to use the restroom, forget having an armrest, forget having the knees open. I was happy to be able to experience it, as only a small percentage of all the humans who've ever lived have seen the ground from the skies, but it's not something I'll look forward to doing again, and will actively try to avoid it if possible.
2.5) For reference, I can drive the 500 mile trip for about ~ $150 in fuel. This is a single person. It's cheaper than flying, and in my opinion, a better experience. It probably saves time by the number of transfers and pickups, and I'll have my car to drive when I get there. Once you start adding the spouse and kids ( kids which I do not have yet), the price to fly skyrockets, whereas the marginal cost to driving is minimal, for up to 5 passengers. Unless flying between major airports, or on someone else's dime, I can't imagine why anyone would want to fly, barring what would be more than a 12 hour drive.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10 2015, @07:29PM
What you pay for something is not what it costs.
Take for example 1 large drink from Mcdonalds. Lets say they charge 1 buck. Hey not bad. But they paid about 15-20 cents for the whole thing. The rest is profit.
I have found the smaller the airport the higher the prices. Even then you usually have to go thru some hub. So what may be a direct flight ends up being 2 as the airport you start at just has 0 flights that go to where you want.
Having recently flew myself I agree. Flying sucks. The have made a service where it feels like at every opportunity they want to extract a fiver out of you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10 2015, @07:39PM
Or the standardized maintenence costs for operating the aircraft for the same amount of time.
All of that adds up rapidly, especially if your plane is always below 2/3 capacity.
It is why you tend to see extremely small prop driven aircraft for the smaller commuter routes. Less maintenence costs, light vehicle so better fuel economy when not fully loaded, etc.
There are other factors, since a fully loaded jet plane that can fly 40k+ feet gets a lot better equivalent fuel economy to one flying below 10k with much higher wind resistence and lower percentage passenger space when fully loaded.
(Score: 1) by KBentley57 on Friday July 10 2015, @07:41PM
I had mentioned fuel cost, maybe not explicitly. I guess I assumed that the fuel cost was directly proportional to the distance. It's part of why I was dismayed at the cost of longer trips, compared to those that were much shorter, yet costing much more.
(Score: 2, Informative) by tftp on Friday July 10 2015, @08:17PM
I had mentioned fuel cost, maybe not explicitly. [...] For reference, I can drive the 500 mile trip for about ~ $150 in fuel
That would be, assuming $3.60/gal, about 42 gallons to cover 500 miles. Are you driving an old delivery truck with those 11 mpg? A modern car that you either own or rent for the trip will give you about 40 mpg on a highway, and the cost of your trip would be only $45. That's about what I pay when I make similar trips. By the way, 500 miles will require at most 10 hours, assuming a mixture of interstate and state and county roads. If most of your trip is on decent roads (65 mph) then the trip will require 7.5 - 8 hours. It is perfectly doable for a single driver, even without lunch.
(Score: 1) by KBentley57 on Friday July 10 2015, @08:39PM
You're correct. I should have said that was $150 for the round trip. Sorry about that. It's even better now that the fuel prices have gone down. It's $2.50/ USGallon here at the moment, so the round trip price is ~ $100.00
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10 2015, @08:41PM
A 737 gets about 90 mpg per seat.
(Score: 1) by KBentley57 on Friday July 10 2015, @08:51PM
I've seen that number too. I don't disagree that it's probably better for the environment, but when the same trip costs X vs 5X, which one would you choose?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by eharvill on Friday July 10 2015, @09:50PM
http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/01/investing/united-airlines-lawsuit-skiplagged/ [cnn.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by N3Roaster on Friday July 10 2015, @09:57PM
To answer a part of 2, hardly anybody pays for those first class seats. Quality of that class varies widely but the pricing is ridiculous. If the airline is lucky maybe one person goes for it. Instead, it's all free upgrades for people who fly a lot on that airline. In coach, a lot of planes these days have exactly two good seats. It's the window seat in the rear-most row of exit seating over the wing where there isn't a seat in the row in front of you. The seat is still narrow but the excessive leg room helps a lot and the seat doesn't cost any more than the others (and it's less than the "comfort" seating with some unnoticeable extra inches of leg room).
International flights are better and some of the foreign airlines don't seem to be in a rush to discover the minimum acceptable level of service. Emirates, for example, had a fairly large guy (big and tall, not obese, I met him on a trip to Dubai a few years ago) sit in the seats to test out their spacing.
Typica - Free software for coffee roasting professionals. [typica.us]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Friday July 10 2015, @10:06PM
Somebody more knowledgeable jump in here, but my recollection is that it comes down to volume and competition. Lots of people want to fly between NYC and LA, and so many airlines offer many flights on that route. Not so many people want to fly those regional routes, so the price rises accordingly. There are of course odd exceptions. For example if you wanted to fly from any place in the US to Bentonville, Arkansas you could easily get a flight, cheap, at nearly any time you want to go. Why? Because it's the headquarters for Walmart, which employs about half of rural America and has people flying in and out for indoctri...training all the time.
Many people have begun to do that same calculation ever since the TSA was formed and began stripping people naked and fondling grandma's genitals. Since that time we drive everywhere if it's within our region or to an adjacent region. Over two days' drive we would fly, but we've only done that once in the last 15 years. I've determined that should I need to travel to Asia or Europe or elsewhere again, I will either drive across the border to Canada and fly from there or contrive to take a ship. Of course that's beside the cost factor you're talking about, but for me the freedom and privacy factor is co-equal to cost.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 10 2015, @11:08PM
You will be diaspointed if you drive to Canada to take a plane, we have some TSA equivalent for most destination and the price are way higher, also we share information with the USA... A lot of Canadian drive to regional American airport to fly, Plattsburgh airport come to my mind.
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Saturday July 11 2015, @02:39AM
Airlines charge what people will pay, they work to maximise profit based on the availability of equipment, people, and slots to ensure every asset makes the most it can.
Forward/backward facing is not new though - I flew LHR to SIN yesterday in such an arrangement. I was facing my 3yo who sat next to his mother who was facing our 7mo in his car seat. Very relaxing flight, the kids slept most of the 13 hours, and we managed to get a good 6 hours too. Normally we fly at the front, but due to seat layout for the first long haul with the children, we decided to slum it in business.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 11 2015, @06:49AM
On first class, domestic first class is indeed only slightly nicer seats than coach, but international first class seats are much nicer: there's space to lie flat.