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posted by takyon on Sunday July 26 2015, @01:45PM   Printer-friendly
from the suit-up dept.

R&D teams within HP Enterprise Services received memos this week reminding them about the company's rules regarding workplace fashion. "If you aren't dressed like the models in the posters that HP displays around its locations, then your appearance is sapping the productivity of the workers around you," was one summary of the memo by an anonymous source. Many employees have become comfortable wearing t-shirts and shorts on a regular basis, and it is believed that "scruffy-looking" engineers might alienate visiting customers.


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  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by acid andy on Sunday July 26 2015, @02:26PM

    by acid andy (1683) on Sunday July 26 2015, @02:26PM (#213848) Homepage Journal

    Not this shit again.

    I ranted about this for ages on the Other Site.

    To summarize, professionalism should be about getting the job done, nothing more, nothing less. Other people's taste in clothing should have fuck all to do with that. The customers need to learn to deal with this shit. It's the 21st century.

    --
    If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @02:45PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @02:45PM (#213859)

    The customer pays your bills. Whoever pays your bills, when they say 'jump', you ask 'how high?'...

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by acid andy on Sunday July 26 2015, @03:18PM

      by acid andy (1683) on Sunday July 26 2015, @03:18PM (#213873) Homepage Journal

      OK so why doesn't every company give each of their customers free lifetime support, blackjack, hookers, the secret of eternal youth and a 2% stake in the company?

      Oh, that's right, it's about balancing the needs of the company and its employees with the needs of the customer.

      --
      If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @05:04PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @05:04PM (#213902)

        OK so why doesn't every company give each of their customers free lifetime support, blackjack, hookers, the secret of eternal youth and a 2% stake in the company?

        Because then the customer ceases to be a customer and is no longer entitled to any of these things.

        • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @06:45PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @06:45PM (#213937)

          You need to check your grammar, or your logic...probably both.

          Don't worry though. When you want to be a slave there are many masters waiting for you to come through the door in your three-piece.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2015, @05:05AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2015, @05:05AM (#214089)

            Aren't we all slaves. We all must sign away our life (or rather all our IP, including what we do at home in "our time") to get a job.

      • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @06:23PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @06:23PM (#213931)

        OK so why doesn't every company give each of their customers free lifetime support, blackjack, hookers, the secret of eternal youth and a 2% stake in the company?

        Don't be ridiculous. There's not enough hookers & blow for our support staff, let alone our customers.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by q.kontinuum on Sunday July 26 2015, @05:57PM

      by q.kontinuum (532) on Sunday July 26 2015, @05:57PM (#213918) Journal

      But my(*) service is not jumping. Jumping is easy, and they can turn to anyone if I'm not in the mood. My service is software development, and the market is such that demand is still higher than availability. So, they can ask someone else to do the development or they can bear with my qualification and fashion style.

      * "my" does not mean really "my" service in particular, but reasonably good professional software developers in general. Personally, I'd probably follow the dress code if I'm content with the job otherwise, because I don't care for fashion either way. But being allowed to dress the way I like is one of many perks an employer can offer me, and what's more, it's one that comes for free to them and seems to play an important role to many developers in order to feel comfortable. Dress code can be one of many straws breaking the camels back.

      --
      Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by tathra on Sunday July 26 2015, @08:18PM

      by tathra (3367) on Sunday July 26 2015, @08:18PM (#213962)

      the customer pays you do fulfill specific tasks for them. if and only if the task is to jump, you say "How high?" if the task is to write software to tackle a specific problem and they tell you to jump, you rightfully say "Fuck you" because that's not the job. the customer is always right, sure, but that only applies with regards to the product or service they are purchasing - you are not the customers' slave.

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by hemocyanin on Sunday July 26 2015, @11:57PM

      by hemocyanin (186) on Sunday July 26 2015, @11:57PM (#214020) Journal

      I would think that by now, a customer would get worried if he/she _didn't_ see the scruffy guys off in the corners intent on something. That's the stereotype right? If all they see are people in loafers, dockers, and button down shirts, they might think "jeez -- are you all marketing and no engineering?"

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2015, @07:39AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2015, @07:39AM (#214163)

      The customer pays your bills. Whoever pays your bills, when they say 'jump', you ask 'how high?'...

      I see you have never done business with AT&T, Time Warner, investment advisors, or car dealers.

  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @06:27PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @06:27PM (#213932)

    I manage the programmers for one of my clients. The client's office dress code is "business casual". I tell the programmers to wear something nice enough that they wouldn't be ashamed to see it in a family portrait, but not fancy enough that it would be OK church. They get it, and they comply. As a reward for their cooperation I got them a Keurig. Win-win.

    • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Grishnakh on Sunday July 26 2015, @11:27PM

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Sunday July 26 2015, @11:27PM (#214013)

      That seems rather cruel: you got them a crappy coffeemaker that has built-in DRM forcing them to buy Keurig-branded pods?

      • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday July 27 2015, @12:13AM

        by hemocyanin (186) on Monday July 27 2015, @12:13AM (#214027) Journal

        Aside from all that -- what fucking cheapskate. What's the most expensive keruig (however its spelled, don't care) out there? This was the most expensive one I could find: http://www.amazon.com/Keurig-2700-Keurig%C2%AE-Single-coffee/dp/B007L877MI/ [amazon.com] and even at $335, I'm not impressed, either with the boss, or those who thought it was a great gift. My guess, the employees aren't all that impressed and they just roll their eyes at bossman behind his back.

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday July 27 2015, @02:26AM

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday July 27 2015, @02:26AM (#214046)

          Actually, I disagree (unfortunately). They probably think it's great. Where I work now, and the last place I worked too, there's been Keurigs, and the employees just love those damn things. It's just like how everyone back in the 70s loved disco for some unknown reason.

          Face it, people are sheep.

          • (Score: 2) by spxero on Monday July 27 2015, @03:32AM

            by spxero (3061) on Monday July 27 2015, @03:32AM (#214055)

            In my office we have two options (employer paid): Folgers or Keurig. The Folgers is almost always full, and sometimes you get the motor-oil version where someone has placed two of the Folgers filters together and run it again. The Keurig option is more or less manual and takes longer, but the option is Dunkin Donuts, Starbucks, McDonalds, Newman's, Black Magic, Southern Pecan, Breakfast Blend, French Roast, Rio Grande, etc.

            It may seem like we're sheep for enjoying it, but the alternative is to buy it ourselves.

            • (Score: 1) by kramulous on Monday July 27 2015, @08:27AM

              by kramulous (255) on Monday July 27 2015, @08:27AM (#214180)

              I think I actually prefer the walk to go and get coffee. It is a nice time to get the blood pumping a little more while wrangling with a problem.

              I find that when I get back, I'm back into the code and notice a couple of hours later that my coffee is cold. Which is a nice bonus. Just not a fan of luke warm coffee.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @07:43PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 26 2015, @07:43PM (#213953)

    It's the 21st century.

    Century21 professionals have to wear golden blazers. All of them. Kind of like MaryKay people have to wear a pink Cadillac. Without those things, they would not be professionals!

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by RedBear on Sunday July 26 2015, @10:18PM

    by RedBear (1734) on Sunday July 26 2015, @10:18PM (#213999)

    To summarize, professionalism should be about getting the job done, nothing more, nothing less. Other people's taste in clothing should have fuck all to do with that.

    The assertion that there should be literally no limits to the discarding of social conventions always just seems to mean that the speaker hasn't had their own personal limits tested. You personally feel that they should be allowed to wear t-shirts and shorts, so you disapprove of HP's new dress code. But should they be allowed to wear wifebeaters and speedos? How about mankinis? Maybe everyone (bot men and women) should be allowed to go shirtless on the job?

    I somehow doubt that it would be fine with you if you walked into a public business and all the employees were naked and covered in human waste while wearing horse tail and bunny rabbit tail butt plugs. Something tells me you would probably choose not to do business with that establishment again, no matter how "professional" the staff was otherwise.

    Social conventions like clothing of a certain type has many reasons for existing, and there is no such thing as a person who has no use for some level of such social conventions. The only difference between people is that everyone has their own personal limits and we all disagree where those limits should be. HP's management has decided that they might be risking losing business with certain customers if their employee dress code is seen as too lax. Or they just want to exercise their managerial authority. Oh my God, it is the literal end of the world. Or maybe it isn't.

    The customers need to learn to deal with this shit. It's the 21st century.

    It may not be right or perfect, but the way employees are dressed will always be a part of how we judge the professionalism of an organization. How important that part is depends largely on the type of customers you're trying to impress. Businesses that treat the customer as unimportant tend not to last very long. The same goes for businesses that treat employees as unimportant. The key, as with everything in life, is finding a balance. HP is adjusting the balance. Employees will either make the adjustment, protest it, or seek new employment. Unless they're being asked to wear something embarrassing like Playboy bunny suits, what's the big deal?

    --
    ¯\_ʕ◔.◔ʔ_/¯ LOL. I dunno. I'm just a bear.
    ... Peace out. Got bear stuff to do. 彡ʕ⌐■.■ʔ
    • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Sunday July 26 2015, @11:42PM

      by acid andy (1683) on Sunday July 26 2015, @11:42PM (#214017) Homepage Journal

      That's a well thought out and rational response, I'll give you that. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

      I somehow doubt that it would be fine with you if you walked into a public business and all the employees were naked and covered in human waste while wearing horse tail and bunny rabbit tail butt plugs. Something tells me you would probably choose not to do business with that establishment again, no matter how "professional" the staff was otherwise.

      OK, I understand, you're giving an extreme example to illustrate that everyone has their limits. Personally though, if they provided excellent products or services, I'd probably still buy their stuff (and possibly, in exceptional circumstances, consider working with them) if it weren't for the part about the human waste. If you really want me to take the argument seriously then I would say the human waste is introducing other factors in (smell, risk of disease) that wouldn't normally be understood to be encapsulated in the accepted definition of clothing. Aside from that, most people would assume that a company with many naked employees or employees in surreal costumes or anything else extremely unconventional would be doing it for the sake of publicity and even shock value to gain brand recognition. Stranger things have happened.

      --
      If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
      • (Score: 2) by RedBear on Monday July 27 2015, @01:14AM

        by RedBear (1734) on Monday July 27 2015, @01:14AM (#214038)

        That's a well thought out and rational response, I'll give you that. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

        That is high praise, especially on the Internet, and agreeing to disagree is a cornerstone of civilization.

        At least you got the point, that if you think there is no point at which you yourself would be sorely tempted to start implementing some form of authoritarian "order", you just haven't thought hard enough. I had to make it an extreme example to be sure you would suddenly find yourself on the authoritarian side of the spectrum, thinking, "Hey, wait a minute, I'm not OK with that part." Your personal limit is just a lot closer to the anarchy/liberal side of the spectrum than HP's authoritarian/conservative management. Personally, although I'm no fan of button-up shirts, starched collars, ties and double-breasted suits, I can't seem to find in myself the ability to get upset about people being asked to wear collared shirts and pants to work. To me that's very close to the minimum to show other people that you care about yourself and your job. In a corporate office environment that's already "casual" attire, and quite comfortable to work in all day long. Not something to get upset about.

        But that's just me.

        A point to ponder: If you wear ultra-casual clothes to work all the time, how will you ever be able to "dress down" when you get home or go on vacation, and feel like you aren't working anymore? That's one of the best things about vacation, wearing stuff you'd never be allowed to wear at work! A dress code is a time-honored way to help separate work life from real life. Anyone who has been a part of some uniformed service will also tell you that putting on specific clothing to do a job puts you in a different frame of mind that can and will affect how professionally you behave while wearing that uniform. It's a minor, but measurable effect. Non-conformity and conformity both have their place in the world.

        --
        ¯\_ʕ◔.◔ʔ_/¯ LOL. I dunno. I'm just a bear.
        ... Peace out. Got bear stuff to do. 彡ʕ⌐■.■ʔ
        • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2015, @02:40AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 27 2015, @02:40AM (#214047)

          If you wear ultra-casual clothes to work all the time, how will you ever be able to "dress down" when you get home or go on vacation, and feel like you aren't working anymore? That's one of the best things about vacation, wearing stuff you'd never be allowed to wear at work!

          Vacation is whenever you get some time to code what you love, not the code that pays

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday July 27 2015, @08:38AM

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday July 27 2015, @08:38AM (#214184) Homepage
        > naked employees

        Already happened. There was a controversial magazine in the 70s whose editors used to work in the nude. I forget its name now, but it's featured, in all its fleshy glory, in part 3 of the BBC's /Rude Britannia/ documentary.
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Tuesday July 28 2015, @10:39PM

      by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Tuesday July 28 2015, @10:39PM (#215094)

      You personally feel that they should be allowed to wear t-shirts and shorts, so you disapprove of HP's new dress code. But should they be allowed to wear wifebeaters and speedos? How about mankinis? Maybe everyone (bot men and women) should be allowed to go shirtless on the job?

      Of course. Only a shallow fool would think otherwise, but our society is filled with irrational, shallow fools.

      And it's funny how a male going shirtless is often seen as okay, but if a female does it, then it's obscene and horrible (in the eyes of puritans anyway).

      I somehow doubt that it would be fine with you if you walked into a public business and all the employees were naked and covered in human waste while wearing horse tail and bunny rabbit tail butt plugs. Something tells me you would probably choose not to do business with that establishment again, no matter how "professional" the staff was otherwise.

      As long as they can do their jobs properly, I don't care. That place sounds entertaining.

      Social conventions like clothing of a certain type has many reasons for existing

      Worthless authoritarians enjoy controlling others and forcing them to conform to their subjective sense of aesthetics.

      but the way employees are dressed will always be a part of how we judge the professionalism of an organization.

      There is no "always" unless you give up.