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White House spokeswoman and Presidential Advisor on Homeland Security and Counterterrorism Lisa Monaco issued a response to the petition that Edward Snowden receive immunity from any laws he may have broken and be allowed to return to the USA as a free man. Her statement reasserted the Administration's position that Snowden is a criminal, running away from the consequences of his actions and should return to the USA to stand trial (and inevitably serve out the rest of his life in solitary confinement).
The full text of the response:
Thanks for signing a petition about Edward Snowden. This is an issue that many Americans feel strongly about. Because his actions have had serious consequences for our national security, we took this matter to Lisa Monaco, the President's Advisor on Homeland Security and Counterterrorism. Here's what she had to say:
Since taking office, President Obama has worked with Congress to secure appropriate reforms that balance the protection of civil liberties with the ability of national security professionals to secure information vital to keep Americans safe.
As the President said in announcing recent intelligence reforms, "We have to make some important decisions about how to protect ourselves and sustain our leadership in the world, while upholding the civil liberties and privacy protections that our ideals and our Constitution require."
Instead of constructively addressing these issues, Mr. Snowden's dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it.
If he felt his actions were consistent with civil disobedience, then he should do what those who have taken issue with their own government do: Challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest, and -- importantly -- accept the consequences of his actions. He should come home to the United States, and be judged by a jury of his peers -- not hide behind the cover of an authoritarian regime. Right now, he's running away from the consequences of his actions.
We live in a dangerous world. We continue to face grave security threats like terrorism, cyber-attacks, and nuclear proliferation that our intelligence community must have all the lawful tools it needs to address. The balance between our security and the civil liberties that our ideals and our Constitution require deserves robust debate and those who are willing to engage in it here at home.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by albert on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:00AM
Whenever a Snowdon story comes out, there is only one opinion that is politically correct around here. This is where linear moderation fails us. It's clear that people from the SF Bay Area and even Europe can trivially outvote people from places like Alabama, Virginia, Texas, and Nevada.
This kills discussion. Even if you do agree with the majority, you should realize that your peers are killing discussion by voting the minority down to -1. You are being denied the chance to see well-thought-out opinions that would be interesting to you and would give you something to ponder.
As far as I can tell, the closest thing to a fix for this problem is non-linear moderation. Upmods and downmods need to be tracked separately, passed through different functions such that upmods grow faster than downmods, then subtracted to get the final score. It could be up*up-down for example. It could be up-sqrt(down) or up*up*up-down*down or similar.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:13AM
Who the hell is Snowdon? Can the group you get your groupthink from spell his name correctly?
It's true that Snowden stories are circlejerks. But that's not our fault. We understand that the Constitution was violated, illegal and secret surveillance has been conducted on Americans and everyone else, and that the full extent of NSA/GCHQ/FBI surveillance capabilities is still unknown.
Make a good and reasoned anti-Snowden post, and someone will upmod you for it. The Disagree mod also helps if it's used, since it doesn't lower score. Finally, as spammy ACs have liked to remind us, you can browse at -1, as I do.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Fluffeh on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:16AM
While I think that yes, the majority of users here have a very similar opinion on Snowden, I have many times seen well written counter-arguments written and modded up.
Keep in mind that when the majority of people share a similar opinion in a place like this, generally the comments that go against the grain are actually often trolls or flamebait. I don't have any problem with those getting down-voted.
I am however, not a huge fan of the "-1 Disagree" mod. Just because we disagree with it, doesn't mean that the next person will - though I guess with everyone having mod points, they can mod it back up again.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:21AM
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:22AM
There is a +0 Disagree mod, which you should use when you want to burn a mod point to express you disagree with a post, without resorting to incorrect Flamebait/Troll/Offtopic mod.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday July 29 2015, @05:03AM
There is also a -0 Disagree mod, which you should use when you want to burn a mod point to express you disagree with a post, without resorting to incorrect Flamebait/Troll/Offtopic mod. [Shamelessly plagiarized from takyon, with only an added adverb and a change of polarity.]
(Score: 4, Funny) by takyon on Wednesday July 29 2015, @05:06AM
±0 Funny
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday July 29 2015, @06:16AM
But Funny is +1, am I right? Well played, sir/madame!
(Score: 2) by bart9h on Wednesday July 29 2015, @06:24PM
IIRC, Funny is adds to the comment score, but not to the karma.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 31 2015, @07:00PM
Nah, that's over on the other site. You get karma too here. We like funny people.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by albert on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:57AM
Sure about that? Maybe those comments are simply outside your current Overton window. Perhaps your Overton window will move, and years from now you will be of a different opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday July 29 2015, @12:58PM
Yes, thanks for that, Herr Goebbels. If only propaganda were better run to instill the proper obedience to authority in the minds of the public, eh? The problem must be that people upset by the government's crimes that Snowden exposed simply haven't been taught well enough to doublethink their way to happiness and complacency.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday July 29 2015, @12:50PM
You may have Fluffeh, but I have certainly not. In my world there is no positive spin that can be put on the vast criminal conspiracy to subvert the Constitution and undermine the very pillars of our freedom, democracy, and society that the United States government has become. Any POS I see cheering for the NSA's crimes I will downmod and I will do it to their face, because it's the least I can do to those who ought to be stripped of their citizenship (American, British, whatever) and sent to live in North Korea where the contempt for freedom and worship of obedience to authority is as absolute as their own. They have no business profaning our company with their bootlicking gibberish.
Is that clear enough for the NSA apologists out there, or should I tell them what I really think?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:05PM
Ah Lordy-Lordy and Hallelujah! For you walk on the RIGHT and TRUE path!! Let us eliminate the INFIDELS who think otherwise!!!
I'm with you brother! For ours is the ONE and ONLY way! For WE know what is right.
Let's meet at the Creationism Museum. When we're done, maybe we can go "take care" of some of them abortion doctors too. Fuck those who say there are shades of grey for we know it is a black-and-white world. Fuck those 200-plus years of Constitutional Law, for WE KNOW THE LAW. We'll shit on "Joe Sixpack" when it comes to computers, but we'll fucking loudly and proudly proclaim our "Joe Sixpack" knowledge of law and jurisprudence.
Yeah, there's no fucking echo chamber and mod abuse going on here. Shouting down contrary opinions is the main argumentative step of the self-righteous asshole.
Also, your "ends justify the means" mob attitude is a little frightening as well. Why are you against drone attacks that take out terrorist leaders? Doesn't that justify the collateral damage of civilian deaths just like how all that foreign intel Snowden dumped is just collateral damage to the domestic spying stuff? It couldn't be related to YOUR means vs other people's means could it?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday July 31 2015, @06:59PM
And I'll do the opposite. That's why everyone gets mod points every day, to correct blatant abuses like you're talking about performing.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:40AM
It's clear that people from the SF Bay Area and even Europe can trivially outvote people from places like Alabama, Virginia, Texas, and Nevada.
You mean, the states of the United States with the worst educational systems, highest rates of gun hoarding and waco religions do not get an equal hearing? You know, if there were actually more of these people, and they were smart enough, they could figure out a way to not be out-voted so consistently by the minority of educated elites! Is so easy, even an American Snipper could figure it out!
(And yes, this is one of "those" submissions, designed to stir the hornet's nest. At least Dice is cashing out. )
(Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:50AM
... they could figure out a way to not be out-voted so consistently by the minority of educated elites! Is so easy, even an American Snipper could figure it out!
The timing of a typo in the middle of a comment is sometimes just gold... :)
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:54AM
And what makes you think it is a typo? Some of the most accurate tailors in the US military hale from Texas! (And yes, that one is intentional as well. I have been recently informed that it is our mistakes that makes SoylentNews the wonderful place it is.)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by pogostix on Wednesday July 29 2015, @05:08AM
I browse at -1 always. I'm not seeing any downmodded legit discussion?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @06:52AM
If you have "well-thought-out opinions that would be interesting to [me] and would give [me] something to ponder." I'm still waiting. Seriously. Instead of being angry about believing you will be downmodded for posting something good, post it and find out. Scientific method and all that.
(Score: 2) by albert on Wednesday July 29 2015, @07:14AM
Here you go:
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?sid=8660&cid=215255 [soylentnews.org]
It didn't take long for that to get "Troll". I provided a relevant link to a reputable site. I explained the problem. No, I didn't walk on eggshells to be polite, but pointing out major problems with the parent poster's thinking isn't the same as being a troll.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @09:57AM
I agree. Frequently things are labelled as troll when they are not. Impoliteness of a message with valid reasoning is as good as a polite one, just not as readily persuasive. It certainly does not warrant a -1 anything let alone troll.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @10:35AM
Being an obtuse idiot does merit a troll rating. You will have one until you prove yourself capable of reasoned argument, instead of Faux News talking points. Are you actually even a real human being? Has the military already deployed killer robots right here on the discussion fora of the internet? Here: read this chaptcha: notaspook . Ok?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday July 29 2015, @01:06PM
Yes, and it's also straight out of the smear campaign against Snowden that the NSA began when all the news first broke. Remember that cringe-worthy propaganda piece [youtube.com] they put out "interviewing" Keith Alexander about the NSA's criminal programs? It's absolutely one of the agency's talking points and you're repeating it here. It ought to be modded into a smoking hole in the ground.
Haven't the geniuses at JTRIG figured out yet that those 3-yr old talking points have completely failed? Did its surrogates not get that memo yet?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by pogostix on Thursday July 30 2015, @12:39AM
I didn't mod your post but I'm writing this to address your concern it was modded down unfairly.
You don't address the fact he was whistle blowing on the government breaking the law. Yes some of that stuff might be a gold mine but he was, as some one else posted, upholding his oath to protect the constitution from enemies both foreign and *domestic*
So he broke the law. He didn't go on a shooting rampage of federal employees, that would be over the line. He blew the whistle to media. Is that over the line? Where that line should be is up for discussion.
(Score: 1) by albert on Thursday July 30 2015, @04:20AM
Here, let's get some distance from the specifics of this case. I'll make up a similar example, and you tell me why it is an example of a perfectly ethical whistleblower.
We have a Mr. Iceden. He works in the accounting department of Ford Motor Company. As corporations are wont to do, Ford is trying to find loopholes in the tax law so that taxes don't need to be paid. One day while cutting it close to the line, Mr. Iceden correctly determines that something is illegal. Most of the people around him honestly disagree, and the others would rather not rock the boat. Mr. Iceden gets nowhere complaining to his boss.
Mr. Iceden decides to go public with this. He posts the accounting data for the world to see. He also posts plans for future vehicles, intentions for union negotiations, unreleased quarterly financial results, factory setup info, CAD models, discussions with lawyers for an ongoing lawsuit, and unfiled patent applications.
Whenever people say that Mr. Iceden did something wrong, he and his supporters claim that he is a whistleblower. Tax evasion is illegal!
Well?
(Score: 2) by pogostix on Thursday July 30 2015, @05:19AM
Interesting, but let's stay in reality instead of making up a case study.
I googled "scope of snowden leak" and clicked on the first 3 results.
Article 1: ------------
• Classified assessment describes impact of leaks as 'grave'
• Report does not include specific detail to support conclusions
Article 2: ------------
"...while the DIA report describes the damage to US intelligence capabilities as “grave”, the government still refuses to release any specific details to support this conclusion."
Article 3: ------------
1. Secret court orders allow NSA to sweep up Americans' phone records
2. PRISM
3. Britain's version of the NSA taps fiber optic cables around the world
4. NSA spies on foreign countries and world leaders
5. XKeyscore, the program that sees everything
6. NSA efforts to crack encryption and undermine Internet security
7. NSA elite hacking team techniques revealed
8. NSA cracks Google and Yahoo data center links
9. NSA collects text messages
10. NSA intercepts all phone calls in two countries
---------------------------------
So journalists covering this have looked for the "grave" consequences of his actions but have not been able to document them. Whereas article 3 shows the amazing amount of bad he exposed.
---------------------------------
So let's google "damage caused by snowden"
It brings back gems like:
Alexander said that broad surveillance efforts on Americans' phone records and on foreign internet usage, disclosed by Snowden, was in line with Americans' expectations for preventing another 9/11.
"These two capabilities helped us form the dots," Alexander said. "I think that's what the American people want us to do."
He thought that's what the citizens wanted him to do? I'm glad it was exposed. The scope of what he uncovered makes me forgive any collateral leaks that were not nessessary.
(Score: 1) by albert on Thursday July 30 2015, @06:21AM
I'll take that as conceding the point.
It's also pretty obvious that nobody is about to goad the NSA into releasing even more sensitive info. You can shout about them not providing evidence all you want, but they really obviously need to resist the temptation to answer you with evidence.
As for that 3rd article with the list, many items are the intended and lawful job of the NSA:
From the moment the agency was founded many decades ago, the primary mission has been to dig into the communications of foreigners. It is to be expected that they actually do this.
Come on now, "spies on foreign countries and world leaders" is clearly legit. The elite hacking team techniques are directly in support of that.
I know that some people don't like the NSA's mission. This is no different from the fact that some people don't like the military's mission, which is literally to kill foreigners. You can dislike the mission all you want, but you still benefit from it. Be glad you have the right to complain. If the US were stupid enough to give up such capability, you'd eventually lose your right to complain due to being conquered.
(Score: 2) by pogostix on Thursday July 30 2015, @06:43AM
yup, we both agree they do some "right" and some wrong. Where does one draw the line? Was Snowden justified in leaking information wholesale to expose the illegal actions of his superiors/agency/government?
Here was one of Obama's campaign promises:
Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.
If I was on Snowdens jury, he'd get a free pass. Sadly, I'm not even sure if he'd get a proper trial. Him coming home could put him in some alternate "justice" system where he is labelled a terrorist.
Are you OK with that? with gitmo? with the government breaking the law? see, it's this larger picture of abuses of authority that make me forgive Snowden... even if you "proved" to me that he leaked a piece of intel that was irrelevant to whistleblowing and illegal to do so and harmful.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @06:57AM
I totally agree, I mean, its so obviously a liberal conspiracy, there's no way in hell that any of these mods are legitimate! Why, I'll bet you anything this post right here will get modded troll by SJWs trying to force PC on us from their west-coast, liberal, ivory-tower colleges.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @10:31AM
Translated: "Hmm, far more people disagree with me than agree with me, but I can't possibly be wrong so it must be the fault of the moderation system that prevents my viewpoint from being presented. Who cares that these people are, as a group, likely to be far more informed than me on the subject, especially given the bias of opinion my home state immediately imposes on me... no, must be the mod system at fault here."
Seriously, get a clue how the site works, numbnuts!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @12:43PM
When all the down mods are troll, flamebait and offtopic, then yes, you fucking braindead dipshit, it is mod abuse and tyranny of the self-righteous.
Let's look at the responses to his post, which are basically, "you and your opinions, and all those who share them, are ignorant. MY opinions are the one TRUE and RIGHTEOUS thoughts." There are no discussion of his points, just "you are and idiot" responses. Now which posts should be troll and flamebait?Or maybe reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday July 29 2015, @01:12PM
So, when people who value their freedom downmod and disagree with people expressing proto- or full-on authoritarian positions, they're merely being self-righteous? OK, you know what? I'll own that. I'm not afraid to be self-righteous in the face of fascism. And I'll go on being self-righteous against lickspittles and totalitarian sycophants until my very last breath.
May the ranks of the self-righteous swell until the crimes of the NSA and their apologists have been swept from our midst.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 29 2015, @12:37PM
Your views do not sound compatible with the Party, comrade. They are not welcome here.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday July 29 2015, @12:42PM
Snowdon is a mountain in Wales. I had no idea semi-illiterates from the South held such strong views on Welsh geography. Do tell us your well-reasoned hatred for the peak--is it that you view its classification as the highest mountain in Wales as a plot by liberal elitists?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 29 2015, @02:28PM
Whatever. Personally, I refrain from moderating in a discussion like this, which I am very passionate about. It would be easy for me to down-mod every comment that I didn't agree with, so I just keep my moderator in it's holster for these conversations.
I may THINK that some of the posters are dumbasses - but I'd be a bigger dumbass to abuse the moderation system in that manner.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday July 29 2015, @04:33PM
Well, Runaway, part of me can applaud that. The greater part of me says, there is no excuse for writing apologia for an agency which is the equivalent of the Stasi. Should we all excuse what the Stasi did and what it stood for because many of its top officers were decent family men? Fuck no. When an institution turns so definitively evil as the NSA and Stasi did, you can excuse no man who remains part of it, no matter what. Evil is evil. Condemn it.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Wednesday July 29 2015, @03:05PM
You are being denied the chance to see well-thought-out opinions that would be interesting to you and would give you something to ponder.
I browse at -1, so no.