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posted by cmn32480 on Tuesday September 01 2015, @12:43AM   Printer-friendly
from the don't-just-date-get-married dept.

Brian Booker writes at Digital Journal that carbon dating suggests that the Koran, or at least portions of it, may actually be older than the prophet Muhammad himself, a finding that if confirmed could rewrite early Islamic history and shed doubt on the "heavenly" origins of the holy text. Scholars believe that a copy Koran held by the Birmingham Library was actually written sometime between 545 AD and 568 [takyon: 568 and 645 AD, with 95.4% accuracy], while the Prophet Mohammad was believed to have been born in 570 AD and to have died in 632 AD. It should be noted, however, that the dating was only conducted on the parchment, rather than the ink, so it is possible that the quran was simply written on old paper. Some scholars believe, however, that Muhammad did not receive the Quran from heaven, as he claimed during his lifetime, but instead collected texts and scripts that fit his political agenda.

"This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran's genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven," says Keith Small, from the University of Oxford's Bodleian Library. "'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged," says Historian Tom Holland. "and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions."


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  • (Score: 3, Informative) by moondoctor on Tuesday September 01 2015, @01:15AM

    by moondoctor (2963) on Tuesday September 01 2015, @01:15AM (#230576)

    Yeah, the whole tone/approach is really weird. Feels much more political/philosophical than scientifically motivated.

    Their date range of 545 to 568 just smells like manipulated numbers. Moreover, as you say - Claiming fact on 2 years margin of error over 1500 also seems super contrived.

    Part that's really fucked up is that this is presented effectively as the inverse of ISIS saying "Jesus is a liar and The Bible is just some old stories."

    I'm not saying that the research is wrong, or that we (by which I mean westerners, excuse the assumption) shouldn't say anything that might hurt ISIS' feelings. However, ignoring the almost literally earth-shattering potential of how this research is handled with the public and in the press is disturbing. Feels more like the opposite, as purposefully inflammatory.

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  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2015, @01:27AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2015, @01:27AM (#230588)

    Part that's really fucked up is that this is presented effectively as the inverse of ISIS saying "Jesus is a liar and The Bible is just some old stories."

    What? Jesus is the #2 prophet in Islam. They call him Issa, which is a very popular name in the middle-east. The only thing muslims really disbelieve about Jesus is that he was divine rather than mortal. His mom, Mary, is super important too. Arguably more important than she is to Christians.

    • (Score: 2) by kurenai.tsubasa on Tuesday September 01 2015, @01:51AM

      by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Tuesday September 01 2015, @01:51AM (#230597) Journal

      Jesus is the #2 prophet in Islam.

      This has always been a WTF for me when reading Islamophobe writings. In discussions about spirituality, metaphysics, and the reason we're all here I've had with a friend who is spiritual but not in the conventional sense, we've recognized Gautama Buddha as the #1 prophet (in this kalpa [wikipedia.org]), Jesus as the #2 prophet, and Muhammed as having a wibbly-wobbly status as the #3 prophet while also recognizing that writings about their enlightenments and teachings may be skewed to fit the political whims of the MotU of the day. The evidence seems lacking for the journalistic capabilities of the time that Joseph Smith would be a #4 prophet. Instead we wonder when the Maitreya Buddha [wikipedia.org] will manifest, perhaps (and this may be the alcohol talking) reigning in a Silver Millennium [wikimoon.org], which aligns with certain predictions in the book of Revelation. (Don't hold your breath! It's probably a few hundred thousand years off at minimum. Make sure to balance your reincarnations with fates of poverty and indescribable wealth to find the middle way!)

      Arguably more important than she is to Christians

      As I understand it, you're referring to Protestants here. Catholicism seems to have a healthy tradition of exaltation of the Virgin Mary. My observation has been that Catholicism is more similar to Pagan traditions that worship a god and goddess in that respect. Protestantism greatly diminishes the role of the virgin mother and immaculate conception (almost leading me to lend some sympathy to Dianist rejections of Protestantism, but that's the pendulum swinging way too far in the other direction). I'm not familiar enough with Eastern Orthodox to comment on that faith, but if we have any Eastern Orthodox readers, I'm all ears!

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Whoever on Tuesday September 01 2015, @03:35AM

      by Whoever (4524) on Tuesday September 01 2015, @03:35AM (#230635) Journal

      What? Jesus is the #2 prophet in Islam.

      Which is a denial of the first and central tenet of Christianity (or at least the Catholics). That's not some minor doctrinal issue.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2015, @04:23AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 01 2015, @04:23AM (#230654)

        That is a problem for christians, but not for muslims or anyone else.

    • (Score: 2) by fritsd on Tuesday September 01 2015, @05:57PM

      by fritsd (4586) on Tuesday September 01 2015, @05:57PM (#230912) Journal

      His mom, Mary, is super important too. Arguably more important than she is to Christians.

      Hah, some Belgians are officially Catholics, so they're supposed to believe in the Trinity (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, in case you didn't know this cultural ref). But instead, in their sorrows they pray to Mary full of Mercy, because she's a bit more "down-to-earth" and "approachable", so to speak. Not as abstract and aloof as God. They wouldn't dare to pray to God directly.

      Bunch of Gaia-worshippers ;-)