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posted by LaminatorX on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:00PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the not-going-to-make-light-of-this dept.

romanr writes:

"The situation in Ukraine was pretty wild yesterday. Over twenty dead protesters have been reported, and many more have been injured. One student, a supporter of peaceful demonstrations and a participant in the riots, answers questions about the current situation in Ukraine."

[ED Note: Background on the Ukraine situation from the BBC.]

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  • (Score: 2) by dilbert on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:07PM

    by dilbert (444) on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:07PM (#2951)

    Ukrainian Riots Participant Aswers Questions on Reddi

    • (Score: 2) by mattie_p on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:08PM

      by mattie_p (13) on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:08PM (#2953) Journal

      Offtopic, yet still a pertinent topic. Thanks, it is fixed now! ~mattie_p

      • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by song-of-the-pogo on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:11PM

        by song-of-the-pogo (1315) on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:11PM (#2956) Homepage Journal

        This got fixed while I was looking for a good way to report a typo. I'd be happy to volunteer (please steer me to the appropriate venue) as a typo-spotter. I don't think I'm qualified to be an editor, but would like to help out in some way if you can make use of me.

        --
        "We have met the enemy and he is us."
      • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by dilbert on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:14PM

        by dilbert (444) on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:14PM (#2959)
        Too bad we can't PM people to inform of a typo instead of post a comment (*hint hint*)
    • (Score: 1) by GungnirSniper on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:25PM

      by GungnirSniper (1671) on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:25PM (#2965) Journal

      It's the little things that will bring in the usual gang of readers.

  • (Score: 2) by combatserver on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:45PM

    by combatserver (38) on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:45PM (#2979)

    "And so it begins..."

    King Theoden

    --
    I hope I can change this later...
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:49PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:49PM (#2981)

    Where exactly did "Over twenty dead protesters" come from? The reddit post never mentions that these were only protesters and the news sources claim 26 people dead, 10 of them police officers.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by romanr on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:28AM

      by romanr (102) on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:28AM (#3040)

      Here [wikipedia.org] you go.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by romanr on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:35AM

        by romanr (102) on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:35AM (#3045)

        Err, the summary is indeed misleading, there have been 20+ causalities among the protesters but not since yesterday but since the beginning of the protests. I'm sorry next time I'll be more careful.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:50PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 19 2014, @11:50PM (#2982)

    Violence solves nothing. It will just end up using more violence, eventually the Army decides who "wins" or you have civil war if they are not cohesive.

    Ukraine could turn into Syria if shit hits the fan. And for what? Ridicules. Both sides equally at fault from where I'm sitting.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:21AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:21AM (#3001)

      The alternative is a non-violent protest which would be systemically taken apart and pacified by illegal government actions, think Occupy. Violence is the only thing that governments and those in power understand as they are inherently violent themselves. Gandhi is revered as a hero of the non-violent movement but the fact is he wouldn't of succeeded without simultaneous efforts of violent revolutionaries. The March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom was successful partly because it scared the shit out of white people knowing that it could turn into a riot. The labor movement in America was successful because bomb throwing anarchists and die hard violent revolutionary communists fought it out in the streets, not because they sat around and held hands while police beat the shit out of them.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:03AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:03AM (#3026)

        The alternative is a non-violent protest which would be systemically taken apart and pacified by illegal government actions, think Occupy

        Yes. Non-violent protests take time and patience.

        The difference with Occupy movement was that it had no purpose. You need a goal and a message and you need the movement to become political. Since Occupy movement wasn't political, they failed. Public had a positive perception of the protests, at first. But then, no message to unite behind, the public became indifferent eventually viewing them as irrelevant. And that's why they failed.

        Tea Party, on the other hand, is succeeding because they have a message and are political (irrespective if I disagree with their message).

        The labor movement in America was successful because bomb throwing anarchists and die hard violent revolutionary communists fought it out in the streets...

        No. I do not agree with this. Public perception of fairness towards protesters is paramount. If protests turn into riots, I would not give a shit what happens to the protesters. Neither would most observers. This is one of the major reasons why protest-opponents try to spark violence - to plant hooligans into protest movements to justify violence against the protesters.

        If original protesters in Syria did not arm themselves and started shooting back, Syria would not be at civil war at this moment. But they did, and now they have a bloodbath. You see, most people when told to harm others do not feel so good about it. They will eventually rebel and "do the right thing". But if you start to shoot at them, the situation changes from them questioning their actions to trying to survive. And people will do anything to survive.

        The problem is people want immediate results and they act irrationally. Non-violent opposition does not cause immediate results, but it does not delay lasting results. Change happens "when people are ready", not because some groups wants them now.

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by tftp on Thursday February 20 2014, @02:06AM

          by tftp (806) on Thursday February 20 2014, @02:06AM (#3067) Homepage

          Change happens "when people are ready", not because some groups wants them now.

          There are groups in Ukraine who want the change right now. They are using the fact that the government of Yanukovitch is corrupt, impotent, and indecisive. (Compare to Al Sisi in Egypt; there were thousands of protesters in the streets against him; he sent helicopters with machine guns and issued live ammo... and we heard crickets in the Western MSM. Protesters are no more, and Egypt is stable again. Is the price worth it?)

          Just like the revolution in Russia in 1917, the current government is universally despised and weak. However the vast majority of Ukrainians do not want violence. A revolt is only going to install a new boss, who may be not any better than the old boss. Ukraine is a largely democratic country, such as that parties can propose candidates, and the voters vote for them. Ukraine could have simply elected a better President. However the protesters (and those who instigate the riots) do not want the democratic process because they'd never be elected. Some of them are following in the footsteps of Stepan Bandera, a NAZI associate of Hitler. Those guys can get power only in fire of a violent revolt, where the "election" is done by force, not by careful and free consideration of all voters. What's happening in Ukraine right now is deeply undemocratic, on par with Pinochet's takeover in Chile. Sometimes such actions are necessary... but only if the democratic process in the country is dead. Ukraine's democracy was not dead, far from it.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @11:24AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @11:24AM (#3352)

        I agree. Carrots don't work without sticks. Also, Malcolm X deserves credit and so too the Black Panthers.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:28AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:28AM (#3008)

      Sometimes violence is the end result, not so much a means. Also, Please Hitler stop killing all those Jews and taking over Europe. Come on let's sit down and talk about your frustrations...

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:16AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 20 2014, @01:16AM (#3033)

        How is this possibly off topic when all in the comment is a point simply disagreeing with the OP?

        Mods stop being so trigger happy and read the CONTEXT.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by SpallsHurgenson on Thursday February 20 2014, @05:11AM

      by SpallsHurgenson (656) on Thursday February 20 2014, @05:11AM (#3192)

      Not that I entirely hold to this particular thesis, but it seems an appropriate quote for the topic at hand and this particular audience:

      "Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and thoroughly immoral -- doctrine that `violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms." - Robert Heinlein

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Daniel Dvorkin on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:18AM

    by Daniel Dvorkin (1099) on Thursday February 20 2014, @12:18AM (#2996) Journal

    From the BBC article:

    At times, the confrontation seems almost medieval - complete with a catapult (albeit one with the modern touch of its own Twitter account), fighters bearing home-made shields with crusader-like crosses on them, and robed priests praying with icons to the side.

    But, make no mistake: Hrushevskyy Street is a very serious zone of combat - one where anger on both sides is mounting with each wave of attacks.

    Catapults certainly used to be serious weapons, and there have been few military forces in history more serious than the crusaders. I get the impression the reporter was going for "oh look, how quaint" but didn't grasp the important point that their willingness to confront a modern army with medieval weaponry is a sign of exactly how serious the protesters are.

    --
    Pipedot [pipedot.org]:Soylent [soylentnews.org]::BSD:Linux
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by kbahey on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:30AM

      by kbahey (1147) on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:30AM (#3127) Homepage

      There was an attempt to build a trebuchet in Tahrir, during the uprising against Mubarak (Jan/Feb 2011). It did not work though.

      A year and a half after the event, the Ministry of Interior (pretty much still the old regime) leaked alleged phone calls blaming this on Hamas, linking them to the Muslim Brotherhood. They could not get the lie right and called it a "slingshot".

      Here is a picture [twitpic.com].

      • (Score: 1) by Daniel Dvorkin on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:27PM

        by Daniel Dvorkin (1099) on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:27PM (#3498) Journal

        "Slingshot" seems to get applied to almost any pre-gunpowder weapon designed to throw something, with the exception of hand-held bows. I've heard it applied to slings, catapults, and ballistas.

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        Pipedot [pipedot.org]:Soylent [soylentnews.org]::BSD:Linux
        • (Score: 1) by kbahey on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:33PM

          by kbahey (1147) on Thursday February 20 2014, @03:33PM (#3507) Homepage

          In this context, no.

          Slingshot has a specific meaning in Arabic, which is the thing David used against Goliath: the piece of rope with a cradle used to hurl stones.

          The State Security Police in Egypt were just trying to blame the entire 2011 uprising on the Muslim Brotherhood, by linking them to the Palestinian Intifadas, hence Hamas, ...etc. so as to discredit all participants by rewriting history.

          • (Score: 1) by Daniel Dvorkin on Friday February 21 2014, @12:54AM

            by Daniel Dvorkin (1099) on Friday February 21 2014, @12:54AM (#3927) Journal

            Slingshot has a specific meaning in Arabic, which is the thing David used against Goliath: the piece of rope with a cradle used to hurl stones.

            In English, that's a sling [wikipedia.org], not a slingshot [wikipedia.org]. Are they actually the same thing in Arabic? Anyway, my point was not to defend the incorrect use of the word to describe things that clearly aren't slingshots in any language, but to point out how common the error is.

            --
            Pipedot [pipedot.org]:Soylent [soylentnews.org]::BSD:Linux
  • (Score: 1) by tftp on Thursday February 20 2014, @04:08AM

    by tftp (806) on Thursday February 20 2014, @04:08AM (#3153) Homepage
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by affenkopf on Thursday February 20 2014, @08:50AM

      by affenkopf (827) on Thursday February 20 2014, @08:50AM (#3271)

      Well informed?

      "Bilingual nations are inherently unstable."

      That certainly explains the daily riots in Singapore, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Canada, Botswana.....

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by tftp on Thursday February 20 2014, @09:02AM

        by tftp (806) on Thursday February 20 2014, @09:02AM (#3273) Homepage

        You are not entirely correct about Canada - it does have issues with Quebec, and French separatists [wikipedia.org] are actively using the language to drive the wedge between QC and the rest of the country:

        On October 30, 1995, with the Parti Québécois back in power since 1994, a second referendum on sovereignty took place. This time, it was rejected by a slim majority (50.6 percent NO to 49.4 percent YES).

        I was in Toronto at that time and watched the referendum on TV.

        Bilingualism indicates that the society is not monolithic. How dangerous are the differences? In Switzerland they are not significant. In Ukraine they are. In Canada they are made to be important.