from the what-happens-underground-stays-underground dept.
girlwhowaspluggedout writes:
"The US Border Patrol has a new tool in its battle against the tunnels that are used to smuggle in drugs from Mexico. Since the cartels' diggers operate outside the range of the agency's cameras, motions detectors, and drones, and because filling the tunnels with concrete hasn't stopped the smugglers, the US Border Patrol now regularly employs robots to search through the underground drug trafficking routes.
The Border Patrol operates four remote-controlled robots along the US-Mexico border. Three of the four are assigned to its station in Nogales, Arizona, the final destination for most of the tunnels that have been discovered so far near the southern border. The agency's robots, which include Applied Research Associates' Pointman Tactical Robot and Inuktun Services' Versatrax 300, can easily fit in closed quarters. The tunnel that the Border Patrol shut down last month, for example though it was equipped with electric lighting, ventilation fans, and wood shoring was only 3 feet and high 2 feet wide. It spanned a whopping 481 feet, the largest tunnel discovered in Nogales by the Border Patrol.
The robots' ability to travel through areas where the air is unsafe to breath for extended periods is especially valuable in Nogales, AZ, whose popularity with drug smugglers is due to its sewer system, which is easily accessible from the adjacent city of Heroica Nogales, Mexico."
(Score: 5, Funny) by gallondr00nk on Tuesday February 25 2014, @12:51PM
March 2014:
The US Border Patrol has abandoned its use of the Versatrax* 300 robot, used to infiltrate tunnels used by drug smugglers, not long after spending $1 billion on the project.
Mr H. Anslinger Jnr was quoted as saying: "The cartels new use of steps and other obstacles of 90 degree inclination has halted our progress."
A consultation on manufacturing Daleks as tunnel infiltration units has also been shelved.
(Score: 5, Funny) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:00PM
Meanwhile, Mexican drug cartels have started using stolen and re-purposed remote control robots to safely transfer drugs across the US border.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:08PM
March 202x: aerial drones were used for some time [fusion.net] in patrol and seek-an-destroy mission for drug smuggler robots. However is only a matter of time before the budget allocated to border patrol mission becomes insufficient for sustaining the operation, given that smuggler robots are low tech and much cheaper to produce. There's a strong push for the Congress to reconsider the drug classification and, more general, the anti-drug legislation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 5, Informative) by girlwhowaspluggedout on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:11PM
Soylent is the best disinfectant.
(Score: 5, Informative) by mcgrew on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:11PM
Excellent comment, well modded. I especially liked the reference to Anslinger [wikipedia.org], who was the one responsible for marijuana being criminalized.
At the time, Anslinger was head of the narcotics department and wanted more money to fight heroin. So he made up a new "threat" -- the evil marijuana. Nobody cared if that was illegal, nobody smoked it. Nobody but blacks, Mexicans, artists, and musicians, and who cares about them, anyway?
If you want to see an unintentionally hilarious movie, go to archive.org or gutenberg.org and find Reefer Madness, an anti-pot propaganda movie Anslinger got filmed (IIRC he's in the beginning of it talking about the evil weed).
Pot was outlawed because of a lie. Why should I respect any laws that come out of bald faced lies? Why should I respect any law at all in such a country? I'll respect the law when the law respects me.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Tuesday February 25 2014, @04:06PM
It was more than just a lie: One of the horrible effects of pot cited by Anslinger was that it caused "upstanding white women to consort with Negroes".
The War on Drugs has always been an exercise in institutionalized racism. Opiates were made illegal because of racism against Chinese-Americans (particularly in San Francisco). Alcohol and tobacco, being drugs of choice for white people, were kept legal.
And of course this continues today: When rich white 19-year-olds are busted for pot possession, the judge tells their parents and makes them go to a rehab program while leaving their criminal record clean. When poor black 19-year-olds are busted for pot possession, they go to jail and have a drug conviction on their record for the rest of their life (which also legalizes discrimination against them in employment, housing, government services, and voting rights).
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by weeds on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:08PM
In honor of Harold Ramis:
"I guess it's just a matter of putting 10,000 gallons of water down there." (look out gopher!)
Get money out of politics! [mayday.us]
(Score: 2, Informative) by TK on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:15PM
In the case of the tunnel mentioned in TFS, that would be closer to 22k gallons.
(2ft)*(3ft)*(481ft)*(.1337 gal/ft^3)=21,589 gal
Depending on the depth, it might collapse before you get 10k in there.
The fleas have smaller fleas, upon their backs to bite them, and those fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum
(Score: 1) by weeds on Tuesday February 25 2014, @10:09PM
(It's a line from the movie)
Get money out of politics! [mayday.us]
(Score: 4, Interesting) by elf on Tuesday February 25 2014, @01:19PM
Could they not just use Radar on their side of the border and just locate tunnel exits using sound waves? Its great that they re using robots to map out the tunnels but their main aim is just to find all the end points. If you had an array of sonar equipment spread over the border you could easily find out where the new tunnels are and shut them down.
Actually looks like they tried this in 2009
http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/07/01/ border-patrol-agents-to-spot-tunnels-with-advanced -ground-penetrating-radar [usnews.com]
I guess it didn't work so well!
(Score: 4, Informative) by VLM on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:04PM
GPR is no joke technologically. The powers required are crazy, the antenna size to get decent resolution is crazy, the T/R switch speeds required are crazy. Its pretty cutting edge as it is so no great surprise that trying to "GI proof" and miniaturize it are not going well.
Better idea is use traditional geologist seismic detection. And if the explosions collapse a few tunnels, well, what of it?
The most effective, cheapest, and safest way to end smuggling and pyramids of severed heads and all that would just be to legalize it. Legalize it all. For the harmless stuff there's no harm so who cares, and for the harmful stuff speed Darwinism along its inevitable course. Too many people in power making too much money on both sides, of course.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by TheLink on Tuesday February 25 2014, @04:01PM
They put small timers in jail for laundering magnitudes less (or for installing secret compartments into cars), but when it's billions, the banks just get fines they can bear. Who in HSBC, Wachovia, etc is in jail for laundering all that money?
Without those billions of laundered money the piles of severed heads would be much smaller - not as much money to pay for all the armies and wars. Those bankers and their friends really have blood on their hands.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:23PM
Of course they don't want to stop it, dry up their cash cow? The people who are vehemently against legalizing and regulating drugs are those who profit from their illegality. I wonder how much campaign cash has been funneled to US politicians by the cartels, who would be out of business if drugs were legal? Or by bankers who launder the drug money? Or owners of private prisons?
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25 2014, @07:30PM
and for the harmful stuff speed Darwinism along its inevitable course
http://www.literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/ christmas-carol/chapter-01.html [literature.org]
"If they would rather die they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."
wow...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by girlwhowaspluggedout on Tuesday February 25 2014, @03:00PM
Locating the exit points may be harder than it seems, since many of the tunnels mentioned in TFA have their exit points in a residential areas -- in houses and even in back yard sheds [ice.gov].
And what do you do with the tunnels once you discover their exit points? The Egyptians and the Israelis have been playing a never ending game of cat-and-mouse with Hamas's Gaza Strip tunnels for a number of years now. They, too, use ground penetrating radar and other such devices. But if they just destroy their exit points, Hamas simply "renovates" the tunnels starting from the middle areas [wikipedia.org]. Now, you can flood them with water, or pour concrete into them, but to make sure the tunnels are done for -- and empty of contraband, since they may also be used as temporary storage -- I guess you still need to send someone or something in.
Soylent is the best disinfectant.
(Score: 4, Funny) by anyanka on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:11PM
This is precisely the sort of case where you'd hire a merry band of adventurers to clear out the dungeons.
(Score: 5, Funny) by girlwhowaspluggedout on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:18PM
And that is precisely the sort of case where you'd install falling spikes, bear traps, and giant spiders to guard your cocai... your treasure.
Usted ha sido comido por un grue.
Soylent is the best disinfectant.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:13PM
Mark all enterances to the tunnel easily once you find it, just by filling it full of smoke and pumping air into it. Either that or a single stick of dynamite.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by girlwhowaspluggedout on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:53PM
Soylent is the best disinfectant.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:09PM
And instead of filling the tunnels with concrete, why not just a couple sticks of dynamite. It will collapse the tunnel and mark both ends for you.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Funny) by girlwhowaspluggedout on Tuesday February 25 2014, @02:19PM
I can already see the remake. And we all know that Guttenberg and Sheedy are free...
Soylent is the best disinfectant.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Barrabas on Tuesday February 25 2014, @05:10PM
As I understand it the problem is exacerbated by companies that want to hire the illegal workers, but are never penalized for doing so. It's always immigrants that bear the brunt of enforcement while we provide the incentive for them to come.
Is this correct?
Why can't we just let them in to become citizens? Our population growth rate is lower than the replacement rate [google.com], so population isn't an issue, and statistically they don't contribute to crime. Immigration has always helped us in the past (refer: the 1920's), and having hard-working people that pay taxes seems like a win all around.
Oh, except for those pesky businesses who want to hire illegals at a reduced rate. They would be inconvenienced a little, I suppose.
This cycle of human suffering has always bothered me. Can anyone explain a logical reason not to just fast-track them in as citizens?
(Score: 1) by etherscythe on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:19PM
Social services costs will drive up tax burdens on the incumbent citizens. We already have immigrants (both legal and not) coming over, having children, and having their medical bills subsidized by the government because:
a) hospitals can't turn away anyone even if they can't pay, and
b) we don't want hospitals going out of business
So, to make immigration self-sustainable, we may have to require many applicants to obtain a work or other visa and demonstrate they can pull their weight in society. If you can do that I have no problem with fast-track citizenship, but given the illegal worker market driving down wages for citizens and the crime issues (think drug cartels) which exist at least in border states, I'm not inclined to just throw the doors wide open. I do think that as long as the laws are being suitably enforced that we should welcome immigration; some of our brightest scholars and productive workers come from out of country. However, we aught to be careful we don't turn into one giant bread line. We're already playing World Cop and that's more than we should be doing already.
I think the businesses need to be responsible for verifying their workers are eligible to work i.e. have a proper SSN (that matches their photo ID) and so on, and there need to big penalties for improper hiring practices. Remove the profit incentive and the behavior will vanish, at least where it mostly counts. I don't know why we're not doing this more; it takes all kinds of money to process (i.e. feed and clothe in jail) and possibly deport individual people, who probably have very little money to soak in fines and court fees. Businesses, on the other hand, have bank accounts, larger cash reserves, and ongoing transactions to garnish from. Is somebody getting bribes on this?
"Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
(Score: 1) by adolf on Wednesday February 26 2014, @09:29AM
Eh?
Which, I think, is obviously preferable to letting people die just over there, across the street.
But where are the government subsidies for hospitals to cover the indigent and illegal? I can't tell if I'm playing the devil's advocate or my own advocate just now, because from what I've seen, it works like this:
1. Broken (sick/mangled) person enters hospital, turns out to also be broke. Hospital treats them (which they should do, always), and tries to get them to pay the bill.
2. Patient doesn't pay the bill.
3. The hospital -- not the government -- eats the bill, or sends the bill onto legal wherein:
4. Lawsuits happen. And then
5. Patient still does not pay the bill, and they have no assets to seize to pay the bill with.
6. The hospital eats the bill. Everyone else pays a higher price to keep the hospital's lights on, and their employees fed.
Am I missing a step somewhere about how things actually work?
(As a disclaimer: I'm all in favor of public, free healthcare -- whatever the cost. I've got a big problem with the notion of letting humans die of curable things just because of money...which we seem to be able to print plenty of to cover wars and killing people, but not very much for saving people.)
So where we we? Oh yeah! Tunnels. I like Minecraft.
I'm wasting my days as I've wasted my nights and I've wasted my youth
(Score: 1) by etherscythe on Thursday February 27 2014, @08:15PM
The federal Disproportionate Share Hospital [wikipedia.org] program is what I'm talking about.
Yes, the hospital eats some of it, too. And our costs go up at every step, because complexity breeds waste. I also agree that we should not let people just die on the streets; that's unsanitary and asking for plagues to break out, not to mention the ethical problems.
Either way, the citizens already in-country are being burdened with the services to those who are not productive members of society.
"Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
(Score: 1) by adolf on Thursday February 27 2014, @11:13PM
Which, I think, is exactly how it should be.
I'm wasting my days as I've wasted my nights and I've wasted my youth
(Score: 1) by etherscythe on Friday February 28 2014, @12:13AM
I agree there should be a safety net. I think we also agree that simply enforcing existing laws with sensible policies is mostly the best way to go as far as correcting the undocumented worker problem.
However, my original point was, not everybody is inclined to pull their weight and, not to be heartless or anything, but I don't know that we need to let in just *anybody*. I'd rather an immigrant show they have some kind of responsibility or useful skill. I might give an immediate pass to a college degree, for example, particularly to someone on a student visa graduating from a US institution. Successful history of paying taxes on a work visa would be another consideration.
Long story short, let's not allow ourselves to collapse under the overburden of an unsustainable immigration policy - it might be to everyone's benefit to instead provide through our foreign aid programs to developing countries, particularly given that much of the tax burden falls on the middle-to-low class workers anyway.
"Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
(Score: 1) by adolf on Friday February 28 2014, @12:43AM
But if we only let smart and talented people in, then all we really do is decrease the wages of the smart and talented people who are already citizens. We've already got enough people with college degrees working as highly-educated, under-employed line cooks.
It takes all kinds of people to have a healthy and functional society -- Rome needs ditch diggers, too. And I don't think ditch that digging should be a job solely reserved for native-born Americans.
That all said, I'm not exactly suggesting that the gates be thrown wide open for anyone who can muster their way across the river. There are some people (convicted violent criminals, for instance) who we might be better off without, but even they ought to have an opportunity to demonstrate that they've grown beyond that phase in their life and are now good-natured, productive people.
And I think that enough English to be conversational and read/write directions should be implicit, as well as a demonstration basic understanding of our legal system and general expectations and civic responsibilities, so they've got a fair shot at being useful people in the US.
I'm wasting my days as I've wasted my nights and I've wasted my youth
(Score: 1) by etherscythe on Friday February 28 2014, @12:58AM
I specifically mentioned the work visa for this reason; I don't really care what kind of work, just demonstrate somehow that you can be responsible on some level. So, in short, I think we are in complete agreement.
"Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
(Score: 1) by adolf on Friday February 28 2014, @02:53AM
Only if we grant work visas for ditch diggers.
I'm wasting my days as I've wasted my nights and I've wasted my youth
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday February 25 2014, @08:44PM
Our population growth rate is lower than the replacement rate, so population isn't an issue, and statistically they don't contribute to crime. Immigration has always helped us in the past (refer: the 1920's)
Which possibly contributed to a certain happening in 1929 (although from what I've read, the disparity between the rich and everyone else was the major cause).
But yeah, they want to hire illegals because they can pay them below minimum wage under the table.
mcgrewbooks.com mcgrew.info nooze.org
(Score: 1) by adolf on Wednesday February 26 2014, @09:03AM
While I realize that the US is a nation of immigrants and I'm chiefly in favor of allowing more (a lot more) immigration, especially with our peaceful neighbors to the north and to the south...that's an unpopular way to go about things. The people in power here seem to be of a "what's mine is mine, and if you don't have one too, you should just work harder" sort of mindset (as if we can all, somehow, be overachievers).
So while your opinion is a demonstrably unpopular one, I think that mine is probably even less popular:
If immigration is a problem because unwanted people are finding jobs better jobs here than they do there, then just take away the jobs. Tell Joe the Farmer that he can't hire Juan, his undocumented tomato picker, anymore.
Also, too: Tell Jane the Housewife that she can't hire Jaunita the undocumented housekeeper.
As the lucrative jobs disappear (and "lucrative" has very different meanings when money crosses borders), then folks will tend to stop tunneling their way north.
(If that's too much hardship for Joe and Jane, then perhaps Joe and Jane should re-evaluate their opinions on open immigration.
Just sayin'.)
I'm wasting my days as I've wasted my nights and I've wasted my youth
(Score: 2, Insightful) by O3K on Tuesday February 25 2014, @05:17PM
How many of you got claustrophobic chills thinking about that?
I've been in plenty of "cave tours" and the like, so I'm not "that" claustrophobic, but the thought of moving through an ad-hoc cramped tunnel underground where the quality of workmanship and engineering prowess was in the hands of shady drug dealers just makes me shudder.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by dj245 on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:26PM
I've been in plenty of "cave tours" and the like, so I'm not "that" claustrophobic, but the thought of moving through an ad-hoc cramped tunnel underground where the quality of workmanship and engineering prowess was in the hands of shady drug dealers just makes me shudder.
I'm not an international drug smuggler but I would put enough money into my tunnel that it wouldn't collapse. A tunnel like this is a big investment. If the tunnel collapses completely (or near completely), you've lost your entire investment. If it collapses partially, you have to pay for it to be repaired / redug while at the same time missing out on revenue from smuggling. Collapse also carries the risk of detection (may disturb the surface soil) and if someone dies then people will wonder what happened to them and start asking questions. Even if you have great intimidation powers on the Mexican side, all it takes is an anonymous tip to the US authorities and you lose your entire investment and maybe get caught red handed too.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by O3K on Tuesday February 25 2014, @10:51PM
I hear you - I have no doubts that the drug businessman behind the dug tunnels have vested interests in it remaining open for business. I just doubt I'd feel assured and confident that it was constructed with the utmost competence and know-how. The big bosses damn sure wouldn't be wiggling through this tunnel unless they were in a desperate circumstance, they'd send redshirts through.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 25 2014, @06:52PM
You have plenty of drugs with you after all.