Glenn Greenwald recently released a stunning story with journalists Laura Poitras and Ryan Devereaux about the NSA's ability to suck up the content of every phone call made in the Bahamas, Mexico, the Philippines, and Kenya along with one mystery country that The Intercept is refusing to reveal.
The program that the NSA uses to vacuum up the phone calls of an entire nation is part of a larger NSA program called MYSTIC. The Washington Post reported on the MYSTIC program earlier this year, but decided to not name any of the nations that MYSTIC was monitoring en masse. The Intercept took it one step further, but still did not released the name of one last country in that list due to "credible concerns that doing so could lead to increased violence."
That one step, however, was evidently not far enough for WikiLeaks. In a heated Twitter back-and-forth between John Cook, The Intercept's editor-in-chief, Jacob Applebaum, once a WikiLeaks hacker, now a Snowden document holder, WikiLeaks itself, and Glenn Greenwald, the voice behind the Wikileaks account berated The Intercept team for redacting the name of the final country. Applebaum went as far as calling that redaction "a mistake."
Could the "Chinese military into economic espionage" brouhaha be a source of noise to detract from something more damaging for NSA?
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Wikileaks revealed Friday that Afghanistan is the second of two countries, the first being The Bahamas, to have every phone call recorded by the NSA.
My personal opinion: While this may not come as a surprise to many (given Afghanistan's recent history and strategic location) one must not forget the ramifications of having an NSA hub in the Middle-East, as that may have been a contributing factor to Hamid Karzai's animosity towards America and its continuing involvement in Afghanistan.
Another note: I was the first person to guess the country here, based on an unusual experience years ago as outlined in the linked post -- I was told in a bong shop by the daughter of an NSA employee stationed in Afghanistan years ago!
Cf SN's earlier story: Wikileaks Threatens to Name NSA-target
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Geezer on Wednesday May 21 2014, @11:40AM
"Could the "Chinese military into economic espionage" brouhaha be a source of noise to detract from something more damaging for NSA?"
The NSA has proven to be such an egregious enemy of the Constitution and common decency that any harm that may come to it can only be viewed as beneficial to the common weal.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @11:50AM
Yeah, well careful what you wish for...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by sjwt on Wednesday May 21 2014, @11:50AM
Would the mystery country be the good old USA!
(Score: 2) by BsAtHome on Wednesday May 21 2014, @11:58AM
That would classify as "shit hits fan". Any other country where they do so would classify as "oh dear".
The worst part of the story is that we have not yet seen the end of it. Even worse, most countries are complicit and raise a finger in double standard way - lucky /we/ weren't caught red-handed - like style.
(Score: 2) by davester666 on Wednesday May 21 2014, @04:48PM
really?
we already have documented proof that the NSA was recording calls without a warrant, and congress leapt into action and gave all the telephone companies retroactive immunity from being sued, and DOJ immediately claimed the documented proof was a state secret and couldn't be used to prove the gov't has recorded the calls.
but they promise they aren't doing it anymore. pinky swear.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by VLM on Wednesday May 21 2014, @12:05PM
Begin with the assumption the "fear of increased violence" is true, and its not a coverup for a diplomatic issue. For example if its Canada there would be some diplomatic issues but violence is unlikely. Pretty much when the USA says jump, Canada says "how high" so maybe not even that. Maybe Germany is a better example of a country that would be a diplomatic nightmare but not a real violence threat.
Increased violence in the USA would be seen as a net positive, more fodder for the prison industrial complex. So if it was USA they'd admit it.
Mexico is a failed state like the wild west movies, criminal gangs run the place, beheadings and massacres and all that. And that wasnt' violent enough to scare them.
My money is on Palestine/Israel. We record everything anyone says and report to Israeli Intelligence. This fits in politically too, at least in public in the USA anything other that wild support of Israel is political suicide so mentioning it would just get the leak reporters tar'd and feather'd as hitler reincarnated.
I could be wrong and its actually Syria or whatever, but Israel is the best possible fit to the story, the PR, the politics, so if its not actually true, it probably should be true (or hasn't been released/discovered yet).
Slightly off topic, anyone want to talk about a new "Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact" ? Last time it didn't work out so well, but maybe this time... Sounds like it could be a tom clancy novel topic. I could totally see the Germans getting sick of cowboy diplomacy and american spies everywhere and neocon idiots and Putin offering less corruption than the americans and some natgas so the Germans don't need to boot their nuke plants back up, and inevitably as land powers the Germans and Russians need to come to an agreement far more than the Germans and the USA need to come to an agreement. So I could see the unnamed country being Germany and its all a political coverup to prevent Germany from running away from the usa and toward Russia and all this "violence" claim being BS.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @12:40PM
I don't think in Palestine anyone would be surprised if there is surveillance from Israel/US, and it could hardly result in *more* violence. Particularly pissed off by the US are currently countries like Pakistan and Yemen. In Egypt they're also loosing influence and many are quite unhappy with the military that has received financial aid from the US for so long.
Ukraine on the other hand would be hilarious.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:28PM
As I think about it this morning, I'm beginning to agree with AC here, Ukraine or Egypt sounds pretty likely.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @02:23PM
(Score: 3, Informative) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday May 21 2014, @04:01PM
2-3 years ago I strolled into a headshop, never mind why, when somehow the conversation between the clerk and I started focusing on government work. She was a clean-cut student in a college area who had worked there just because it was a job, and she mentioned that her father was in the NSA and stationed in Afghanistan.
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.
It stands to reason that the invasion of Afghanistan would serve to place an NSA hub there, to avoid the repercussions of planting one in a more sensitive position like Saudi Arabia or Quatar.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday May 21 2014, @09:15PM
First you have to thing about where there is ALREADY violence. (The fear of MORE would suggest a considerable level already). Second, you have to consider that this fear might be related to putting US/Nato troops in the target of said increase in violence.
I can't see the fact that Ukraine is full-take monitored by the US having a thing to do with the situation there. They are probably already full-take monitored by Russia, and they already know this. Ditto Egypt. We have precious few personnel in that country, and care little about how much they kill each other off.
Iraq, Afghanistan. Violence and bombings aplenty, Still US/Nato forces on the ground to serve as targets.
Distant runners-up, Pakistan, Syria. (Not that many US asses to be shot at in either country).
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by moondrake on Wednesday May 21 2014, @12:57PM
Personally I was thinking about something else.
Where did we recently see an increase in violence? combined with a diplomatic mess up?
answer: Ukraine
Antagonizing which country could make this far worse?
Now, what I am not sure about is whether or not the US can actually pull this off. But I would have the same doubts with the country you suggest (Israel), as they are generally quite good advanced in (counter)intelligence.
China seems to big, and, I do not see how it would result in direct violence.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday May 21 2014, @05:48PM
Israel is often cited as the US's closest ally, so I don't think we'd be doing this AGAINST them. More likely with their support and participation. Their government doesn't seem likely to have any moral qualms about this. And I don't see how that would increase violence in any way.
But, I believe the OP said "Israel/Palestine" -- Palestine I could see. Easy enough to do since a lot of their comms would run through Israel and we can certainly tap that with no problem. And if Israel helps in any way (likely even if they don't) it would be used as justification for more attacks on Israel. And Israel has a LONG history of over-reacting -- I have no doubt that they'd fire nukes if they actually felt threatened, since they respond to what are practically model rockets by obliterating entire towns with smartbombs.
Having said that...since it's not the US government doing the censoring, I'd put my money on Ukraine.
(Score: 1) by cykros on Thursday May 22 2014, @07:44PM
You don't think we would spy on Israel in this way? If not, I can't say it's because we're "friendly" with them so much as that we might be afraid of the repercussions when the Mossad uncovers the means of surveillance. Their directly attacking our military assets over it would not be the first time such a thing has happened... See: USS Liberty Incident.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday May 23 2014, @07:35PM
Well, point is moot now that they've announced it as Afghanistan, but...
Sure, of course I think we'd spy on Israel like that. I just think it would likely be with their government's cooperation. Even if it wasn't, their government would never go against us because we do damn near everything they want and provide them with tons of guns. And their citizens are already so used to mass surveillance and tight government control and mass human rights abuses that they wouldn't react any more violently than the US public has -- largely reacting by changing the channel!
(Score: 1) by hellcat on Wednesday May 21 2014, @07:21PM
Just to fill out the list of potentials, don't we also have Nigeria, Libya, and maybe Uganda and CAR as well?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by zocalo on Wednesday May 21 2014, @12:59PM
Israel would be probably be the most likely candidate for that, but I can imagine that the risk of losing Saudi Arabia as ally in the Middle East would be a PR disaster as well. Or, hey, maybe it's the UK. GCHQ seems to have done just about everything else it could do to "help out" the NSA and abuse the general populace, so why not?
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 1) by cykros on Thursday May 22 2014, @07:41PM
Israel/Palestine is a good hypothesis, and one I hadn't really considered. My money is otherwise on Ukraine, however, as it would be BOTH a diplomatic nightmare what with tensions with Russia over there as well as highly likely to fuel the existing violence. It would simultaneously look REALLY bad for Snowden to be in Russia while the intel he leaked plays right into Putin's hand...
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday May 21 2014, @12:12PM
No, I don't thinks so (and neither wish so). The reasons:
* "credible concerns that doing so could lead to increased violence." - which means there may be already violence there (or a very strong animosity against US, see below).
* Greenwald promised to reveal the country name in 72 hours [twitter.com]
The last point: it may well be the alluded violence would be directed towards some agents NSA employed to make the interception possible - so the info would be safe to release once they are evacuated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Informative) by Sir Garlon on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:12PM
Probably a simple mistake on your part, but Greenwald is not the one releasing the name of the country, he's the one who thinks it's important to keep it secret. He's the one who believes disclosure of that country would be irresponsible.
I doubt that; I would be more inclined to expect rioting ("violent protests") against whatever government is collaborating with the NSA. In that case it would be the rioters and innocent bystanders who are most likely to get killed.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 2) by mendax on Wednesday May 21 2014, @06:57PM
Is it really irresponsible for a journalist to reveal information about an irresponsible government policy such as the NSA sucking up the traffic of the entire cell phone network for a country? A rhetorical question mind you.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:39PM
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:20PM
Doubtful. No one would be surprised to find the NSA lied about not recording the contents of American phone calls, and based on the reaction to Snowden's disclosures over the past year, the general public would probably just shrug and mutter something about "not doing anything wrong, nothing to fear."
Where you'd see violence and loss of life is in a country where the population hates America, the government is collaborating with the US intelligence community, and the government's ability to suppress violence is already questionable. So, I'd guess Pakistan. Long shot: Columbia.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @07:12PM
the government's ability to suppress violence[...]I'd guess Pakistan
I've heard it said about Pakistan that is isn't so much a country with an army as it is an army with a county.
...unless you have some concrete evidence that there will be a successful mutiny in the ranks.
ISTM the gov't there could suppress anything that arose.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Wednesday May 21 2014, @07:53PM
No concrete evidence, just anecdotes that people do get killed in riots in Pakistan from time [wikipedia.org] to time. [cbsnews.com] When I think of people being killed in riots, I think of Pakistan. If you believe the government could prevent deadly riots, I'm not inclined to argue. I'm just attributing it to Hanlon's Razor, which is a rule of thumb, not an argument.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday May 21 2014, @02:46PM
This is the NSA performing what it was designed for: spying on other countries. Yes there's debatably an ethical issue, but if we stop doing it that's not going to have any effect on any other countries' spying programs.
This is just distracting from the oversightless gross Constitutional violations that the NSA is already in hot water for, and therefore not worth it in my view. Let's fix the things that there is no way in hell the NSA should be doing before we go after the things they're supposed to be doing but we* don't like.
*i.e. other people
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Wednesday May 21 2014, @04:56PM
Look at the bigger picture -- all the recent public and ramped-up incursions into foreign countries(as opposed to the shady but less publicized meddling in CIA's past), the wholesale removal of domestic rights -- this all is not just "business as usual." Something sinister is afoot, and we need to blow the lid off if it and fast!
Go Wikileaks!
(Score: 2) by AnonTechie on Wednesday May 21 2014, @07:52PM
What about North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, South Africa, Australia,
Albert Einstein - "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @11:57AM
I'm not sure what was so "heated" about the handful of twitter exchanges provided in the link.
That's just a stupid question.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday May 21 2014, @12:23PM
About 1 month before the first "Snowden files" release, I recall the US news were full of "we are being hacked by China" (I remember cold fjord was at his peak at that time on the green site).
It may well be a stupid question, but again it may be not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:52PM
Those kind of stories come out all the time. You can't just pay attention to the ones that come out just before some event that captures your interest and give those special weight. That's basically what "psychics" count on; rattle off a stream of predictions, then if one happens to come out around the time of some event (or even after: see Jeane Dixon's "prediction" of the JFK assassination) you jump up and down proclaiming your psychic ability.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:09PM
Personally I think its Pakistan. Our relationship is extremely tenuous and we rely on them heavily for our operations in Afghanistan. Furthermore if that relationship were to become strained it could lead to loss of American lives as one of our most necessary "allies" in the mid east becomes a clear enemy. It would inflame not just the Pakistani government but would give further fuel to Muslim extremists in Northern Pakistan. All Pakistan needs right now is another reason to drop the US like its hot and having its entire country spied on en masse would certainly cause a lot of problems for the US.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by dbot on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:21PM
Pakistan is a good one.
So is Egypt.
(Score: 1) by dbot on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:25PM
... and I guess, by extension, Ukraine.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @03:03PM
Not Ukraine, Russia.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @09:26PM
For all the talk about the War on Terror, I think it is a sign of incompetence if Pakistan was not being spied on. Pakistan is a duplicitous nation with lots of terrorists.
(Score: 1) by bill_mcgonigle on Thursday May 22 2014, @02:32AM
Funny, they make the same claims in reverse.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @01:14PM
I like the part where they "bomb" a foreign telecom with cyberattacks originating from supposedly rogue hackers and then offer to "help solve the problem". ..errr i mean supported.
preeetty sure telecom technology is tooo over-the-head for many 3rd and semi 3rd world countries.
if these countries are also allies or where major allies in some past war (vietnam?) you can bet
that the local telecom is 3 letter infected
(Score: 2) by dotdotdot on Wednesday May 21 2014, @02:22PM
(Score: 2) by dotdotdot on Wednesday May 21 2014, @03:26PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @04:00PM
I don't think so. The US doesn't care about North Korea at all. It's just important to them to keep confrontations up in order to have a reason for military presence in the region. Whenever there are softer tones from that regime, the US organizes a military drill in front of their borders again to provoke a response.
No one *really* cares what's going on inside the country.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JeffPaetkau on Wednesday May 21 2014, @04:37PM
I did a quick analysis based on this image:/ sites/1/2014/05/3.jpg [firstlook.org]
https://prod01-cdn00.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads
Based on word length the following country names are approximately correct fits:
Afghanistan
Bangladesh
Cape Verde
Timor-Leste
El Salvador
Guadeloupe
Vatican City
Hong Kong
Ivory Coast
Kazakhstan
South Korea
Kyrgyzstan
Madagascar
Montenegro
Netherlands
Philippines
Puerto Rico
Saint Lucia
Saint Martin
San Marino
Switzerland
Uzbekistan
It seems to me that several of those may make sense under the circumstances.
(Score: 1) by forkazoo on Wednesday May 21 2014, @05:20PM
It'll be interesting to see if you nailed it. My own arbitrary first guess when I first heard about this was Switzerland, which wound up on your list. It's relatively small, but strategically significant in several ways. I can see War On Terror types wanting to know if Swiss banks might be involved in funding terrorists and using wildly overkill techniques. It's certainly smaller than Phillipines, which has about 100 million people. But I think even Switzerland is probably too large for a "small scale" pilot program like this seems to be. Given the scale considerations, maybe Saint Lucia/Saint Martin/San Marino are more plausible than most of your list. OTOH, (partly because they are relatively small) I am almost completely unfamiliar with those countries, so I couldn't say which would be more interesting.
Anybody more dialed into the politics here with a more informed guess?
(Score: 1) by JeffPaetkau on Wednesday May 21 2014, @05:38PM
Ya, Switzerland would be interesting. I guess I just don't see why they would redact Switzerland if it was them. My guess is Hong Kong.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @06:02PM
Neither Switzerland nor Hong Kong would result in deaths. Both wrong.
(Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Wednesday May 21 2014, @10:07PM
Not sure how well one can claim to have "nailed it" when the shortlist comprises about 10% of all countries...
I wonder if we can narrow it down, though - what's the font? I'm no expert, but the lower case italic bold f looks a little unusual, and the slightly spacious kerning between "Ba" and "ma" in Bahamas could be a clue.
If it was, say Times New Roman (which in reality is only a vaguely close match in terms of how the words in neighbouring lines line up), then you could rule out Guadeloupe, Afghanistan, Timor-Leste, Vatican City etc for being too long (they push the "and" more in line with the "reason" above it).
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday May 21 2014, @05:38PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 21 2014, @07:20PM
North Korea?
It seems the database his script is using is incomplete.
It also has an error:
Puerto Rico isn't a country; it's an imperial possession of the USA.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by cykros on Thursday May 22 2014, @08:18PM
Hong Kong is as of the mid 90s part of China, so I think it'd be safe to rule out.
(Score: 1) by Deinfector on Friday May 23 2014, @09:55AM
According to Julian Assange, it's Afghanistan: http://wikileaks.org/WikiLeaks-statement-on-the-ma ss.html [wikileaks.org]