from the throwing-off-the-yoke-of-the-oppressor dept.
Italy's High Court has struck a blow to the practice of forcing non-free software on buyers of PCs and laptops. According to La Repubblica [Google translation], the court ruled on Thursday that a laptop buyer was entitled to receive a refund for the price of the Microsoft Windows license on his computer.
The judges sharply criticised the practice of selling PCs only together with a non-free operating system as "a commercial policy of forced distribution". The court slammed this practice as "monopolistic in tendency". It also highlighted that the practice of bundling means that end users are forced into using additional non-free applications due to compatibility and interoperability issues, whether they wanted these programs or not.
"This decision is both welcome and long overdue", said Karsten Gerloff, President of the Free Software Foundation Europe. "No vendor should be allowed to cram non-free software down the throats of users."
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The Free Software Foundation Europe(FSFE) (no connections to the Free Software Foundation(FSF), despite the name) has logged a win in Italy in court for the freedom to choose the operating system on new computers. Luca Bonissi won after two years of court battles. He won the first round in a kind of small claims court, but Lenovo responded by lawyering up and attacking. The court eventually rejected all of Lenovos argument, confirming that the right to reimbursment for pre-installed software is due. Further, an additional 20k EUR in damages were awarded to Bonissi.
In a historic judgment in Italy, in a case initiated by FSFE supporter Luca Bonissi, Lenovo was ordered to pay 20,000 euros in damages for abusive behaviour in denying to refund the price of a pre-installed Windows licence. In a motivating gesture for the Free Software cause, Luca donated 15,000 euros to the FSFE.
[...] It should go without saying that everyone should be able to freely choose the operating system to run on their personal computers. Free Software is about granting the liberty for people to freely run software they desire and, consequently, decline the software not respecting their freedom. But Microsoft and the vast majority of hardware manufacturers dishonour this principle by dictating which operating system their customers must use, forcing them to run Windows even when they simply do not want to.
See also the FSFE Windows Refund Guide and the Racketware Guide about how to avoid the Windows Tax.
Previously:
(2014) Windows Tax now Illegal in Italy
(Score: 5, Insightful) by wonkey_monkey on Saturday September 13 2014, @11:02PM
It's not really been ruled illegal, as far as I can tell. What has been established is the right to a refund. So it's illegal to refuse the refund, perhaps, but not to bundle Windows in the first place.
How's that? Windows came bundled with my laptop, but I'm not forced to use any additional non-free applications. Come to think of it, I'm not forced to use Windows either, as I can install another OS if I so wish.
While it's great that people can now get these refunds, I do think the tone of the article is just a little zealous. Unless someone's forcing you to buy a computer from a bundling manufacturer, I'd hesitate to call the "Windows Tax" involuntary.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 3, Insightful) by sjames on Saturday September 13 2014, @11:24PM
It can be fairly difficult to buy a laptop without Windows. So if you want something more sophisticated than a calculator, you will likely be forced to get a laptop with either Windows or OSX on it.
(Score: 2) by evilviper on Saturday September 13 2014, @11:45PM
Nope. Chromebook! [pricewatch.com]
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 3, Funny) by davester666 on Sunday September 14 2014, @12:55AM
Important point: "if you want something more sophisticated than a calculator"
(Score: 2) by evilviper on Sunday September 14 2014, @01:29AM
Many Chromebooks are just slightly older Windows laptops that have been upgraded to run ChromeOS. And it takes a minimum of effort to install and run a full Linux distro on them.
If you call a low-end laptop "a calculator", you've got a whole new level of absurdity going on. And being so extremely dismissive makes you look foolish, and detracts from any reasonable debate on the subject that could otherwise occur.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 2, Informative) by SirMarth01 on Saturday September 13 2014, @11:47PM
But the court's decision has nothing to do with making available alternatives to Windows. It simply ensures that you can buy a computer that has Windows preinstalled, then refuse to accept the Windows license, get a refund and install any alternative OS that you want, therefore nullifying any premium you had to pay for having Windows preinstalled.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @01:25AM
That is gonna get old real fast.
This meme will cut into already-razor-thin margins.
Making the right OS available from the start will quickly be recognized as the more logical, less expensive option for a vendor.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by evilviper on Sunday September 14 2014, @01:32AM
No. Retailers will just depend on consumer apathy, as they always have before. They'll still make profits off people who don't want Windows, but simply don't find the hassle worth the few dollars they could get back. They're hardly going to invest in supporting several different OSes to suit a tiny minority of people who care.
Hydrogen cyanide is a delicious and necessary part of the human diet.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by deimtee on Sunday September 14 2014, @02:11AM
The translated article is a bit unclear, but states that the refund is 140 euro. That is about 180 US dollars. That is enough to overcome a fair bit of apathy.
It sounds like they are forcing a refund of the retail value of windows, not the OEM cost.
If that is the case, then the retailers are going to drop bundled windows in nothing flat, and include it as an option with a defined cost.
Anti-bundling laws would seem to imply that they would also have to sell it independently for that same price.
That is what is really going to hurt MS, retail and OEM being the same price. Either they lose big on the retail sales, or OEMs stop installing it because no-one will pay the extra 140 euro.
One job constant is that good employers have low turnover, so opportunities to join good employers are relatively rare.
(Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Sunday September 14 2014, @01:08PM
The point is you cannot be taxed for buying SPECIFIC hardware and software together and propping up the M$ monopoly.
I haven't had a windows desktop for a decade, and every machine I have bought I get some broken version of Windoze which must have raised the price. Why?
About 8 years ago I tried to get my money back using some of the techniques online, but it rapidly became apparent that not only are the companies not ready to refund you, they are usually locked into a provision agreement. i.e. you sell ALL of your hardware with our software, otherwise you cannot have ANY of it.
Its a shame its just Italy...but its a start.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday September 14 2014, @02:34PM
I would love for a court to rule that if you don't agree to the EULA and your money isn't cheerfully refunded immediately on request, the software becomes yours. Not rented, not licensed, yours in the sense of first sale (that is, by breaching the agreement or causing it to be breached, MS has rendered the EULA null and void leaving only first sale to cover it).
(Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Sunday September 14 2014, @03:30PM
well the whole EULA fine print travesty needs to be binned. The commercial incentives want an asymmetric refund process, in the same ways as coupon manufacturers that want 2 pages of information to get a rebate.
It should be made flat out illegal to charge for software on a platform, without the express permission of the consumer. Neither should it be allowed to reduce the functionality of hardware for NOT purchasing software. I'm sure you can see who would complain...
In short, companies have ripped us off too long. Not just M$ ,but they are clearly the worst. And the fact they have used the broken US patent system to impose an Android tax, should make everyone concerned.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday September 14 2014, @04:39PM
Yes, more broadly, I would like to see any agreement not made perfectly clear in plain English (or whatever the predominant languages are in the area) before purchase (and in all advertising) is automatically void.
I would also like to see the magical morphing we reserve the right to change the agreement at any time without notice abolished.
(Score: 2) by captain normal on Saturday September 13 2014, @11:41PM
Not everyone can wipe the harddrive (+ the partition with the restore drive on it), then reformat and reset the boot so that a different OS can be installed. Hell it's damn near impossible for the average person remove all the cramware that MS and the manufacturers throw in.
We need judges like this in the US of A.
Grandine in Italia!!
The Musk/Trump interview appears to have been hacked, but not a DDOS hack...more like A Distributed Denial of Reality.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @06:35AM
Not everyone can wipe the harddrive (+ the partition with the restore drive on it), then reformat and reset the boot so that a different OS can be installed.
That's something like 5 mouse clicks in the Trisquel installer.
Hell it's damn near impossible for the average person remove all the cramware that MS and the manufacturers throw in.
This on the other hand is a nigh impossible task and also somewhat pointless. Even Micro$oft itself suggests nuking from orbit.
We need judges like this in the US of A.
Yes please!
(Score: 2, Interesting) by lentilla on Sunday September 14 2014, @07:26AM
That's something like 5 mouse clicks in the Trisquel installer.
Perhaps. But does one end up with a usable laptop having done so?
In making that comment I feel like a traitor to the cause - and believe me - I really believe what the FSF is doing is right and necessary. That being said, even I use the Debian non-free installer since; moral imperatives not withstanding; I need my laptop to actually work. And by "work", I mean functioning WiFi and video. I'll accept a few ragged edges here-and-there, but; for the simple reason that living in the present; my computer has to work sufficiently well that I can get work done today.
(Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Sunday September 14 2014, @05:19PM
so perhaps in the modern era, there should be the equivalent of crowdsourced installs. I don't mean just distros I literally mean clinics setup to install FOSS X on platform Y. Everyone publishes the experiences, and the "tide rises all boats".
The point is, some machines it is trivial. e.g. my last laptop was an HP DV2000 (ancient), but opensuse worked fine. The biggest problems are nearly always attached devices e.g. camera, bluetooth, audio . Video is pretty straight forward since Intel is FOSS, Nvidia has good blobs and competent FOSS. AMD has a blob, but is a bit unstable, but the FOSS is stable.
Once it is working, it become easier to improve on.
But with a new laptop, most modern distros will SAVE the windoze configuration so that it can be booted from. At least, it used to be an option...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @06:30PM
clinics [set up] to install FOSS X on platform Y
There's a term for that. Installfest [google.com]
There have been some major, well-publicized events e.g. Lindependence 2008 [google.com]
and annual Linux Against Poverty Install-Fest [google.com]
It sounds like you want something even more fine-grained than that.
I await the announcement of your event in your area using your particular skillset.
(Lead by example.)
-- gewg_
(Score: 4, Insightful) by aristarchus on Sunday September 14 2014, @12:36AM
Unless someone's forcing you to buy a computer from a bundling manufacturer, I'd hesitate to call the "Windows Tax" involuntary.
Yes,quite so, completely voluntary. No one is forcing you to buy a laptop with a pre-installed OS. They are just making it impossible, by means of industry collusion and threats, for you to buy one without an operating system! So of course you are free! You can choose a Windows machine, an Apple machine, a Google machine, or choose not to have a machine! The number of choices is astounding! Isn't the free market amazing?
(So, in case I was not clear, the article is actually way "under-zealous".)
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Sunday September 14 2014, @12:37AM
This has to have been an act of God. How else could something right and correct have made it through the legal system? Either that, or it's a sign of the impending apocalypse.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @03:29AM
It's from Italy, not the US.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @09:10AM
Oh, Mafia then. Rather unusual move on their part!
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday September 14 2014, @11:31AM
Microsoft has refused the Mafia Tax and now has to pay..
We know where Redmond is, and will make an even better offer for you soon..... ;)
(Score: 1) by lentilla on Sunday September 14 2014, @07:05AM
This is brilliant news - especially if there is a pre-defined refund amount because it means there can be no argument and no haggling when a customer wants a refund. (The translated version seems to indicate a pre-defined 140 euro refund amount.) The process is now simple: "I'd like a refund on the Windows license I'm not going to use"... followed by "yes, sir".
Perhaps better late than never but I can't help but rue the fact this is at least twenty years too late. Yes, twenty. The legal system moves far slower than advances in computing and slower than business. I can't help but wonder how different the scene would be had this been in place all those years ago.
According to the Laws of Unintended Consequence what will now happen is all computers will quickly become approximately 140 euros more expensive in Italy. If Windows can be easily removed then crapware peddlers won't pay stores to bundle their junk and the shortfall will have to be made elsewhere. I feel sorry for Italian brick-and-mortar computer retailers - if they weren't already hurting, they will now.
Hopefully the rest of Europe will follow suit in short order. Hats off to the Italian government - somebody had to make the first move.
Wouldn't it be funny if Apple was forced to refund the cost of OSX on computer purchases? Or even more amusing, iOS on iPhones?
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Sunday September 14 2014, @02:23PM
Sometimes it seems like entire business models depend on the slowness of legal systems. The MS tax, and the heaps of other dirty dealing (file format lock in, office upgrade treadmill, bundling of IE, running roughshod over standards to try to make their proprietary version the standard, and FUD) all made them a lot of money, but it always had this risk. What will MS do if all their dirty deals are really shut down everywhere, no little wrist slap of a fine for "monopolistic behavior"? Find another hook and exploit it for another 20 years? Can they find more hooks forever? Or will they give up and go out of business? Or drastically shrink and compete in the market on merit?
Can business sophistry of MS's sort ultimately be sustainable? 30 years and reaching number 1 is a good run, but if they die because both the law and the market decided they'd had enough, what lessons will people take away? That even if unethical exploitation pays for only a short while, it's worth it if it pays enough? Or that crime doesn't pay?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @06:44PM
the Laws of Unintended Consequence
I'm guessing you have never worked in the end of a business that was concerned with how much money is made.
Y'know, the part that constantly asks "How can we out-compete everyone else?".
all computers will quickly become approximately 140 euros more expensive in Italy
...except for the the ones offered by vendors who want to sell the living shit out of their goods.
Those folks will advertise their stuff as the No viruses, No-blue screens, No reboot-reboot-reboot platform that is €140 cheaper than the competition.
-- gewg_
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Lagg on Sunday September 14 2014, @08:08AM
This is something that should have happened a long time ago and I hope happens in the US (hah... Now I'm depressed) but some of the things that the FSF says seems to have Richard all over it. I'm disillusioned with them for many reasons that go back years so I might be biased but I don't really like the "No vendor should be allowed to cram non-free software down the throats of users". No one should be allowed to cram software down people's throats period. I've considered directing people to a few places that sell prebuilts with linux and it's almost impossible to just stick a factory condition /or wiped HD in these machines.
I don't want ubuntu crap or even worse gnewsense crap installed when I'm trying to get people to move to a better system but it often is anyway and is just another chore to make people do and give them a bad impression when they boot up. Yes I know that otherwise they'd just boot to a "no bootloader" error but that isn't the point and it'd sure as hell be better than gnewsense. It also strikes me as rather hypocritical that they talk about shoving things people down their throats when all they ever do is parrot Richard's own definition of free software to nigh evangelist levels.
I know. I'm biased. I'm angry at them and have been for a long time but still. Why couldn't the just have s/non-free//g and left it at that.
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 1) by lentilla on Sunday September 14 2014, @09:18AM
Why couldn't the just have s/non-free//g and left it at that.
They probably should have. I'm with you on that.
Perhaps it's an attempt at marketing - albeit not a particularly good one. How exactly does one market a moral position - an idea without a product? Cut them a little slack - it can't be an easy task.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @09:51AM
The bundled software is both Free as in speech and free as in Beer. So why are you complaining? Ubuntu bundled or no OS costs the same. It's not like you've paid an extra €140 for software that you won't use, as when Windows is bundled.
(Score: 3) by maxwell demon on Sunday September 14 2014, @10:58AM
Actually, even if you don't plan to use Ubuntu, buying a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled at least makes reasonably sure that it contains no components that don't work with Linux.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Sunday September 14 2014, @12:39PM
Fair enough point and I'd be fine with that if they wouldn't imply in a hopefully unintentional way that it's okay to cram free software down people's throats. Regardless of it being free as in libre or beer it's still down to people having the right to have a factory wiped drive and depending on how picky you are about your drives you might not like that it had bits flipped before you allowed it. Sounds silly I know but not entirely unreasonable if that's what people want.
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @09:43PM
It is the FSFE, the "E" is for Europe. I get the impression they are independent of the US-based FSF, and not a subsidiary. This is how Wikipedia describes them: "It is as an official European sister organization of the U.S.-based Free Software Foundation (FSF). FSF and FSFE are financially and legally separate entities."
I'm sure they drink the same kool-aid, but they aren't the same people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 14 2014, @10:45PM
I'm biased.
...and not in a good way, IMO.
Locate someone who was foolish enough to buy some very expensive equipment which will ONLY run under (now unsupported) eXPee.
Ask him how he feels about the position running obsolete closed-source software has put him in.
Now, ask him how he'd like it if his software was open and could be updated by any competent coder [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [goodbyemicrosoft.net]
--rather than y'know being left high and dry by a company (that didn't even build the hardware).
...and as maxwell demon has noted, if *any* distro comes preinstalled, you already know there is Linux support for all of that kit.
A lateral shift to another disto is duck soup.
...and, of course, if you avoid hardware with poor manufacturer support and proprietary file formats from the start, a lot of the "problems" disappear.
Stallman thinks that running unverifiable code (a pig in a poke) is a bad idea.
Apparently you haven't been burned badly enough doing that and will continue until you have been burned.
You are contented with the notion of ownership of knowledge and the ability to horde that.
The current generation of kids know that meme is obsolete.
3 decades on since his printer episode, Stallman looks more and more insightful.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by Vokbain on Sunday September 14 2014, @08:57AM
So if you buy a Mac in Italy and don't want to run OS X, can you get $20 back?
Actually, isn't OS X free these days (to download the latest version from the Apple Store, at least)? Never mind then.