posted by
janrinok
on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:32PM
from the stoking-the-systemd-flame-war dept.
from the stoking-the-systemd-flame-war dept.
Systemd will have a console daemon, replacing the kernel console, to the applause of phoronix forums.
And of course, it will make even more impossible to use anything besides systemd with the Linux kernel, as a side effect, which seems even more to be the goal. Is there nothing that systemd will not eventually do?
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Systemd 217 will Include a Console Daemon
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(Score: 4, Interesting) by Horse With Stripes on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:46PM
Since systemd (aka "systemdestroy - the system that destroyed Linux) wants to be a monolithic beast that consumes and controls everything why not let it fork the kernel and start its own OS: SystemD?
When all your eggs are forcefully crammed into one basket, what could possibly go wrong?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:30PM
bash - 175,000 lines of code. Multiple audits missed Shellshock.
openssh - 300,000 lines of code. Multiple audits missed Heartbleed.
systemd - 250,000 lines of code and growing fast. What could possibly go wrong?
(Score: 2, Troll) by BasilBrush on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:38PM
Multiple audits of BASH and OpenSSL? Wishful thinking. They only got audited after the horses had bolted.
The fact that venerable software components have long standing vulnerabilities is hardly an argument for not creating new more modern software.
Hurrah! Quoting works now!
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:34PM
The problem is not systemd modernity, nor its creation, the problem is systemd adoption. There have been other init systems addressing the shortcoming of sysvinit and other software that deals with the other aspects of systemd functionality. And nobody was complaining because they were newer and more modern.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:51PM
I think you meant OpenSSL, not OpenSSH.
(Score: 2) by meisterister on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:09PM
Quick question: how could bash possibly be 175,000 lines long?! That's some extreme complexity, even for a pretty complex shell!
(May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
(Score: 1) by Horse With Stripes on Wednesday October 08 2014, @11:18PM
how could bash possibly be 175,000 lines long?!
Comments count when you get paid by the line! ;-)
(Score: 2) by bugamn on Thursday October 09 2014, @03:09AM
Generating documentation is still work :P
(Score: 3, Interesting) by maxwell demon on Thursday October 09 2014, @07:55AM
Note: The actual post content follows the italic text.
Err ... no. I'll just add this meaningless prefix text to get the compression filter accept my text without compromising my answer.
Obviously I need quite a bit of filler text to circumvent that filter; let's make compression harder:
turie gfjkds asdfg erasik xy lalawe bortzesker ferkl lalelu äöü as asa beroz ya qwq u78 a# 3 3 25 0xdeadbeef
5423 458923 653920 56920 9082 890ß32890ß234 v543891 4531890ß 43129ß0 4390ß 54390ß
gfds gdk feg thiwi gfdk gejwjrioe f ghfiodsp gefsp fdsö gefa g süjklö fasd efia fesw tew re dfökljklöds fdsjk löfd erijow fdsö jfdslkö reiop
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
Quick brown dogs jump over the lazy fox.
(a) & [b] = {c} +
@ł€¶ŧ←↓→↓→ æſð ˝^¨~ asadafaga teretadus elmawas.
Asadafaga element 658940 gfsdk gdf ghfds gfdsjklö sdfß hfds jödsfa gfdksoö jogpfsdüaäj ksdö ghdfs hdfasö jkfdlösh gpdfas jgfieopwag dm,sh bjsdl jkdfslö hgiofewaüu 90gre nmdsöhfdpos ufesßüa jdfks hjgfds 9fepwah gmfkdslö hjfdsp hjrwpug jrj jfhsb 89 hgdös fd0üß dkofs jhig0s´ t9rih9te0s hklgds jhkgädsf hklgö khglösä hklgösä khlögsä khlgösä 80trßs hjio üsdi ho0üs hsö hjsö hjopsüri90rte´ lhögskl öhägsd 9h0gsrü hlögsiogüfsi0ß hgdslä hkgädshßgo0+hgsdfü i9hßg´s hfdsp h9gßsf söj hig0sdüf jhkglösf jheti0sa´u ht9r8 9hgj fdspü 90hgßsdf hjknv cau8htur8swy bgfbjhidfsö jhithgiofps jhishjiodgsj heßawü dfsh igodps sujit9tßrwih 0ßjkgs hkglsdj hgioprsjghiosü js hshig0üs khlgs hgokshjiru dghsjkö s jhdsb jfdaskl gmfldanksdl hg
Actual content begins here.
Ah, so you can increase your salary by replacing
by
More junk follows in order to try to please the compression filter.
hgfkdsl dfjskl hsdfkü uht90 jhkgds jhfdslö hjhkfdslö hjdsp klöües9 ghi89 0ßdfsjkhglödfs fös jhgkdslö jier0aü h8 h90ßgsh kgfsdlö dhksfö jhkdfoasö hkl dfshoifpghfidaüpä kglfdöasn jkfhdaiop jgkfdlsöh fkpdsj kkkkkkdlsö dfs iodfspü jklhödsjk hlöfdas hfdsö jhkldsö hjdfaklä hjfkldaö hjiodfpa ophfdüajkhjfdkalö hjkfdlaöj hiopfadui ohpdfsja khödfjas hklfdajhklöfdajopiüjuipzhm önadfjkg jifsadh jfakdlöh flasd hjkfash jgklfhda jgkfhae uipgfadio gfjkhg dag jköfdagj kofasdöh ga jhkfdah zkiofdaöjgkflöasd jgklöasdf gi0fadspug 980reuitouf kdohgfdasp u890reßa gfodasp g8bfdagj fadkslö jgkflasdjg klösfad jgkfasdöutg89ragnmk ldfhasjklg ui0fosdaj gkfhdaug pja oghfjdklash tuioreaj kgnfdymkl hgioadfsj gknfk hgifodpa kofd jigofaj kfdhlas giofadsjkglfasdjö hfaejü gfadlöns ghfnydjkg fa jkoghajkfsdakogfpasd hgofpasd fasdo oghfsap hgfasd ujiofasdhg gfajkflasdö hioasfüj kfas iofsüa jhfgiopas hfgepaoh iroaü r90ew´ i0reüa i0rüea
(Score: 1) by Horse With Stripes on Thursday October 09 2014, @08:33AM
I don't know about your calculation, but the stuff you used to combat the compression filter looks like code I've produced before ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @09:05AM
Ah, I see, you are a Perl programmer.
(Score: 1) by Horse With Stripes on Thursday October 09 2014, @01:21PM
Ah, I see, you are a Perl programmer.
Touché
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @01:53AM
Built-ins. Turing completeness. Downward compatibility. Portability workarounds. Actually, built-ins could cover any amount of bloat.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by cykros on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:54PM
More likely, given how much turf it's taken over, we'll see the need to fork Linux to keep it free of systemd. Call it Freedom^3 or something....free as in speech, free as in beer, and free as in free of systemd.
I think Pat's gonna need some help with that...he's not getting any younger.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:19PM
Name suggestion for new distribution:
* Initware
* Debinit
* Initan
* Poettefuck
* Sievpoett crusher
Btw, What business model makes Red Hat so interested in pursuing systemd? Do they have the same sponsorship deal that SCO had in 2004 ..?
(Score: 3, Informative) by morgauxo on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:33PM
Distribution names:
Gentoo
Slackware
Linux From Scratch
Need a name for an init system that takes care of the good things SystemD promises without all of SystemDs BS?
How about openrc
What? Are those names already taken?
(Score: 1) by Kunasou on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:38PM
Poettefuck sounds great.
And the idea of consoled sounds scary, the console works fine now, we don't need replacements.
(Score: 1) by Horse With Stripes on Wednesday October 08 2014, @11:20PM
Poettefuck sounds great.
Um, I don't want to fuck a French poet. I'm just sayin'
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:44PM
Red Hat has always had a bad case of not invented here. Also, Red Hat makes their money by selling support and services. If your in house guy runs into a problem he can't do or needs training on a new technology, Red hat makes the dough.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:53PM
Unless I'm missing something (which is definitely possible) "Debinit" wouldn't make sense as a name, as Debian already jumped on the systemd bandwagon.
Maybe Slackwinit?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:23PM
Update it to Debplore ? ;-)
And debnit for the systemd free fork .. :p
(Score: 2) by cykros on Saturday October 11 2014, @04:59PM
You are missing something. These are names for an eventual fork of Debian for when they entirely drop support for sysvinit (it IS still in the repos, just advised against by their dev team).
(Score: 2) by meisterister on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:13PM
Implementation idea: To implement the distro, we should fork one of the *BSDs and put a Linux kernel in there (if possible). The scary thing that I see is that the *BSDs are becoming more open and caring about their users than the mainstream distros.
(May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:25PM
Why not go full BSD? Linux "emulation" under BSD is actually faster than under native Linux when I read about it. The only thing Linux seems to benefit from is support and plethora of hardware driver.
(Score: 2) by meisterister on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:45PM
I just saw some benchmarks. Needless to say, I'm ditching Linux when Mint 17 EOLs.
Link to the benchmarks for those who are interested (these are the first benchmarks I could find):
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_games_bsd&num=1 [phoronix.com]
(May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @07:29AM
If FreeBSD Linux emulation is capable of running Steam (and the games, of course), I'm willing to give it a try.
From what I've read, it's not there yet.
(Score: 2) by jbernardo on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:16PM
Well,
You could always do what mainstream users did until recently, keeping a windows image to boot into when they wanted to play games. It seems a bit strange keeping linux around only for steam games, but it has been further away from happening...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 11 2014, @05:32PM
I'm not sure who it makes sense to to go buy a Windows license to play games instead of the free option if your games are supported on it. Wine is one thing, but actually dropping a couple hundred bucks on software that abuses the user? I'll pass.
(Score: 2) by cykros on Saturday October 11 2014, @05:04PM
That BSD actually gives you something to tout LINUX'S hardware support when compared to is probably the biggest argument against it getting massive adoption. Those of us with hardware we bought with the intention running Linux on it sometimes forget how much of a headache it still can be when you're trying to slap it onto a machine that shipped out running Windows (though make no doubt, it's a LOT easier now than it used to be...and cheaper to replace something when a small bit of hardware like a wifi card isn't compatible).
That said, BSD has been one of the places people are flocking to. Personally, Slackware is Unix like enough for my tastes, and without trying to stir up shit, I do have my reasons for preferring the GPL over the BSD licenses. If Volkerding accidentally ingests a liter or so of mercury and throws systemd into Slackware, it is an escape route I'm willing to consider, but I'm not quite ready to abandon the viability of Unix-like Linux quite yet.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Saturday October 11 2014, @05:53PM
At the point when Slackware goes Micros^H^Hsystemd there ought to be enough developers willing to make a distribution without it to happen?
(Unless Gentoo becomes the distro of choice)
Makes me wonder if Tails will be systemd'd ;-)
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Blackmoore on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:51PM
ok, I was already going to look for distro that did not include systemd; and now it's clear I'll either have to roll my own, and learn to avoid Gnome applications entirely.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:57PM
Slackware has no systemd and is unlikely to ever change in that respect.
Gentoo has it as an option - it works just great without it.
And of course all the BSDs do without it as well.
LFS is a viable option as well, but dont make the mistake of thinking it's the only one. There are still several decent *nix OSes out there to choose from.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by CRCulver on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:29PM
Over on today's ./ discussion, a Gentoo user claims that even on Gentoo, systemd has snuck its tendrils through so much desktop software that avoiding it is becoming a pain.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Arik on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:54PM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:06PM
Agreed. Likely a user emerged something that has systemd as a dependency. It's very possible that someone didn't realize that installing a desktop environment would kill their existing logging/init/whatever else.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @11:44PM
It's not "whatever else". It's "everything else" when it comes to systemd.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:59PM
"desktop software"
My advice, avoid desktop software.
My desktop environment is chromium browser, konsole (although I'm open to anything else that speaks UTF-8 fluently), occasional VNC, and emacs. And xmonad's virt desktops.
I checked out gnome to see its desktop website about 20 seconds ago, "Tomboy is a note-taking application.". So how does it compare to emacs org mode and evernote in my web browser? I'm guessing not very well.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by pnkwarhall on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:44PM
"Tomboy is a note-taking application"
LOL - I'm pretty sure that's a literal quote from an "Intro to Gnome"-type tutorial, but it could easily be taken for parody of the TONS of useless OSS out there. Someone earlier in the comments was modd'd insightful for
The fact that venerable software components have long standing vulnerabilities is hardly an argument for not creating new more modern software.
...I have problems understanding what that sentence means, especially in the context it's in, but it seems to me that almost nobody needs an excuse for writing new software. From what I can tell (IANA software engineer), almost everyone would prefer to write a new "app" as opposed to fix or maintain an old one. And it's created a useless glut of "Tomboys".
Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:07PM
Tomboy, [wikipedia.org] a notorious application best known for its pulling of Mono into numerous distributions of GNU/Linux [techrights.org]
how does it compare to emacs org mode and evernote in my web browser? I'm guessing not very well
That about covers it--if you don't include the another-systemd-before-systemd aspect.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday October 09 2014, @08:02AM
Tomboy using Mono may be bad, but the concept as such is good. It basically is a private Wiki for your desktop (and unlike real Wiki doesn't force you to run a web server to use it).
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @09:48AM
https://live.gnome.org/Gnote [gnome.org], A port of Tomboy to C++
(Score: 3, Interesting) by CRCulver on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:49PM
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:56PM
Don't edit like most people, or use online photo editing like most of the social services offer for free, or edit on the phone that took the pix, or use 3rd party online photo editing.
Or, like I have implied, someone who does prepress (is gimp able to do 24 bit color prepress yet, that was a big debate years ago) might have photoshop as their "one application".
Perhaps 0.001% of the population will be power users using many apps. They'll deal with it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @09:14AM
Sorry, if there's one thing worse than systemd, it's replacing local applications with the cloud.
I keep my photos on my local hard disk, thank you very much.
(Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:57PM
Odd...I keep hearing this.
I've been using GIMP under Gentoo forever, currently 2.8.10, with no systemd, and I didn't even have to override any USE flags to do so.
(Score: 4, Informative) by CRCulver on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:01PM
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:27PM
It's crap like this that explains why no one believes a word the systemd cabal spouts anymore.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:35AM
It's a phantom dependency inserted in Debian - GIMP works fine on systems where systemd isnt even an option.
It's not even that. It's a recommendation to install dbus, which will install a library that allows dbus to interact with systemd. systemd itself doesn't install just because you have gimp installed. The people claiming it does don't know what they're talking about. I'm using Debian's testing repository and gimp is not inextricably tied to systemd as people keep claiming.
For what it's worth, I've been using Debian since 2000, and Debian testing as a pseudo rolling-release distro since around 2004. And, unlike other people here, I actually understand the difference between a "Recommends" line and a "Depends" line in apt.
Systemd is an annoying, system-consuming pile of crap from an obnoxious, shoddy programmer. I don't want it any more than the other people complaining. However, I've gotten sick of the "gimp needs systemd" argument because it's just giving the systemd advocates another excuse to shrug off any complaints. All the gimp argument does is let people say "oh look, those silly anti-systemd people keep saying gimp requires systemd. They're idiots we can ignore them"
udev being folded into systemd is a problem. Folding a console into systemd is a problem. Binary-only logfiles that randomly corrupt and it's considered EWONTFIX is a problem. The fact that systemd has an all-or-nothing monolithic design that means users and devs can't just use the parts they want without having to get all the extra crap. Poettering getting directly involved in the decision-making behind many major parts of the desktop stack and then using that as a way to force systemd dependencies on the other components is a problem. Plenty of other problems, too.
But why complain about that? Let's just have everybody on SN talk about how "gimp requires systemd" and undermine the valid arguments. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if I were to find out that the people seeding the discussions with that are actually pro-systemd and trying to undermine the whole argument.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Thursday October 09 2014, @01:27AM
I havent used a .deb distribution in several years, I dont remember the answer to that, and even if I did it would be out of date, so tell me, is that the default and/or recommended configuration for apt-get install to drag in anything recommended as well?
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @01:58AM
I believe the default is to install recommends (I've had it turned off for years, but it most likely still is), but even then, it isn't installing systemd. It's just installing a library so that dbus can work with systemd when present, in the same way that gimp installs libs that allow interacting with dbus when present, but those libs, likewise, don't require dbus itself.
The actual systemd package is named "systemd", and contains all the systemd stuff. "systemd-sysv" is the package that switches the init, and "systemd-shim" is the one that helps systemd work with non-systemd inits. None of these install when installing gimp, even if you keep the default of auto-installing recommended packages.
So, yes, the complaint is still frivolous. Complaining about gimp using libdbus and dbus using libsystemd-login0 is about as silly as complaining that gimp installs libexif12 to interact with EXIF data in images if present. It's not mandating that you use EXIF data, it's just taking advantage of it if present. Or, a better example: gimp has liblcms1 (a colour management library) as a dependency, but that doesn't mean that you have to have a colour-managed display and the other parts of littleCMS installed to use gimp. Gimp just has the libs needed to use it if it's there.
I didn't go into the libsystemd-login0 vs systemd difference in the reply to you because I'd covered it in another reply nearby, but the explanation comment is here [soylentnews.org] if you're curious. Explains how to see the dependency tree both with and without recommendations, as well as what dbus is actually bringing in. And it's not systemd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:56PM
Does not. Gimp requires libdbus, which _recommends_ dbus, which requires libsystemd.
Though debian by default will offer to install recommended packages, it seems one can still avoid systemd and have gimp.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:23AM
On Debian, GIMP requires dbus, and dbus requires systemd. Furthermore, GIMP requires libgegl, and on Debian that has a pulseaudio dependency (another Lennart package many would like to avoid).
No, gimp does not require dbus, and I wish people would quit up-modding this shit when it's completely false. One of the libs gimp uses recommends dbus be installed, but it's not a dependency. Turn off auto-install of "recommended" packages and dbus won't pull in automatically.
Furthermore, dbus isn't installing systemd either. It's installing libsystemd-login0, which is a library that, as the debian package states, "provides an interface for the systemd-logind service". It's not actually systemd, and it doesn't install systemd itself.
You can verify this easily enough in Debian with apt-rdepends. By default it only follows Depends,PreDepends, so apt-rdepends gimp won't have anything that touches systemd listed. If you want to find the systemd lib, you have to use
apt-rdepends --follow Depends,PreDepends,Recommends --show Depends,PreDepends,Recommends gimp. By following recommendations you can get a systemd lib, but it still doesn't install systemd itself.
Installing gimp doesn't magically trash your init, and people need to stop claiming this bullshit. The people claiming it are wrong and need to either do some fact-checking, stop making shit up, or pick up a better understanding of how their systems work.
I don't like systemd, I don't want to use it, and I find it annoying that I have to actively avoid it in Debian. I fully support people complaining about it and fighting for alternatives. However, there are plenty of good reasons to complain about sytemd without trotting out this terrible argument! Use them instead!
(Score: 2) by CRCulver on Thursday October 09 2014, @09:07AM
libsystemd-login0 and libsystem0 are not simply unobjectionable binding code that Debian brought. They is developed by Poettering and considered part of systemd. "systemd" is Debian's upstream name for these libraries, they are all drawn from Poettering's project. That you fail to note this makes one wonder what exactly your agenda is.
When people say they don't want systemd, they aren't just talking about running systemd as their init system. People don't want any of the systemd code installed on their computers.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @10:46AM
That you fail to note this makes one wonder what exactly your agenda is.
The only "agenda" I have is I'm sick of seeing you, VLM, and some others throwing out that same ridiculous, problematic, factually incorrect gimp example. It's foolish, wrong, and you're just undermining far better arguments against systemd by focusing on something that isn't even accurate.
Also, that little snipe at my character is an insulting and petty way to try discrediting my comments. You can easily dig through my posting history and see that I'm not exactly giving glowing praise to pulseaudio, systemd, Sievers, or Poettering in anything I say. Furthermore, it's telling that you couldn't refute my statements and had to immediately go for the sleazy insinuations instead.
When people say they don't want systemd, they aren't just talking about running systemd as their init system. People don't want any of the systemd code installed on their computers.
Really? I haven't seen people complain about various libs that are largely useless without the software they interface with present. The complaints I've seen have been about systemd's init, logging, login services, udev folding into systemd, the hard dependency of polkit and upower, feature creep, etc.
Those are all issues with systemd the service, not some interface libs. If you're not willing to accept the presence of some random libs like that, then you really shouldn't be using a precompiled distro at all. Sounds more like Linux from Scratch is where you need to be, because with a distro that gives precompiled software, you're inevitably going to get some libs for crap you don't really need to support software or hardware you don't even have for the sake of greater compatibility.
This isn't a war over some interface libs. There's plenty of unnecessary libs already floating around every Debian system for the purpose of supporting software that not everyone uses. For example, I've had libs for any number of sound servers on my system (arts, esd, pulse, jack) over the years despite using ALSA directly. It's normal for these distros and doesn't hurt anything. Systemd's problems lie elsewhere.
The point, which you haven't managed to refute, still stands. Gimp isn't underhandedly installing pulseaudio and systemd, even if you're auto-installing recommends like a newbie. Gimp isn't causing your Debian system to change inits and destroying your plaintext logging.
Now, if you replaced "Gimp" in these arguments with "Network Manager", you'd have a valid argument. Network Manager depends on policykit-1, which I believe does end up with a direct requirement for systemd. So does upower and udisks2. So, you can find a slew of stuff to complain about with apt-rdepends --reverse and any of those three (policykit-1, udisks2, or upower). Udisks2 is especially problematic because a lot of desktop environment bits are starting to expect it for removable storage management.
Basically, what I'm saying is systemd has plenty of problems without repeating one horribly flawed, incorrect assertion about gimp. I've even explained how to find other problems to point out. Though you do have to watch for some packages that have OR dependencies, like lighttpd, which depends on systemd | lsb-base, so it lists as a systemd dependent but doesn't actually require systemd. (as shown with apt-cache show lighttpd | grep Depends)
I wish you and anybody else luck advocating against systemd, I really do. I don't want it to win. Even when I've corrected people, I've tried providing suggestions and other arguments. I just don't think that incorrect, bullshit assertions are the way to go about fighting it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @11:56AM
I don't think his example is "ridiculous, problematic, factually incorrect" or whatever else you want to refer to it as.
If I'm using Debian, and I type "sudo apt-get install gimp" and I also get systemd installed, which basically trashes my system, I don't care if it's an optional dependency, or a recommended dependency, or a "phantom" dependency, or whatever you want to refer to it as. The normal act of installing GIMP should never bring in systemd.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:30PM
If I'm using Debian, and I type "sudo apt-get install gimp" and I also get systemd installed, which basically trashes my system, I don't care if it's an optional dependency, or a recommended dependency, or a "phantom" dependency, or whatever you want to refer to it as. The normal act of installing GIMP should never bring in systemd.
That's the point. It doesn't bring in systemd and it doesn't trash your system. Installing gimp like that just gives you an interface lib for it along with a bunch of other similar libs like the ones for littlecms, exif data, compression, etc. There are no actual dependencies on systemd there, so you'll still be systemd free.
This is still accurate based on the dependencies in the testing repo of Debian as of 24 hours ago. Testing follows unstable closely except during a freeze, so it should be accurate for unstable, too. The people saying otherwise don't know what they're talking about, either repeating what others said or confusing an interface lib with the actual systemd software and making incorrect assumptions.
For contrast, installing network-manager, I believe, does force you to use systemd because of policykit requiring it, so network manager would be an example of the hostile behaviour that gimp is being incorrectly blamed for doing.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @05:45AM
Furthermore, GIMP requires libgegl, and on Debian that has a pulseaudio dependency (another Lennart package many would like to avoid).
I should have addressed this in the previous post, but this statement is even more absurd than the systemd "dependency" claim I rebutted in the other comment. Gimp has a dependency on libgegl, which depends on libsdl, which in turn has a dependency on libpulse0. Again, this isn't requiring pulseaudio be installed, it's just a lib that's available so that, if a program uses the audio part of SDL -- remember, SDL is more than just graphics -- it can use the pulse sound server if it's present.
It does the same thing for ALSA, too: libsdl also has a dependency on libasound2, which is basically the ALSA equivalent of libpulse0. Are you going to imply that gimp is forcing ALSA on everybody, too? It doesn't, it just uses the library so that it can use ALSA for sound if needed, same way it uses libpulse0 to use pulseaudio on systems that use that.
Where do you people come up with this insanity? Even if you don't know how to use apt-rdepends or read packages.debian.org, you should be able to verify that the gimp/pulse dependency claim is false just by trying to remove pulseaudio and seeing that it doesn't attempt to uninstall gimp.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:01PM
Again, this isn't requiring pulseaudio be installed, it's just a lib that's available so that, if a program uses the audio part of SDL -- remember, SDL is more than just graphics -- it can use the pulse sound server if it's present.
How the fuck can you say that isn't a dependency? If A can use B then A depends on B. Now if A can use C instead of B then A may not have a strict dependency on B, but it's still a dependency between A and B nonetheless!
(Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:51PM
Because it isn't forcing installation of pulseaudio itself, and functions without it. I can use gimp and I don't have pulseaudio installed, so how is pulse a dependency? If it were one I'd have broken sound on my desktop instead of functioning alsa sound (I've always had problems with pulse and my around card so I don't use it )
Can use doesn't imply must use, and no part of the dependency chain even tries to install pulse. You're trying to redefine dependency when it has a specific meaning in this context. A library being able to communicate with pulse is not a dependency on pulse in the context of Debian package dependencies.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @09:55PM
Like I said, if the default action of Debian is to treat systemd as a dependency when installing GIMP, then for all intents and purposes it is a dependency. I know it may not be absolutely required. But that doesn't matter in practice. If I go to install GIMP, and systemd also gets pulled it, it's a dependency as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to waste my time fiddling with the package system's config to work around this. I'm using the package system in the first place because it should be saving me time and cutting down my effort! If the packaging system says that systemd is a dependency of GIMP by default, then as far as I'm concerned it is a dependency.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @10:11PM
Like I said, if the default action of Debian is to treat systemd as a dependency when installing GIMP,
It isn't.
if I go to install GIMP, and systemd also gets pulled it
It doesn't.
If the packaging system says that systemd is a dependency of GIMP by default
Again, it doesn't. The people saying otherwise are provably wrong.
Hopefully that's clear enough for you. I thought I had made that clear already, but this time I'm leaving out the technical parts so there is no room for confusion. Refer to other posts if more detail is needed; I've already explained at length what the situation really is like.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:58PM
How does the BSD distributions deal with that?
(Score: 3, Informative) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:53PM
Diehard Gentoo user here. That's only true if you insist on using things that require it, like the newer Gnome etc. Any software that requires it is basically against my religion and I don't use it. Problem solved.
I've been using fluxbox for my desktop for many years. I've found suitable replacements for any Gnome related programs I was using.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by curunir_wolf on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:56PM
There's a pretty interesting discussion on systemd, that started about the "Boycott systemd" website, over on the Gentoo AMD64 mailing list [gmane.org]. There are clearly 2 very divided camps over the issue, and no one is swaying anyone either way.
I am a crackpot
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @11:50PM
Oh, people are getting swayed. They're just getting swayed totally away from Linux, and into the FreeBSD camp. This is especially so for those running Debian. They're already mostly sysadmins, developers, and other experienced Linux and UNIX users. They actually find FreeBSD superior in a lot of ways. One of the most significant is that it likely will never get infected with systemd.
(Score: 2) by cykros on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:12PM
Maybe we can use systemd to rally enough developers together to finally bring GNU Hurd to a usable state? Pretty please? Wouldn't mind seeing Minix get a little more viable as well...
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:24PM
Because GNU Hurd makes dynamic configuration an integral part of the operating system and thus no need ever for systemd?
(Score: 4, Funny) by forsythe on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:38PM
Wouldn't mind seeing Minix get a little more viable as well...
A while back, someone had the same idea. AST wasn't too thrilled with the idea, so apparently the guy started his own project instead.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 12 2014, @03:04PM
It would make more sense just to fork the Linux kernel, if that was what is really necessary. That or switch to a BSD. The really hard part in making HURD a realistic alternative to Linux is the hardware support.
(Score: 3, Informative) by jdccdevel on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:07PM
Sabayon Linux [sabayon.org] is a binary (no compiling from source unless you want to), rolling release distro based on Gentoo.
Gentoo uses openrc [wikipedia.org] for it's init system. It works really well.
I just found out about it the other day, and it's been working really well for me so far. I used Gentoo for almost 10 years, but the compile times finally got to me, and I went to arch. With the systemd debacle, It looks like Sabayon is the cure.
These guys really need to advertise themselves better. Distro's that avoid systemd could really use this time to gain popularity, and developers.
(Score: 3, Informative) by deimtee on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:23PM
If you go to that sabayon link about halfway down it says that release 14.01is shipping with systemd as the default init system.
They say they are going to keep supporting openrc "at least for some time", but you can guess that things will start to depend on other things that depend on systemd.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jdccdevel on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:32PM
I see that now.
I was confused, because the boot-screen looks the same as good-old openrc.
The minimal bootcd is even using systemd.
Thankfully, Gentoo hasn't gone that route. Maybe somewhere, someone else has a binary distro based on Gentoo that hasn't fallen to the evil empire.
This is really making me mad.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:45PM
I think that is the true danger though. Using systemd doesn't make your system not work or anything. It works great. But if you care about the internals then you will certainly have problems with it.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:05AM
Sorry, I can't see how you can say that a system with systemd installed "works great". The mere presence of binary log files is just about as broken as something can get. If binary log files are present, the system is not working fine. The system is badly broken!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tibman on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:54AM
Please don't misunderstand, i was trying to say that if someone never reads their logs or does anything with the internals then systemd "works great". They have no idea : )
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:23PM
10 hours before you posted this disinformation (again), you had a reply to the previous iteration which told you it was nonsense. [soylentnews.org]
Again, the Gentoo derivative that religiously avoids systemd is Funtoo.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by jdccdevel on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:11PM
Sorry about the misinformation. I was mistaken. I will do better with my fact checking in the future.
Since the bootup process looked just like it did with openrc, and it's based on Gentoo (which is still openrc by default from my understanding), I assumed that it wasn't using systemd.
I would like to note however... Since you posted your replies as AC, they didn't show up in my soylentnews "Inbox", and you must have replied after I stopped watching the thread.
(Score: 3, Informative) by cykros on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:02PM
Slackware hasn't had gnome included for years, and is very much free of systemd. Gentoo is systemd-free as well, and you can quite reasonably install it without gnome as well.
Sadly, when it comes to big general purpose distros anyway, these are essentially the two options left, unless you want to modify Debian or Arch to use sysvinit, and hope you don't get to a point where that isn't possible any longer.
Frankly though, I'd say this is an opportunity. While Slackware is a system people are often hesitant to learn in the first place (frankly, more out of common misconceptions than anything being all that difficult...there are options for dependency resolution, automatic security updating, and most anything you'd really hope for), it's rare to hear someone ragequit from Slackware to pick up another distribution (of Linux, anyway....going to *BSD from Slack isn't the least common thing). Organized documentation [slackware.com] is SUCH a breath of fresh air, especially in the era of ephemeral and overly specific forum based "documentation". Biggest downside? ##Slackware on Freenode ends up being pretty dull, because nobody ends up needing much support once they've been shown where the docs are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @08:04AM
Why? I bet you have not actually used it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:54PM
Yes, there is, and that thing is called 'being installed on my computer.'
Perfectly happy with Slackware, which has a very long and noble tradition of saying no to this sort of crap (just look at how long we've been shipping without GNOME rather than compromise the system with PAM.) And if it does, somehow, manage to worm itself into Slack, there are other options.
*nix will not die, however much Poettering and his cult would like to kill it.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by E_NOENT on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:11PM
Mod this post up.
Although I've tried at least a half-dozen distros over the last few years, I always come back to Slackware. My work machines, home machines, even the family machines--slack.
Give me slack or KILL ME!
I'm not in the business... I *am* the business.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:33PM
True but it looks like we're all migrating to FBSD if we want to or not.
(Score: 2) by E_NOENT on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:04PM
I've been trying it, just in console-only mode.
Looks like Soylent doesn't work with links or w3m (can't login, which is a pity).
I'll be sure to complain to The Management.
I'm not in the business... I *am* the business.
(Score: 2) by forsythe on Thursday October 09 2014, @05:31AM
Why? Sure, more attention paid to FreeBSD would be a good thing, but Slack/Gentoo/LFS/JohnDoe's hobbyist distro still work just fine. It's not as if Red Hat and Debian are the only Linux-based operating systems on the planet.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @10:12AM
Yeah sure but Debian is upstream to about 50% of all distros so this is pretty fucking major.
(Score: 1) by schad on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:37PM
No, but... Run a non-Linux OS for a few months. Then come back and tell me if you still think it's not a big deal that RH/Debian are effectively going away.
Life with a BSD has always kind of sucked. It's got nothing to do with the OS or kernel themselves, which are perfectly fine, and at least some people (including me) like them better than GNU and Linux. The problem becomes apparent when you venture outside of the "core" OS into third-party software. Nobody wants to deal with the BSDs. At best, you get indifference: "I don't care, but if you want to do all the heavy lifting, I'll accept your patches." But all too often you get resistance: "The BSDs are irrelevant, and I refuse to accept patches." And sometimes even active opposition: "Yes, I changed the code to make the BSD port not work, because BSD is a waste of time and nobody should be wasting time on it." It's why, no matter how hard I try to stay away, I always come crawling back to Linux. Usually RHEL, too (although lately people have been focusing more on Ubuntu, so even RHEL isn't free from the worry about third-party support any more).
The "second-class" distros -- actually, they're more like third-class -- have always suffered from a certain amount of this too. But nowhere near as badly as the BSDs (or Solaris, which I also like better than Linux -- or did, before Oracle closed it up again). Well, get ready to enjoy the full experience, because now that you've shut out systemd you're going to join the BSDs in the basement.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by cykros on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:08PM
If it manages to work its way into Slackware, it means Pat is suffering from severe dementia (or has decided to join the fake mustache and goofy glasses crowd), and we should all donate to his medical fund. Slackware is a fantastic example of how sometimes, in limited scope situations, dictatorships are not only tolerable, but absolutely desirable.
Frankly, I think systemd may be the best thing to ever happen to Slackware...we may finally start seeing more fleshed out software options over on Slackbuilds [slackbuilds.org] and other third party repos and save some time throwing together our own personal slackbuild scripts (don't be scared, it's mostly copying and pasting with a template...but time saving is nearly always a Good Thing(TM).)
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Lagg on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:43PM
I know that the reflex right now is to say it sucks because it's part of systemd. But consider a few things.
Yes that line count will grow especially since this is its very first commit but it'll take some serious trying to get it as crufty as the kernel VT code and as it is it just looks cleaner overall, though I still don't care for systemd's usage of title casing. Anyway I don't really care about the project itself at this point. It just disgusts me that communities are devolving into ignorance like this. Even when systemd is following what people think is the traditional unix philosophy this stuff happens.
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:49PM
Substituting the CONFIG_VT code for a userspace component is fine, making that component depend on systemd is not.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:43AM
Substituting the CONFIG_VT code for a userspace component is fine, making that component depend on systemd is not.
It's a shame your comment isn't modded higher, because you nailed it. A userspace console isn't a bad idea, but it should be done in an init-agnostic way. Once it starts depending on anything other than the most basic parts of a Linux system, the console alternative becomes useless, maybe even a liability.
Next thing you know, the systemd-console will start up a hidden gnome session to start a screen reader and some other parts and anybody that complains will get shot down by Pottering claiming that you "hate handicapped people" just like when someone criticised gdm in a presentation.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by KiloByte on Thursday October 09 2014, @05:23AM
No, console is needed to repair a system when everything else fails. It might fail when booting, it might even fail to load the initrd. The console is simply too important in early stages to allow moving it to userspace.
Ceterum censeo systemd esse delendam.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:03PM
I can't believe how many people are totally oblivious to what you've pointed out.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:17PM
VNC console, anyone? I do a lot of virtualization stuff, this is not too far from vmware. Still need a serial console and maybe "something" during boot. And the frame buffer stuff needed to kick X into gear. Its a strange, possibly insane daydream. Note I'm not talking about some kind of strange XDM to VNC gateway, or using a VNC server as a X server which is COTS. A special server that can be connected to using VNC that does nothing but provide a text mode VNC session visually identical to console mode as we currently know and love it. Maybe not even a graphical frame buffer.
As a software idea, a black box where one side looks like a serial port FIFO device so you can connect to it using emulators or consoles or gettys or whatever. The other side of the black box is connected to via vnc or rdesktop or ... And in the middle is the worlds most perfect VT102 emulation or perhaps a perfect 3270 or 5250 for retrocomputing. There is nothing like this out there that I know of. There are things that are close, but not there. Something like x3270 but it speaks VNC instead of X. Or like minicom kinda sorta but it speaks VNC instead of talking to ncurses.
Another "clearly VLM has been drinking heavily again" console idea of mine was bluetooth console. I actually experimented with this one. Low power bluetooth so you have to be kinda close. I was almost but not completely unsuccessful a couple years back running a serial console and plug in bt to serial gateway hardware (usually used for automation and stuff) and also tried BT USB dongle and make its RFTTY0 or whatever its called get a getty serial console just like you can give TTYusb0 a serial console. Things never quite worked out and I never resolved if the problem was my BT terminal on my phone or what all (maybe RF interference, I donno). The BT terminal program was a POS that ncurses didn't really know what to think about, it was not exactly a top of the line VT102 emu.
So there's room for innovation in the land of consoles beyond joining the dark lord, he who must not be named, in his embrace extend extinguish-full-ness.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:33PM
If you grab the graphical output of VNC and do some optical character recognition (OCR), you might actually get the function you are looking for.
(I think some efficient X11 protocol would likely beat both VNC and RDP)
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:34PM
Those who do not remember ASCII are doomed to reinvent it, poorly.
;)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:21PM
If the output is the virtual graphics subsystem and it only connects via VNC or similar. Then you are stuck with ASCII as graphics and thus need a conversion. It sucks but thats the nature of bad design.. ;)
(Score: 1) by albert on Thursday October 09 2014, @04:03AM
The console won't die from some lame userspace issue. You still get the magic SysRq key operations, even if your root directory has gotten corrupted and /lib is nowhere to be found.
What we are missing is the ability to have getty and login in the kernel. (either an optional unsecured console, or select users having login info cached in the kernel) This would allow a greater variety of emergency recovery operations on severely damaged systems.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by TrumpetPower! on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:48PM
Yes, there is: ship with OpenBSD....
Cheers,
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:01PM
We need a moderation of "good news" (only half way kidding)
(Score: 2) by halcyon1234 on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:51PM
Okay, I've got an idea on how to raise money for SN. I'm going to start a "systemd rant" pool. For $5, you can make a guess at the "systemd rant:useful comments" radio on any given story. Closest without going over wins 50%. The rest, minus paypal fees, goes to SN's fundraiser pool. Ratio will be calculated exactly one week after story goes live. Anyone being a shithead to game the system gets DQ'd.
Since this story is actually about systemd, I'll spoil the results and tell you than the ratio of rant:useful will cause a div by zero error.
Original Submission [thedailywtf.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @06:56PM
It is good to know that SN still has so many useful comments vs rants! ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:03PM
Why guess when you could write a systemd daemon to calculate it for you? Bonus if its non-optional like journald or logind and extra points still if you can stuff an smtp daemon and database server in there while making the qr code lib a hard depend.
Which is the perfect illustration of why we don't want ever-increasing amounts of crap in what is rapidly becoming a mandatory init system!
(Score: 4, Funny) by LaminatorX on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:09PM
We thought about trying that, but the systemd comments were all tied up in a binary log file. ;)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:14PM
...And it was corrupted.
(Score: 4, Funny) by GlennC on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:48PM
I don't know....run emacs? :)
Sorry folks...the world is bigger and more varied than you want it to be. Deal with it.
(Score: 1) by ticho on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:53PM
I don't know... after news like this, I expect an announce of systemd-emacs is around the corner.
(Score: 2) by MrGuy on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:00PM
Of course not! Systemd will run vim.
(Score: 1) by zzw30 on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:23PM
No, but emacs can run systemd...
(Score: 3, Informative) by kaszz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:38PM
So far it seems the following distributions are designed to work without systemd:
* Slackware
* Gentoo
(and FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD)
What is the last version of the other distributions that was systemd free?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:00PM
Gentoo and Slackware are not militantly against systemd.
(They don't use it by default but still have it in their repos.)
Same for CRUX.
Funtoo, LSD (Less System D) -are- 100 percent against systemd.
There's also the Linux From Scratch approach.
We've covered this ground before. [soylentnews.org]
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by linuxrocks123 on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:15PM
Slackware most certainly does NOT include SystemD in its repos: http://packages.slackverse.org/ [slackverse.org]
It's likely it will someday, or there will be a third-party addon to do it, because Slackware's philosophy is "It's your system!", meaning the distro won't stand in your way if you want to do something others might consider stupid, but as of now SystemD is not in the official repo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @11:33PM
Alpine Linux doesn't either. It uses the MUSL libc written by the author of ewontfix.com. I'm going to guess it'll never use systemd either.
(Score: 2, Informative) by novak on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:18AM
Also worth pointing out that Crux linux does not have systemd either installed or even in the repos.
novak
(Score: 2) by mtrycz on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:55PM
I, for one, am all against the whole crap, and I know the community skews this way too,
but c'mon! this sub just doesn't cut it.
In capitalist America, ads view YOU!
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday October 08 2014, @09:30PM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @10:41PM
Fuck beta, fuck systemd!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @11:54PM
MOD THE PARENT UP!
(Score: 1) by novak on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:32AM
Lennart Poettering meant to name his unholy terror Substance D, but instead accidently misspelled it as systemd.
novak
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @12:37PM
System(ChokeOnIt)
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @04:19AM
Anybody know how this would affect the serial console during booting of the kernel? It would still be available as long as the code is in the kernel right? Is this going to disappear now?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @11:32AM
Proposal for a debian fork: http://youtu.be/N18rNxe3Z-o [youtu.be]
(Score: 2) by CoolHand on Thursday October 09 2014, @01:42PM
I would call that more of a rant than a proposal. If anyone actually comes out with a serious proposal and plan, I'd be very interested.
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job-Douglas Adams
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 09 2014, @01:37PM
I'm interested in some feedback on this Epoch Init System [universe2.us] .
Have any of you guys tried it out? Are any Linux devs looking at it as a possible future inclusion? Is it good/bad/indifferent? I can't find any discussions or analysis of it.
(Score: 2) by CoolHand on Thursday October 09 2014, @06:53PM
Looks good to me...
...guess you just need to learn some political shenanigans to get it included into some distributions...
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job-Douglas Adams