from the can't-we-just-use-Esperanto? dept.
Arielle Schlesinger, from HASTAC, is working on her thesis: Feminism and Programming Languages
a feminist programming language is to be built around a non-normative paradigm that represents alternative ways of abstracting. The intent is to encourage and allow new ways of thinking about problems such that we can code using a feminist ideology. ... I realized that object oriented programmed reifies normative subject object theory. This led me to wonder what a feminist programming language would look like, one that might allow you to create entanglements."
Are there any insights to be gained here? Or, is this yet another social theorist questionably applying critical theory to the sciences?
For those who RTFA, be sure to read the comment on the article by Juliet Rosenthal. She brings up the obvious questions that leap to the mind of any computer scientist, and formulates them well without being needlessly confrontational.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @04:07AM
"feminist ideology" ... words of war. militant feminism is stoopid, the genders are meant to complement one another, not bicker. this lady's got a few bits loose claiming that now programming languages are 'male'.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday October 23 2014, @08:45AM
bits -> binary logic -> male logic -> oppression
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by velex on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:54PM
This goes back to the transphobia inherent in movements like feminism and the MRA.
Maybe use a float instead of a bool?
Oh shi—! SOYLENT FLOATS ARE BITS!
(Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:08PM
This absurd extremity of position is an externalized manifestation of Borderline Personality Disorder.
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:12PM
a few bits loose
bits -> binary logic -> male logic -> oppression
So, obviously, a feminist programming language would need a ternary architecture.
Binary digIT:bit::Ternary digIT:tit
tits -> ternary logic -> female logic -> empowerment
By unfortunate consequence, all of the words in the Feminist ternary data will be tryte [wikipedia.org].
inb4 accusations of misogyny - yes, this joke is silly and sexist; so is the suggestion that object-oriented programming is based on inherently Masculine thought processes and therefore not egalitarian. Furthermore, from the author's own notes: [hastac.org]
There exist logics that handle contradiction as part of the system, namely paraconsistent logic. I think this type of logic represents the feminist idea that something can be and not be without being a contradiction, that is a system where the following statement is not explosive: (p && ¬p) == 1.
If she's going to reject the foundation of Boolean logic, she'll need ternary logic at a minimum (states of True, False, (True and False)). Perhaps my joke won't fall far from the truth of her work.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Friday October 24 2014, @09:35PM
I've seen this argument before and it is considered derogatory to both sides [wikipedia.org]:-
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by JNCF on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:03PM
What we really need is more Marxist programming languages. Down with classes! Programmers of the world unite; YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT YOUR CHAINS!!!
...well, that and some really useful logical tools that have nothing to do with the social connotations of the word "class," but fuck it.
(Score: 1) by Mike on Friday October 24 2014, @04:28PM
...this lady's got a few bits loose claiming that now programming languages are 'male'."
This. To paraphrase someone (no idea who):
Programming languages hate to be anthropomorphised.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by gman003 on Thursday October 23 2014, @04:38AM
I think the worst part is the echo-chamber circle-jerk (circle-schlick?) most of the comments are. Since Juliet basically said everything worth saying about the actual proposed "language", I think I'll go on a rant about this instead for a bit.
<rant>
There's a subculture now, that mostly identifies themselves as "social justice warriors". It's not universal (there are people in the group I'm bitching about that don't call themselves that, and there are some who do call themselves that that aren't really what I'm about to bitch about), but I'll go ahead and use that label.
On the face of it, they're good people. They fight for various social causes - gender equality, racial equality, generally good causes. There's some I can disagree with - vegetarianism as a moral imperative is wrong. But most are ones I can agree with, in principle. But here's where it goes wrong:
They don't seem to really care about the cause(s) themselves, more that they're fighting for them. More than that, that they're *seen* to be fighting for them, because that brings accolades and a false feeling of accomplishment. So they either go way too far (eg. the "feminists" who act more like "female supremacists"), or start inventing new causes to fight for (eg. otherkin). And then, amongst themselves, because the goal is to fight for *something* rather than any actual goal, there's nobody who will tell them negative things. Because not being supportive would be something the (take your pick: government, establishment, patriarchy, illuminati) would do.
Which is how we get bullshit like this - someone vaguely saying "hey, let's make a feminist programming language". No saying how that's done. Not even saying what's wrong with existing ones, how they're un-feminist. Just a bunch of hot air rising over a steaming pile of bullshit buzzwords that she clearly doesn't even know how to use properly.
<subrant>
While we're on the subject of terminology, I don't even like the term "feminist", because the goal of *sane* feminists is really "gender equality". True, the ways women have it worse off than men is far greater in number than the ways men are disadvantaged, and it used to be far worse, so I can understand the usage of the term. I just don't really like it.
</subrant>
</rant>
Okay, now that that's out of my system, let me end with this:
If you want to prove me wrong, Arielle, show us the following:
1) How existing languages are discriminatory
2) How your language proposes to fix it
And preferably
3) Example code in your new programming language
I'm a programmer - I care, first and foremost, about results. I don't care if it's a programming language that promotes National Socialism, if it works better than what I've got, I'll use it until something better comes along. You have so far failed to even identify the problem, let alone propose a solution. I am completely unable to come up with a single way existing languages are in any way gender-biased - that isn't a guarantee that there isn't a way, it just means you're going to have to spell it out for everyone.
(Score: 1) by silverly on Thursday October 23 2014, @04:58AM
I dont consider your post to be a troll. I dont get it at all either.
Its not the programming language that is the problem. Its everyone else that is using it.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:07AM
I half-suspect "Arielle" is an ELIZA program of some kind, because it sounds like someone ran Tumblr through a Markov chain generator.
I'm alone in my office, and laughed out loud twice at that. I'm quoting that the next chance I get.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:26AM
Wait, so you say my project of a programming language based on the Permian-Triassic Extinction is doomed?
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Thursday October 23 2014, @09:02AM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @09:53AM
Where's the hierarchy in BASIC (I mean the original one, with line numbers, not the vaguely BASIC-like modern languages being BASIC only in name and a few keywords)?
You certainly can't claim BASIC was not successful.
(Score: 2) by romlok on Thursday October 23 2014, @10:07AM
I'm not sure how "most" programming languages are hierarchical? I can only see that description being applicable to class/inheritance-based, object-oriented, languages.
Is there something inherently hierarchical about C, or a purely functional language?
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday October 23 2014, @10:49AM
GP's argument was that a class hierarchy maps nicely to a directory hierarchy and both have a slight bias towards masculine thinking even when the problem-space doesn't involve hierarchy. Therefore, a random man will be slightly more likely to solve problems with software than a random woman.
an example would be:-
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by velex on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:58PM
Haskell?
I suppose they could try ASM if #include-ing <sys/types.h> doesn't make sense.
Don't even get me started on the hierarchies and pecking orders that develop in female-dominated environments&hellp;.
(Score: 2) by DECbot on Thursday October 23 2014, @03:57PM
So, to move away from a directory/hierarchy file system, we replace the file system with something like a relation database and tag all the files. Then when you're looking to run ssh, you query:
"SELECT file FROM FILES INNERJOIN (SELECT tagname,tag_id FROM TAGS INNER JOIN Tag_Files ON TAGS.tag_id=Tag_Files.tag_id) ON TAG.tag_id = FILE.tag_id WHERE filename="ssh" AND tagname="executable" "
and when you wish to get the ssh documentation you would query
"SELECT file FROM FILES INNERJOIN (SELECT tagname,tag_id FROM TAGS INNER JOIN Tag_Files ON TAGS.tag_id=Tag_Files.tag_id) ON TAG.tag_id = FILE.tag_id WHERE filename="ssh" AND tagname="documentation" "
Of course, you'd need to view that with man, or some other file view so, you command could look something like this:
"SELECT file FROM FILES INNERJOIN (SELECT tagname,tag_id FROM TAGS INNER JOIN Tag_Files ON TAGS.tag_id=Tag_Files.tag_id) ON TAG.tag_id = FILE.tag_id WHERE filename="man" AND tagname="executable" " "SELECT file FROM FILES INNERJOIN (SELECT tagname,tag_id FROM TAGS INNER JOIN Tag_Files ON TAGS.tag_id=Tag_Files.tag_id) ON TAG.tag_id = FILE.tag_id WHERE filename="ssh" AND tagname="documentation" "
I could see how this could work. Let's see, you want to install a driver for an Intel network card...
"SELECT file FROM FILES INNERJOIN (SELECT tagname,tag_id FROM TAGS INNER JOIN Tag_Files ON TAGS.tag_id=Tag_Files.tag_id) ON TAG.tag_id = FILE.tag_id WHERE filename="modprobe" AND tagname="executable" " "SELECT file FROM FILES INNERJOIN (SELECT tagname,tag_id FROM TAGS INNER JOIN Tag_Files ON TAGS.tag_id=Tag_Files.tag_id) ON TAG.tag_id = FILE.tag_id WHERE tagname="Intel" AND tagname="NIC" AND tagname="driver" AND tagname="$chipset_number" AND tagname="$kernal_revision" "
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 3, Funny) by M. Baranczak on Thursday October 23 2014, @04:54PM
SELECT file FROM FILES INNERJOIN (SELECT tagname,tag_id FROM TAGS INNER JOIN Tag_Files ON TAGS.tag_id=Tag_Files.tag_id) ON TAG.tag_id = FILE.tag_id WHERE filename="ssh" AND tagname="executable"
This no more complicated than the old "hierarchical" way of doing it. Pseudocode:
for (dir in PATH) {
for (file in dir) {
if (file.name == "ssh" and file.executable) {
return exec(file)
}
}
}
Of course, you'd need to view that with man
And we're right back where we started.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Friday October 24 2014, @09:29PM
You've invented Multics in SQL. That's horrendous.
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by pe1rxq on Thursday October 23 2014, @10:59AM
Nested function calls?
They are even refered to as trees when discussin call graphs.
i.e. main() is the top of the hierarchy.
(Score: 2) by M. Baranczak on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:04PM
I'm not sure how "most" programming languages are hierarchical?
Class inheritance is one example of a hierarchy.
Another, more basic, example is nested code blocks; most code gets broken down into ever-smaller "scopes", giving it a tree-like structure. (Unless it's just a straight-line program with no branches whatsoever. Some people do code like that, since it makes it easier to construct a formal proof that the program works correctly. I've never had to do that, and I hope I never will.)
I'm curious to see what a non-hierarchical language would look like. I'm not optimistic about this freak coming up with anything useful, but it's not impossible.
(Score: 2) by M. Baranczak on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:50PM
What the hell kind of timezone is Soylent News set to? I posted the above around 10 AM, US Eastern Time, but it says "02:04". That's not any US zone, and it's not UTC either. I think it's somewhere in the middle of the Pacific?
(Score: 2) by carguy on Thursday October 23 2014, @03:41PM
What the hell kind of timezone is Soylent News set to? I posted the above around 10 AM, US Eastern Time, but it says "02:04". That's not any US zone, and it's not UTC either. I think it's somewhere in the middle of the Pacific?
I'm on Eastern US time and the post in question shows this author line,
by M. Baranczak (1673) Subscriber Badge Neutral on Thursday October 23, @10:04AM (#109161)
(Score: 3, Funny) by M. Baranczak on Thursday October 23 2014, @03:59PM
Yeah, I just found the time zone in the user preferences. It's under "homepage" for some reason. And for some reason, it defaults to "-1200 International Date Line West" (I sure as hell didn't set it like that).
This is probably the closest I'll come to gaining any valuable knowledge from this thread.
(Score: 2) by JeanCroix on Thursday October 23 2014, @04:42PM
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:40PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by jimshatt on Thursday October 23 2014, @10:59AM
(Score: 3, Funny) by metamonkey on Thursday October 23 2014, @03:12PM
Well, yes. I supposed instead of hierarchical organization with top-down inheritance (representative of the patriarchy) we could employ message passing-based OOP. See, now we're LISTENing and SENDing, giving and sharing data in a non-hierarchical way that respects the privacy of internal variables.
Very woman-friendly, but you misogynist pigs couldn't understand it.
Okay 3, 2, 1, let's jam.
(Score: 2) by TK on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:13PM
Does ladder logic count? Every rung is active at the same time. Or are "permissions" seen as making certain rungs subordinate to other rungs?
As for "can think in terms of hierarchies", I'm not so sure there's a bias in the general population. Is this a measurable thing? I can't think of anyone who can't conceptualize basic government or corporate management structures as a hierarchy.
The fleas have smaller fleas, upon their backs to bite them, and those fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum
(Score: 2) by JNCF on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:32PM
I'd be really interested in seeing this research, but If you're speaking from memory and have no clue where to find the source I totally understand. I'm also not sure if you meant to imply that the gender gap is also backed by research, or if that part of your comment was speculation.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:42PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by JNCF on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:56PM
Cool. A 40:60 split seems totally explainable by cultural factors.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:17AM
The problem I have with SJWs isn't the "warriors" part, it's the "social justice" part. Social justice is what something gets called when you want to support it but it too clearly directly conflicts with actual objective justice. Example, treating a formerly oppressed class with favoritism rather than with equality. It is in no way actual justice but you can pin social justice on it easy as you please and it's magically okay to crusade for.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:23PM
I like how then many times they take it one step further. Instead of 'I want to be on the same level as you' it becomes 'I want to drag you down to the same level as me or lower and then put myself where you were'. That is when I have a problem. Instead of creating we destroy and end up basically where we are. These people have a slick message that sounds good. But if you lift the covers it is rotten to the core filled with hate and jealousy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:26PM
Formally oppressed classes are often still discriminated against, so they aren't treated equally. A simple example of this is when identical resumes are sent with "black-sounding" or "female-sounding" names instead of "white male-sounding" names and there is a difference in which are favored.
Now, feel free to make the point that some of these "corrective measures" go too far because some probably do.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:38PM
Any corrective measures are unequal treatment on the part of the person preforming them and therefore unjust. You are the arbiter of whether your actions are just or not, not of dealing out justice.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:27PM
I don't know about unjust, but yes the corrective measures are unequal as they are supposed to be directed to a class that is treated with discrimination.
What about the unequal treatment of resumes with "black or female-sounding" names? That is a societal problem. Is it to be ignored?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 23 2014, @03:08PM
Outside controlling your own actions or punishing the explicitly illegal actions of individuals, yes, it absolutely is. You cannot correct discrimination with more discrimination, you only increase the hate when you try.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @04:20PM
Your perspective is consistent so that is a fair perspective to have. Nobody should hold that against you, but this is an emotional topic so some will anyway. Enough people disagree (at least publicly) with you and believe measures should be taken to correct that discrimination. In recent times, it seems that the law is trending toward your view as explicit discrimination decreases. Just keep in mind that some people are also principled, as you are, and believe that some action needs to be taken against this discrimination instead of tolerated.
Discrimination doesn't self-correct very quickly as it is subject to confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:43PM
And I'm okay with that. Catch someone discriminating on illegal grounds for discrimination, toss em in the pokey. I'll help throw the key away. I just don't want to be discriminated against either. They can't teach that discrimination is wrong and then discriminate against me. It doesn't suck any less when I'm discriminated against than it does when anyone else is.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:58PM
Okay, I lied. I also have a problem with the xenophobic intolerance of intellectual diversity SJWs exhibit. Such as downmodding a post simply because they disagree with it.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:21PM
(Score: 1) by GeminiDomino on Thursday October 23 2014, @12:00PM
This should be modded much higher, if just for this one part. (The rest of the post was quite good, too, though).
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 5, Insightful) by metamonkey on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:52PM
That is my complaint about online SJWs. They take a stand for social justice in the easiest way possible: a self-righteous tweet or blog post. Their primary goal is not actual social justice. It's shaming somebody else (the bigger the better. Major corporations are a great target) to puff themselves up. They're just looking for something to be offended by.
The real fighters for social justice are on the ground. They're in the food banks, they're working with prisoners, they're running shelters, they're staging protests. But that would be messy and take more time than tweeting and how would everybody know how courageous they are for taking a stand since the homeless don't want to be in their selfies?
I'm reminded of Matthew 6:2-3.
Online SJWs are worse than the Pharisees. At least the Pharisees were actually giving alms, even if they did so loudly for their own aggrandizement. Online SJWs want all the adoration without the alms. All smoke and no fire.
(alms for the poor can be replaced with any use of time, talent or treasure for the betterment of others, particularly the disadvantaged)
Okay 3, 2, 1, let's jam.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:55PM
When we were going through the gamergate nonsense a couple weeks back I was called a SJW for suggesting that calling Anita Sarkeesian a "cunt" was a bit over the top. I always post as AC. You have no idea who I am or where I am posting from. How exactly is this self-aggrandizing?
(Score: 2) by metamonkey on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:46PM
Because you're not a SJW? Sarkeesian is a SJW.
Okay 3, 2, 1, let's jam.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:40PM
Actually the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is strongly relevant to computer programming languages and is one reason, e.g., that graphics programming is often done in an Object-Oriented programming language rather than, say, assembler.
This does not mean I understand what it means in this context, merely that things that are easier to do in a language will tend to be the things done in that language.
If I understand at all what the original post was proposing, then I don't understand why Lisp or Forth wouldn't be good starting points. But I'm not at all sure I do understand. Forth, especially, seems to be appropriate, but this is largely because it's less developed. The original Lisps would probably have been an equally good starting point. (Note that I'm not even considering Scheme or Common Lisp.)
If she means something else, I'd be tempted to suggest Scratch, but that *is* wedded to an Object Oriented orientation, which she doesn't seem to approve of.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:09AM
The post in the TFA was from a year ago and like many, I had the sort of language vertigo you get from reading, as an example, English language handouts that many Japanese tourist sites have for visitors: the words are totally in English, nicely typeset and spellchecked thoroughly, but strung together in such a way that they convey nothing but pure confusion.
Anyway, here is her most recent blog post: Feminist Code: Critical Code Studies Working Group 2014
http://www.hastac.org/blogs/ari-schlesinger/2014/07/14/feminist-code-critical-code-studies-working-group-2014 [hastac.org]
There seemed to be a lot of blahblahblah so I sort of only skimmed it, but it appears that after much discussion, this is where things are at:
The first two seem sort of pointless -- more a function of who wants a piece of software and what they want it to do. A bank wants it help with math, a musician with music, a feminist with legal/social issues. That's basicly an "OK, and sooo....?" statement as far as I can see. The third one appears no closer to reality than it was a year ago, although honestly, I do want my airbag to deploy only under certain conditions, (crash==true) for example, but not (crash==true && !crash==true) as she suggested a feminist programming language could allow. But maybe I'm being just too literal? Mostly, I just don't get it. I think I'll go back to reading my Japanese tourist handouts.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Magic Oddball on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:55AM
I agree -- though you put it far better (and with far more technical detail) than I could. It makes absolutely no sense to me to describe a language intended for interacting with computers as "feminist" any more than it would to say that it's "Cajun" or "chartreuse."
Her kind of bizarre logic is one of the reasons that I usually specify that I'm a "first-wave" or "oldschool" feminist: I don't want to be misidentified as a third-wave or modern feminist. As far as I'm concerned, people like her are giving feminism a bad name by dragging it far from its original goal of having people viewed & treated as individuals, rather than as representatives of their sex/gender. (That's the best way to accurately sum it up I can think of off-hand, at least.) If anything, labeling computer languages based on gender is anti-feminist, since it lumps them into camps based on stereotypes about how men/women function mentally, rather than grouping them based on individual traits like syntax.
(Score: 3, Funny) by FatPhil on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:20PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:24PM
Terminator characters for different themed programming languages.
Offensive: !
Punk: |m|
Slingblade: mhm
Middleschool: (o)(o)
(Score: 3, Funny) by FatPhil on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:47PM
(o)(o) and (.)(.) are operators too, as you guessed.
The numbers are 8=D, 8==D, 8===D, 8====D, ...
The thing which will get me exciled from the community is the method of exiting a program. That I'm giving no sneak previews for.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 4, Funny) by shortscreen on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:12AM
Surely, creating entanglements would be a feature in a programming language designed by quantum physicists?
It seems to me that most programming languages were created by mathematicians, which is why they have terrible syntax. Whereas if programming languages had been created by chemists, they would be a mess of confusing terminology. (molarity and molality? absorbtion and adsorption? chemists clearly hate non-native speakers of English!)
In a programming language designed by biologists the variable names would be Latin.
NASCAR drivers would only allow shifting bits to the left in their language.
The language designed by MBAs would be like COBOL but with more synergy, aligned priorities, kaizen, and thinking outside the box.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @08:21AM
>>The language designed by MBAs would be like COBOL but with more synergy, aligned priorities,
>> kaizen, and thinking outside the box.
and would never work.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by deimios on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:28AM
Do not get distracted by the buzzwords, the ideas in TFA and especially in the comments are worth exploring. I am not a CS expert but as far as I gathered she is researching the possibility of a logic based programming language using paraconsistent logic, as the author describes it: a system where the following statement is not explosive: (p && ¬p) == 1
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Kell on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:38AM
I feel you are correct - paralogical processing constructs seem like they might be useful for something. The problem, danger and error here is using a loaded term like "feminist" to describe a technical concept. Feminism has gotten a bad name for itself in some quarters (rightly or wrongly), and for most people not immersed in literary theory and philosophy of thought using it as a descriptor makes about as much sense as describing your latest gas turbine as being built on "confederate" principals. Either she has an idea and has expressed it in an unfortunate way, or it's a subtle and brilliant troll.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by aristarchus on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:36AM
Come on! The suggestion is right there in the FA.
She brings up the obvious questions that leap to the mind of any computer scientist, and formulates them well without being needlessly confrontational.
See that? "Non-confrontational". Try it. One thing that feminism has taught me is that you have to listen. Men are programmed (oh! a Pun!) to take assertions as an attack, and so we must immediately counter-attack. Often this manifests as interrupting the speaker, and this happens all the more frequently when the interruptor is male and the interruptee is female. The real problem is that men do this without even being aware that they are doing it. And of course then, they see "Feminism" as "retarded" and a threat, because they have no clue what is actually going on. And then they wonder, "why haven't we won? We refuted every point! Why are they still angry?"
So as for the comment, I don't code, so there. But I do know that programming is a command language. "Make me a sandwich." "Sudo make me a sandwich" (XKCD ref, can't look it up right now.) As such it is imperial, and rife, just rife with presuppositions about power and reality. One of the more interesting areas of philosophy at present is the ontology of objects in object oriented programming. So yes, the thesis-writing might have something to say, if you could bring yourself to shut up and just listen. I will be listening for your reply. Think about it before-hand, you gamergate misogynist trolls! (oh, crap, epic fail!)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:42AM
lol
(Score: 3, Insightful) by dyingtolive on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:43AM
I started a well thought out response, but I'm drunk and accidentally closed the page with the response half written up. I don't feel up to retyping it though, so I'm sorry. I can't tell which parts of your post are supposed to be serious and which aren't. WikiStorming, per her own links, doesn't look like it's doing anything to help computer science or anything technical. It looks like it's pushing an agenda though. No where else have I seen anything (per her own links) that shows what she's actually DONE as far as anything computer science related or otherwise technical.
"Performativity" as it would translate into programming seems to sound like what "regular people" call OOP. Maybe I'm not smart enough to get it, but it sounds like she's reinventing the wheel while insisting she isn't. At the same time, the brief bit of text we get from her linked page seems to be indistinguishable from management-speak, and I think labeling anything pertaining to math as being "feminist" or really even any -ism at all is poisonously divisive for the sake of being poisonously divisive. She does seem to delve into wanting to incorporate a lot of "feminist ideals" into a programming language without actually explaining what those are or how they would benefit us. I'm not dismissing those ideals off-hand; really, I can't without first even knowing what those are.
There's talk in the comments of a matter of style and "elegance". Frankly, and I say this as a programmer myself, I think we overburden ourselves with that. I mean, there's obvious best practices and certainly ways of obfuscating what's actually going on, but at the same time, there's a particular anal-retentiveness that gets in the way of just getting the job done.
I don't want to immediately disagree with her, but at the same time, I genuinely can't figure out what exactly it is that she wants. Again, maybe I'm just not bright enough to get it, but she's not really making it easy.
Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:12AM
Not a bad come back for being drunk! Sorry about the lost original, if it was better than this, it is a loss for all of us.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by lentilla on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:18AM
I don't want to immediately disagree with her, but at the same time, I genuinely can't figure out what exactly it is that she wants.
A younger me; upon encountering utterances that I couldn't make head nor tail of; would assume a failing on my part. I found it very confusing because I'd go looking for the part I'd missed - over and over in my head. Only later it dawned on me that occasionally the actual reason was that the someone was talking nonsense.
Occam's Razor [wikipedia.org] and all, sometimes when you think you are hearing nonsense... you really are hearing nonsense.
So if you "genuinely can't figure out what exactly it is that she wants", don't feel bad about it. It's most likely that the author either doesn't know herself, or that she hasn't explained adequately. Which; in human terms, evaluates to the same thing. I might have the best ideas for flying cars but if I can neither explain to you what they are or how we might obtain them, I haven't really communicated anything worthwhile - have I?
aristarchus mentioned in the parent of this thread:
One thing that feminism has taught me is that you have to listen.
Quite a profound statement and certainly worthy of deep consideration. Unfortunately, whilst individuals (gender being irrelevant) may be equally important, not everything we utter is equally valuable. Suffer fools gently in the beginning and then walk away, but don't be afraid to say "you don't know what you are talking about" if they persist with the foolish commentary. Perhaps the kindest way is to say "I'm sorry but I am having difficultly understanding you"... before walking away again.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:45AM
You sound like a misandrist troll to me.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:49AM
Huh? [wikipedia.org]
---
Try INTERCAL [wikipedia.org]: PLEASE DO make me a sandwich. Also:
Backtracking INTERCAL, a modern variant, also allows variants using MAYBE (possibly combined with PLEASE or DO) as a statement identifier, which introduces a choice-point. Before the identifier, an optional line number (an integer enclosed in parentheses) can be given; after the identifier, a percent chance of the line executing can be given in the format %50, which defaults to 100%.
If this is not womany, I don't know what else is.
---
Oh, come on! You want us regressing cca 1930 [wikipedia.org] to be able to remain speechless in admiration?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:21AM
Wow! A woman who knows type theory? And familiar with the work of Alonzo Church?
But you know that allowing in non-binary truth values in logic is a major pain in the . . . logic!
The question is whether we are describing reality, or creating it. The real danger is to pretend we are describing when we are in fact stipulating. This is what Feminist Critique, among other disciplines, is useful in pointing out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:41AM
Programming is exactly creating. That's the whole point of it. Programming is a creative activity, not a descriptive one.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:34AM
Then you know only a subset of programming languages. You might want to have a look at Prolog. A Prolog program contains not a single command. It only contains statements and questions.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Thursday October 23 2014, @09:11AM
But I do know that programming is a command language
Not necessarily. Imperative programming languages are common, but declarative languages also exist. The only purely imperative language that I know of is Smalltalk, with JavaScript a close second, and mostly the thing that people hate about JavaScript is that it lacks a declarative structure. In something like C++ or Java, for example, the constructs for defining classes are entirely declarative and only the methods are imperative, whereas in JavaScript prototypes are defined in an imperative style (which makes reasoning about JavaScript code horrible).
There's a good argument that having more of the dynamic structure of a program specified in a declarative style would make sense too. For example, it's quite common to construct user interfaces in a declarative style and, with some toolkits (e.g. Cocoa / GNUstep) to also construct the controller (and sometimes model) instances in the same style.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @09:11AM
> But I do know that programming is a command language.
Offcourse it is. We all (man *and* women ) prefer the computer to do what it's told. A programming language where you would only be able to kindly ask (*) the computer to add these two numbers, but you cannot be sure taht it actually feels like it is pretty useless.
(*) I find the notion that only men 'command' quite unfeminist in itself (feminist in the old-true meaning, women's lib and all that). You pretend to care about unequality, but at the same time you keep up the myth male==commanding (implying females should always be poliute and meek)
(Score: 1) by GeminiDomino on Thursday October 23 2014, @12:13PM
Check your privilege, shitlord^H^H^H^H-ugly bag of mostly water!!
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 2) by Nr_9 on Thursday October 23 2014, @09:31AM
Hahaha brilliant!
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:45AM
All in all a brilliant bit of flamebaiting. It really should have been modded funny rather than insightful though. I can only assume today's mods lack reading comprehension or only skimmed the comment before modding.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by velex on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:26PM
But I do know that programming is a command language.… As such it is imperial, and rife, just rife with presuppositions about power and reality.
Xena and Captain Janeway would seek to disagree.
But then again those are fictional women.
because they have no clue what is actually going on
Have you ever been targeted by sexist policies? How many times have you been reduced to the body part between your legs and held accountable for the legal caste of anyone assigned the male gender at birth?
I'll tell you what. Sexism sickens me.
So yes, the thesis-writing might have something to say, if you could bring yourself to shut up and just listen.
I've listened and listened.
I hear that women want gender equality. I hear that women pay women less than men pay women. I hear some women tell me that math is hard, then I hear other women hold me accountable for that attitude. I only hear crickets on addressing either of those troubles outside of assigning blame to all assigned males.
I hear that I'm a rapist who hasn't been caught in the act yet. I hear my desire to use the female restroom to fix my hair instead of greatly confusing men who walk into the men's room while I'm doing that constitutes attempted rape.
I hear that having female body parts and a feminine appearance constitutes metaphysical rape because I don't have cis-privilege.
I hear that I'm accountable for the actions of others in a room who share my legal gender, because demanding to only be accountable for my own individual actions would be unfair to the other individuals being held accountable for the actions of others.
I hear that because I don't date women, I must be sexually frustrated and a misogynist. Further complicit in that sentiment is the idea that I should be measured by my “score” and that dating men doesn't count.
I hear that because I play games and because I was assigned the male gender at birth, I must be a misogynist.
I hear that because I am unable to configure proprietary software in a way the vendor didn't design for, that I'm accountable for the lack of women in programming because I was not assigned the same gender at birth as Ada Lovelace.
I hear that because I was assigned the male gender at birth, it's acceptable for me to be a target of violence, and because that's “just part of being a boy”, I have no right to protest.
I hear that no, it will not work for me to just be a girl so I might escape all this blame.
I hear that attempting to form a club to encourage computer programming is a federal crime for me but not for a womyn-born-womyn.
I believe I am through listening.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday October 23 2014, @03:38PM
The link is http://xkcd.com/149/ [xkcd.com] or http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/149:_Sandwich [explainxkcd.com]
-- hendrik
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 24 2014, @04:58AM
Misogynist trolls!
See that? "Non-confrontational". Try it.
you can't script this kind of idiocy and arrogance.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday October 24 2014, @08:03AM
Yes, you can, you misogynist troll! Read the script and weep. (Try the listening thing a bit to, just in case.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @12:46AM
Generalisations for the win!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:55AM
So she means perl?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:05AM
I just came here to post exactly this. TIMTOWTDI sounds exactly like what she wants.
But wait, Tim is a male name ... ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:57AM
What? It's pronounced Tim to Die. Reading Tim as a generic abstraction of the every-guy, it becomes a powerful feminist motto while maintaining it's utility as a handy mnemonic.
(Score: 2) by Alfred on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:41PM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Nerdanel on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:35AM
Feminism is not the problem here. Postmodernism is. The FA is what happens when someone tries to apply postmodernism to feminism and programming languages at the same time. Postmodernism has been applied to subjects far from its original subject of literary criticism, but you just can't treat every subject in the universe as a "text" written in a cultural context and ignore away the constraints of the objective reality.
I wonder what an anti-racist or anti-ableist programming language would look like...
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:37AM
you just can't treat every subject in the universe as a "text" written in a cultural context and ignore away the constraints of the objective reality.
Evidently you completely misunderstand post-modernism. Read "White Mythology" by Derrida. No, forget it, don't it won't help. Continue on assuming that the constraints of objective reality actually are the constraints of objective reality. Women should not be allowed to vote (objective reality prior to 1921). Humans are incapable of surviving speeds of greater that thirty-five miles per hour! (objective reality prior to circa 1825). Feminism is retarded (objective reality on Soylent News, circa 2104).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @08:08AM
Nonsense. Anything which contains the word "should" is not a claim of fact ("obective reality") but a normative statement.
Note that "Women are not allowed to vote" was a fact back then. But of course it was one of the facts which can be (and ultimately were) changed, just like the fact "I've not yet had lunch today" is a fact that currently is true, but which I plan to change later this day.
That's a better example, because it is indeed a claim about reality (but it actually never was objective reality). We now know for sure that humans are capable of those speeds because humans have gone at those speeds and survived. That is the ultimate test for factuality: Try it. Back then it was believed by many that humans could not do it. But there was absolute zero objective evidence to that believe. Therefore here it was not objective reality that changed, but just knowledge.
I'd like to have your soothsaying capabilities ;-) (OK, I do understand that you just mistyped 2014, just in case you lack the humour). But looking at the post you replied to, I cannot find that claim there. The claim there is: "The article in question is the result of applying postmodernism outside its borders of validity." Which may or may not be true (I clearly lack the knowledge about postmodernism to decide whether that claim even makes sense), but which very clearly is a very different claim from "Feminism is retarded."
And anyway, the claim "feminism is retarded" is not a claim of objective fact, but a value judgement.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Nerdanel on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:13PM
You just demonstrated a point I find particularly stupid about postmodernism: ignorance about what objective reality means / redefining the term "objective reality" to mean its opposite without telling anyone. (I'm not sure which it is.) I didn't know that the postmodernists were incompetent enough at philosophy to mistake "is" for "ought" though. (The other poster here already addressed your points, so I don't think I need to go into more detail.)
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:55PM
And still you fail! There is no try, there is only do. And there is no "objective reality", there is only a socially constructed narrative of power that has been redefined (again, without telling anyone!) as objective reality. Thus the is/ought problem does not apply, for, a priori, there is no "is", we have an "ought" pretending to be a fait accompli. Marx called this re-ification.
Try not to think about it too much, there could be post-modernists under you bed. And future you may have to be send to the camps to learn feminist programming languages!
(and wow, just went the full Reverse-Clinton!)
(Score: 2) by Nerdanel on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:11PM
I would really like to know if postmodernists think that you can propagandize gravity away. I personally think it would be cool if they could propagandize easy and cheap faster-than-light travel into existence and I think that it ought to be done if at all possible. It was only that Einstein guy who wrote some papers and made everyone believe that the speed of light is (ought to be) an absolute limit, right? Really, what's the point of pointing out, say, that all that stuff about the white man's burden was wrong and harmed the colonial people when everything could have been made perfect just by joining the choir and telling everyone that colonialism is awesome and brings happiness, prosperity, and equality to the whole world?
The only sensible explanation is that either the postmodernist have no idea what objective reality is in normal language, or else they are really good at compartmentalizing. Also, even in solipsism the is/ought problem doesn't vanish as long as people are still capable of feeling discontented about something. I really get the impression that the postmodernists don't understand the is/ought problem either. This feels like arguing against a cloud...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:48AM
Well, an anti-discriminatory language would
SCNR
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @10:21AM
Or more generally; comparisons are redundant because all possible values are equal.
(Score: 1) by GeminiDomino on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:39AM
Well, if she'll compromise and accept "comparison operators that do whatever they feel like, based on the interpreter's mood" (that's womany, right?) and error handling that insists that it's the (male) programmer's fault for getting the argument order switched *again*... well, then they can just have PHP.
No, please. Take it.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 2, Informative) by khallow on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:03AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:08AM
Well, a language that allows to create entanglement [wikipedia.org] must obviously be a language for quantum computers ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @09:43PM
Either that, or it will sulk and pout if you don't call in the morning.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:15AM
Wait, so "female logic" is not just a misogynist's stereotype?
(Score: 1) by GeminiDomino on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:47AM
No, it still is.
No one has less respect for individual women than a feminist. They're only interested in aggregate statistics.
"We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of our culture"
(Score: 2) by Geezer on Thursday October 23 2014, @10:35AM
A programming language destined to have a lower adoption rate than Befunge.
(Score: 2) by PizzaRollPlinkett on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:05AM
My brain can't process what I'm reading.
- feminist programming language
- non-normative paradigm
- alternative ways of abstracting
- reifies normative subject object theory
Is this really serious, or is this one of those things people do to show how screwed up the academic system is? It's like an elaborate parody of academia.
(E-mail me if you want a pizza roll!)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:38PM
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by velex on Thursday October 23 2014, @01:24PM
Uhh… wat?
Why are womyn-born-womyn unable to use existing programming languages?
Wait… I know a few counterexamples. Why isn't the work of Lovelace, Hopper, Liskov, etc good enough for feminism? I guess it turns out that womyn-born-womyn are capable of understanding the mathematics of software and advancing the state of the art.
Feminists: I know you value your womb above all else, but please, try to think with the body part between your ears instead. Maybe you're just jealous of all the attention I get from men. Protip: lose 100 lbs and stop being hostile to them and you too might get attention from men. Or maybe you're homosexual? That's cool, too, but don't blame me. Just find a decent girlfriend and stop being sexually frustrated.
This is so old. Newton's Principia is a rape manual, eh? Well, that attitude clearly isn't helping you.
Protip: if you are a womyn-born-womyn reading this, meditate on the raw, dripping privilege you have of being unaware of your privileges: the privilege of holding an entire legal caste accountable for your failures; the privilege of your sexism being seen as legitimate; the privilege of being able to wear your hair however you want; etc.
The more crap like this that crops up, the more gamergate shit, the more womyn-born-womyns' failures find their way to blame for an entire legal caste (anyone assigned the male gender at birth), the more that attitudes that somebody assigned the male gender at birth deserves no individuality, the more I find it hard to resist being a complete sexist myself.
Feminists: in your crusade to create this magical womyn-born-womyn software developer, you've harmed me countless times. Sometimes only with words; other times in ways that have held me back in favor of an individual who does not even exist. It was more important for you to hurt me than actually encourage girls to pick up a compiler, and it appears this continues to be the case.
Help me understand why you continue to hold me accountable for things I am unable to correct. What do you want me to do? Mentor girls at a local middle school? Oh wait, I can't do that, because you'd accuse me of being a transsexual pedophile who just wants to rape little girls. What do you want me to do? Start a Civ club on the internet for womyn-born-womyn only? Not only do I think the only response I'd get is crickets, I wouldn't even be able to participate in that club because you sexists continue to make the distinction between trans women and womyn-born-womyn.
You know what? Get me a genie and I'll gladly wish to be a womyn-born-womyn, period and all, just because you think I'm so fucking scared of menstruation. Afterwards, I'll give you a hearty “fuck you” and go back to my gaming and coding. Oh, but you'll still cite “male privilege” because you are so fucking sexist that you cannot see past it to see that you are the problem.
You know what else you fucking feminists? There are plenty of womyn-born-womyn who are getting sick of your sexism and brain-damage and want nothing to do with you. These women are probably the only thing keeping your venom from getting too deep into me, but it's becoming harder and harder to resist.
There is nothing I can do to stop the torrent of sexism and abuse that come from your attempts to create a hostile environment for every assigned male who knows her way around a build process and fires up Civ and Gran Turismo on occasion. (No, I did not confuse my pronouns there. Only feminists, white knights, and MRAs can't seem to comprehend how being a woman is not incompatible with a mistake made at birth based on the wrong body part.)
Are you asking me to become a sexist and lash out at womyn-born-womyn who I know are as frustrated with you as I am just because I need somebody to lash out at? That seems to be what you want, because all you have is hatred and not a spark of creativity necessary to follow this through.
Otherwise you would have just fucking done it instead of sending out a call like some bloody damsel in distress.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @02:09PM
Feminists should be killed. Men should marry young female children if they like.
(Score: 2) by gidds on Thursday October 23 2014, @04:05PM
[sig redacted]
(Score: 1) by ghost on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:12PM
Although there's no excuse for the moron that went full retard and thinks we need a new programming language where gender isn't strictly male/female. You know, because apparently every existing language has a built-in gender type and only allows male or female. Who knew?
(Score: 1) by Tangaroa on Thursday October 23 2014, @05:23PM
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:55PM
Wait, the repositories disagree with the politics? I didn't know artificial intelligence was already that advanced! ;-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:42PM
Actually, instead of nitpicking, check out the links. As parody, it's pretty amusing:
Hello World: https://gitorious.org/c-plus-equality/c-plus-equality/source/cefcfb4276889bd3833c539225a9cdfd3eb16d33:examples/hellofeminists.Xe [gitorious.org]
(Score: 1) by UrstMcRedHead on Thursday October 23 2014, @06:15PM
Computer programming; 5 minutes.
http://xkcd.com/451/ [xkcd.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @07:00PM
>"... reifies normative subject object theory..."
Ok, I've 6 years of college behind me and I have no idea what the hell that's supposed to mean.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 23 2014, @09:48PM
Pssst! You're not supposed to. That's a big part of the scam.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday October 23 2014, @11:59PM
I had to look up everything:
reification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification [wikipedia.org] (but which one!! default: to make something real; CS: creation of a data model)
normative: about how things ought to be or what is good, or about what is normal/common: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative [wikipedia.org]
subject object theory: the belief that objects are perceived by subjects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject–object_problem [wikipedia.org]
So, translating:
But reification can mean the fallacy of treating something unreal like it is real:
Anyway, the main problem with the quote is that words used are more like variables than words with specific meaning, which makes interpretation almost impossible if we don't know what she meant those variables to mean.