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posted by LaminatorX on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:41PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the whining-is-not-efficacious dept.

A grave bug has been introduced into the "wine" package of Debian Jessie, just days before the November 5th freeze deadline. The /usr/bin/wine launch script fails with an "error: unable to find wine executable. this shouldn't happen." message.

Debian has already suffered much unrest lately over the inclusion of systemd, with threats of a fork being issued, along with the possible cancellation of the GNU/kFreeBSD port and the possible dropping of support for the SPARC architecture. After so much strife and disruption, can Debian afford to have such a serious bug affect such a critical package so soon before such a major freeze?

Related Stories

Debian May Drop the SPARC Architecture 15 comments

Reported by LWN:

As of tonight, there is no more SPARC in testing. The main reasons were lack of porter commitments, problems with the toolchain and continued stability issues with our machines.

The fate of SPARC in unstable has not been decided yet. It might get removed unless people commit to working on it. Discussion about this should take place on #745938.

(Cross submitted on pipedot.org)

Rumblings of a Debian Fork Amidst Anger Over systemd 141 comments

Controversy is nothing new when it comes to systemd. Many people find this new Linux init system to be inherently flawed in most ways, yet it is still gaining traction with major distros like Arch Linux, openSUSE, Fedora, and soon both Ubuntu and Debian GNU/Linux. The adoption of systemd for Debian 8 "Jessie" has been particularly fraught with strife and animosity.

Some have described the systemd adoption process as having been a "coup", while others are vowing to stick with Debian 7 as long as possible before moving to another distro. Others are so upset by what they see as a complete betrayal of the Debian and open source communities that there is serious discussion about forking Debian. Regardless of one's stance toward systemd, it cannot be argued that it has become one of the most divisive and disruptive changes in the long history of the Debian project, threatening to destroy both the project and the community that has built up around it.

Debian GNU/kFreeBSD may be dropped from Debian 8 46 comments

According to an email sent to the Debian debian-devel-announce mailing list by Adam D. Barratt, the Debian GNU/kFreeBSD port is in grave danger of being dropped from the upcoming Debian 8 "Jessie" release. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD runs the GNU userland tools, the GNU C library and the Debian package set on top of the FreeBSD kernel.

Barratt states:

We remain gravely concerned about the viability of this port. Despite the reduced scope, we feel that the port is not currently of sufficient quality to feature as a fully supported release architecture in Jessie.

We therefore advise the kFreeBSD porters that the port is in danger of being dropped from Jessie, and invite any porters who are able to commit to working on the port in the long term to make themselves known *now*.

We will assess the viability of kFreeBSD in Jessie on or after 1st November, and a yes/no decision will be taken at that time.

Tollef Fog Heen Resigns as a Debian systemd Maintainer 134 comments

Longtime Debian contributor Tollef Fog Heen has announced his resignation from the Debian systemd maintainer team. His announcement states that "the load of the continued attacks is just becoming too much."

He has since written a detailed blog article surrounding the circumstances of his resignation. As he puts it,

I've been a DD for almost 14 years, I should be able to weather any storm, shouldn't I? It turns out that no, the mountain does get worn down by the rain. It's not a single hurtful comment here and there. There's a constant drum about this all being some sort of conspiracy and there are sometimes flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence.

This is yet another dramatic event affecting the Debian project in recent months. The adoption of systemd has been extremely controversial, even going so far as to result in calls for Debian to be forked. There have been other problems as of late, too, ranging from a serious bug breaking Wine just days before the Jessie freeze deadline, to the possibility of Debian GNU/kFreeBSD being dropped from Debian 8. And it was only just over a week ago that Joey Hess — another longtime Debian contributor — left the project, citing the "very unhealthy directions" that Debian has been led in lately.

Is the internal tension and strife caused by systemd about to tear the Debian project apart? Recent events such as the aforementioned have suggested that this is becoming more and more of a possibility. The repercussions of this drama will no doubt be felt wide and far, given Debian's own popularity, as well it forming the basis of other major Linux distros such as Ubuntu and Linux Mint.

Debian Package Request for GPC-Slots 2 Rejected - Unfairly? 136 comments

The Debian project has suffered from a long string of negative events recently, ranging from severe discontent over the inclusion of systemd, to talk of forking the project, to a grave bug affecting the important 'wine' package, to the resignation and reduced involvement of long time contributors.

The latest strife affecting Debian revolves around a request for a Debian package of the GPC-Slots 2 software. This request has been rejected with little more than an ad hominem attack against the software's author.

In response to the request, Stephen Gran wrote,

This is code by someone who routinely trolls Debian. I doubt we want any more poisonous upstreams in Debian, so I at least would prefer this never get packaged.

Jonathan Wiltshire proceeded to mark the request as 'wontfix', and closed it.

While Debian does strive to maintain high standards regarding the software it packages, the negative and personal nature of this rejection, without any apparent technical or licensing concerns, appears to conflict with Debian's own Code of Conduct. Such a personal attack could be seen as contradictory to the Code of Conduct's mandate that Debian participants "Be respectful", "Be collaborative", and most importantly, "Assume good faith".

Given its recent troubles as of late, many of them concerning the poor treatment of Debian developers and users alike, can Debian really afford to get embroiled in yet another negative incident?

Debian Re-Opens systemd Discussion 98 comments

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00001.html

A Debian developer submitted a general resolution on Thursday to re-open the systemd discussion. After getting the required number of seconds, the resolution entered the 2-week discussion period.

Debian's code freeze for the next stable release was scheduled for November 5th, so if the resolution passes, the freeze could be delayed.

The rational for this general resolution (GR) is: [continued after the break.]

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:46PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:46PM (#109916)

    All of the links in the second paragraph to Soylent News articles are seriously fucked up! Can an editor please fix them? They're very relevant and important!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:17PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:17PM (#109932)

      Someone able to edit the story please remove the 'tid' at the end of all the links in the second paragraph.

      • (Score: 2) by paulej72 on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:53PM

        by paulej72 (58) on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:53PM (#110072) Journal
        Fixed. Should show up shortly, once the cache times out.
        --
        Team Leader for SN Development
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:16PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:16PM (#110065)

      The links above would be like this?:
      http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/10/18/0050245 [soylentnews.org]
      http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/09/27/2211225 [soylentnews.org]
      http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/10/07/2313245 [soylentnews.org]
      http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/04/30/1340202 [soylentnews.org]

      btw, how come they all go to "http://soylentnews.org/__SLASHLINK__" instead while commenting?

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @09:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @09:27PM (#110076)

      Fucked-up links. Fucked up editors. Nice to see the SN is as fucked-up as /.

      Oh well, it was fun fun while it almost lasted.

      • (Score: 2) by fnj on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:51PM

        by fnj (1654) on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:51PM (#110219)

        Calm the fuck down you useless coward.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:55PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:55PM (#110220)

          He sounds calm. You're the only one here getting worked up.

  • (Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:48PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:48PM (#109919)
    Starting from release 215, systemd has functionality to emulate any Windows executable. So, it's OK if wine doesn't work, Debian users will see a Windows desktop and start button appear during the init process.
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:53PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:53PM (#109923)

      Sorry, this may sound stupid, but I need to ask it: are you serious about this, or is this just a joke?

      With systemd, I can never tell what's a feature that it seriously supports, and what's just hyperbole from opponents of systemd.

      When a co-worker first told me that systemd uses binary log files, I laughed, because I thought he was just yanking my chain. Well, it turns out he wasn't joking!

      • (Score: 1) by forkazoo on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:50AM

        by forkazoo (2561) on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:50AM (#110131)

        For the record, it is a joke. Systemd is sometimes suggested to have a feature set similar to Windows services, but that's as far as it goes. OTOH, Graphics from init actually is a real thing... Because reasons. The plan is to move Linux vtty consoles to use the new systemd framebuffer stuff. Which is why as somebody who is mostly annoyed with systemd, I found the joke very funny.

    • (Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:23PM

      by Bot (3902) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:23PM (#109937) Journal

      WTF, systemd *emulates* windows executables? I thought Lennart was going to rewrite them, one by one, putting them all in systemd.

      "So, get yourself a copy of The win64 API, ignore everything it says about DirectX compatibility and hack away your amazing Windows software. It's quite relieving!"

      Maybe he's getting old.

      --
      Account abandoned.
  • (Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:50PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:50PM (#109920)

    I just can't believe what's happening to the open source world these days.

    First there was GNOME. It has been totally trashed and destroyed as a project. GNOME 3 is a disgrace and a failure, plain and simple.

    Then there's Firefox. It too has been totally trashed and destroyed as a project. Australis is a disgrace and a failure, plain and simple.

    And now Debian?! It is in the process of being totally trashed and destroyed as a project. The inclusion of systemd and now unjustifiable bugs like this one are disgraces and failures, plain and simple.

    When I see how GNOME and Firefox died, and then I see how Debian is following along the same path, it scares the hell out of me! I like Debian. I've used it for years. But now it's being destroyed before my very eyes, by the same forces that have successfully ruined GNOME and Firefox.

    They've killed our desktop environment of choice. They've killed our web browser of choice. And now they're coming for the only thing we have left, our operating system of choice. Why? Why are they doing this to us?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:52PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:52PM (#109922)

      At least we can rest assured the free software packages we download are legit, thanks to OpenSSL.

      *ducks*

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @02:58PM (#109925)

        I stopped using Linux as soon as I heard of that explot. I've since switched to OpenBSD, because I know they audit their code thoroughly, and because I know they take security seriously. They're the only ones I can trust to do the job right.

        • (Score: 2) by CRCulver on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:21PM

          by CRCulver (4390) on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:21PM (#109969) Homepage
          While the parent is probably a troll, for those unaware, OpenBSD has been hit by SSL bugs like Heartbleed [publicsafety.gc.ca] just like Linux distros.
          • (Score: 2) by frojack on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:19PM

            by frojack (1554) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:19PM (#110048) Journal

            But rather than just patching it, they have actually started what should have been done all along.

            They forked openssl, went in with a meat cleaver and cut all the usless detritus that has been added over the years but never uses. They call it LibreOSS [libressl.org] and it will become the the standard for OpenBSD going forward. (probably with 5.6).

            Opensuse says its not quite possible to adopt it as the standard just yet, because something in their distro has to find all dependencies and adjust all packages to allow either ssl suite and also to account for glibc differences.

            Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreSSL [wikipedia.org]

            --
            No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
    • (Score: 2) by M. Baranczak on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:00PM

      by M. Baranczak (1673) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:00PM (#109927)

      How exactly is Firefox "dead"?

      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:05PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:05PM (#109928)

        Well, a browser that has only about 11% of the browser market [caniuse.com], down from a peak of over 35% a few years earlier, with an ever-falling downward trend, is pretty much the definition of "dead".

        Firefox was "ill" when it dropped from 35% to 30%. It was "dying" when it dropped from 30% to 20%. It was "dead" when it dropped below 20%.

        It's losing existing users, without really gaining any new users. That means that there is no hope of recovery, which means that death has occurred.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by HiThere on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:32PM

          by HiThere (866) on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:32PM (#110033) Journal

          The word isn't dead, it's moribund. There have been recoveries from a moribund state, there have never, outside of fiction, been any recoveries from dead.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:50PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:50PM (#110070)

            It's safe to say that Firefox is dead. There's no way they can recover at this point, and even if they possibly could, everything so far indicates that Mozilla just isn't willing to attempt this.

            Firefox is just going to remain dead. The last remaining users will bleed off soon enough.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @03:50AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @03:50AM (#110156)

              Has Netcraft confirmed it?

        • (Score: 1) by mathinker on Saturday October 25 2014, @09:57PM

          by mathinker (3463) on Saturday October 25 2014, @09:57PM (#110087)

          Gee, I'd always associated "dead" with "not being actively developed", not something having to do with market share. So this means that increasing diversity in a particular application niche eventually causes all of the applications in that niche to "die", rather than being a reflection of healthiness?

          That's just bizarre.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @10:44PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @10:44PM (#110097)

            What they are describing is a lack of genetic diversity. [wikipedia.org]

            When you have a winner-take-all environment, really bad things happen. [wikipedia.org]
            It's amazing how we don't learn from the past. [wikipedia.org]

            Monocultures are not something to be admired.
            Straight-line first-past-the-post capitalist "thinkers" are so boring.

            -- gewg_

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:04PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:04PM (#110099)

            Firefox has no future. That's the same as being dead. It doesn't matter how many developers are working on it. If nobody actually uses it, and the number of users left is indeed approaching zero, then it's a dead project. Firefox is meeting that criteria.

            • (Score: 1) by mathinker on Sunday October 26 2014, @07:10PM

              by mathinker (3463) on Sunday October 26 2014, @07:10PM (#110293)

              Nah, it's just pining for the users!

              (It seems that humor is a more worthwhile reply than trying to actually reason with a post which just reiterated the points I addressed rather than actually adding something to the conversation.)

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Arik on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:22PM

        by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:22PM (#109936) Journal
        I would not say it's dead but it's clearly dying.

        They've spent years doggedly courting new users who were never interested, while in the process alienating their existing user base. Very much like GNOME.
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:23PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:23PM (#109971)

          This, a thousand times over. Gnome went through every contortion possible to make their environment more "accessible," yet they never made it more productive, just changed what was visible (and removed useful things). Firefox tries to lure in people who are already using another browser, and they do so mainly with eye candy rather than the features that draw people to Chrome (or even Safari).

          They both lost sight of the purposes that they originally served, and they went chasing after the ghosts of popularity rather than trying to be the best at fulfilling their purposes. Kind of like if Microsoft gave up on Windows and Office and decided that the future was in smartwatches, tablets, and phones -- it would be a fucking disaster.

          As much as I hate agile/scrum bullshit, this is why user-stories exist. Developers should keep in mind what they are designing and stick to that use case.

          • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:47PM

            by LoRdTAW (3755) on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:47PM (#110017) Journal

            The problem with Firefox, at least in my eyes, is that it hosts all tabs in a single process. A bug could allow a compromised tab peak at the memory of another open tab, say your banking site. That right there is a big vulnerability and why I switched to Chrome. Plus who here hasn't had a tab take out the whole browser? Another annoying FF problem. I liked the simple interface of Chrome, syncing ability and better HTML 5 support (back when it was the new kid on the block). I never looked back. However, I do use FF on older, low memory systems that cant deal with Chromes high memory usage. And that of course, is my only beef with Chrome, it loves memory. But on modern desktops with 4+GB RAM, it is a non-issue.

            As for the multi-process feature of Chrome, the FF team is working on it: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox/Multiprocess_Firefox [mozilla.org] Maybe one day I will switch back.

            • (Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:16PM

              by opinionated_science (4031) on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:16PM (#110025)

              mod up +100000. Multi-process is the only sane way to have a browser that faces the internet!!!!!

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @10:40PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @10:40PM (#110095)

                Electrolysis [google.com]

                For the adventurous, it's been available for a while. Nightlies [google.com]

                -- gewg_

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:10PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:10PM (#110100)

                  We've been hearing that Electrolysis will be available "soon" for a long time now. Like since mid 2011 [mozilla.org]. It still isn't here yet, as we're about to enter 2015. Face it, Elecrolysis is a failed project. Even if they manage to get it into a stable release, they'll still have lagged Chrome by many, many years. That's a total failure.

            • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:37PM

              by HiThere (866) on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:37PM (#110035) Journal

              While a problem, that's not what's hurting Firefox. What's hurting Firefox is trying to coerce desktop users to use the same interface that they think will work well on a tablet, or possibly on a phone.

              If they'd just revert the GUI to last year's (or the year before) and concentrate of fixing programming problems things would be much better. If they need a mobile version, have that GUI run out of a totally separate design group. Once you have two good versions, then you can refactor the commonalities, but don't break the working one while chasing after a new market share.

              --
              Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
              • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:25PM

                by LoRdTAW (3755) on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:25PM (#110050) Journal

                Agreed on the UI part. I recently installed FF on an XP system with 1GB RAM. I haven't used FF in a while and I was surprised to see that it copies Chrome's UI. And to me, it is a blatant rip-off. I would rather they fix their bugs and other niggling issues before trying to copy other peoples UI's and optimize for the tablet.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:37PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:37PM (#110055)

                  Copying Chrome's UI wouldn't be a problem if Chrome's UI was good. But it isn't. It's total shit, too.

                  Firefox used to offer a decent UI, but poor performance. Chrome offered a shitty UI, but excellent performance. Now Firefox offers a shitty UI, and poor performance. Chrome still offers a shitty UI, but excellent performance.

                  So given that Firefox is bad in both respects, and Chrome is at least good in one, sensible Firefox users have moved to Chrome.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:18PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:18PM (#110066)

                    I consider myself sensible, and I resist Google on all fronts.

                    I've tried seamonkey, ice weasel, and am now settled on pale moon when doing new installs.

                    With a 3rd party compiling of pale moon for XP/Server 2003 OSes, it is now my browser of choice for anyone that is creeped out about everything they hear about personal data, or the company store (no matter whose loyalty they have sworn fealty to), etc.

                    Firefox clearly sold out on themselves and the userbase, even if they made nothing inherently obvious by driving their users away. I can't think of any person I know that uses it--except for perhaps the ESR version 24.5, and only because they have disabled the updating and don't surf the web much. I also do not know anyone that switched from Firefox to Chrome.

                    People I know/work with already either refused to use Chrome or already had it. I would even pay a modest fee to license a copy of some real firefox and keep the faith alive. I am doubting that will ever be an option; they already are getting funding to do what they are doing which nobody likes. I doubt they will get funding to do something different.
                         

            • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday October 29 2014, @06:25PM

              by urza9814 (3954) on Wednesday October 29 2014, @06:25PM (#111292) Journal

              Plus who here hasn't had a tab take out the whole browser?

              I can crash my Chrome install almost on demand. I switched back to Firefox because Chrome was crashing a few times a day. Sometimes a few times an *hour*. On the other hand, I can go months between crashes with Firefox. There's only one website I've encountered that causes Firefox to crash, and it only happens if I leave that site open for several days. I'm not going to name the site, it's one I use private browsing for ;)

              Of course, in a couple months I'll probably hit some snag with Firefox and go back to Chrome. I tend to switch browsers every few months, although Firefox has been working well since Australis. I don't get why that gets so much hate either -- that and Cyanogenmod are the only things I've ever wanted enough to install a nightly build!

              • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday October 29 2014, @07:01PM

                by LoRdTAW (3755) on Wednesday October 29 2014, @07:01PM (#111311) Journal

                Interesting experience. Chrome has been pretty damn stable for me and this is on multiple systems. AMD, Intel, Windows 7, and Linux. It always works. The only issues I had was the updater crapping itself every once in a rare while but it just fixed itself. One thing to add, I always close Chrome every few days. Not purposely, but after a while I don't have a need to keep it open and I close it.

                I think the main allure that got me hooked on Chrome early was the minimal UI and HTML 5 (no more flash for youtube).

                • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday October 30 2014, @01:07PM

                  by urza9814 (3954) on Thursday October 30 2014, @01:07PM (#111496) Journal

                  Yeah, it's actually only on my work system that Chrome does that, but it's damn annoying. After using it for a while it'll enter a state where damn near any link I click causes the whole browser to crash. For some reason I suffered through that for at least a month before finally switching to Firefox. I do use Chromium along with Firefox on my home system and that doesn't have the same problems, although I don't notice it being any *more* stable than Firefox either.

                  I do suspect part of the problem is that I rarely close my browsers. I even have Firefox in my initrc file. And I have them remember the previously open tabs, so even when I close (or crash) the browser there are still tabs that I've had open probably since I bought my computer (gmail for example). I actually do this with most programs though -- once I open Kate or Chromium or Dolphin, they're not getting closed either until I need to reboot! :)

    • (Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:26PM

      by Bot (3902) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:26PM (#109940) Journal

      If a testing bug before freeze decrees the death of debian, I guess all other operating systems are already zombies.

      --
      Account abandoned.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:36PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:36PM (#109943)

        I know you're being facetious, but what you're saying is true anyway. We use Debian because it has always been the least-fucked-up of all of the major distros. Fedora, for example, has always been a dead distro, because its quality is generally so low. Now we're seeing Debian stoop to the level of these other, shittier distros. Bugs this obvious and severe never used to happen with Debian. But things have clearly changed with the project and its leadership. Sensibility and quality have been thrown out the window, and now we users are paying the price!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:16PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:16PM (#110000)
          Oh please, the good old days weren't that great. If this had happened 10 or 15 years ago, OP's bug would have been closed "WONTFIX: We don't provide support for proprietary M$ windoze shitware. See gnu.org/alternatives to find suitable Free/Libre replacements". And then we would have a 6-month flamefest about whether to move wine into non-free for enabling enabling dependency on proprietary Windows shitware.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:23PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:23PM (#110008)

            This kind of bug wouldn't have happened in the pre-systemd days of Debian. I know, because I've used Debian since almost the beginning of its existence, and I've used Wine since it started to become usable.

            Debian's standards have sunk mighty low these days. A lot of crap that just never would have been allowed before is being tolerated now. And we're seeing the result in crap like systemd being included by default, GNOME 3 being the default desktop, and now totally unnecessary bugs like this breaking lots of software.

      • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:49PM

        by HiThere (866) on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:49PM (#110036) Journal

        While you're right that that's a hyperbolic overstatement, it is a significant problem that should not have been allowed to occur at this stage of the release process. I've reverted from testing to stable, and it's not clear that I'll stay with debian. If I weren't temporarily locked into ext4 partitions, I'd strongly consider switching to one of the BSDs. As it is I'll hope that if I stick with Wheezy for awhile things will straighten out. Or maybe I'll switch to Slackware. I really don't want to go to Gentoo. (The last time that I seriously looked at it I spent so much time resolving problems that I eventually gave it up. It's been awhile, but some people are saying that it hasn't gotten any better.)

        The other possibility is CentOS. It's not a choice I like, as the security system isn't to my taste (or needs) and it's incompatible with non-RedHat installs in other partitions. (Well, it was a few years ago, when I was still flipping between distros to figure out which is best.) OTOH, if I'm going to be stuck with systemd, I might as well use a distro that supports it decently. Possibly I could have one partition for CentOS and one for Fedora and still get them to work together. But that might take more investment of time and effort than would switching to a BSD.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:43PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:43PM (#110060)

          You should consider FreeBSD. It's as close as you're going to get to what Debian used to offer, before Debian collectively went stupid and started doing stuff like systemd and bugs like this.

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by VLM on Sunday October 26 2014, @11:19AM

          by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Sunday October 26 2014, @11:19AM (#110208)

          " If I weren't temporarily locked into ext4 partitions, I'd strongly consider switching to one of the BSDs."

          "supports" as in you can install your *BSD root partition to ext4, naw. "supports" as in you can read the partition and copy the contents to a new ZFS partition or whatever, sure, thats generally fine. Kind of like linux "supports" msdos partition, as in you can access it, but not necessarily install your system on it. There was a system to do that in the early 90s but it was really weird.

          Historically people have run into weird bugs where ext4 FS get accidentally mounted as ext2. Really, ext3 is just 2 with a journal, so if you don't mount RW its difficult to tell them apart, and I guess 4 doesn't add much either.

          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Sunday October 26 2014, @07:26PM

            by HiThere (866) on Sunday October 26 2014, @07:26PM (#110299) Journal

            I don't need it as a root partition, but I do need to be able to both read and write to it. AFTER I've successfully migrated, THEN I'll consider going totally to a non-Linux partition. Too many times what some people praise isn't what I need, so the conversion needs to be in stages.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:47AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:47AM (#110120)

      "3 times it's enemy action."

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 27 2014, @01:02PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 27 2014, @01:02PM (#110489)

      What's wrong with GNOME and Firefox, mate?!? They are now better than ever! This is just silly and unnecessary dramatizing of the situation. Nothing is going to happen to the Debian project. Not any time soon. Jessie will come out in 2015 and it will be as stable and secure as Wheezy.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:00PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:00PM (#109926)

    I don't use Debian, so I don't know much about its development process. But can somebody explain to me how a bug like this could even happen?

    How can a package be updated and made available to the public with such an obvious and blatant flaw?

    I mean, did the package maintainer not even try to install it and then use it, even just once?

    Given how it fails in such a basic way, it appears to me that absolutely no testing whatsoever was done! That's unbelievable, especially for a distro like Debian, that has generally had a good reputation.

    • (Score: 1) by Entropy on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:20PM

      by Entropy (4228) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:20PM (#109935)

      It probably didn't happen on the test system(s). It's quite possible for a bug to manifest differently or not at all depending on what else is going on with the system in question. I doubt it was as egregious as "I never tried to run wine, it doesn't work?"

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:32PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:32PM (#109942)

        I don't think that's true in this case. Look at the patch that supposedly fixes it. The script contains some broken paths. It should fail on any test system.

        If testing was actually done, and it didn't fail, then something is seriously, seriously broken with the test system. That in itself is another inexcusable problem.

        So not only is the package itself fucked up, but now the test system hasn't been properly configured or maintained, either?

        Somebody has seriously screwed up here, in multiple ways, with horrible timing.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:33PM (#110034)

          To err is human... There are no inexcusable problems.

          • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:52PM

            by HiThere (866) on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:52PM (#110038) Journal

            No. But sometime strings of errors smell of intent. This can be a mistake, but it can also be a mistake to ignore the odor.

            --
            Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
    • (Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:21PM

      by Bot (3902) on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:21PM (#109970) Journal

      Given that the executable works and it is a case of borked launcher script because some paths have changed, it is very likely that the packager built the new version and ran it directly. IIRC Debian has helper scripts that prepare chroots for packaging purposes.

      I think we are throwing out the baby and his older brother and the dog with the bathwater.

      --
      Account abandoned.
      • (Score: 2) by DECbot on Sunday October 26 2014, @07:54PM

        by DECbot (832) on Sunday October 26 2014, @07:54PM (#110307) Journal

        With systemd, they're all integrated tightly into the bathwater, so how could you tell what you're throwing out? I guess the binary logs might help. Of course those depend on the bathwater too.

        --
        cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
    • (Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday October 25 2014, @09:28PM

      by sjames (2882) on Saturday October 25 2014, @09:28PM (#110077) Journal

      Really, it didn't. This is the testing distro, not stable.

      It is not preferred that this big a package problem crop up this close to a freeze, but it isn't fair to compare it to something released as stable. That has not happened.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:17PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:17PM (#110103)

        Unlike e.g. Ubuntu, who puts the release date in their version number (and is compelled to meet that shipping date), Debian ships when the code is ready.

        ...and before they declare it ready, they squash all known bugs. [archive.org]

        -- gewg_

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:18PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:18PM (#109933)

    I've been using Debian for many years now. I generally like it. It tends to work, it's easy to install packages, and it's easy to get updates. But my faith in it has been shaken lately. Like the summary says, it has been one act of idiocy after another from the Debian project.

    But what's my alternative?

    I refuse to use an RPM-based Linux distro, because they're always total shit. Any project that chooses a shitty package manager will obviously do everything else wrong, too.

    Slackware has some potential, but it feels like an ancient relic. It hasn't just missed out on all of the bad developments within the Linux world since the 1990s, it as missed out on all of the good ones, too!

    Gentoo has always come of as very amateurish to me. And I don't want to run up my electricity bill just to install packages from source.

    FreeBSD is looking like the best alternative to Debian. If Debian doesn't get its act together, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to move away from Linux altogether.

    • (Score: 2) by Arik on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:24PM

      by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:24PM (#109938) Journal
      "Slackware has some potential, but it feels like an ancient relic. It hasn't just missed out on all of the bad developments within the Linux world since the 1990s, it as missed out on all of the good ones, too!"

      That's where you are wrong. Give it a try. It's a wonderful system and virtually anything you used on another OS that is not included in the base install is available as a slackbuild.

      --
      If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:38PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:38PM (#109945)

        How easy is it to keep a Slackware system up to date? It's very easy under Debian: "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade". Is it that simple under Slackware? Are the Slackware packages kept as up to date as the Debian ones are?

        • (Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:39PM

          by arashi no garou (2796) on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:39PM (#109980)

          Install slackware-current, install slapt-get and configure it for slackware-current, and you have a rolling-release OS with up to date, bleeding edge packages. It's like Arch without the sado-masochistic, user hating project leaders (and no systemd! ).

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:50PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:50PM (#109986)

            I like the no systemd part, but how much effort does the rest of it actually take? Like "configure it for slackware-current", is that as simple as editing /etc/apt/sources.list is under Debian?

            How frequently are the packages updated? Let's say a new version of bash or Firefox is released today. How long will it be until I can install it using the Slackware package management tools?

            • (Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:12PM

              by arashi no garou (2796) on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:12PM (#109997)

              Like "configure it for slackware-current", is that as simple as editing /etc/apt/sources.list is under Debian?

              Pretty much, yeah. See http://software.jaos.org/git/slapt-get/plain/README [jaos.org] for details.

              How frequently are the packages updated? Let's say a new version of bash or Firefox is released today. How long will it be until I can install it using the Slackware package management tools?

              Even though it's fairly bleeding edge, Pat and the Slackware team still test each package before releasing it to the -current tree. So, there is some delay from source release to an official Slackware package release, even on -current. For example, take gimp-2.8.14. It was released in source format by the GIMP authors on August 26th, and the slackware-current package was released on October 25th (today), two months later. Of course, you're always free to build your own package using a Slackbuild and the most recent source, but any testing is your own responsibility in that scenario.

              In my mind, that kind of thing is what makes Slackware the most versatile OS out there. Stick with the stable branch for optimum stability at the cost of current features, use the -current branch for fairly up to date packages that have been vetted by the Slackware team, or roll your own packages as the source is released for the absolute bleeding edge, warts and all.

      • (Score: 2) by CRCulver on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:24PM

        by CRCulver (4390) on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:24PM (#109973) Homepage

        It's a wonderful system and virtually anything you used on another OS that is not included in the base install is available as a slackbuild.

        So I have to stare at compiler output for hours before I can run lots of popular Linux software on my computer, as opposed to just installing a conveniently packaged deb/rpm like on any other system? No thanks. I do like Slackware for certain niches, but the Slackbuild system makes it a pain for conventional desktop installations.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:13PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:13PM (#109999)

          Building from source isn't a problem for C code, since C code compiles really fast. But it's fucking unbearable for anything written in C++. Like if you want Firefox and KDE installed on Gentoo, be prepared to wait a week, even on expensive, fast modern workstations.

        • (Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:09PM

          by arashi no garou (2796) on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:09PM (#110021)

          If you don't want to wait for the source to compile to use a slackbuild, you can always use the pre-built packages available from some of the core Slackware team, like AlienBOB's packages at http://www.slackware.com/~alien/slackbuilds/ [slackware.com] or Robby Workman's at http://rlworkman.net/pkgs/ [rlworkman.net] . If you don't trust those sources (and for the record, I do but I've been using Slackware more or less since 1999, so I feel safe with them), you can always build your packages from source when you sleep. Recently I built Chromium from the slackbuild and the latest source to test a bug in the notification area (specifically, to see if it really had been fixed in the latest source release); I started it around 6pm, watched some TV and ate dinner, went to bed, and the next day it was ready.

          Generally, when using slackbuilds via sbopkg, I've noticed that most simple packages compile in a matter of seconds or minutes, with some GUI apps taking about half an hour to an hour, and very few complicated packages (the aforementioned Chromium, Firefox, GIMP, etc.) taking several hours. This is on an old Core 2 Duo machine, which is my Slackware workhorse and not my main workstation, so I can afford to have it churning away at slackbuilds while I get things done on my main rig.

        • (Score: 2) by Arik on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:29PM

          by Arik (4543) on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:29PM (#110104) Journal
          "So I have to stare at compiler output for hours"

          What kind of idiot stares at compiler output? Seriously, wtf?

          First off, just about anything you could possibly want is already available as a binary, so if you're the type that would rather have a whopper than a filet mignon, go for it.

          But if you do want to (or, much less likely, need to) compile something, you act like that's some sort of chore, so clearly you've never done it. It's no chore at all. On modern hardware it's usually something that can be done in seconds, after all. Sure, compiling something huge (like say you decide to recompile your entire KDE installation just for fun) can take some time, but it's not like you would be forced to do that (binaries for big compiles like KDE and GNOME are easily obtained) and even if you want to do it, you dont sit and stare at compiler output. You press enter and then go to sleep/lunch/the park whatever while it works. When you come back it's done.

          The computer is supposed to be your servant, not your taskmaster.

          --
          If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:08AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:08AM (#110123)

            What else is he supposed to do, use Chrome during the 8 hours it takes to compile it? Or should he use KDE during the week it takes to compile it instead, maybe? Oh, wait, none of that is possible. You can't use the software until it's done compiling!

            • (Score: 1) by Pino P on Monday November 24 2014, @12:48AM

              by Pino P (4721) on Monday November 24 2014, @12:48AM (#119267) Journal

              Then download the binary for the generic architecture and use that in a chroot while compiling a fully optimized build.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by melikamp on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:43PM

      by melikamp (1886) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:43PM (#109947) Journal

      In some respects, Slackware release is more modern than Debian stable, and has been for a while. The kernel, for example, is newer. So calling Slackware 14.1 an "ancient relic" requires some explaining, at the very least.

      However, Slackware won't appeal to many users, and it is not intended to. Aficionados praise it for very simple design (nearly all configuration residing in text files), very simple and flexible package management (no dependency checking), and the general tendency to stay out of the user's way. It is perfect for learning how to administer a modern GNU+Linux OS, and it is much loved by admins who desire complete control over the OS behavior. An average user, however, will be completely put off by the sheer amount of reading required to do basic things like enabling server daemons and installing additional software.

      If you are not afraid to pop the hood and get your hands dirty, definitely give it a try.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:47PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:47PM (#109951)

        If I were to install the most recent version of Slackware Linux available today, how much effort and configuration would it take before I got a fully working system, including at least one of the major desktop environments?

        It takes just a few minutes and almost no effort when using Debian or Ubuntu. It's just a few mouse clicks and the system is usable.

        I know it wasn't that simple the last time I tried Slackware, but that was many years ago. I remember having to edit config files, having to start X manually, and all sorts of unfriendliness like that.

        What's the current situation?

        • (Score: 2) by melikamp on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:11PM

          by melikamp (1886) on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:11PM (#109965) Journal
          Slackware actually features one of the fastest installation DVDs out there, with users reporting less than 20 minutes from popping the DVD into drive to booting into the installed OS. You will need to partition the drive with fdisk or cfdisk. (If this is too hard, use a live CD from a different distro.) After that, answering installer questions should be sufficient to get a fully working system. The X just works out of the box, but it is not started by default, so you will need to login and say startx. Making it start by default requires editing /etc/inittab (just one byte :). Like I said, it won't hold your hand. But on the plus side, it won't hold your hand either.
    • (Score: 2) by meisterister on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:33AM

      by meisterister (949) on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:33AM (#110139) Journal

      +1 to FreeBSD, just because I've also been considering it as an alternative (I've installed it on one of my systems and enjoy all of it except for LLVM). For the modern Linux user, the most striking thing is how customizable it is. It won't do anything until you tell it to, then do it well.

      --
      (May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
    • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Sunday October 26 2014, @11:40AM

      by Magic Oddball (3847) on Sunday October 26 2014, @11:40AM (#110210) Journal

      Nice troll. If you'd bothered trying anything other than Debian, you'd realize that your comments are full of either gross ignorance or flaming BS — on par with the people that buy into the "omg all distros excpect 'buntu force you to use the terminal for liek everything and are liek for expert super-geeks only!" crap. I'd certainly say it's foolish to the extreme to abandon Linux because the distro you're used to isn't up to par anymore; I'm considering PC-BSD, but it's as a last resort.

      One option is Void Linux, which is another foundation distro (not based on any others). It reportedly allows users to stick with binary repos if they wish, usual choice of desktop environments, choice of inits, and I don't know much else. Looks pretty standard, but I haven't tried it yet (just downloaded it).

      I jumped from Debian to OpenSUSE after a brief battle with Jessie. If it wasn't for the mild differences between YaST/zypper and Synaptic/apt, and a slight difference in how dependencies are handled, I wouldn't actually know which was which. Otherwise, it's easier in OpenSUSE: it hosts repos for users that want to build packages & has a master search to cover all of them (so I'm not stuck choosing only between official repos & well-publicized alternates), and when a package is installed from an alternate repo, YaST/zypper asks if I want to add it to my list of places to grab updates.

      I gave Slackware a try for the first time recently. The only thing that seemed even remotely outdated was that it uses a text installer that lets the user make major decisions rather than forcing everything on us. It lets users rely entirely on binary repos if they choose, and offers the same desktop environments but they run faster & more reliably than I'd seen in Debian lately.

      I haven't tried Gentoo, but it comes across as professional, just not overly commercial. I'm not interested in building from source, but I doubt I'd run my electricity bill up given my laptop's on and *if* it's active enough to give off much heat, that would just mean not having to use a space heater as often. No biggie.

      As I've said to many Ubuntu users that haven't dared try anything else in recent years (if at all): give current releases of the other distros a try with an open mind rather than assuming that what you're used to is automatically 'better,' and you might be very surprised at what you find. I'm hoping that Debian will find its way back to the proverbial light, because so many great distros (like SimplyMEPIS and MX-14) have been based on it, but I'm sure as hell not giving up on Linux purely because some (or even most) Debian devs have rectal-cranial inversion disorder at the moment...

    • (Score: 2) by fnj on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:01PM

      by fnj (1654) on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:01PM (#110224)

      I refuse to use an RPM-based Linux distro, because they're always total shit.

      Good thing you're a coward with no identity, because you just made a ass of yourself. All the professional users of RHEL and SUSE Enterprise are laughing their asses off at what a fool you are.

    • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday November 24 2014, @03:49PM

      by kaszz (4211) on Monday November 24 2014, @03:49PM (#119439) Journal

      "I refuse to use an RPM-based Linux distro, because they're always total shit."

      Why is RPM shit?

  • (Score: 2) by Konomi on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:47PM

    by Konomi (189) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:47PM (#109949)

    There are always bugs in Debian like this, and checking the bug report page there is already a patch. Freezing isn't something that implies "Oh no the software is broken and it's a freeze1111!", freeze just means no new versions are likely to enter the repos unless it's needed to fix some bug that can't be patched. I don't know why this is over dramatised as some sort of topic that needs detailed discussion. Seriously community, everyone grow the hell up and stop devolving into some 16 year old sleep over party, fucking shesh.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:49PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:49PM (#109954)

      I use wine to play some games on my Debian system. I just updated wine a few minutes ago, and ran into this bug. I don't care if there's a patch. It's useless to me if I can't immediately pull it in as an update. Besides, it's a really stupid and obvious bug when you look at the patch. How did it even happen?! Didn't they test it at all?!

      • (Score: 2) by Konomi on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:52PM

        by Konomi (189) on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:52PM (#109955)

        There is not guarantee you will not run into bugs in testing, it is called testing for a reason. If you have problems with that I suggest you fall back to stable. Even if the bug may seem obvious to you it is easy for bugs to not show up for the maintainer building the package because of something different on their system that they don't notice.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:53PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:53PM (#109987)

          Have you looked at the patch? This is a pretty inexcusable bug, even for an unstable or testing version. This isn't an obscure problem that only happens on certain systems. This is a shell script with completely fucked up paths to binaries!

          • (Score: 2) by Konomi on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:05PM

            by Konomi (189) on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:05PM (#109989)

            Yes, I read the patch before I replied to you and my previous reply still stands.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:25PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:25PM (#110009)

              No, it doesn't stand. This is the kind of bug that even minimal testing by the package maintainer should have detected right away. If this did slip through, then Debian needs to do a massive and thorough review of their entire testing procedure.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:57PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @06:57PM (#110040)

                join the wine team and help fix it, you entitled kid...

                in free software you receive a gift from developers and you are allowed to participate on the creative process

                you are not a costumer and they are not trying to sell you anything... grab this into your forehead

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:41PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:41PM (#110057)

                  Joining the Wine team won't help. This isn't a problem with Wine. This is a problem with Debian. Debian needs to fix their shit.

                  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:12PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:12PM (#110064)

                    Join the debian WINE team. Derp.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:52PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:52PM (#110071)

                      Why would I waste my time and effort volunteering for a failed organization like Debian? The whole systemd debacle should never have happened. And this bug never should have happened. I have better things to do with my time than work with inept groups of people.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Marand on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:33PM

        by Marand (1081) on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:33PM (#109975) Journal

        I use wine to play some games on my Debian system. I just updated wine a few minutes ago, and ran into this bug. I don't care if there's a patch. It's useless to me if I can't immediately pull it in as an update.

        This will sound harsh, but it's only useless to you because you're choosing to be useless.

        You've chosen to use the testing distro, and now you're upset that a bug is affecting you. That's like using the Windows 10 preview that's out and then complaining that you found a bug in it. If you're not willing to accept that there will be problems like this and either wait for a fix or try to find a workaround, then you clearly installed Debian from the wrong repository.

        You have options you can choose to deal with the problem:

        1. Don't use the testing repository if you can't handle occasional temporary breakage. It's called "testing" for a reason. Stick to the stable release and use the backports repository.
        2. Wait for the update.
        3. Mix repositories. You can often cherry pick pieces out of stable or unstable as needed. If you really need wine to not change abruptly, start using it out of stable perhaps.
        4. Try using the repository from winehq.org. It says it's for sid (unstable) but outside of a freeze unstable and testing don't differ much.
        5. Compile it from source. Wine is dead simple to compile. Getting games to work in wine is more difficult than compiling wine itself
        6. Buy CrossOver.

        I personally like option #5 because it's easy to keep multiple versions of wine around if needed for wider compatibility, plus I can always have the newest version when I want it.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:07PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:07PM (#109990)

          This isn't an obscure bug, though. This is Wine not starting up at all! It's obvious with even the most minimal level of testing. This is as bad as the JVM not starting up, or the Python interpreter not starting. This bug makes it so that thousands of other programs now can't be run. It's a very serious bug.

          • (Score: 2) by Marand on Sunday October 26 2014, @04:37AM

            by Marand (1081) on Sunday October 26 2014, @04:37AM (#110167) Journal

            This isn't an obscure bug, though. This is Wine not starting up at all! It's obvious with even the most minimal level of testing. This is as bad as the JVM not starting up, or the Python interpreter not starting. This bug makes it so that thousands of other programs now can't be run. It's a very serious bug.

            Why does it matter that it's obscure or not? It's a bug, it's testing, it will get fixed in time. This isn't the first time something major has broken in testing, and it won't be the last. I switched from stable to testing in 2005 and have been using it since, and while uncommon, this sort of thing does occasionally happen. Sometimes it's dependency screw-ups that make a package remove stuff it shouldn't, other times it's packaging errors that just break a program, but they get ironed out, especially for the bigger packages. One example that stands out in my memory is Compiz, because it used to break quite often between updates.

            I'm not saying the bug isn't a bad one, but it's not a world-ending problem. Hell, the previous version (1.6.2-8) is still in the repository so it's not like you're stuck with the bad one. The first response to "oh crap wine broke" should have been "I better downgrade to the last working version" rather than "I will complain on SN about this".

            These sorts of things are part of using the testing repo, though I'll admit it's easy to forget that considering how solid the testing repo usually is. I started using it as a rolling-release Debian on my main system because the major problems are so rare, but occasionally something like this happens and I just work around it for a few days.

            Also, not directly relevant, but wine breakage vs python breakage isn't even remotely comparable, considering Python and Perl are actually needed for parts of the system but wine isn't. The JVM comparison is closer, though.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @09:30AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @09:30AM (#110199)

        If you want to use Debian unstable or testing, then consider using apt-listbugs [debian.org] which notifies you of known critical bugs in packages you are attempting to install/update. Maintaining a system that's running a non-stable distro requires some sysadmining effort. If you don't want to expend that effort, run a stable distro. (Personally, I've switched to running Ubuntu on all but my primary desktop which runs Debian unstable.)

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:56PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @03:56PM (#109957)

      I didn't expect such a news story on SN

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:09PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:09PM (#109995)

        This is a very relevant submission for SN. It highlights yet another serious problem affecting Debian these days. These problems just keep adding up, and it has gotten a lot worse since the whole systemd debacle.

        This is just the kind of news I want to find at SN. This is the kind of news that nobody else covers, but it still impacts thousands and thousands of people.

        This is a lot better than yet another shitty submission about that man who robbed that store in Ferguson and then attacked the cops and got shot to death. This submission is at least relevant and useful!

    • (Score: 2) by Marand on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:16PM

      by Marand (1081) on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:16PM (#109967) Journal

      There are always bugs in Debian like this, and checking the bug report page there is already a patch. Freezing isn't something that implies "Oh no the software is broken and it's a freeze1111!", freeze just means no new versions are likely to enter the repos unless it's needed to fix some bug that can't be patched. I don't know why this is over dramatised as some sort of topic that needs detailed discussion.

      It's also worth noting that this is the entire point of the testing repository. Outside of a freeze, packages start in unstable, and if they go ten days without any massive bugs getting noticed, they get dumped into testing automatically. Other bugs might show up during testing, but they eventually go away with new packages trickling down from unstable.

      During a freeze, the testing repo stops getting those automatic new versions and goes into what is basically bugfix mode. What this means is that outside of freeze, a package might go from version 1.2 to 1.3 to 1.4, but if it freezes at 1.4, updates will be 1.4.1, 1.4.2, etc., just fixing bugs in version 1.4 without adding new features.

      This is also how the stable repository works, so in essence, a freeze on testing just means it's acting like the stable repository for an arbitrary period while they prepare to make it the next stable. Debian is very strict about not adding new features to software in the stable repo, so the testing freeze is just setup for the next stable release.

      Debian's strict avoidance of version changing in stable is why its version of Firefox (iceweasel) follows the ESR release instead of the more rapidly-moving normal Firefox source: because the ESR one gets bugfixes without new features. It also kept chromium from getting into Debian for a while due to similar concerns, but that eventually got ironed out.

      It's also the reason Debian has a reputation for having outdated software. A lot of time is spent in freeze ironing out bugs before going stable, and unless you use backports, you won't see a new version beyond bug fixes, ensuring a consistent experience for the lifespan of that release.

      ---

      TL;DR: Unless this still occurs when jessie hits stable, this is a non-news example of a testing repository being used for testing. Submitter AC is likely either a troll or upset that WoW stopped working briefly and used SN's frontpage for his soapbox rant.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:04PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:04PM (#109988)

        I don't think this submission is a "troll". Wine isn't just one application. It's a system that allows many thousands upon thousands of other apps to run. If you break Wine, you've broken a lot of other software. It would be like the Java VM not running any software, or the Python interpreter no longer starting up. It's a very, very serious bug.

        This bug comment [debian.org] is very ominous suonding, too:

        btw:
        Jessie/Testing still has 1.6.2-8.
        So if we want all changes since then to enter Jessie (including the
        non-release-critical changes) /someone/ should upload a fixed version
        until *October 26th which is in 3 days* (or even earlier since it has to
        be accepted, ...).
        See " rel="url2html-19988">https://release.debian.org/jessie/freeze_policy.html.

        That makes it sound like a fix needs to be integrated very soon otherwise this problem could be present for a long time. Maybe it's just worded poorly, but that's how I interpret it.

        As it stands, it's now October 25 and there's still no update to that bug's tread of discussion indicating that it has been fixed.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:25PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:25PM (#109974)

      "SoylentNews is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop. Only 11 submissions in the queue."

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:42PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:42PM (#109981)

        > "SoylentNews is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop. Only 11 submissions in the queue."

        If only this were a scoop instead of the normal way debian testing works.

        It isn't that this is an off-topic story (I have no patience for people who make that complaint), it is a non-story.

        It kind of has a systemd-troll vibe about it though.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:28PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:28PM (#110013)

          It's not a non-story. It's a major story. I've been using Debian unstable for a long time. I've got thousands upon thousands of packages installed. And I've never had one break this severely, from such a stupid problem that should have been instantly detected by any normal testing procedure. This is big news. I'm glad that SoylentNews is reporting it. At least now I know not to update wine any time soon!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:37PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @08:37PM (#110069)

            > It's not a non-story. It's a major story.

            Only for someone who has a very self-centered perspective.
            Come back when a bug like this ends up in stable.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:12PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:12PM (#110101)

              It's a bug that never should have happened in the first place. I'm not even certain that the package maintainer did a minimal level of testing. You know, like installing the package and seeing if it works. Because clearly it's really fucking broken.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:15AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @12:15AM (#110114)

                Why don't your volunteer to do something about it, smartass? Get a dictionary and look up "unstable" and "testing". Fucktard.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:11AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:11AM (#110124)

                  In the past, I would have. I've contributed a number of fixes to Debian packages in the past. I used to maintain several packages, too. But after the whole systemd incident, and the tyranny that it involved, I refuse to contribute to the Debian project any longer. When FreeBSD 10.1 is out in a couple of weeks, I'm switching to it, and I'm not looking back. I'm done with Debian as a contributor, and I'll soon be done with it as a user.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:15AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:15AM (#110134)

                    But you'll continue on as a whiner . . .

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:00PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:00PM (#110222)

                      Pointing out Debian's idiocy is much more productive than trying to contribute to Debian. It's not worth contributing until the idiocy has been cleared away.

    • (Score: 2) by neagix on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:46PM

      by neagix (25) on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:46PM (#110240)

      I am also very much surprised about the tone and most of the comments here.

      Sorry if somebody will get offended, but I think this article is full of shills and clueless people.

      There's no drama, and TFA is *NOT* a valid reason to bash Debian.

      Looks like somebody wants to release all their rumblings and FUD about Debian and took the chance to do it here..

      • (Score: 2) by neagix on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:48PM

        by neagix (25) on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:48PM (#110241)

        Actually why did this even get through the moderation queue? Where is the news?

        Shall we publish news about each and every bug of Debian before the release? And why not doing giving the same service to other distros? Hopefully they will get some manpower to do more testing and development.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @06:10PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @06:10PM (#110281)

          Are you intentionally trying to be stupid?

          This is obviously more than just about a single bug.

          This is about the sort of bug: an unjustifiable one. Even the most basic testing would have caught this problem right away. You know, like installing wine and trying to run a program with it. You know, the kind of testing that should have been done before this update was ever made public.

          The real news here is about how the Debian project is falling apart before our very eyes. Read the other stories that are linked to later on in the submission. This isn't an isolated incident. There's been the systemd disaster. There's been the talk of killing GNU/kFreeBSD. All of this is turning the Debian project and its community upside down. There's been talk of forking Debian, even!

          Debian's standards are slipping, and they're slipping badly. This is massive news, with far-reaching consequences for thousands upon thousands of people. Millions of people could be affected, if you want to consider everybody who uses a Debian system directly or indirectly.

          This news is perhaps the most important I've seen in days. This is news that will have a real impact.

          • (Score: 2) by neagix on Sunday October 26 2014, @08:20PM

            by neagix (25) on Sunday October 26 2014, @08:20PM (#110316)

            No, I am really this stupid.

            Aside from your sarcasm, I perfectly agree that the most basic test toolsuite should have caught such a bug, but I do not agree on why it is of such big impact, nor why this would be a further proof of Debian bad shape.

            What is the expectation of quality of testing/jessie?

            Personally I would be AOK with the criticism if it were *already* marked stable and this happened, but it's not what has happened.

            I think this story should be discussed with a very critic tone on the Debian development mailing list, and topic could be about enforcing stricter testing rules and/or fix some tools, but not as in here, like: "Look kidz! Debian is rotting!"

            Maybe Debian is in bad shape, I am not here to discuss that, and probably I agree with some of the other reasons why one could and should (constructively) complain. But specifically this one, e.g. a bug close to freeze time, is not valid IMO: Jessie is still in development, it has not been released.

            I was in particular being critic of the mass of comments that were talking like if this had happened on an officially released and distributed stable version, like Wheezy. It ain't happened. No news here, move along.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @06:18PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @06:18PM (#110287)

        Your attitude is what I'd expect from a Microsoft Windows user.

        You're saying, "Yeah, it's a bug. So what. It's totally fine."

        That's not how the Linux community sees things. We have these things called standards. When it comes to software, one of these standards involves doing basic testing. It appears that wasn't done in this case, because if it had been, then this bug would have been discovered immediately, well before the updated package ever went live.

        Your shitty standards have no place in the world of software development. They have no place within the Debian project.

        The Debian project's standards are slipping, and this should definitely be news. This is the most important news I've seen here at SN in days.

  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:49PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @04:49PM (#109985)

    This won't remove Wine from the release. It will stay in Jessie through the freeze, and the bug will be fixed shortly (Bugfixes are allowed into the "testing" release, even while frozen). The deadline is the moment Jessie transitions from "testing" to "stable", which is about 6 months away. Only then would Wine be removed - and only if the bug remained unfixed all that time.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:30PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:30PM (#110014)

      The patch has been there for several days now. So why hasn't it been fixed? It leaves me feeling uncomfortable when a bug like this in a major piece of software (wine is used to run a lot of other apps!) isn't fixed right away. This isn't just wine not working in some small number of obscure cases. It doesn't even start up! That's a big deal!

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by darkfeline on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:07PM

    by darkfeline (1030) on Saturday October 25 2014, @05:07PM (#109991) Homepage

    It sounds like the main wine executable wasn't installed in the right place with the right name. If so, it's not even a bug, just a packaging slip. Careless, sure, but completely harmless and trivial to fix. Grave bug my buttocks.

    To the person complaining about lack of testing, packaging bugs are the most likely to slip through testing. After all, the program itself works fine!

    For the Linux layman, this is like mistyping 'cp wine /usr/bin/wien' instead of 'cp wine /usr/bin/wine' and screaming that the sky is falling.

    --
    Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
  • (Score: 2) by SGT CAPSLOCK on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:07PM

    by SGT CAPSLOCK (118) on Saturday October 25 2014, @07:07PM (#110043) Journal

    How is it even possible to incorrectly pack a package like that?! This one is boggling, man. I've been scouring the mailing lists, reading all the forums, staring at the bug trackers and even perusing the "discussions" on the wikis, but I still can't find an answer that satisfies me. None of this makes any sense.

    ...Unless the Government is involved...

    BTW, does anyone know where I can get some relevant oldschool animated GIF images for my Debian conspiracy blog? Non-GPL plz. I don't trust anything Big Brother uses. And BB uses the GPL, man. GPL GIF images.

    Forgot what I was writing about at this point. Think I'll make some nachos!

    • (Score: 2) by Appalbarry on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:31PM

      by Appalbarry (66) on Saturday October 25 2014, @11:31PM (#110106) Journal

      Mod parent fucking UP! Just about peed myself.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:17AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:17AM (#110125)

        Go home lennart

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:33AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @02:33AM (#110138)

    Silly users!

    /usr/bin/wine is probably a shell, Perl, or Python script. Test to see like this:

    $ file /usr/bin/wine

    It probably calls an executable that is probably in a version-specific directory, just in case the user wants to maintain multiple versions of wine, say, /usr/local/wine-1.23 ... so the binary executable for wine will probably be something like /usr/local/wine-1.23/bin/wine .

    You could invoke that executable directly, and perhaps run it in the background:

    $ /usr/local/wine-1.23/bin/wine &

    ... or you could take a look at that script, and see if you could figure out what was wrong, and fix it:

    $ grep -i wine /usr/bin/wine
    $ more /usr/bin/wine
    $ sudo vi /usr/bin/wine

    ... it's also possible that there's something wrong with the PATH variable, either locally or in the /usr/bin/wine script.

    The following commands will cast some light on that situation:

    $ echo $PATH
    $ which wine
    $ whereis wine

    If you wish to inspect the PATH variable in the [presumed] /usr/bin/wine script, it's as simple as grepping for it:

    $ grep PATH /usr/bin/wine

    If you see a PATH reference to a version that does not exist or a typographical error in the path to the existing version of wine, that may be your problem. Things like this:

    PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/wine-1.22

    ... when you are running version 1.23, or this:

    PATH=$PATH:/usr/locla/wine-1.23

    ... will surely cause problems.

    At the end of the day it is likely to be something simple.

    The satisfaction you get from identifying and fixing small problems like that will hopefully give you a taste of what we love about open source software, and nudge your UNIX administrative skills up a notch, too - away from being a user who clicks on icons and complains when they don't work.

    With a little bit of luck, maybe you'll get started on writing your own scripts, and start programming.

    ~childo

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:02PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 26 2014, @01:02PM (#110226)

      You know, you could have just looked at the patch in the bug report, which would have saved you a lot of speculation and typing.