It sounds almost like a parody of Silicon Valley: two wealthy San Francisco Bay Area tech veterans want San Quentin State Prison inmates to learn basic computer programming as a way to better themselves.
The eventual goal? That a specially selected group of 18 men using refurbished desktops running Ubuntu be employed as Web designers and developers even before they're released -- and then continue beyond prison, competing with coders worldwide. The hope is that given the right skills, recidivism (returning to prison) will decrease.
The curriculum, known as "Code 7370," is a 32-hour a week crash course into HTML, CSS, and JavaScript; and is believed to be the first computer coding class taught inside any prison inside the United States, although this blog (focusing on a facility in Marion, Ohio begs to differ.
More disturbingly, California voters implemented the Joint Venture Program (JVP), a way for companies to set up shop inside a prison, hire inmates, and pay them real-world competitive wages. However, most of these wages are garnished as set up under state law, and the article further describes possible ways that a private company could utilize inmates as employees.
So what do you all think? Altruist education program for rehabilitation, or a slippery-slope into state-sponsored indentured servitude, or anything in between?
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Saturday November 15 2014, @01:57AM
That's all I have to say. Though I'm still deciding if I would rather clean up after someone in India that thinks they learned how to write code in 24 hours or an inmate that thinks they learned how to write code in 24 hours. Quality is probably going to be about the same and so will the communication barrier and disgusting exploitation.
Anyway, this pretty much is outsourcing of a different kind and in a paradox domestic. I guess you could call it indentured servitude. People already do sometimes. It's definitely not altruism. There's no such thing. The wages will definitely not be real world or competitive. It's hard enough for people not in prison to get that.
Also I don't really call client side web development programming. At best these guys will be writing static web pages with JS toys. As far as that goes and ignoring the outsourcing crap I think it's great. The stupidity prisons exhibit with giving inmates computer access needs to stop and it's an excellent opportunity for them to make some cool stuff which is something not easy to do unless they make it from scraps or are a trustee.
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Saturday November 15 2014, @05:15AM
The stupidity prisons exhibit with giving inmates computer access needs to stop and it's an excellent opportunity for them to make some cool stuff which is something not easy to do unless they make it from scraps or are a trustee.
So I see you've given up all pretense of prison as "Corrections" and look at it as strictly a "penal institution".
As long as someone is supervising them, I got no problem with teaching web design to them. Its not programming, but its close enough to give a chance at a paying job.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Saturday November 15 2014, @05:56AM
What part of what I said indicated I see it that way? I said it's stupid that they act like inmates having computers will hurt anything. It's similar to people saying Mitnick could launch a missile with a cellphone. I personally think it's stupid that only trustees get access to tools of any kind even but at least there you could argue that it's easier to use a chisel or saw as a weapon. Not so much a keyboard. And either you don't understand how prisons work (which I'm guessing is the case given your weird interpretation of what I said), are naive or just don't know how the US system works. This isn't going to be a chance at a paying job. They'll be lucky if they make below outsourcing rates before garnishing and in all likelihood the bureaucracy and corrupt asshats that infest these places will normalize the wages to just about the same amount a trustee doing manual labor gets.
and frankly it sounds like you're the one who sees it as a penal institution. Supervising them? They aren't children near frying pans. Most inmates in non-max prisons I'd wager are non-violent offenders like guys who got caught with weed or someone who tried to forge a check. I swear you didn't even read past the first 12 words of my quote. Not only do I not need the "hurr durr it's a correctional facility" lecture. I especially don't need it from you if you aren't even willing to comprehend my full post. Or did you really think I started out by saying that I'm disgusted by how exploited they are as it is and then turn around and say "but nope I hate that they get computers".
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Saturday November 15 2014, @09:13AM
What part of what I said indicated I see it that way?
This part: The stupidity prisons exhibit with giving inmates computer access needs to stop.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Saturday November 15 2014, @05:56PM
Which is also the part where you stopped reading and comprehending as I said. Apparently the same is true for whoever is modding your reading fails insightful.
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Saturday November 15 2014, @09:01PM
So I see you've given up all pretense of prison as "Corrections" and look at it as strictly a "penal institution".
Such a fine-grained continuum of possibilities, ranging from:
The possibilities really do seem to be fairly extensive. Along the lines of corrections, see how you can educate inmates on peer-reviewing each others code without hurt feelings or worse. Tell me that's not a useful skill on the outside.
(Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Saturday November 15 2014, @06:24AM
More likely it'll be the same as when that dumbass thought "hey we can use inmates for free callcenters, they have nothing but time and speak English, score!" and they ended up with a bunch of data thefts, a couple of stalkings and IIRC at least one rape. You see criminals are called that because they actually commit CRIMES, I know, weird huh? But these brainiacs just see dollar signs and think they can Shawshank their asses, forgetting what old Andy ended up doing to the warden.
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Saturday November 15 2014, @06:02PM
I would hope that they wouldn't be giving them any sort of opening to get people's information like with a call center. Seems kind of obvious even with standard jobs. But I did just get finished being irritated at the corruption and stupidity of the prison system so I guess one can never be sure.
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Saturday November 15 2014, @08:49PM
Though I'm still deciding if I would rather clean up after someone in India that thinks they learned how to write code in 24 hours or an inmate that thinks they learned how to write code in 24 hours.
Inmates do their time day by day; however, when learning new non-survival skills, I suspect urgency is not a primary concern.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 16 2014, @05:01AM
I was incarcerated in Belmont prison in St. Clairesville, Ohio a few years ago. They did offer a college course on computer science through Zainesville College.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Saturday November 15 2014, @02:02AM
If a government is representative, special interest influence is low, and the electorate is informed then this could be extremely positive. As government and the electorate fall away from these ideals then the chance for dystopic outcomes increases. Where California actually sits? I'm on the other side of the Pacific (ie. Australia), so I guess that has to be for someone better informed to judge.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Saturday November 15 2014, @05:25AM
From what I read, you have the exact same problems over there. Except your government doesn't even try to pretend you have any rights.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 15 2014, @02:05AM
No garnishing of wages, period. Any sort of percentage will simply get bumped up year after year. This idea pays for itself by lowering recidivism... I'd say less crime is better than money.
~Tilting at windmills~
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday November 15 2014, @02:14AM
Using Ubuntu? Linux?
So how fast and hard will the Microsoft reps be hitting the prisons, convincing them that using Linux will turn the prisoners into pirates!
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1) by Zz9zZ on Saturday November 15 2014, @02:22AM
M$ doesn't give a crap about pirating, I would even say they encouraged it with their own software to get market share. They would just push the enterprise/business angle and offer free/discount licenses for these prisoners.
~Tilting at windmills~
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 16 2014, @11:05AM
About 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software. Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.
Bill Gates in 1998 [archive.today]
(Score: 2) by pixeldyne on Saturday November 15 2014, @03:01AM
Sounds a bit naive. I was also under the impression that American prisons already have work programs. Web development pays very little and unless its enforced through parole systems it will most definitely lead to recidivism. Why code if you already have a good skills set in high value grand theft auto? White collar prisoners likely won't benefit much either.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday November 17 2014, @06:06PM
Web development pays "very little"? I was earning $25/hr doing web development just three years ago. Freelance, without a degree (this was my job while in school). No benefits or anything, slightly crappier than your average software development job (although the freelance and work from home aspects were almost worth it) but it's still a hell of a lot better than minimum wage, and certainly enough to live fairly comfortably.
I wasn't doing it full time though, usually just around 10 hours a week. Might be harder to get a full 40 hours at that wage.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 15 2014, @03:10AM
I'm OK with this, depending on how it is implemented. One of the toughest challenges with the prison system is recidivism; once you are in the system, it is very hard to get out again. I know one guy who I am trying to help put his life back together after having served time in prison. It is not easy. He is finding out the hard way that even after you have served your time, your prison record follows you around after you get out. Basically, any time served in prison becomes a life sentence; employers don't want to hire someone with a record, options for housing become limited, etc. And far too many of these guys once they get out of prison quickly fall back in with the same crowd that got them into the kind of trouble that put them into prison in the first place. One suggestion I would make is that it is very important to have a transition plan for these guys so that they have a path forward after they get out of prison. In particular, this needs to be connected with opportunities for education and jobs for these guys once they get out. Otherwise, it will simply be a program for cheap indentured low-wage slaves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 15 2014, @03:38AM
Sounds a lot like the Postdoc system that many never make it beyond. A select few rise up thanks to it, but the rest end up in their own special kind of indentured servitude. Turtles all the way down.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 15 2014, @10:55AM
Dang! You should warn people (trigger warning?) before you bring that up.
I had a flashback and I almost pissed myself.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday November 15 2014, @03:48AM
That's true. You might explain a one year employment gap but try explaining a five year gap.
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(Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 15 2014, @05:21AM
2009 - 2014: Self-employed contractor. Specialized in Perl, PHP, ASP, $whatever. Carried out $n development contracts, wrote total $m LOCs. Supported databases: MS SQL Server and MySQL; HTTP servers: Apache, IIS. IPv4 and IPv6. Some contracts required $foo and $bar.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday November 15 2014, @11:28AM
I am never employing you.
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(Score: 1) by tftp on Saturday November 15 2014, @06:15PM
I am never employing you.
The stated job history would be pretty accurate for an inmate. One could debate whether he is an independent contractor or not, but that is a minor detail. As matter of technical fact, the applicant would be indeed familiar with claimed technologies, and he will pass any on the spot test for a quick CGI or JS.
This means that you, as an employer, sometimes have no way to check, and sometimes you are legally barred from checking. HR often says "hire or reject based on what you conclude during the interview." Digging into history is a dangerous exercise for many reasons. When I was hiring I never did such a thing.
(Score: 1) by jmorris on Saturday November 15 2014, @03:50AM
One quibble, with this line:
In particular, this needs to be connected with opportunities for education and jobs for these guys once they get out.
No, I don't want too much effort going into 'opportunities for education' after they get out. They just spent years in the joint sitting around and lifting, offer the education opportunities in the prison. Then try to connect the ones who actually applied themselves with jobs all you want, as a society we need to get as many of em into the productive side of civilization as we can.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Horse With Stripes on Saturday November 15 2014, @10:54AM
I'm OK with this, depending on how it is implemented
With prisons moving to a private/for-profit model & JVP meaning "almost free labor" we may see people with certain skill sets be prosecuted more often, and receive longer sentences, in order to provide free "in-sourcing" labor via incarceration. Don't think so? This is America, where corporations have the rights and the government has no limits.
(Score: 2) by pnkwarhall on Saturday November 15 2014, @07:36PM
Interesting idea, but I'm not cynical enough to see this actually happening in the near future.
On the other hand, there was the whole "kids for cash" [wikipedia.org] situation... I still can't believe this happened "in our United States".
Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday November 15 2014, @03:54AM
In principle, I think it is a extremely good idea to improve prison literacy and employment prospects. However, it'll have to be offline and extremely locked down. In practice, it'll be horribly abused with, for example, porn being distributed. However, even that has benefits if it reduces violence and increases motivation.
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(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Saturday November 15 2014, @07:28AM
Hopefully the code those prisoners write will be checked for hidden exploits. And probably they should be kept away from any web page requiring credit card data. I'm sure some of them would like the opportunity to steal even while in prison …
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Saturday November 15 2014, @07:57AM
Movie idea incoming:
A criminal learns to program in prison, starts exploiting and hacking to make billions of dollars, then buys out the private prison he is being held in.
Actually, let's give it a happy Hollywood twist: the criminal reforms in prison, legally plays the stock market making billions, then buys out the private prison he is being held in, buys out all of the private prisons, recruiting fellow reformed criminals and they play Robin Hood and crush the exploitative financial institutions and distribute the money to the poor. Or something.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday November 15 2014, @11:37AM
You should watch Superman 3 [wikipedia.org]. It was ahead of its time.
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday November 15 2014, @11:48AM
That is exactly why it has to be offline and locked down. You cannot give them online manuals or cloud storage. You cannot deploy any of their code and you cannot give them any access to customer data.
You can only give them storage in an offline training network. If that network doubles as an illicit source of entertainment then it has additional benefit. However, it definitely needs to be an airgapped network.
1702845791×2
(Score: 1) by dltaylor on Saturday November 15 2014, @07:49AM
Usd to be that California inmates were processing medical claims, with all of the patients's data in plaintext.
Care to guess how that turned out?
(Score: 1) by CirclesInSand on Saturday November 15 2014, @08:17AM
They are making them learn javascript? Does no one respect the 8th amendment anymore?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 15 2014, @10:17AM
Yeah.. I'd certainly trust them with the security of my website...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 15 2014, @10:57AM
In America: No free health care. No free education.
In American corporately run prison: Free health care. Free education.
(Score: 2) by E_NOENT on Saturday November 15 2014, @11:00AM
Oh goody, more "coders."
Why are we teaching EVERYONE programming? Kids, elderly, now prisoners...Has the world been taken over by some sort of Python-worshipping cult?
If so, shouldn't I at least get a raise out of the deal?
Or maybe this is what a society looks like when it has run out of ideas.
I'm not in the business... I *am* the business.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday November 15 2014, @04:37PM
Well, that's an interesting update on the old, "why should we teach Christians to read the Bible?" Argument. ANSWER: Because more knowledge is good.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by E_NOENT on Saturday November 15 2014, @08:51PM
Agreed, but it's interesting that programming seems to be the cure-all for everyone's ills. It's become something of a panacea.
I'm not in the business... I *am* the business.
(Score: 2) by Jerry Smith on Sunday November 16 2014, @08:21AM
If everybody can code, the wages will go down. US has to become to cheap that outsourcing will become a thing of the past.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday November 15 2014, @11:29AM
Work programs and privatization in American prisons gives incentives to falsify charges and over-incarcerate. If you have a prison population capable of employment then the question you should ask is why are they in prison in the first place. Not how to make money off of them.
compiling...
(Score: 1) by tftp on Sunday November 16 2014, @01:45AM
If you have a prison population capable of employment then the question you should ask is why are they in prison in the first place.
It's a strange question. They are in prison because instead of earning $30K by working for a year and paying taxes they decided to spend an hour, rob a house, steal goods for $30K, and fence them for tax-free cash - and failed to get away with it.
Pretty much everyone, aside from people with severe disabilities, is capable of employment of some sort. The test here is simple: is the employment worth it? Obviously, millions of people answer that question in the negative. Employment that is open for them is not particularly exciting, and it pays poorly, like agricultural work that is done today by visiting Mexicans. Better employment is not open to them simply because the open positions are few; it doesn't even matter if you are a university graduate or someone who spent two days reading a textbook.
One big difference, though, is that convicts have proven that they are capable of actions that go against the moral norms of the society. How much would one trust a thief? Why would one even want to trust a thief if there are 100 other candidates standing in line, who never saw the inside of a prison? However sad it might be, it is a fact that incarceration moves the person into the bottom of the stack. The usual advice for an unemployable convict is to start his own business. It might work well, but it requires certain management qualities that the person may not have. If he has those, he is OK now. I never wanted to ask a plumber, or an electrician, or a construction contractor, if they were ever convicted. They are given a specific task, and they are paid upon satisfactory completion. I'd never hire a Web designer, of course, but that's only because I can do this myself, well enough for my needs. Someone else could easily hire "John Smith Web Designs, Inc." to make a Web site and pay upon completion. The customer would never even need to meet with the contractor. At most, the customer would want to see references - and they only reflect quality of work.
(Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Saturday November 15 2014, @12:45PM
30 comments and not a single knob gag? I'm disappointed in all of you.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 2) by Subsentient on Saturday November 15 2014, @01:11PM
Penal coding: when you code by typing with your penis.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Saturday November 15 2014, @01:49PM
This topic is far too serious for cheap jokes. Anyone with programming ability and a network connection is at risk of being maliciously labelled as a hacker and falsely imprisoned. That risk may be small but it is foreseeable. Unfortunately, geeky introverts who are least suited to prison may be the least understood by judges. So, the chance of being imprisoned may be proportional to trauma that it may incur. So, unfortunately, there's a hint of self-interest when even the most honest geek considers access to technology in prison. So, it would be greatly appreciated if people skip the penis/penal, soap/SOAP, Windows/walls jokes because this doesn't help anyone's case.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 15 2014, @06:06PM
How about files?
(Score: 1) by linuxrocks123 on Sunday November 16 2014, @08:48AM
Right. Like Hans Reiser!
Seriously... everyone is at some risk of being falsely convicted and going to prison, but, well, I think most "geeks" (when used in the way you used it, it's more a stereotype than anything, so, air quotes) are smart enough to not talk to the cops, even if they're innocent, and to hire a competent defense attorney and follow expert advice. (Note that Hans Reiser was not smart enough to follow his attorney's advice...) If anything, "geeks" are less likely to suffer false imprisonment than most.
So, no, the jokes aren't not being made because of "self interest", the jokes aren't being made because this site is -- for now at least -- less clownish than Slashdot, and because it is commonly believed by liberals and libertarians (and some others) that many people in prison in the US don't deserve to be there and that the court system is rigged against the poor and minorities. Systematic oppression of the societally disadvantaged just isn't funny.
---linuxrocks123
(Score: 2) by Subsentient on Saturday November 15 2014, @01:10PM
Not sure this is wise. Criminals taught how to code. Don't teach them anything low-level. For the majority it'd probably be ok, but I can see some new fake boner pill sites popping up from this, along with some ransomware.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." -Jiddu Krishnamurti
(Score: 2) by fadrian on Saturday November 15 2014, @04:39PM
You can either outsource your prison slavery to China or cut out the middleman and do it yourself. I see which direction the tech titans want to take us.
That is all.
(Score: 2) by PizzaRollPlinkett on Saturday November 15 2014, @08:38PM
I guess if coders can become hackers and commit crimes, then criminals can become coders.
(E-mail me if you want a pizza roll!)