Devuan and I got off to a bad start. The first link I clicked to their site was flagged by Firefox as possibly malicious. Continuing to their home page brought me to what would have been considered campy even in the 90s. I suspected a scam, or at least rank amateurism, and figured a short life for the project.
They recently released an "update on the progress of the Devuan.org," and I took a second look, especially at their finances.
The finances of the Devuan project are administered by the Dyne.org foundation, an international organization based in Amsterdam.
Dyne.org commits to financial transparency and will publish financial reports for this project, keeping them updated every year.
Their current financial report for 2014 is available as a pdf download.
Surprisingly, with all the anti-systemd trolling out there that they could cash in on, they're instead taking the high road.
We must not become acquainted to the fact that systemd discussions are swarmed by trolls fostering aggressive behaviour and personalized attacks of sorts. With the Devuan project and its early Debianfork declaration we did our best to avoid such dynamics, to bring forward a constructive discussion and action plan to respond to the systemd avalanche with technical analyses and solutions.
We kindly ask the community gathering around Devuan to take us seriously on this and avoid aggressive behaviour. Everyone should use extra attention when engaging criticism and in any case avoid any personalization, but stick to facts.
Their open professionalism is impressive. We could be seeing the birth of the next major player in Linux.
(Score: 2) by SuperCharlie on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:11AM
They may have good things behind the scenes.. but their website and general image is somewhere between a Harley Davidson site and a creepy stalker page.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:16AM
Stick to facts, like systemd is an anti-POSIX regression which resembles Windows or Android, more than the school of operating system architecture which has endured for nearly 50 years, as other approaches rise and fall.
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:55AM
They may have good things behind the scenes.. but their website and general image is somewhere between a Harley Davidson site and a creepy stalker page.
If you support the ideas behind the efforts of these folks, why don't you redesign their web presence for them?
Or if you don't have that skill set, perhaps you consider reticence rather than bitch about these folks lacking skills you yourself don't possess.
Personally, I'm more interested in *what* these folks have to say, rather than how much time, money and effort they put into the design of their web presence -- resources which are much needed to get, you know, an actual product, out the door.
Or, If you don't support their efforts, why are you trolling? Just sayin'.
That said, it seems to me that the Devuan effort is an excellent idea, and I hope it's quite successful.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday December 24 2014, @05:21AM
The only thing "crappier" than their website is ours. Some people just can't seem to handle a website designed to impart information instead of being an entertainment experience.
From all of the scandalous talk at the top I thought it was going to be really bad. It could be better, but I appreciate that they just put out a simple landing page and reserved their efforts for actual coding and working with the packages.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by sce7mjm on Wednesday December 24 2014, @09:20AM
Indeed I don't do a lot of website design but some hosting...
When I get asked to design or build a site on the cheap, before all the fancy features they want creep in, I make them read this: http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ [motherfuckingwebsite.com] Probably not safe for work...
I either saw it linked on soylentnews or slashdot but it sums up a lot of my feelings.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @12:25PM
Fabrice Bellard's Home Page [bellard.org]
In case you don't know who Bellard is, he is a very famous computer programmer who has made seminal important contributions to the world of computing.
At his homepage, you will also see a link titled "Best Viewed With Any Browser"; click on it and go to that site, it's a very informative read which goes into much technical detail about important web design concepts which help to keep the internet free open and accessible to everyone, irrespective of current trends and fashions.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Arik on Wednesday December 24 2014, @10:25AM
Hopefully they would have the sense to say 'no' if he offers. Their web page is fine. Hipster douches that think web-pages are so 90s and want to lock everything back up in webapps are part of the problem, not the solution.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Wednesday December 24 2014, @01:01PM
"But but but webapps are so easy! Wordpress and Bootstrap turned me into a web developer! Yay!"
Give me Geany or Notepad++ and an FTP client and I can build a responsive and functional website in a couple of hours. And I'm about as far from "web developer" as it gets; I'm a hardware guy.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday December 24 2014, @03:05AM
So they spent their time making good code and not a stylish website? good for every relevant person ;)
(Score: 2, Interesting) by HiThere on Wednesday December 24 2014, @03:30AM
Not really. A good impression is a good impression, and that's worthwhile. OTOH, I haven't visited the site recently, so I can't comment on what it actually *is* like. Some people aren't satisfied unless there is lots of flash, bells, and whistles, but I *prefer* sites that run in basic HTML, i.e. without JavaScript, flash, animated gifs, etc. So this may merely be a matter of taste. (And as for those pages with white text on a dark background...shudder.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday December 24 2014, @03:47AM
Perhaps the problem is people that determine first impression on the wrong parameters. There's a lot of such people though.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday December 24 2014, @06:13AM
Maybe they form their first impression using the only parameters provided?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday December 24 2014, @06:33AM
Maybe they should then conclude they lack enough data to draw any qualitative conclusion?
(I know it's inhuman to demand this of many, but it's in many cases the correct conclusion)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @07:20AM
It seemeth that thou art suggesting that a headline - nay, e'en a summary - mayst be insufficient to fully inform one. Blasphemy!
Indeed, thou implieth that one shouldst read TFA! Art thou fevered? Doth thou not know where thou art? Heretic! Putting thee to the torch would be too good for thee ...
(Score: 2) by hash14 on Wednesday December 24 2014, @08:48PM
Fair enough if that's what you want to do, but I don't think that's really putting the necessary amount of effort into forming a valid opinion.
If I'm going to judge a Linux distro, I'm going to watch some screencasts on youtube, read some reviews, and see if I can find anyone comparing it to my distro of choice.
I understand that distros need users to survive, but if people are going to judge the quality of Devuan based on its website rather than the content of what it provides, then I really do not lament the website filtering the crap out, so to speak. Those types would probably be more happy using something like Mint or Ubuntu anyways.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @01:04PM
Wrong parameters? Basing a first impression on how an organization presents themselves is using the correct parameters. I'm not aware of any printed materials or videos, so their website is it. If an organization is trying to attract interest, new members & volunteers, and donations, they should make the effort to present themselves in a way that is easy to approach, read and understand. The devuan.org website does not make that effort.
I'm not saying it should be one of those Wordpressy, parallax congested pukefests that have been littering up the web recently. Nor should it be a Geocities throwback of tables and frames. But it should have some level of order & organization, some segregation of content, and some navigation.
I want Devuan to succeed. I really do. I am a Debian user who is against the "shove systemd down your throat" movement. I sent an email offering to redo the Devuan website for free with free hosting, but I never heard back from them. I even wanted to donate $ but stopped when I got the "malicious website" warning. I wrote them about that, too, but never heard back. They are probably very busy, but too busy to ignore offers of free labor and/or donations? Even if it's just to say "no thanks, we love our site" or "here's the PayPal link"?
If the first impressions you give are "you must make an effort just to learn about us" and "don't bother asking questions because we don't return emails" then that is how people will interpret who you are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @12:24PM
> And as for those pages with white text on a dark background...shudder.)
Like Devuan, you mean?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @05:04AM
Site looks fine. Not sure what your issue is.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday December 24 2014, @05:22AM
somewhere between a Harley Davidson site and a creepy stalker page.
That is just where I like my persons of the relevant gender.
And if you have not, perchance, it is a good idea to check out the GNU websites, just as an exercise in what webpages are for and ought to do. Sort of, before the deluge, before flash, and before systemd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @07:11AM
"Sort of, before the deluge, before flash, and before systemd."
Fuck systemd.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NickFortune on Wednesday December 24 2014, @06:01AM
Hmmm ... so they're spending their time and resources on coding and debugging rather than making a slick home page for a distro that is still in its earliest stages?
Sounds to me like they've got their priorities right.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Wednesday December 24 2014, @06:29AM
I know a few people say they like the simplicity and I agree with them. I also agree with the parent that it looks a little odd.
With that said, I couldn't help but decide to share this little gem for those who haven't seen it before: www.motherfuckingwebsite.com [motherfuckingwebsite.com]. The website has only text, no pictures, is safe for work (except for the language, obviously), and it seemed relevant to the discussion.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Arik on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:45PM
That's a damn fine website btw.
Accessible, responsive, and insightful.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by meisterister on Wednesday December 24 2014, @04:55PM
The only thing I would change is to make the text a bit smaller. The site looks really cramped, even on a big/high pixel count monitor. The thing is, you know they're doing something right when I have to nitpick to that level in order to find fault in something.
(May or may not have been) Posted from my K6-2, Athlon XP, or Pentium I/II/III.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @07:22AM
I prefer pages that look like that, they're not the product of hipster web designers which bodes well for a project as it does not associate itself with that clientele.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday December 24 2014, @01:30PM
I have bad news for you. Apparently, devuan upstream project name is a childish addition of the distro creator's and his gf's name.
Deb+Ian.
I am sure you are not putting up with this, and that you will leave ASAP for more professional looking places where the names have some Corp. or Inc. and smiling persons in business suits stock photos in the website. We will miss you.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by fnj on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:21AM
Aggression? That's not a knoife. THIS is a knoife!
(Score: 2) by fnj on Saturday December 27 2014, @11:51PM
Zealous moderators with no wits are so amusing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:35AM
Good, though honestly it is the systemd proponents that should have had to fork. This to then build a parallel distro around systemd that others can opt to use if they so wanted. Then we let survival of the fittest work out the rest.
Seems to work damn fine at the kernel level, where new subsystems are developed and maintained alongside the main kernel code (sometimes for years) while the kinks etc are worked out.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday December 24 2014, @03:07AM
If the Devuan project can grab their resources. That would be the effective operation. ;)
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:03PM
Yes, systemd should have been a possibly default option, but completely removable for a systemd-less installation (which has plenty of use cases from low ram, old kernel desktop to zillion of server deployment scenarios) and all the forced dependencies on systemd upstream should have been transformed, slowly since dev resources are always scarce, into package-common + package-systemd and package-sysvinit or -runit or -openrc.
What's wrong with what I just said? it's not feasible because systemd has, by design, the same role as a distribution. That's not a bad thing for a lot of people. I happen not to be among those, and I think most people interested in a degree of control on their infrastructure should at least consider devuan and other very interesting systemdless distros as a backup.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Pav on Wednesday December 24 2014, @02:39PM
The sysvinit package (and upstream) maintainer chimed in on this - it was on IRC... I don't have transcripts unfortunately. He said he had been very supportive of systemd as an alternative in the early days, even going as far as doing a lot of extra work to make their lives easier. On the other hand they never reciprocated... even seemingly trivial changes (to make coexistence possible) have been flatly rejected by the systemd people. Of course this is his story, though he wasn't shouting it at the sky - it just came out when others asked him about how the situation evolved.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by jmorris on Wednesday December 24 2014, @05:09PM
I'd believe it because I have read Pottering's writings. He isn't exactly hiding his plans. It ain't about the init. He sees no point in trying to work with others since the plan is to eliminate them, to eliminate the possibility of competing software. He is already dreaming of essentially ending the package manager wars by banishing package management to a tool used to build a distro but something an end user would never see. Everything will be controlled by Pottering OS.
Which I have no problem with, and I doubt many others in the 'oh hell no' camp do either. He should chase his dream and as long as RedHat is willing to bet the company on it he should take them and as many of their customers along for the ride as will go. Where I object is the POS camp's Highlander attitude of 'there can be only one' where the existance of a traditional UNIX style OS atop the Linux kernel is an affront to them and they must attack. If they would abandon the 'all knees must bend to me' mindset there would be no friction in the Open Source world over this issue.
(Score: 2) by hash14 on Wednesday December 24 2014, @08:54PM
I agree with your points, but what keeps me worried is the fact is that if they were able to take over Debian for their evil plans, then they can probably do the same to the Linux kernel too. Linus doesn't seem to have much of a problem with what the systemd camp is doing, so we can't really depend on him or any of the other kernel lead devs taking a stand in principle for the freedom of user choice. They've never really seen things that way, to be honest. So today, we can fork udev and create our own init systems, but what if someday, the Linux kernel itself is completely tied into systemd the same way that systemd is tied to Linux?
Yes, there's always BSD, but from a technical perspective, Linux really is an awesome product and it would suck to see it go the way of Debian.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday December 24 2014, @11:24PM
This is going to be a real world test of the assertion that free software can't be owned.
People will either be able to maintain a kernel with well defined interfaces on which they can build their systems, or we will need to rethink categories in the era of commercial interests leveraging FOSS: proprietary software, Free software, and Really Free software, which obeys both the letter and the spirit of free software.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by Yog-Yogguth on Thursday December 25 2014, @09:21AM
One can fork the Linux kernel too... although I don't think it will be needed any time soon.
Bite harder Ouroboros, bite! tails.boum.org/ linux USB CD secure desktop IRC *crypt tor (not endorsements (XKeyScore))
(Score: 2) by hash14 on Thursday December 25 2014, @02:16PM
Understood that the kernel can be forked, but I think that's a much more serious undertaking. I don't think it would be necessary for a while either, but again, if Debian could go down, why not Linux?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by kaszz on Wednesday December 24 2014, @03:03AM
"their home page brought me to what would have been considered campy even in the 90s. I suspected a scam, or at least rank amateurism, and figured a short life for the project."
The point of a website is to bring information. Not to impress hipsters thats more about style than content. An analytic mind can figure out the important stuff without style stuff to pampering the aesthetic side.
(Score: 2) by E_NOENT on Wednesday December 24 2014, @10:46AM
The point of a website is to bring information. Not to impress hipsters thats more about style than content. An analytic mind can figure out the important stuff without style stuff to pampering the aesthetic side.
Hear, hear!
Also (and it's easy to miss) the site is actually a twitter bootstrap template they just grabbed off the shelf and populated with content. They could have probably chosen a more "corporate" looking template, but I guess there's no accounting for taste.
The point being, the site's appearance is the result of some FLOSS graphic designer's aesthetics, not the Devuan devs so much.
I'm not in the business... I *am* the business.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 24 2014, @04:55PM
"Designers and creatives: please contribute artworks!" on the main page.
So whatever, could have been a story of returning technical development back to a root of simply exchanging information.... But I'm sure they'll screw it up with corporatism soon enough.