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posted by n1 on Monday March 09 2015, @04:55PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the fighting-crime dept.

AP reports that Ryan Pate, a helicopter mechanic, took to Facebook while in Florida after a dispute over sick leave with his company and when he returned to Abu Dhabi last month, he was told to report to the police station, where he was arrested for breaking a United Arab Emirates law on slandering his employer. Pate was shown screenshots of the Facebook message and told his employer had filed charges accusing him of breaking wide-ranging Emirates laws that ban slander. The laws were introduced in late 2012 and make it an offense to use the net to mock or deride organizations and individuals. Pate spent about 10 days in jail and is now free on bail awaiting a March 17 trial. His supporters say he faces up to five years in prison and a steep fine if convicted. "I just couldn't register it in my head because as an American growing up in the United States, the First Amendment right is just ingrained in my brain," says Pate. "I never even entertained the fact that I would wind up in prison out here for something I put on Facebook in the United States."

Pate's congressman, Rep. David Jolly, intervened on his constituent's behalf, lobbying the State Department and Emirates officials for help. In a letter to the Emirati attorney general, Jolly emphasized respect for the sovereignty of the country, but argued because the posts occurred while Pate was on American soil, those laws shouldn't apply. "It is deeply troubling that Mr. Pate now faces judicial proceedings over an action that was done legally in his home country," says Jolly. Speaking via phone from his apartment in Abu Dhabi, Pate was remorseful. “I just want to apologize to everybody I dragged into this,” he said. “It is embarrassing, and I never meant for this to happen. I let my emotions get the better of me.”

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  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Monday March 09 2015, @05:02PM

    by VLM (445) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:02PM (#154976)

    because the posts occurred while Pate was on American soil, those laws shouldn't apply.

    Oh bad, bad idea. The rest of the world is not amused at the American idea that all our laws apply to every square inch of the planet whenever they screw over a foreigner. Something tells me that poor bastard contributed money to the "other guys" during the congressmen's most recent election campaign and the congressman knows it.

    There is the general principle that any time you have anything to do with either facebook or the middle east or even worse, both at the same time, you're screwed, but still...

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by ikanreed on Monday March 09 2015, @05:15PM

      by ikanreed (3164) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:15PM (#154985) Journal

      Yeah, but on the other hand: Fuck the UAE if they can't respect the idea of each state defining its own citizens' rights, and citizens only having to change if they move. The US has every reason to assert its citizens' rights not being violable just because they travel.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @07:54PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @07:54PM (#155658)

        The US has every reason to assert its citizens' rights not being violable just because they travel.

        Sooo, if a Saudi traveled to the USA in 2012 and beat his wife while there, that would be OK since it was legal in Saudi at the time?

        • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday March 10 2015, @08:55PM

          by ikanreed (3164) on Tuesday March 10 2015, @08:55PM (#155682) Journal

          This is the exact opposite of the situation, you incurable dumbass.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by nitehawk214 on Monday March 09 2015, @06:36PM

      by nitehawk214 (1304) on Monday March 09 2015, @06:36PM (#155026)

      But it is ok for UAE laws to apply to every square inch of the planet?

      --
      "Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
      • (Score: 2) by VLM on Monday March 09 2015, @07:03PM

        by VLM (445) on Monday March 09 2015, @07:03PM (#155035)

        Yeah thats my point exactly, I'm not sure how to poke them and piss them off more than by having the USA of all people claim laws end at national borders.

        Seriously, like that congressdude is trying to get the poor bastard the death penalty not just prison. Gotta be more to the story, like either the congressdude is clinically diagnosed as cognitively disabled or the poor bastard donated money to the wrong political team. Not necessarily exclusive of each other of course.

        • (Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Monday March 09 2015, @07:39PM

          by nitehawk214 (1304) on Monday March 09 2015, @07:39PM (#155050)

          Yeah, I think this is the great problem. Each country has laws that are hilariously restrictive when compared to one another.

          It seems like what we end up with is being held to the most restrictive of each law. The real problem is in this case the law in question is a clear human rights violation. Yes, the US does it too, but in this case the UAE are clearly in the wrong on the grand scheme of things.

          --
          "Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:16PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:16PM (#155041)

        Huh? They didn't and don't apply to every square inch of the planet - they apply to UAE. So when he stepped back into UAE he got arrested. This is normal.

        Whereas US laws somehow applied in NZ to Kim dotcom ( http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/campbelllive/video-what-really-happened-in-the-dotcom-raid-2012080816 [3news.co.nz] ) and Maldives to some Russian hacker: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/14/07/08/1331204/us-arrests-son-of-russian-mp-in-maldives-for-hacking [slashdot.org]
        And there's this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident [wikipedia.org]
        And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition [wikipedia.org] (ok this might be considered black-ops stuff so not count?)
        In theory those countries don't have to roll-over for the USA but fact is they did. I'm sure you or others can find other examples.

        In summary: if you disagree with UAE's laws and might possibly have broken them, the solution/workaround is simple - never ever enter UAE territory (that includes the UAE embassies in other countries). But if you disagree with US laws and might possibly have broken them, you could get screwed even if you stay outside the USA and never walk into a US embassy.

        See the difference?

        You could try to use this as a counter example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd.#Details [wikipedia.org]
        But see: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023-978176.html [cnet.com]

        after much wrangling among attorneys over the definition of the word "willful," the judge told jurors that in order to find the company guilty, they must agree that company representatives knew their actions were illegal and intended to violate the law. Merely offering a product that could violate copyrights was not enough to warrant a conviction, the jury instructions said.

        So if the jury thought they wilfully violated US law, Skylarov could have been jailed. Thus the US law/legal stuff is still applying, it just happened to find them not guilty of wilful infringement AND more importantly he still got arrested in the first place.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Monday March 09 2015, @05:02PM

    by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:02PM (#154977) Journal

    Look for this to be new normal, by 2020.

    He won't even have to return to Emirates for apprehension - the local crew will be obliged to help.

    --
    You're betting on the pantomime horse...
    • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday March 09 2015, @10:45PM

      by kaszz (4211) on Monday March 09 2015, @10:45PM (#155142) Journal

      UAE will join the TPP member club?

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Monday March 09 2015, @10:53PM

        by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Monday March 09 2015, @10:53PM (#155151) Journal

        Don't be obtuse.

        Sovereign jurisdiction will be abdicated and barrier to prosecutions will sink to lowest denominator, with an explosion of unintended consequences.

        --
        You're betting on the pantomime horse...
        • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday March 09 2015, @11:32PM

          by kaszz (4211) on Monday March 09 2015, @11:32PM (#155172) Journal

          Guess western people will be extradited on blasphemy laws in other TPP countries..
          (and other bullshit)

          • (Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Monday March 09 2015, @11:57PM

            by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Monday March 09 2015, @11:57PM (#155183) Journal

            Hey, that's just business.

            --
            You're betting on the pantomime horse...
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:47AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:47AM (#155232)

            If the many Dominionists working in the US government have their way, the US will be the one arresting people for blasphemy.

            Similarly, except this kind of shit - being arrested for talking bad about the corporate overlords - to become the standard in the neo-feudalist US awaiting us in the near future.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by isostatic on Monday March 09 2015, @05:03PM

    by isostatic (365) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:03PM (#154978) Journal

    This is a country that locks women up for being raped [bbc.co.uk], locks people up for standing on a cigarette butt [sky.com], locks people up for eating a bread roll in the UK [bbc.co.uk].

    If you go to the UAE, you deserve everything you get.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by TheGratefulNet on Monday March 09 2015, @05:07PM

      by TheGratefulNet (659) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:07PM (#154981)

      I pretty much agree. I would not be caught dead (...) in any arab country or territory. I won't fly over them or go near them. its not worth it and they don't have anything close to western rights and freedoms (even though our own are quickly eroding, we still are nowhere near as backwards as they are).

      yes, backwards. with absolutism, not relativism. a doomed society that is living only on borrowed time.

      there's an old saying, you lie down with pigs and you get dirty. if you choose to do business with companies that require you to enter middle eastern moslem countries, you should know that you are living a very risky lifestyle. no one is forcing anyone to take jobs over there. if you accept such a position and you run into trouble, its your own damned fault for being greedy (which is the only reason any westerener would ever take a job there anyway).

      you think you can 'play' them and not worry about the down-side? take their money but cry when they force their laws on you?

      your own fault for going there, period. I feel no sympathy for those that OPT to go there.

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @08:03PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @08:03PM (#155057)

        Dubai is one of the major air travel hubs nowadays.

        This arrest could be due to something more "personal" (e.g. he offended someone high up). Otherwise if the UAE is having a change of policy/heart on enforcement, many air-travellers would want to know (and try to avoid Dubai and UAE), since they probably have broken UAE laws too.

        Or the next time they fly one of the UAE airlines and say it sucks and others should avoid it, they might get in trouble too.

        • (Score: 2) by CRCulver on Monday March 09 2015, @09:03PM

          by CRCulver (4390) on Monday March 09 2015, @09:03PM (#155077) Homepage
          Transit passengers in Dubai or Sharjah airports typically don't have run-ins with the UAE state unless they go through passport control. That's where the infamously uptight customs searches happen, and the guy described in the article had left the airport and spent some time in the country. If one is just changing planes in those airports, going from gate to gate with perhaps a meal at a airport restaurant in between, one has little to worry about.
          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Nobuddy on Monday March 09 2015, @09:37PM

            by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday March 09 2015, @09:37PM (#155086)

            I have to assume you have never travelled to UAE.
            Their passport clearance and customs are some of the easiest and most reasonable I have ever gone through. The US is far far far far far far far far---fucking FAR worse than UAE.

            far.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @10:45PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @10:45PM (#155139)

              Jailing someone for four years because they found three poppy seeds on his shirt is far^n more reasonable than the US. What does the TSA lock people up for life if they have heard of poppy seeds?

            • (Score: 2) by CRCulver on Monday March 09 2015, @11:27PM

              by CRCulver (4390) on Monday March 09 2015, @11:27PM (#155170) Homepage
              I have traveled to the UAE and my passage through passport control has always been smooth, and much more pleasant than entering the United States. However, my point remains that transit passengers shouldn't be scared by horror stories that happened at the passport control/customs stage or well after it somewhere inside the country..
            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Tuesday March 10 2015, @12:43AM

              by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday March 10 2015, @12:43AM (#155201)

              Well sure, why wouldn't they be? Nobody is trying to suicide bomb THEM.

              --
              "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
              • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:51AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:51AM (#155233)

                Nobody is trying to suicide bomb the US or TSA either. Maybe a nutjob every couple years tries it, but that's it, its nothing outside of an extremely rare and unusual occurrence.

                • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 12 2015, @08:17PM

                  by tangomargarine (667) on Thursday March 12 2015, @08:17PM (#156879)

                  Maybe no one *currently.* I don't think it's much of a stretch to call 9/11 a concerted suicide bombing attempt. Planes explode when they hit buildings. Or start on fire. Or something.

                  --
                  "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by kaszz on Monday March 09 2015, @11:29PM

          by kaszz (4211) on Monday March 09 2015, @11:29PM (#155171) Journal

          Dubai is one of the major air travel hubs nowadays.

          It's probably time to put an end to that and route air traffic to through countries that won't harass passengers.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:10PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:10PM (#154983)

      Whitehouse.gov [whitehouse.gov]

      In their meeting today at the White House, President Obama and the UAE's Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan reaffirmed their commitment to the strong partnership and friendship between their two countries.

      [...] The two leaders highlighted the expanding ties between the United States and the UAE, reflecting common strategic interests. The Crown Prince thanked President Obama for the United States’ leadership in the region, including the President’s efforts to advance peace, security, and opportunity in the Middle East.

      The President and Crown Prince pledged to sustain the expanding economic ties between the United States and the UAE, noting that the UAE remains the United States’ largest export market in the Middle East and a significant investor in the United States. The President commended the UAE for hosting the successful Global Entrepreneurship Summit in Dubai last December, and both leaders highlighted the importance of fostering broad-based economic opportunity in the region, particularly for young people. They also discussed the relationships the UAE is building with leading U.S. institutions, including in education, health care, and the arts.

      April 16th 2013

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:21PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:21PM (#154989)

        The implied question in your post is whether or not engagement is better than isolation.
        And then the next question is, by what measure?

        I come down firmly on the side of engagement - political change always follows a change in mindset. You can't expect a backwards country to embrace modern ideas if you also minimize their exposure to those ideas. It is important to make sure that "cultural colonization" doesn't fall by the wayside like it usually does when big money is involved.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:36PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:36PM (#154996)

          I agree with your conclusion. My main point was actually to say that sometimes we don't choose our engagements with places like the UAE. Our western paymasters decide for us when there is clearly money to be made.

          The way that press release reads to me is that we should be thankful for what the UAE does for us, with all their money buying our exports and investing in our country, they are trying to reform the US, not the west trying to reform the UAE. Thats what I take away from it.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:42PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:42PM (#155006)

            I didn't read it that way at all. The US economy is a behemoth compared to any other individual country, much less one as small as the UAE, such that any praise of the UAE is basically throwing them a bone. When you are the 800lb gorilla, you can afford to be exceptionally magnanimous.

            • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @06:02PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @06:02PM (#155017)

              It's not that the UAE is a large country or wealthy by US standards, it's about having as many 'friends' as possible in the region, those who are compliant with western interests. UAE, like Saudi Arabia are our allies in that region, that (for UAE) is valuable beyond what their own economy actually involves . It's a friendly gateway into the region as a whole to develop our economic resources, and pressure/lobby other less friendly governments through these middle-men. There is no rush to change the social/political situation compared to the economic one because social and political reform could lead to the wrong people being elected.

          • (Score: 4, Informative) by TheGratefulNet on Monday March 09 2015, @05:52PM

            by TheGratefulNet (659) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:52PM (#155010)

            I would quit a job before being compelled or forced to travel to a country like that.

            if a company is forcing you to travel there, leave that company. you are literally risking your life doing this.

            --
            "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by isostatic on Monday March 09 2015, @05:59PM

              by isostatic (365) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:59PM (#155014) Journal

              According to the paperwork, I do risk my life for work, but that's because I consider the ends worthwhile. Many of my collegues risk far more than me, one got hit by shrapnel in Syria a few months ago, and other was pinned down in a firefight, I've had colleges who have been kidnapped, and sady sometimes people die.

              On the other hand my company never forces me to go to these places.

              However is far rather go to the gaza/Israel border during a war, or go to erbil or kabul, than go to Dubai. I treat Dubai just like any other hostile country. Although if you smugle a bottle of whisky into Pakistan you'll get a slap on the wrist, not the death penalty.

              • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday March 09 2015, @06:06PM

                by bob_super (1357) on Monday March 09 2015, @06:06PM (#155020)

                > Many of my collegues risk far more than me, one got hit by shrapnel in Syria a few months ago,
                > and other was pinned down in a firefight, I've had colleges who have been kidnapped, and sady sometimes people die.

                Don't worry, the ones still alive will be sought after, to fill empty chairs on opinion/news shows.

              • (Score: 2) by M. Baranczak on Monday March 09 2015, @07:24PM

                by M. Baranczak (1673) on Monday March 09 2015, @07:24PM (#155046)

                What's your job?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @08:29PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @08:29PM (#155066)

                Although if you smugle a bottle of whisky into Pakistan you'll get a slap on the wrist

                With the sharp edge of a machete/sword/axe?

              • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday March 09 2015, @11:26PM

                by kaszz (4211) on Monday March 09 2015, @11:26PM (#155168) Journal

                Alcohol isn't the issue. It's the obsession about drugs. So slap on the wrist with alcohol, but what about drugs? (like heroin etc)

            • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:20PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:20PM (#155044)

              I would quit a job before being compelled or forced to travel to a country like that.

              if a company is forcing you to travel there, leave that company. you are literally risking your life doing this.

              It is so weird you just randomly decided to tell us that.
              Plus, its pretty much false.
              The UAE has executed only 2 people in the last 5 years, one for murder [arabnews.com] and the other for raping and murdering a 4-year old. [thenational.ae]

              Dubai is actually a very popular tourist destination, [dubaitourism.ae] with roughly 10 million visitors each year, over two thirds of which come from outside the middle-east.

              I'm not saying its a great place, much of it is built and run using modern slavery, [vice.com] I'm just saying your characterization is over the top.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by TheGratefulNet on Monday March 09 2015, @10:42PM

                by TheGratefulNet (659) on Monday March 09 2015, @10:42PM (#155133)

                its not over the top. I could not disagree more with the attitude, morals and methods of the moslem-based countries. if anything went wrong, I would NOT want to have to dig myself out. no way in hell would I even put myself in such a position as to have to even think about such things.

                why? why go there! its not like there are things there that I need or can't live without.

                life is short enough and there are so many things to do in this world, going to an arab country (even to transit thru) is at the very bottom of my list.

                (and I'm quite sure many of the folks from that region feel exactly the same about my country. and that's just fine with me, too.)

                --
                "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by TheGratefulNet on Monday March 09 2015, @09:07PM

          by TheGratefulNet (659) on Monday March 09 2015, @09:07PM (#155078)

          I take the opposite view. shun them, ignore them, refuse to do business with them. isolate them.

          the arab style of life and western style of life really don't share that much commonality, other than on the surface. you are not going to win anyone over in that region, not in this century, at least.

          shun them. they want to stay bronze-age, they can go it alone and without my help.

          --
          "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:13PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:13PM (#155408)

        These are poor and uneducated people. The profound way that the local (and global) economic elite tries to make sure that they stay this way can be disgusting. I read on a comment further up that "if you go to the UAE, you deserve whatever happens to you"- well, the local lords demand western goodies, but lack the knowledge to acquire it. What they do NOT, however, lack, is all this wealth that they have accumulated at the expense of the local people. Now, with knowledge comes power, so instead of educating their own 'subjects' to become engineers and whatnot, they prefer to wall-up a 'western pocket' of sorts, where hired westerners can reside while they build their desert artificial ski resorts or whatever- or even public utility infrastructure, it is not all about extravagance. Point is, it is on the best interests of the local lord for the local people to remain in the dark. And now the west wants to change that? I don't think so:

        They also discussed the relationships the UAE is building with leading U.S. institutions,

        read: clients/investors

        including in education,

        read: 'educating' them to be obedient consumers/citizens,

        health care,

        read: make big database, put everyone in it,

        and the arts.

        read: eliminate and/or outdate and/or ridicule all ties to the upsofar dominating culture.

        Such 'friendly' practices have been around for centuries, if not for millennia.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Monday March 09 2015, @07:37PM

      by Thexalon (636) on Monday March 09 2015, @07:37PM (#155048)

      More to the point, in most countries in the Middle East, you can, for no reason whatsoever, be locked up, tortured, or executed. Monarchies and dictatorships are like that. And basically any building in Dubai has a body count of slaves (lured under the false pretenses of having a decent job) that died during construction.

      And maybe you begin to understand why the Arab Spring happened. We didn't hear much about the smaller countries like Bahrain that have had uprisings met by arbitrary arrest and just plain killing protesters, but that's what's going on, and the US firmly supports these governments.

      --
      The inverse of "I told you so" is "Nobody could have predicted"
      • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday March 09 2015, @07:56PM

        by hemocyanin (186) on Monday March 09 2015, @07:56PM (#155054) Journal

        Gitmo, Ferguson, Dubai.

      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday March 10 2015, @11:05AM

        by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 10 2015, @11:05AM (#155329) Journal

        Yeah, I have to echo hemocyanin, "for no reason whatsoever, be locked up, tortured, or executed" also now describes the United States. How fucked up is that? There is no more claim to freedom, justice, morality, or law left in America. Those are all just "damn pieces of paper," which everyone in government from top to bottom, left to right, has ceased to even pretend to follow anymore. How much longer a country like that, especially with a received national identity like this one's, can continue is anyone's guess. If the former Vice President of the country can brag on national television that he ordered crimes against humanity, and not fear consequences, and the Chicago Police Department can run its own black sites, again, without fear of consequences, then we are not very far removed from Stalinist Russia or Maoist China or Nazi Germany (or pick your own favorite totalitarian regime) at all.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bob_super on Monday March 09 2015, @05:24PM

    by bob_super (1357) on Monday March 09 2015, @05:24PM (#154991)

    > "It is deeply troubling that Mr. Pate now faces judicial proceedings over an action that was done legally in his home country"

    The list of examples where the US is on the opposite side of that statement would likely break SN's storage space...

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:29PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:29PM (#154993)

      Well, it's good if an American official says that. Because it can be quoted the next time the U.S. tries to extend the reach of its laws to another country.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:39PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:39PM (#154999)

      > The list of examples where the US is on the opposite side of that statement would likely break SN's storage space...

      How about giving us a taste?

      Remember, no extradition is going to fit that list because extradition treaties all require that the action be a crime in both states and even then if capital punishment is a possible sentence most countries won't extradite, some won't extradite as long as maximum possible punishment is way out of line with their local equivalent.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by ikanreed on Monday March 09 2015, @06:05PM

        by ikanreed (3164) on Monday March 09 2015, @06:05PM (#155018) Journal

        How about drone bombings under the 2001 Military Authorization act? Those loosely fit the bill, and they kill people, and don't even grant a trial.

        Technically the US asserts that this is a war against a non-state actor, but... I think most sane people would see it as extrajudicial judgement.

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Zinho on Monday March 09 2015, @06:35PM

        by Zinho (759) on Monday March 09 2015, @06:35PM (#155025)

        >> The list of examples where the US is on the opposite side of that statement would likely break SN's storage space...

        >How about giving us a taste?

        The case of Dmitry Sklyarov [wikipedia.org] stands out in my memory; situation seems exactly analogous. Programmer in Russia writes a program that is illegal in Russia, comes to the U.S., and is arrested for violation of U.S. law. No extradition needed, he was picked up when he came to speak at a professional conference in Las Vegas.

        It took a while to convince the US. government that it was wrong, but eventually they came to the conclusion that they didn't have jurisdiction; the charges were dropped.

        There are other, less clear-cut examples; notably, the arrest of Kim Dotcom. [wikipedia.org] In this case extradition was requested, and it's unclear to me whether Kim's actions were actually illegal in New Zealand where the crimes allegedly took place.

        I don't have a full list for you at the tips of my fingers, but I'll agree that the U.S. government has acted far too aggressively in the interests of its corporations on many occasions. More than would make me comfortable if I weren't one if its citizens.

        --
        "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:04PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:04PM (#155036)

          So, basically two counter-examples.

          (1) As you said, Sklyarov was released.

          (2) If Dotcom actually is extradited, then it will become an example, but until then his lack of extradition seems like proof to the contrary.

          • (Score: 2) by Zinho on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:24AM

            by Zinho (759) on Tuesday March 10 2015, @02:24AM (#155223)

            You have an interesting definition of counter-example.
            The examples we're looking for are cases where someone "faces judicial proceedings over an action that was done legally in his home country", and the U.S. is on the wrong side of Justice.

            * The FBI arrested Skylarov, imprisoned him for over a month, and prevented him from returning home for another four months; this because he was listed as the author of a piece of software that was legal to write and sell in his home country. Over the following year he was required to testify in court hearings against his employer.

            * The U.S. DOJ requested extradition of Kim Dotcom, as a result of which his home was raided and millions of dollars of his assets in New Zealand were seized and he was imprisoned. He spent the next two years and $10 million in court attempting to recover his assets and what was left of his good name.

            In both of these cases judicial proceedings were faced due to alleged violation of U.S. law. Since their own governments weren't prosecuting them for going about their daily business at home I'm going to assume that their activities were legal in their home countries. I'd say they're actually both pretty good examples.

            By the way, are you the same A.C. as originally asked for the examples? If you are, your position seems a bit inconsistent - "no extradition would qualify" conflicts with "If Dotcom actually is extradited, then it will become an example"...

            --
            "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Fnord666 on Monday March 09 2015, @07:18PM

          by Fnord666 (652) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 09 2015, @07:18PM (#155042) Homepage

          The case of Dmitry Sklyarov [wikipedia.org] stands out in my memory; situation seems exactly analogous. Programmer in Russia writes a program that is legal in Russia, comes to the U.S., and is arrested for violation of U.S. law. No extradition needed, he was picked up when he came to speak at a professional conference in Las Vegas.

          FTFY

          • (Score: 2) by Zinho on Monday March 09 2015, @11:40PM

            by Zinho (759) on Monday March 09 2015, @11:40PM (#155173)

            Oops, thanks!
            *face turns red*

            --
            "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:26PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @07:26PM (#155047)

          Citation please that the charges were dropped, and that they concluded they didn't have jurisdiction? Otherwise what you are saying is misleading and false.

          The last I checked was he was found not guilty because they did not wilfully infringe: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023-978176.html [cnet.com]

          Thus, the charges were not dropped and the US laws applied. He was just found not guilty and acquitted.

          So in similar way UAE can and does claim their laws apply, whether the UAE courts find this guy guilty or not is a different matter.

          • (Score: 2) by Zinho on Tuesday March 10 2015, @01:24AM

            by Zinho (759) on Tuesday March 10 2015, @01:24AM (#155210)

            The EFF has a pretty good write-up [eff.org] on what went down.

            TL;DR version:
            On December 13, 2001 Skylarov was released from custody and allowed to return to Russia. [eff.org]
            On December 16, 2002 the case against Skylarov's employer, Elcomsoft, ended with a "NOT GUILTY" verdict, [eff.org] and all charges against Skylarov were dropped.

            You are correct that the issue of jurisdiction was not what I remembered. Apparently, Elcomsoft had servers located on American soil, so the issue of whether the Digital Millennium Copyright Act has extraterritorial application was moot and not ruled upon.

            --
            "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @04:55PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @04:55PM (#155516)

              Seems to me more like one of those bargains where charges are dropped on one culprit (Skylarov) in exchange for that culprits cooperation in getting another culprit (Elcomsoft). That's the prerogative of prosecutors[1]. Doesn't mean they didn't have jurisdiction.

              So far from the links you gave it sure seems like the US law was applied and did apply, and charges were dropped on Skylarov not because of jurisdiction issues, but for other reasons (one of mentioned above).

              And they continued with the prosecution of Elcomsoft- the US law had jurisdiction, US law was applied, the US court system was applied and Elcomsoft was fortunate enough to be found not guilty.

              So similarly in this case, the UAE law can and does apply to the guy. Maybe he might get lucky and the charges will be dropped (for political, PR or other reasons).

              [1] http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/09/5-reasons-prosecutors-drop-criminal-charges.html [findlaw.com]

              • (Score: 2) by Zinho on Wednesday March 11 2015, @12:37AM

                by Zinho (759) on Wednesday March 11 2015, @12:37AM (#155836)

                Seems to me more like one of those bargains where charges are dropped on one culprit (Skylarov) in exchange for that culprits cooperation in getting another culprit (Elcomsoft). That's the prerogative of prosecutors[1]. Doesn't mean they didn't have jurisdiction.

                Yes, I believe that's exactly what happened. And I was incorrect about the jurisdiction issue, as I admitted in my previous post.

                . . . it sure seems like the US law was applied and did apply, and charges were dropped on Skylarov . . . So similarly in this case, the UAE law can and does apply to the guy.

                It sounds like we agree that the cases are analogous. That being the case, it's reasonable to point out the hypocrisy of a U.S. government official publicly saying that the U.A.E. shouldn't have prosecuted in the current case; the pot is calling the kettle black. I believe that was the point all the way back at the beginning of this thread.

                --
                "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by einar on Monday March 09 2015, @07:15PM

        by einar (494) on Monday March 09 2015, @07:15PM (#155040)

        Swiss banks

        Especially those not having any business in the US :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wegelin_%26_Co. [soylentnews.org]. In Switzerland, bank secrecy protects the anonymity of your account. US citizens using this to hide money from their tax authority do not commit a crime in Switzerland. Neither does the bank. Yet, Swiss banks get the shaft in the US.

        Remark1 : No, the bank secrecy is not just for foreigners to attract foreign money (E.g Germany keeps foreign accounts tax free and does not inform the country of origin of the account holder). It applies to everyone in Switzerland.

        Remark2 : Rumor claims that the pot cooked over for Wegelin when one of the owner claimed that they recommend for the Brazilian state to look into the money of their citizens hidden on US bank accounts...

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @09:38PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @09:38PM (#155088)

          That's an interesting one, particularly since they plead guilty.
          If there is one kind of organization you would think would have the resources to stand up for itself in court, its an international bank.
          Especially one with assets on the order of 21 billion dollars.

      • (Score: 1) by pgc on Monday March 09 2015, @08:31PM

        by pgc (1600) on Monday March 09 2015, @08:31PM (#155067)

        Assange.

    • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday March 09 2015, @08:54PM

      by Freeman (732) on Monday March 09 2015, @08:54PM (#155072) Journal

      Doubtful, have you looked at the price per gigabyte and how much text you could fit on a single terrabyte drive? It's insane. For comparison, Wikipedia has approximately 4.7million articles in the English Wikipedia and articles (only text) uncompressed take up about 40GB of space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Size_of_Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] Now, if we're talking about charts, that depends on how much storage soylent has. ;-) Though, again...Storage is Cheap.

      --
      Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
    • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday March 10 2015, @12:50AM

      by tangomargarine (667) on Tuesday March 10 2015, @12:50AM (#155202)

      The U.S. being an asshole does not make it okay for everyone else to be assholes.

      A) The U.S. should stop being an asshole.

      B) Everyone else should, respectively, stop being assholes.

      Stop assuming when we complain about one or the other, that's the only one we care about.

      --
      "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @10:20AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10 2015, @10:20AM (#155319)

        A) The U.S. should stop being an asshole.

        never gunna happen

        B is therefore moot

    • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Tuesday March 10 2015, @06:01PM

      by darkfeline (1030) on Tuesday March 10 2015, @06:01PM (#155564) Homepage

      Two wrongs on one side do not make a right on the other side.

      --
      Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:45PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @05:45PM (#155008)

    Oh boy...

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @08:56PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @08:56PM (#155074)

      Using your real name online and not waiting until you calm down (or come down, if chemically altered) before clicking the Submit/Post/Enter button.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @06:05PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @06:05PM (#155019)

    The company involved is Global Aerospace Logistics. I would hope that pressing charges or in some way provoking arrest over something that is at best a civil case in the US would fall within the scope of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Monday March 09 2015, @09:18PM

    He was arrested because he was dumb. He should at least have expected to be fired for badmouthing his employer in a public forum. If you don't think so, why don't you go ahead and try it and see what happens?

    Maybe I'm old fashioned, but it seems to me that any dispute I have with an employer is between the employer and me. There's no reason to drag something like that out in to public view unless this is a whistle blower situation or reporting a crime, in which case, a lawyer should be consulted before any action is taken.

    What was this guy thinking? Apparently, he wasn't.

    Whether or not it's appropriate for UAE to criminalize "defamation" is another question entirely. It seems rather harsh to me, and since I tend to speak my mind, I guess I won't be going there. But I don't take my own trained in prejudices to be the laws of nature.

    As many folks here point out on a fairly regular basis, a corporation has only one responsibility -- to maximize profits for its shareholders. Allowing an employee to publicly harangue the company could negatively impact that goal. As such, why is it surprising that this company is using whatever resources it has at its disposal to stop that from happening again?

    I'm not saying that the law is a good one and I'm not saying that this guy should go to jail, or even be fined. However, he should have expected repercussions from his actions. Just like that teenager [dailymail.co.uk] in Texas who got herself fired for acting like an idiot.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @10:49PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 09 2015, @10:49PM (#155146)

      Do you blame victims of other kinds of injustice just because they could have seen it coming too? Do you blame rape victims?

      Maybe I'm old fashioned

      Oh, you do.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Tuesday March 10 2015, @12:09AM

        Do you blame victims of other kinds of injustice just because they could have seen it coming too? Do you blame rape victims?

        I realize that you're a troll, but I'll feed you this one time.

        I don't "blame" him, per se. However, he made a poor choice and now he is being held responsible for that poor choice. Your reference to rape victims is completely inflammatory, as no coercion was applied to this employee.

        For the record, consent is not optional. Any activities with others that are not consensual is assault. If such activities are sexual in nature, it's rape. If someone engages in such crimes they should be prosecuted vigorously. Full stop. Is that "old fashioned" enough for you?

        Unlike rape, no one coerced this person to post negative stuff about his employer on a public forum. No one held a knife to his throat and forced him to post negative comments on facebook which included (according to him [huffingtonpost.com]) "he called his bosses "backstabbers" and warned other contractors not to work for them."

        As I said, and I'll even quote myself so you can read what you chose to ignore previously:

        Whether or not it's appropriate for UAE to criminalize "defamation" is another question entirely. It seems rather harsh to me,

        and

        I'm not saying that the law is a good one and I'm not saying that this guy should go to jail, or even be fined.

        And just for giggles I'll throw in one of my favorite Heinlein quotes too:

        But I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. [emphasis added]

        So you feel that this guy should not take responsibility for his speech and actions? It's not victim blaming, it's reality. Newton's Third Law applies, metaphorically speaking of course.

        Although we have the right (at least in the United States) to say almost anything we want, if someone objects to what we say, others can legally take actions (whether that be more speech, filing a lawsuit, etc.) in response to it, and we must deal with that. The right way to do so (IMHO) is to take responsibility for one's actions (including speech) and proceed accordingly.

        I merely pointed out that when this guy publicly excoriated his employer, he should have expected them to respond. That his employer used the laws of the UAE to push criminal sanctions is, IMHO, morally reprehensible. At the same time, common sense (which you don't appear to have) would tell us that blasting your employer publicly could have negative consequences.

        Since you are almost certainly a troll, and no amount of discussion will give you pause (since all you really wish to do is rile up others -- although why that should give someone pleasure, I have no idea), this is your one chance to prove me wrong.

        Have a wonderful day!

        --
        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by kaszz on Monday March 09 2015, @11:41PM

    by kaszz (4211) on Monday March 09 2015, @11:41PM (#155175) Journal

    Moral: Don't use your real name and say anything that anyone can be offended by.

    Using your real name just expose you to droves of dumb but painful droves of assholes. Social media is also on the low end of the human dignity scale.