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posted by cmn32480 on Saturday April 04 2015, @06:12AM   Printer-friendly
from the people-are-getting-amped-up dept.

An Anonymous Coward writes in with an article from Vice.com.

A generous state tax break has helped make Georgia the number two state for electric vehicles, and made Atlanta the top market for the compact Nissan Leaf. Both the Leaf and the higher-end Tesla sedans are now common sights in and around metro Atlanta, where more than 10,500 are registered.

But this year, Georgia lawmakers needed to raise nearly $1 billion to patch up crumbling roads, highways, and bridges. So they are pulling the plug on that $5,000 tax credit — a move budget analysts say will contribute $66 million to the state's coffers in 2016 and nearly $190 million by 2020.

But it gets worse for electric vehicle (EV) boosters. Legislators are adding a $200-a-year annual fee for owners to offset the loss of gasoline taxes that drivers would otherwise pay to maintain roads.

The Economist has a breakdown of the current system of the tax credits and the expected economic impact of the changes.

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  • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @06:31AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @06:31AM (#166324)

    That's what the Information Superhighway was for, right?

  • (Score: 1) by MostCynical on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:06AM

    by MostCynical (2589) on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:06AM (#166331) Journal

    The environment can wait.

    --
    "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:56AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:56AM (#166339)

      Crumbling roads, highways, and bridges are all part of the environment.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by CirclesInSand on Saturday April 04 2015, @03:13PM

      by CirclesInSand (2899) on Saturday April 04 2015, @03:13PM (#166406)

      The environment sure is a convenient excuse for industrial welfare. Those batteries aren't exactly made of grass and rainbows either.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 05 2015, @10:12AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 05 2015, @10:12AM (#166609)

        Sure, but they are a lot more easily recycled than the shit that comes out of the tailpipe of a regular ICE car. Despite all the advances, what comes out of the tailpipe of most cars is still filthy. I can't wait for the day when all cars are electric, it will do wonders for air quality.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by moo kuh on Saturday April 04 2015, @09:07AM

    by moo kuh (2044) on Saturday April 04 2015, @09:07AM (#166344) Journal

    I doubt this is only about infrastructure maintenance. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country, [wikipedia.org] EVs have less than 1% of the market share. Maybe a civil engineer can correct me if I am wrong, but isn't most wear done by large trucks with heavy loads? Everyone uses roads whether they drive or not. Stuff has to get to stores somewhere, and people have to get around in some manner. Wouldn't it make more sense to raise some other kind of tax since good infrastructure benefits all? The fee I can understand. I am not an economist, but assuming EVs have a lower total cost of ownership over the long term than a comparable ICE, wouldn't that money be spent on other things? Sure, ICE mechanics would suffer a bit, but that is the broken window fallacy. I also wonder if there will be any economic impacts from more money spent on fuel, assuming this drives EV demand down. Oil is a finite resource and prices will go up eventually. Lots of EVs would lessen the economic damage this will cause.

    I am sure I will get a reply that raising taxes for everyone isn't good for the next election cycle and pissing off a blue leaning crowd in a red state won't hurt as much as a general tax increase. This may or may not be the case. My take is, it is a way for GA politicians to solve a problem that can't be ignored while trying to be re-elected.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Non Sequor on Saturday April 04 2015, @11:26AM

      by Non Sequor (1005) on Saturday April 04 2015, @11:26AM (#166365) Journal

      Sometimes the ability to convince other people to buy in to your solution is a constraint on the forms your solution can take.

      One of the opposing theories to what you laid out might be that tax rates are sticky in that there is resistance to increasing them and there is a tendency to redirect revenue towards other projects rather than lowering them. From that perspective, an imperfect use tax may in some cases be better at dedicating revenue to a variable expense tied to that use than an earmark from general revenue even if the general revenue earmark can be directly adjusted for measured changes in infrastructure cost.

      Working from that perspective, when the imperfection in your use tax becomes larger in an unanticipated way, you now have a hole in your budget. The immediate response is to patch it.

      --
      Write your congressman. Tell him he sucks.
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Magic Oddball on Saturday April 04 2015, @09:50AM

    by Magic Oddball (3847) on Saturday April 04 2015, @09:50AM (#166350) Journal

    When I saw the headline, I thought that the article was going to talk about the Georgia legislature coming up with some wacky reason to ban — you know, actually pull the plug on — electric vehicles. Failing to give extra money to people already able to afford to purchase (or get a loan for) of the latest high-end green status vehicle isn't remotely the same thing.

    Realistically, they're pricy enough that if a person can't afford to buy (or get a loan) for one, then the rebate/bonus isn't going to be the deciding factor; by the same token, a person that can afford one isn't going to decide against it because of the lack of a cash infusion they don't actually need. I'm sure that they enjoy the little extra bit of disposable income, but it doesn't seem like a wise idea considering the country's debt level and how much trouble states like Georgia are having just paying for the basics.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @01:26PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @01:26PM (#166377)

      > Realistically, they're pricy enough that if a person can't afford to buy (or get a loan) for one,
      > then the rebate/bonus isn't going to be the deciding factor

      Sorry, but you are just running your mouth. Stating your conclusion as the premise.
      $5000 off the top of a $35,000 car can easily be the deciding factor between two different vehicles.

    • (Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Saturday April 04 2015, @06:28PM

      by arashi no garou (2796) on Saturday April 04 2015, @06:28PM (#166461)

      What you don't realize is that taking away the $5000 tax break and adding a $200 fee on top is the equivalent of raising the actual price of the vehicle the consumer sees. If you go to Nissan's or Tesla's websites and look up prices for your favorite EV, you'd see the price quoted is after the incentives are considered. This "sticker price" is what consumers use to compare the total cost of ownership of the vehicle versus the gas-burning competition. When you take away those incentives and add even more fees on top, the total cost of ownership suddenly shifts the other way, and that's exactly what the Georgia legislature wants. They may claim it's to "save our roads" but you can be sure there's heavy oil industry lobbying behind those decisions.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Snotnose on Saturday April 04 2015, @02:45PM

    by Snotnose (1623) on Saturday April 04 2015, @02:45PM (#166393)

    Getting rid of the tax credit, good. Why is the state giving $5k to upper middle class people?

    Charging $200 for buying electric is pure BS.

    --
    Why shouldn't we judge a book by it's cover? It's got the author, title, and a summary of what the book's about.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by CirclesInSand on Saturday April 04 2015, @03:05PM

      by CirclesInSand (2899) on Saturday April 04 2015, @03:05PM (#166400)

      Why is the state giving $5k to upper middle class people?

      This is sarcasm right? Do you really think that welfare is for poor people? The richer you are, the more money you get from the government. That's pretty much a universal fact of all of human history.

      I completely agree with your outrage though. In this case, they get away with it by pretending that it is for the sake of environmental health.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @03:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @03:58PM (#166419)

        If only life were actually as black and white as that.

        There is nothing stopping it from being about both those things simultaneously, as well as a whole host of other factors too.

    • (Score: 2) by subs on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:52PM

      by subs (4485) on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:52PM (#166486)

      Charging $200 for buying electric is pure BS.

      How else are we going to pay for the infrastructure bought by gas tax dollars and used equally by ICE cars and EVs? Do you consider it fair to use a service and not pay for it?

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by lentilla on Sunday April 05 2015, @12:04AM

        by lentilla (1770) on Sunday April 05 2015, @12:04AM (#166529)

        I can't help but point out (and I'm surprised nobody seems to have mentioned it already on this thread) that damage to roads is proportional to the fourth power of the axle weight [wikipedia.org]. Without wanting to unduly labour this point (since we've already been through this in other discussions), it's worth recognising that as soon as you allow trucks on your road, the damage done by cars fades in significance.

        Do you consider it fair to use a service and not pay for it?

        No, but I'd consider it reasonable to share infrastructure. "Infrastructure" being something that needs to exist anyway: roads are a good example, as is sewerage, public transportation systems and so on. I am content to balance out the cost across society - the times that I can contribute are balanced out by the times that I contribute less. I am content that these costs balance out for two reasons:

        1. that calculating my "fair share" is a fool's errand and would result in endless arguments, and;
        2. that I'd prefer to be generous by default and to share my largesse with my fellows. (I've already been the recipient of many things courtesy of past generations, so now it's my time to "pay it forward", so to speak.)
        • (Score: 2) by subs on Sunday April 05 2015, @02:13AM

          by subs (4485) on Sunday April 05 2015, @02:13AM (#166551)

          I can't help but point out (and I'm surprised nobody seems to have mentioned it already on this thread) that damage to roads is proportional to the fourth power of the axle weight. Without wanting to unduly labour this point (since we've already been through this in other discussions), it's worth recognising that as soon as you allow trucks on your road, the damage done by cars fades in significance.

          Watch out what you're asking for. EVs tend to be a lot heavier (easily 50%) than ICE cars. Are you prepared to pay 5x more than your ICE neighbor for infrastructure because of your EV with all of its heavy batteries? You gotta compare apples to apples. Trucks are already taxed more, so the point is moot. Stop deflecting.

          No, but I'd consider it reasonable to share infrastructure.

          I take it then that you have no objection to that $200/year tax on EVs, as it's merely bringing them roughly in-line with existing road infrastructure-using vehicles.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 05 2015, @04:39AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 05 2015, @04:39AM (#166564)

            > Are you prepared to pay 5x more than your ICE neighbor for infrastructure because of your EV with all of its heavy batteries?

            Why do you assume hypocrisy on his part?

            > Trucks are already taxed more, so the point is moot. Stop deflecting.

            Yeah? Define "more." Because that sounds like deflection to me. There is no way they are taxed proportionally to the 4th power of axle weight.

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by lentilla on Sunday April 05 2015, @08:39AM

            by lentilla (1770) on Sunday April 05 2015, @08:39AM (#166592)

            You know how I mentioned previously that attempting to calculate a "fair share" was a fool's errand?

            No, but I'd consider it reasonable to share infrastructure.

            I take it then that you have no objection to that $200/year tax on EVs

            When I was talking about "sharing", I didn't mean "share a cake by paying for the proportion you eat". Like I tried to explain before: calculating the proportion will generate so many wildly dissenting opinions. What I am suggesting is that we consider infrastructure as something that benefits us all - rich and poor alike. In the case of road infrastructure, the rich benefit by selling products delivered via road and the poor benefit by being able to visit shops to buy products. We all benefit. Who benefits more? Less?

            Are you prepared to pay 5x more than your ICE neighbor for infrastructure because of your EV with all of its heavy batteries?

            Am I prepared to? Yes. Would I do so? That would honestly depend on price. Personally I am content to pay more to drive the car that I want. How much more is a very individual question. In my case, probably quite a bit more, but then again I rather like cars - I see them as a kind of mechanical symphony wrapped up in artistic form. Other people don't quite share my love. So... pragmatically speaking, we need to forget individual preferences because it isn't relevant to the bigger picture. The real question is: what kind of behaviours do we want to encourage?

            Burning fossil fuels is not something we want to keep doing. Electric cars might not be the answer - how "green" they are depends on who you ask. I do know one thing; though; and that is that we want to explore all the options available, as much as possible, as fast as possible. Automobile technology has come a long way. The last thing we want to do at this very moment when we are experiencing an evolution of automobile engineering is discourage innovation through a regressive tax. The sooner we wean ourselves from burning fossil fuels to get to work on a daily basis, the better for all humanity. It's a good bet giving emergent technologies a "free pass".

            To summarise my position, I put forward the following considerations:

            1. "Infrastructure" are systems that benefit everyone where the costs can not be easily divided amongst the users because the individual benefits don't necessarily benefit each user in proportion to their individual use.
            2. That these infrastructure costs should be shared by those that can afford them to benefit everyone that needs them. Society is symbiotic. No roads mean no travelling to shops for poor people; and (but not in exclusion to); no roads mean the wealthy can't deliver products to shops for the poor to buy. (When I say "poor" and "wealthy", you might prefer to read "under/over contributing to infrastructure costs".)
            3. I'd prefer to be generous by default. I don't mind if you call it "trickle-down economics" or "better a beer shared with a mate than two for myself", that's still the way I prefer to live.
            4. We have got to stop burning fossil fuels so giving alternative technologies a leg-up is a smart long-term strategy. Conversely, causing people to stop supporting alternatives is penny-wise and pound-foolish.
      • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Sunday April 05 2015, @08:05AM

        by bob_super (1357) on Sunday April 05 2015, @08:05AM (#166586)

        There's that license plate sticker that contributes to paying for roads... in theory.
        Sure, it's not the same as sticker+gas tax. But the EVs don't cause billions in health care costs to the state from spewing their pollution in the middle of the city.

    • (Score: 2) by Sir Finkus on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:58PM

      by Sir Finkus (192) on Saturday April 04 2015, @08:58PM (#166489) Journal

      Charging $200 for buying electric is pure BS.

      Why? As I understand it gas taxes are just a convenient way to charge people taxes based upon how much they use the roads. An electric car is going to cause just as much wear and tear on the road as the equivalent gas powered vehicle. The alternative is more tolls or a straight mileage tax.

      Taxes and fees suck, but so do bridge collapses and potholes.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @10:32PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 04 2015, @10:32PM (#166511)

        It is a pretty shitty proxy for road usage. At least a gas tax has some relationship to the actual amount of wear and tear on the roads.

        A straight mileage tax is a lot better. Everybody will pay equally for their road usage whether it is a 12mpg guzzler or an electric car. All the heavily populated counties in georgia already have yearly emissions testing, recording the odometer would not be a burden.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by gnuman on Sunday April 05 2015, @01:29AM

          by gnuman (5013) on Sunday April 05 2015, @01:29AM (#166541)

          Proper road tax should incorporate two things,

            1. initial capital costs, based on usage - this comes from property taxes (frontage) as well maybe mileage fees
            2. actual road damage, which is 4th power of actual weight per axle.

          You see, a cement truck with 40 tons of concrete or a semi with 40 tons created tremendously more damage on the roads than any normal car. For example, a bicycle, ALL the road damage in perpetuity is more than included in the sales tax, if the sales tax is more than 1%. But a cement truck with 10 tons per axle, creates about 10,000 more damage than a normal car. If they are charging $200/yr for road damage, than the semi and cement truck companies need to be charged $200,000+ per year per vehicle per 20k km. Fair is fair, right? But then you have truckers converting to natural gas which completely sidestep the infinitesimal costs they pay in gas costs.

          Everyone is subsidizing heavy traffic on the roads.