from the once-more-for-those-who-haven't-been-paying-attention dept.
The Center for American Progress reports:
A large new study--which was published just in time for National Infant Immunization Week--is being hailed as the final "nail in the coffin" of the persistent conspiracy theory that [the vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) is] linked to autism.
[...]In the years since [disgraced British doctor Andrew] Wakefield's [completely discredited] research on the topic, several different studies have reaffirmed the safety of the recommended childhood vaccination schedule. No credible evidence has emerged that vaccines have any effect on autism rates.
Now, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association has ruled out a potential vaccine-autism link even among a small group of children who are more at risk for the disorder. The review of nearly 100,000 children found (paywall) that even when toddlers have an older sibling who has been placed on the autism spectrum--which means they could have a greater chance of developing autism themselves--getting the MMR shot does nothing to increase that risk.
This still doesn't solve the Jenny McCarthy (bimbo) problem:
A lie can go around the world while the truth is lacing up its boots.
(Score: 4, Informative) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday May 06 2015, @11:00PM
conspiracy theorists don't place much credence in peer-reviewed studies.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1) by DECbot on Wednesday May 06 2015, @11:26PM
Of course, any study will receive enthusiastic approval from a well bribed panel of peers.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday May 07 2015, @12:15AM
4 years ago, anybody who said that the NSA was spying on everybody was a conspiracy theorist.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by TGV on Thursday May 07 2015, @07:19AM
There is of course a small difference. For one thing, we could not experiment on the NSA, or get all data we wanted.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:01PM
Of course you could, just not easily. Snowden performed that experiment, successfully.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 08 2015, @03:22PM
4 years ago, anybody who said that the NSA was spying on everybody was a conspiracy theorist.
I would respectfully disagree. Anyone who was paying attention knew that the NSA was spying on everybody long before 2011 (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A [wikipedia.org] ) without being a conspiracy theorist.
Not that there aren't ever any conspiracies. But if someone thinks that vaccines, in general, are a conspiracy, they are likely purposely ignorant (won't read a history book) or fools.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:41AM
Unless the study tells them exactly what they want to hear.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:35AM
Especially not when the "peers" have shares or sponsorships from .. tada! the drug manufacturers.
So for 100,000 cases immunization works, as designed and intended. But for whatever DNA quirk which we do not understand yet with all our science, in case 100,001 something goes wrong. We have a close friend whose daughter was a perfect child up till one of the MMR boosters. Suddenly within days she had seizures and all sorts of medical bad. She is now 20+ and still 100% dependant on her parents, functioning like a 7 year old.. a "good" day is "only 4 seizures".
Tell /that/ parent about your "foolproof evidence" of "no harm"....
(Score: 2) by t-3 on Thursday May 07 2015, @04:56AM
I don't know why this is modded flamebait. The anecdote shared is perfectly relevant and worth noting.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @10:20AM
It sounds completely made up, like the person is talking out of their ass and bold face lying to prove their point.
If this was the case, their would be studies that highlighted this as an actual cause and affect.
However, we only get these little "bimbo truthiness stories", my friend's cousin's former roommate got the Autisms after a shot!
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @07:05AM
So, when I had my son vaccinated when he was an infant there was a 1 in 100,000 chance that the same thing would have happened to him. Without getting vaccinated, his chances of getting sick with the diseases that the vaccines are supposed to prevent are a lot higher, judging from the outbreaks of these diseases that have been happening of late. In contrast, my son's odds of someday getting struck by lightning are 1 in 6250. His chances of someday getting killed in a motor vehicle accident are something like 1 in 88. Nothing in life is a sure thing. Deal with it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Thursday May 07 2015, @11:55PM
Death is.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday May 07 2015, @08:58AM
> Especially not when the "peers" have shares or sponsorships from .. tada! the drug manufacturers.
That's the funny thing about anti-vaxxers: They are so sure that Not-A-Doctor Andrew Babykiller Wakefield was a big hero saving them from the evils of big pharma when he published the supposed link between MMR and autism. What they never bother to learn (I mean, it's not like you have to go any further than wikipedia [wikipedia.org]) is that he faked his research in order to discredit the MMR vaccine so that he could make lots of money on an alternative vaccine: Yes, Wakefield is, himself... tada! A drug manufacturer! The MMR-autism myth was cooked up by pharmaceutical interests in order to sell drugs. As a result, kids have died. Fuck Wakefield, fuck anti-vaxxers, and fuck anyone who defends them.
I'm sorry about your friend's daughter, and I can understand the parents wanting some kind of explanation and desperately clinging to whatever unsupported claptrap they are offered. I'd be happy to let them keep their delusion, if it offered them comfort, if their delusion wasn't actively killing other people's children right now [antivaccinebodycount.com]. The fact is that some symptoms only start to manifest at about the same age that kids get the vaccine. Even if there was a trigger and a "DNA quirk" for that girl's condition, how do you know the trigger was the vaccine? Maybe she picked something weird or dirty off the floor and ate it. Little kids do that, you know. Maybe she was exposed to some illness or infection that damaged her brain in some subtle way. Maybe she had a bump on the head somewhen that went unreported, and the parents never even knew. These explanations are no less likely than the vaccine. Above all, how do you know that she wouldn't have had all these symptoms anyway, without any kind of trigger? You don't. You can't. Not without a large-scale medical study, like the one in TFA. Anything else is just reading tea-leaves. That study cost a lot of valuable time and resources, to prove something we already knew to be true, all because some amoral jizzpole decided that money was more important than good medicine.
I'm sorry if this comes off sounding angry and confrontational, but the thought of babies being murdered for profit will do that to any sane human being.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @10:24AM
Stop using terms like DNA, it sounds like you're trying to sound smart.
The reality is you're just another retard who gets their medical advice from a washed up playboy bunny.
Her biggest contribution to the human race was showing her tits 20 years ago.
I hope your infant son dies from Measles, I also hope helping Dr Jenny stay in the public eye is worth it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:11PM
The first thing I'd tell that parent is that just because she started getting seizures immediately following an MMR booster does not necessarily mean that the MMR booster caused the seizures. It's quite possible that she'd still have the seizures had she never gotten a single MMR shot. Especially since there's nothing in the MMR shot that has ever been linked to causing seizures.
Their reaction is perfectly understandable, but quite possibly rooted in an incorrect assumption based on the post hoc fallacy.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by cafebabe on Wednesday May 06 2015, @11:24PM
"Trust us, we're doctors" doesn't work with this audience. Indeed, reviewing 100,000 cases and putting the result behind a paywall may inflame the situation.
1702845791×2
(Score: 2) by davester666 on Friday May 08 2015, @07:53AM
trust us, we're catholic priests. We've just spent years studying small children...wait, that sounds wrong...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 06 2015, @11:33PM
There will never be a final "nail in the coffin" that will destroy the conspiracy theory. You can't reason someone out a position that they didn't reason themselves into.
I also don't blame Jenny McCarthy (spelling is wrong in the summary). She is ignorant and lacks the education to understand her son's disorder and how vaccines had nothing to do with it. She is a true believer based on her own as well as other's anecdotal evidence and a fraudulent study. The real problem is that she has never been qualified to make any scientific or medical claims, but she has still been given many opportunities to speak about vaccines and autism.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by krishnoid on Wednesday May 06 2015, @11:45PM
The real problem is that so many people follow her advice in preference to impartially researching her claims.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday May 06 2015, @11:53PM
The real problem is that there's many problems.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:47AM
The real problem is that she's the load her mother should have swallowed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 06 2015, @11:58PM
impartially researching her claims
There are many people that are incapable of doing this. They lack the education or intrinsic ability to critically evaluate evidence.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @11:43PM
Yet they're apparently capable of calling other research, claims, and evidence bullshit, just not the ones that support what they want to believe. They're placing the words of an uneducated idiot, like themselves, above people who have studied this stuff for years or decades. And this isn't the only "controversial" area where this kind of shit is happening.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday May 07 2015, @12:18AM
Is "conspiracy theorist" the new "terrorist," "pedophile," or "racist?"
Some people would like to think so. Conspiracy Theory [imdb.com] is a good movie, by the way. And features Captain Jean-Luc Piccard [wordpress.com] as a sadistic corporate closet-torturer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:51AM
Mel Gibson's face looks a little like a young Bruce Campbell on the imdb poster/box art.
(Score: 3, Funny) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday May 07 2015, @09:01AM
> a sadistic corporate closet-torturer.
Sounds to me like those closets deserve it.
(Score: 2) by Kromagv0 on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:15PM
There will never be a final "nail in the coffin" that will destroy the conspiracy theory.
Yes there will, you just need to choose the right coffins, preferably ones filled with the anti-vaxers.
T-Shirts and bumper stickers [zazzle.com] to offend someone
(Score: 5, Insightful) by deadstick on Thursday May 07 2015, @12:31AM
A conspiracy faith.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:42AM
I like this. A theory is something that is testable. Conspiracy "theories" are not theories. They are a "con", however.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @09:11AM
And this theory was tested, and was found false. That's exactly what the article is about.
Of course, falsification of a conspiracy theory will just cause the followers to immunize it. And an immunized theory is no longer a theory, but superstition.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Sunday May 10 2015, @11:37AM
Well, those people are against immunization, so...
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday May 08 2015, @12:51PM
So if the idea that vaccines cause autism isn't testable, what the heck is this article about?
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Sunday May 10 2015, @11:36AM
"Vaccines cause autism" isn't a conspiracy, it is just wrong.
The untestable conspiracy is that the government and every reputable doctor in the world is working to hide it.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday May 11 2015, @09:48PM
It is testable though because they're both parts of the same idea. You test if vaccines cause autism. If yes, the conspiracy theory is true. If we're in the real world and they don't, then there's nothing to conspire about and therefore the conspiracy theory must be false.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday May 08 2015, @04:30PM
It's more than that, because, as a sibling points out, the idea that vaccines lead to autism is indeed testable.
A scientific theory is an idea that accurately explains a lot of testable and proven facts. The real test of a theory is when a new set of facts are discovered that have a corresponding set of predictions based on the theory, that the theory still matches the facts.
For example, when genetics came along, evolution was challenged with a set of possibly non-matching facts, since they both relate to inheritance of organism traits. But, of course, genetics didn't disprove evolution, and indeed provided a mechanism for the exact phenomenon that Darwin had observed a century earlier.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:49PM
> A conspiracy faith.
The thing is, your belief that vaccines don't cause autism is faith too.
For all practical purposes, we live the majority of our lives on faith because none of us have time to fully investigate more than a handful of topics. Everything else we trust the explanations given to us. We try to apply logic to it, but that can only take us so far. In the end we give our trust to people because otherwise we would be frozen in a sort of "paralysis of analysis."
The only way to reduce conspiracy theories is to increase trust. More studies repeating previous studies won't do that because the anti-vaxxers doubt the legitimacy of the studies in the first place, so to them more studies just means more lies.
I have two ideas for increasing trust:
(1) Publicly hold drug companies to higher standards - start some criminal prosecutions for their most egregious behaviours, etc.
(2) Aonvince a prominent anti-vaxxer to come in and spend the time to hand-hold them through all the nitty-gritty details. Don't talk down to them, don't try to 'play' them - treat them respectfully and go all out to inform them. Make them an actual expert. Do so publicly, let them blog about the process or whatever so that it isn't in secret. If you do a good job, they will come out convinced of the error of their ways. Their change won't convince every anti-vaxxer, but that would be an impossible goal. What will happen is that many of the people who put their trust in that person will change their minds too.
We've seen at least one case of that with climate-change deniers. [theguardian.com] It was easier to do because the guy is an actual scientist, but the princple is the same - increase trust by addressing the person's doubts.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @12:50AM
I guess that settles it [politico.com].
(Score: 2) by middlemen on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:20AM
Michelle Bachmann has autism ? That explains her !!!
(Score: 2) by rts008 on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:13PM
I don't think autism by itself can account for that much stupidity and batshit-insanity in one person. Whew!
But you may be headed down the right trail...
(you may have meant that as a joke, but I'm serious)
[sarcasm warning]
I've got my own nutty conspiracy theory:
Something happened at a Republican convention, infected a bunch of them (like Legionnaires' disease in Philly back in 1976 to the American Legion convention), and Bachman and her ilk are the result. ;-)
(Score: 0, Troll) by VortexCortex on Thursday May 07 2015, @02:23AM
It's common knowledge that the CDC is corrupt, and so too is the American Medical Association and World Health Organization also compromised by big pharma. I could go into it, but if you don't know this, then you haven't done any research. Protip: You can't count on the corporate sponsored news to deliver you unbiased information...
Some Vaccines contain mercury. Not all do, but the Flu vaccine is notorious for having mercury, hence the claims of neurological disorders such as autism, in the extreme.
I want you to remember the recent history of tobacco and cancer.
Remember how there were no conclusive studies linking tobacco to cancer? Could there be a possible financial incentive to fudge the results?
I'm not against vaccines, but kids today get hundreds of shots, and my parents got less than 10. Vaccines became extremely lucrative and exploded in the 1980's when the government granted complete exception to vaccine makers against any wrongdoing or harm.
What I'm against is needless vaccinations. I assure you that vaccines are a lot less effective than you think, hence the measles outbreak at Disneyland. It wasn't anti-vaxxers, but people who were vaccinated that got sick. Of course, you would know this if you did any fact checking instead of believing the propaganda arm of the state and corporations: Mainstream media.
So, I will continue to post "anti-vaxxer conspiracy theories" as a selectively vaccinated non-partisan anti-authoritarian atheist in the hopes that the self congratulatory fools who dominate "nerd" spaces might stop believing it's just "religious republicans" who have their doubts about today's rampant vaccination pork handouts, which are becoming mandatory (money printing), lower quality (see: outbreaks affecting vaccinated people), and largely unnecessary.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:02AM
If you have done so much "research" that you "know" that there is a "dangerous" substance in vaccines, then clearly you have discovered along the way that there are brands that don't contain that.
Insist on one of those brands.
Specifically, demand they use a single-dose vial.
Bring along a strong magnifier with you; read the label.
Problem solved.
Gawd, ignorant people are so tiresome.
...and I find it difficult to believe that in the middle of this shitstorm there are still places that are ordering the brands that contain Thimerosal.
-- gewg_
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @06:20AM
Didn't it ever cross your mind that grandparent might be interested in somebody else's health besides him/herself?
And lose the attitude navel gazer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @10:42AM
Your grandpa's information is outdated or he's lost it, maybe it's time to move him into a home.
Most Vaccines don't contain Thimerosa anymore, that's the Mercury ever idiot was screaming about. I doubt you even know what that is, go and google it first smart guy.
Your child gets more mercury from one Tuna sandwich than the total number of shots they should receive, which is not in the hundreds.
You should learn to count and your grandpa is senile.
The measles outbreak at Disneyland, IT WAS THE ANTI-VAXXERS! -Fixed that for you.
Herd immunity, look into it. I know why you won't, because actual research is harder than making shit up...
Grandpa also admitted he's arguing for the sake of arguing, typical old man behavior, but by all means continue to encourage him to look the fool.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by shortscreen on Thursday May 07 2015, @05:06AM
Assuming this is not a troll post, let me say this. Being skeptical is a different thing than alleging a vast global conspiracy.
You say that CDC, AMA, and WHO are corrupted by big pharma. How would that be relevant to this issue? Where's the conflict of interest?
What are the "hundreds of shots" you speak of? I've never heard of anyone getting so many.
What makes you think that there is big money in vaccines? Compared to other drugs a vaccine doesn't cost that much and you receive at most a few doses during your entire life.
Vaccines have never been 100% effective, and nobody claimed that they were. That doesn't mean they are unnecessary.
You don't even explain how supposedly causing autism as a side effect fits into your conspiracy theory.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:56PM
What makes you think that there is big money in vaccines? Compared to other drugs a vaccine doesn't cost that much and you receive at most a few doses during your entire life.
I am not an anti-vaxxer, but your logic is flawed.
Vaccine Revenues Near 24 Billion [kaloramainformation.com] - Even if that is a tiny fraction of the trillion dollar pharma industry, that's still 24 billion dollars worth of incentive.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Bogsnoticus on Thursday May 07 2015, @07:13AM
"Some Vaccines contain mercury. Not all do, but the Flu vaccine is notorious for having mercury, hence the claims of neurological disorders such as autism, in the extreme."
You might want to watch the Penn & Teller Bullshit episode on the anti-vax movement.
You get more mercury in a single tuna sandwich, than you do in the entire course of vaccinations you get in your life.
But keep pumping out the same old shite rhetoric that has been disproven time and again. We need a good laugh.
Genius by birth. Evil by choice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @07:33AM
Please vote parent Insightformative!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @09:17AM
How many people were included in the study of tuna sandwich injections?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @09:16AM
You can't fight conspiracy theories with facts. You need a counter conspiracy theory that is just as silly as the original one, but causes the people to show the intended behaviour.
Anyway, did you know that the Illuminati did create the anti-vaccination myths because they use illnesses as weapons, and vaccination makes those weapons ineffective?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @09:22AM
Yet again, the news is that someone has proven a negative. And we are supposed to take those news seriously?
In regular science, there is a rule "you cannot prove a negative". News that someone has proven a negative is always about proving that no harm comes from a product that big companies make fortunes producing.
Whether that being that there is no way that any amount of 2.4 GHz radio waves is harmful, (yet they still tell you not to put your dog in the microwave), or that there is no possible way that one of the most toxic non-radioactive elements could be harmful to inject.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:20PM
Yes, we cannot even disprove that in five minutes earth's gravitation will fail. But from all the evidence we have we can still say that it would be completely insane to act as if the earth's gravitation would fail in five minutes.
Sure, in the extremely unlikely case that earth's gravitation indeed will fail in five minutes, those insane people who took precautions against the failure of gravitation can point to all the sane people floating into space and say "see? I told you!" But that doesn't matter because we can predict with confidence that this will not happen, despite the fact that we cannot prove it.
Anyway, we also cannot prove that vaccination doesn't prevent autism. Think about it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @10:08AM
Did anyone else read that the way I did?
(Score: 2) by rts008 on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:22PM
I did not, but I find the idea interesting. Please continue on with this narrative....
(Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday May 07 2015, @01:57PM
If that idea intrigues you, Google "lacing body modification".
Have a nice afternoon.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by No Respect on Thursday May 07 2015, @10:40AM
Facts, in the form of new authoritative studies conducted by people with real live credentials, won't sway the true believers. Their response will be a predictable, "They must be in on it too."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @11:41AM
Meanwhile, the same politicians, doctors and medical companies are using the exact same arguments for not providing any help (medical or otherwise) for the young women (12-20) who after receiving the HPV vaccine went from athletic to unable to do even everyday basic tasks. The vaccine is completely safe.
More studies is not going to convince people to trust the same old liars *this time*.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:20PM
References?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 07 2015, @03:52PM
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/16/michele-bachmann/bachmann-hpv-vaccine-cause-mental-retardation/ [politifact.com]