from the we'll-pay-you-back-this-time-we-swear dept.
Greece missed a payment to the IMF on Tuesday and defaulted, but now they are willing to do the deal, or most of the deal, that would have prevented it. According to CNN:
Whoa! The Greek government is now ready to sign on to a bailout package it threw out just days ago, but the about-face won't fix the country's crisis any time soon.
Additional coverage of the Greek Referendum and the political backlash in the Eurozone can be found from the BBC.
It looks like they want to add amendments, so this is not a done deal. Maybe it's not too late for Greece? Or is the Euro better off without Greece? Or Greece without the Euro?
Original Submission
Related Stories
To add to the other Greece Breaking News story (Greece Defaults, Still Wants Bailout)....
The Ars Writes:
Thom Feeney, a London shoe shop worker who started a campaign to raise €1.6 billion (that's US $1.78 billion). Feeney's IndieGoGo campaign, started just two days ago, has already raised an astonishing €478,575 (or $533,010) from more than 30,000 people.
"All this dithering over Greece is getting boring," Feeney wrote on his IndieGoGo page. "Why don't we the people just sort it instead?" He added that to come up with the €1.6 billion, every member of Europe would only have to give €3 each (well, technically you'd only need to collect from members of the European Union; that's not even counting any potentially generous Swiss or Norwegian people.)
The campaign has six days left to raise money. If €1.6 billion isn't raised, all the donors will get back their money.
This afternoon, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) declared that Greece was officially in arrears, but it has not yet declared that Greece is in default. Technically, the IMF could offer Greece an extension of its debt repayment obligation. On July 5, the country will hold a national referendum on whether to sign a deal demanding even stricter austerity from the nation.
But, if Europeans all chip in, maybe we can just put this silly bailout business behind us.
Original Submission
(Score: 5, Insightful) by frojack on Thursday July 02 2015, @01:59AM
Greece would probably be better off OUT of the EU, and the EU would probably better with Greece OUT.
Greece's large tourist trade and farming could probably sustain it quite well, as it has for centuries. Sure, their economy will take a hit, and people will probably have to get off their butts and actually get their farms and businesses running again, return to their historical strong exports and cut back on imports.
But being constantly under the thumbs of the banks in Germany is not likely to be a long term solution.
Enough Pain to go around for everyone, but easy credit is a trap and its time that lesson was learned.
Puerto Rico, a "common wealth" of the US is in the same boat.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by caffeine on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:30AM
Whilst I agree Greece would likely be better off out of the EU, having Greece struggling keeps the value of the Euro down and that is a big benefit to Germany & France.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:47AM
Apparently not a big enough advantage.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by caffeine on Thursday July 02 2015, @05:49AM
Guess we'll find out over the next couple of weeks.
Will be very interesting to see how far the EU goes to keep them in, or what they will do to discredit Tsipras before the referendum.
(Score: 1) by FunkyLich on Thursday July 02 2015, @11:31PM
I find this interesting, how does the low value of Euro from Greece be of a benefit for Germany and France? I don't remember where I saw this by-mentioned elsewhere, but I can't see how does this work. Could you introduce me to this notion please?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 03 2015, @12:11AM
Net exporters like Germany like a relatively low valued currency because it makes exports more competitive. That is, if Germany was using it's own currency it would be much more expensive to buy German products, which would have a negative effect on GDP.
(Score: 3, Disagree) by Non Sequor on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:15AM
The unemployment rate in Greece is about 25% and government expenditures are about 20% of the Greek economy (which is about the same as Germany and the UK mind you) so if the government comes apart at the seems the unemployment rate is going to spike even higher.
So yeah having a large chunk of your population having no income results in cutting back on imports. It also creates a situation where it's more profitable to export food than to sell it within the country. These two things together result in mass starvation. On paper, the trade surplus seems like it should make things better, but you're decreasing the amount of food within the country.
Write your congressman. Tell him he sucks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:23AM
Your name matches your words today. Concluding that mass starvation will happen due to profit motive within close proximity is just silly. For sake of argument I will assume the rest up to that point. If anything the crime rate will go up. Many people will do almost anything to avoid dying. Most people will do anything to stop their family from dying, including killing the sonofabitch that would rather make a few euros instead of helping out his neighbor. When times are tough, people with resources, even well protected ones, have historically never done well.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Non Sequor on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:00AM
There's historical precedent in terms of past economic crises:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Irish_food_exports_during_Famine [wikipedia.org]
I wouldn't call it profit motive per se. The folks that would do the exporting would be desperately trying not to lose money. Mass rioting or an export ban or outright nationalization of agricultural output might preempt that possibility. Those responses may have varying degrees of effectiveness in preventing starvation. They also have the side effect of making it much more difficult for Greece to return to the international economy.
There isn't a safety valve here to release the pent up fuckedness.
Write your congressman. Tell him he sucks.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by TheRaven on Thursday July 02 2015, @07:47AM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by tibman on Thursday July 02 2015, @01:48PM
It looks like a lot has changed in the last ten years: http://www.fairtrade.net/workers-rights.html [fairtrade.net]
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:59PM
Because wealthy capitalists are well-known for taking care of the societies in which they live at the cost of profits.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by frojack on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:46AM
You would have to assume the Greeks are stupid enough to export food in the face of mass starvation.
I seriously doubt that just because they fell into a debt trap laid by the EU, you can assume that level of heartless-bastard-ism.
Also, once they swear off those crushing debt payments they may muddle through some how.
This has been done in more than a few South American countries, over the decades.
Some like Venezuela ending up as a basket case, others like Argentina, doing rather well.
And even Nicaragua is getting its act together.
Not saying there isn't going to be pain. Plenty of it.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Non Sequor on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:22AM
An export ban would make sense (I had left that part out), but the end game seems like it would need to require going through 10-20 years of closing off from the rest of the world and rebalancing to be more self-sufficient. The measures that might need to be taken just to enforce the policies and maintain order may also drive out tourism and shipping.
How do you go from a mostly service economy to focusing on internal subsistence though?
The Latin American defaults may not be comparable since I would think that debt would have been viewed as riskier when it was issued, but for Greece the issues is that their debt has been held by key European institutions (and existing bailout deals have resulted very little of the Greek debt being privately held). If the Greek debt isn't paid, those institutions may need to either stiff someone else downstream from them or the EU may need to print money. If the other shake elements in the European economy start coming loose, then it's not just Greece that's in trouble.
Greece being in the Euro is probably stabilizing the situation, but also preventing any progress towards a solution. But any progress towards a solution probably has "screw over lots of people" as an intermediate step so no one's rushing toward it. The Euro was a dumb idea.
Write your congressman. Tell him he sucks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:45AM
Risk has been neutralized. All the debt is in the hands of the boys in big pants who can afford the loss. The EU banking system will not collapse. The Greek people have lived beyond their very limited means and are now fucked. No one will starve to death. The rest of the world will take a small hit and keep on truckin''.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by lentilla on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:38AM
You would have to assume the Greeks are stupid enough to export food in the face of mass starvation.
The question really needs to be re-framed: not in terms of "the Greeks" but rather in terms of "those that own the farms".
As the AC above mentions "most people will do anything to stop their family from dying". What is the definition of "family" here? Children - sure. Immediate family - probably. Neighbours - maybe. The rest of "the Greeks"...? Well, there's an interesting quandary!
Let me ask that initial question from a different angle: if your immediate family was going hungry, wouldn't you feed them first, before feeding your distant countrymen?
There is another aspect to the "it's stupid to export food when people are going hungry" issue. It is likely that any country in this situation; still under rule of law; would implement rules saying food may not be exported. The problem with this is that it unfairly penalises people who produce food. Now their only market is local - and because locals don't have much money they don't make much money. Workers in other markets are still free to chase the comparatively lucrative foreign dollar. If this continues for too long, farmers end up walking off their farms and move into other industries.
I'm not sure how a "modern" society resets itself. The "best" way is for everybody to put their shoulder to the wheel and work hard until they are out of trouble - in effect "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". The problem here is that in order to do so, the people have to decouple themselves from previously held ideas about wealth. Everybody has to lend themselves to the common effort, in order that everybody may reap the rewards. That's how you keep the farmers on the farms - by compensating them as equally as the merchants who are earning foreign money.
That quirk of human nature - to protect their own tribe first - tends to work against completely co-operative solutions. Except in one circumstance: when everybody is in the same, dire, situation. People stranded in a lifeboat are all going to row together, and row hard. Rich or poor, saint or sinner, they all are "in the same boat" and they have the same prize in mind, or they will all share the same fate. Thus, the only way that everybody is going to fully cooperate is that everyone is equal. That usually seems to spell "revolution" and is invariably bloody. Otherwise those with wealth are going to use it to protect their immediate tribe before the rest of their countryfolk. Ironic: because the rich man rowing shoulder-to-shoulder with the homeless man will both get home all the sooner if they realise the real prize is survival and the chance to enjoy their future wealth.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Thursday July 02 2015, @05:31AM
I doubt that the situation is quite that dire such that life boat analogies come into play.
I don't know if Greece is a net exporter or importer of food, but I suspect they have trading partners who will be willing to work with them on a goods exchange basis.
Further, I don't really thing that big of a reset in their day to day economy is likely to be needed. Major foreign financed building projects perhaps, but their real problem has been their balance of trade [tradingeconomics.com]. How much of that is day to day survival rations, I have no idea. I suspect most is fuel and energy.
The thing is, I don't think any of that improves if Greece stays in the EU either. Not with those debt payments draining the economy.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @09:34AM
You would have to assume the Greeks are stupid enough to export food in the face of mass starvation
What's so stupid about that? It's called trade.
There are just so many olives you'd want to eat.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @10:01AM
Also, if they sell expensive food and buy cheaper food for that money, they actually have increased their food supply (not their food quality, but when starving, you don't care whether your food qualifies for a three-star restaurant; you care whether if fills your stomach and keeps you alive).
(Score: 2) by Geotti on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:04AM
Yes, and Yes.
Which questions are you responding to?
The ones I see talk about the Euro, not the EU, neither of which Greece is going to leave in either case of the referendum outcome [yanisvaroufakis.eu].
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday July 02 2015, @05:39AM
Or is the Euro better off without Greece? Or Greece without the Euro?
I admit, I glossed over the exact meaning implied by those question. I assumed it meant the EU, rather than the currency.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:06AM
comment
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:46AM
Don't tell me what to do.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:01AM
pay debts tho
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:46AM
Stop having sex with little boys and pay your debts you dirty Greeks!
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:50AM
The guy pulled a stunt, one you would suspect they might - "they" being those from the Middle East/East Med.
On the other hand, the Greeks don't trust him. Because they know their government is corrupt.
Eurozone, she's fucked either way.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:00AM
Those who have it easy, the best weather, dependable tourist revenue, don't work as hard and frequently aren't as successful as their less-advantaged peers. There's a strong sense of entitlement that's tough to overcome.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:02AM
Plus they like to rape little boys.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:13AM
Looks like you struck a nerve in some boy-humping Greek.
(Score: 2) by wisnoskij on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:15AM
Do if Greece goes bankrupt do they send debt collectors to reposes its stuff?
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:52AM
If Greece defaults, those creditors are TSOL. So they have a big incentive to work something out, but right now they are still playing brinkmanship. They may seize an aircraft or a cruise ship or two when they enter foreign countries. But the foreign financed hotels and resorts in Greece are worth a great deal, and I predict cooler heads will prevail.
This isn't the first time this has happened in the world.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:48AM
The only creditors left are central banks and hedgies. They can either afford the loss or have the ability to print to overcome it. They will let the Greeks go down in a blaze of self-immolation and then they will all move on with their lives.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:21AM
This is what happens when you use systemd.
First, your economy fails. Hard.
Then you fail to repay moneys owed to your friendly neighbors.
Or just uninstall systemd-grexit.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @10:04AM
Could someone please uninstall systemd-troll?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 04 2015, @01:41AM
That used to be a dependency, now it's an internal part of systemd
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @11:35AM
Thanks, systemd
(Score: 4, Interesting) by jmorris on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:39AM
This is only the start, there will be a last minute deal.... that won't hold and another after that until the pain becomes unbearable for everyone involved. Meanwhile the rest of the PIIGS gets closer to the same problem with the rest of the world lined up behind them. Everybody has pretty much the same problem. As Lady Thatcher said, "The problem with socialism is sooner or later you run out of other people's money." That happened a generation ago and everybody ignored the problem and started borrowing, printing money, inflating, anything but face up to the problem. But sooner or later math wins. Math always wins. Science, bitches!
At this point it is futile to look for a plan to escape, we passed that point so long ago none of the people who could have made those decisions are even in power any longer. The world is like a plane with three of four engines on fire, it is coming down, that part is certain, but heroic deeds could still make it a survivable landing instead of a roll and burn scenario. Not seeing many heroes on the world stage though so probably time to be putting yer head between your legs and kissing your butt goodbye.
Problem is Greece is a small country that was allowed to do truly stupid things while the EU permitted everybody to hide the problem until it became so bad there are no economically viable solutions. Were they the only offender the world could eat the loss but they are only the ones who drew the short straw and are going Kaboom! first; everybody is doing most of the same stupid things to a slightly less extent. Any solution offered to them must also be offered to everybody else in line and math simply won't allow it. The debts involved quickly exceed the wealth of the entire world and this is now painfully obvious to everyone who has looked at the numbers, meaning it can't be handwaved away anymore. Nobody is going to float 'loans' if they know (not worry, not believe, know) they not only won't be repaid but that the interest can't even be paid. Printing money just drags out and spreads the pain for a bit longer but doesn't change the reality that far more wealth has been promised than actually exists.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by FatPhil on Thursday July 02 2015, @07:56AM
And, like almost everything else that Thatcher said, she was full of shit. *Nothing* about socialism depends on putting yourself into *debt*. However, *capitalism* is almost entirely about going into debt (worded as getting investment from outsiders). Closer to the individual - who was encouraging everyone to buy their own flat and houses in the 80s (necessitating mortgages - AKA *debt*)? Indeed, Thatch again. She seemed to get off by having more and more of the country and world in debt.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 4, Informative) by TheRaven on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:45PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 5, Informative) by kaszz on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:43AM
German sponsors have something to say.. [spiegel.de]
Greece has introduced restrictions on capital and currency. Not something that encourage business or confidence by citizens. Some news agency also wrote that the Greece negotiators could allow to change the expenditures but not societal reforms. Which is kind of a necessity to deal with the situation.
A PhD in history with roots in Greece and lecturer in culture and society at a university says that the largest problem stems from the days of the freedom war from the Ottoman empire when the state apparatus that were created in the 1830s rested on a clientelic foundation, a mutual dependence between patron and client that took advantage of each others services. The first state administration consisted of politicians and diplomats that were called to the newly created state. But it also became a sector where the heroes from the freedom war were awarded for their efforts.
Until 1911 state employee positions was something up to the current government. Which in practice meant that the employees where replaced dependent on their votes and efforts during for example an election campaign. This changed in 1911 when Elefterios Venizelos, known as the father of modern Greece, proclaimed that the state positions were to be permanent employment. However the country were still on that rested on client principles and if one couldn't change who was employed then one had to create more positions instead.
The work of the politicians are far from something desirable at the moment - but without a sanitation of the political structures and organizations the country has no chance to make out of any crisis - economical, political or socially.
Wikipedia on the greek government-dept crisis [wikipedia.org]
And the government is making a fuss about paying 17 billion EUR and another 20 billion EUR before the end of the year. So for some it doesn't matter if the local banking is wrecked, they have theirs in Switzerland instead.
Bloomberg makes the analyze that structural reforms is what's needed:
The way out for Greece [bloombergview.com]
Ricardo Hausmann, Professor of the Practice of Economic Development at Harvard University:
Austerity is not Greece’s problem [project-syndicate.org]
In short, structural reforms is the key not lending or expenditures. So the government needs to according to the professors:
* Stop using state positions as a reward for political deeds or otherwise. Positions should be based on merit.
* Drop positions that isn't based on merit or an actual need.
* Invest in education and value competence.
* Encourage sectors that has economic potential, such as in technology (or it's application).
* Increase productivity.
* Attract globally competitive corporations.
* Reform and enforce tax collection.
Until this kind of structural reforms happen. Don't believe the crisis has been solved. In the meantime take a position in salted potato chip manufacturing and sales..
Probably some hirrible Englirish here ;-)
If so point it out so it can be improved.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @11:29AM
"U.S." corporations evade taxes through foreign subsidiaries. What is the solution for that? Send in the military to get the hidden tax money?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Saturday July 04 2015, @12:49AM
Change laws? US even got the Schweitzers to lift their banking secrecy. So US government can and thus the problem is that they will not take action. Likely because they get "donations". So send the military in to take care of those domestic donations?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday July 05 2015, @10:44PM
The Greek election has counted 90% of the votes and it resulted in NO at 61.5% and YES at 38.5%. That is Yes/No to agreeing with the rules that the creditors set last Sunday.
The EUR/USD exchange has fallen with circa 3% since June 25 so it will be interesting to see what the stock market will value this at. There will likely be a lot of turbulence until the Greek country sets structural reforms in place. It seems pointless to feed the Greek country until they get their act together but punishing the common people with austerity seems also pointless.
They are not really the problem.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:59AM
The Greek government held a referendum on whether to accept the deal. Germany^H^H^H the ECB told Greece to fuck off on a short extension to accommodate the referendum.
Summary writer mocks the Greek government for actually serving the desires of the Greek people by asking them what they want. Contrast that to the US TPP secret negotiations, secret agreements, and fuck all for what the people actually want.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by FatPhil on Thursday July 02 2015, @07:44AM
Bad eds.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by FakeBeldin on Thursday July 02 2015, @11:35AM
Or: The Greek government deliberately walked out of talks after five months and stalled progress by deliberately holding a referendum half a week after a deadline they promised to keep five months ago, when the deadline 5 months ago was postponed just to give them space.
If the Greek government wanted to know what the Greeks want, they could've come up with that idea 4.5 months ago. Doing it 2 days before their deadline expires is not an example of democracy. It's an example of playing chicken over the backs of your citizens.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @12:42PM
No, they could not have held the same referendum five month ago : during the negociations, all parties changed their position. But now the EU wants to force Tsipras to forget the promises he made when he got elected : no more cuts to pensions, no more VAT on basic needs (such as electricity). This is were the blockage is, and now Tsipras has few choices. So he is just saying : here is what the EU/IMF/ECB want. Do you accept that (and I think you should not) or do you accept to take the risk of defaulting (and *maybe* Greece exit from the Eurozone even if no procedure exists for that in the EU treaties)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Kharnynb on Thursday July 02 2015, @05:39AM
From an EU point of view, this has very little to do with greece any more, and a lot more with Italy(mostly) and Spain(less so currently).
Greece could be supported and held up, it's tiny, and the debts aren't really all that big concidering the size of Europe as a whole.
But we could never hold up Italy or Spain the same way we did for Greece, so now Greece will be germany's warning to them.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by FatPhil on Thursday July 02 2015, @07:49AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 5, Insightful) by mendax on Thursday July 02 2015, @06:34AM
What's happening to Greece is definitely a tragedy, perhaps on par with one of Sophocles' plays. Greece should never have been permitted to enter the Euro zone in the first place, but it happened because the Greek government lied about the state of its finances. But it was, the government continued with the same policies that caused the drachma to inflate before the adoption of the euro, and now the chickens have come home to roost. Governments can't adopt an inflationary fiscal policy when you can't print the money to pay the bills as is the case of the euro.
There is a reason why the governments of El Salvador, Panama, and Ecuador use the U.S. dollar instead of their own national currency. It keeps their governments fiscally honest and, therefore, they operate within their means. Zimbabwe, which formerly had the worst hyperinflation the world had ever seen, has dumped its own dollar in favor of convertible hard currency. The government itself uses the U.S. dollar for all its transactions. The result has been a stabilization of its economy. As I see it, the Greeks can do one of two things: it can dump the euro, start printing drachmas again and maintain the same fiscal policies; or it can keep the euro but drop out of the euro zone, default on its debts if they cannot be restructured, and start to do what they should have been doing all along in order to become creditworthy again. But as far as its membership in the euro zone goes, the Greeks are going to be out of it in the foreseeable future until the government there gets its act together-- after the current idiot/prime minister resigns.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @10:08AM
it happened because the Greek government lied about the state of its finances
… and everybody knew it and let it go.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by zeigerpuppy on Thursday July 02 2015, @07:21AM
We'd all be much better off without predatory banking.
Iceland played the right card, if casino banking gets you into the mess,
Jail the criminals and default. The banks take the hit while your basic services and infrastructure keep running.
Greece should have defaulted long ago.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @08:29AM
There are always two sides to a loan. If you don't take out a loan, then you are under no obligation to the lender. Even if you subscribe to the notion that Greece's previous administrations have illegally entered into the debt for their own benefit and left the population with the bill, understand that Greece could just default on those old loans now and vote for an administration which does not depend on loans but only spends what is collected through taxes. Greece does not want to do that. The people themselves, not their administration, want the Euro, but they also don't want to pay taxes, and they also don't want lower pensions and an efficient administration which does not employ people just to do them a favor.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @12:35PM
You seem to ignore that Greece is currently spending less than what it gets from taxes *before debt payments*. If they completely stop paying their lenders, they don't have a budget problem.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Thursday July 02 2015, @02:07PM
If that was true then they never would have needed a loan in the first place. But if you are saying they have resolved their original budget issue since the loan then that is great. However their new budget failed to include the cost of repaying that loan, which means the budget is still not correct. Which is exactly the original issue. The government is failing to create a budget that spends less than it takes in.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 1) by dboz87 on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:40PM
Which is why he used the word "currently". He is not talking about how they got into trouble, he is talking about what is keeping them there.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Thursday July 02 2015, @04:00PM
I addressed that. Even if the government is spending less than what it takes in as taxes it hasn't budgeted for paying its debt. If the debt is forgiven then they won't have a budget problem but not because they solved it themselves but because someone else solved it for them. Of course nobody would have a budget problem if they didn't have to pay for anything. That isn't a solution.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 02 2015, @03:27PM
That was the case right before they basically backed out of the reforms by voting Syriza into power. Since then, Greece couldn't achieve a primary surplus if they wanted to, and almost half the population doesn't even want to, which is my point.