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posted by janrinok on Monday July 06 2015, @01:49AM   Printer-friendly
from the burning-more-than-beds dept.

A year on from the abolition of the carbon price, greenhouse pollution from electricity generation has rebounded as Australia burns more brown coal to meet its power needs.

Carbon dioxide emissions from the national electricity grid jumped by 6.4 million tonnes in the financial year after the Abbott government repealed the scheme that required big industry to buy pollution permits, according to analysis by consultants Pitt & Sherry. The 4.3 per cent increase unwound part of an 11 per cent fall in emissions across the grid in the two years the carbon price was in place.

It can mainly be attributed to Victoria's four large brown coal generators running at greater capacity more often as the electricity they generate became cheaper. Output from the ageing Latrobe Valley quartet was up about nine per cent.

With the exception of burning oil for power – a practice favoured in Saudi Arabia – burning brown coal is the most greenhouse-intensive way to create electricity. Cutting emissions from the electricity supply is widely considered the central battle in tackling climate change in coming decades. It pumps out about a third of Australia's carbon pollution.

The new data comes as the federal cabinet is set to this month consider Australia's climate change targets beyond 2020 amid international pressure over Prime Minister Tony Abbott's contrarian stance on the issue.


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  • (Score: 3, Informative) by SpockLogic on Monday July 06 2015, @01:58AM

    by SpockLogic (2762) on Monday July 06 2015, @01:58AM (#205447)

    Remember folks, there is no such thing as "Clean Coal", its name is "Dirty Coal".

    --
    Overreacting is one thing, sticking your head up your ass hoping the problem goes away is another - edIII
    • (Score: 4, Informative) by kaszz on Monday July 06 2015, @02:04AM

      by kaszz (4211) on Monday July 06 2015, @02:04AM (#205450) Journal

      And Greenwashing..

    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday July 06 2015, @02:16AM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 06 2015, @02:16AM (#205451) Journal

      Unless it's sold as coal nanotubes [acs.org], that is.

      (grin)

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by frojack on Monday July 06 2015, @03:11AM

      by frojack (1554) on Monday July 06 2015, @03:11AM (#205467) Journal

      Actually, lignite (brown) coal can be scrubbed just as well as anthracite. I'd be surprised if the Australian's were behind the curve on scrubbing technology, but I would also be surprised if they had no such technology at all.

      The Germans are among the leaders [rwe.com] in scrubbing and CO2 sequestration of lignite coal plants, but even their plants aren't as clean as the US Lignite plants (western states).

      You simply can't hand wave the words "Clean Coal" away any more.

      --
      No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by K_benzoate on Monday July 06 2015, @03:37AM

        by K_benzoate (5036) on Monday July 06 2015, @03:37AM (#205473)

        I can, because it's a propaganda term.

        I won't disagree that there's been major improvements, but when the coal industry came up with "clean coal" they were selling the idea that they had made coal consequence-free. "Cleaner coal" might be more accurate. That's progress and should be commended but it's nowhere near as clean as solar, wind, geothermal, or nuclear. It's not even as clean as natgas. It's cheap, we have a lot of it, it employs a lot of people, but they oversold the cleanliness angle for PR. It's flagrantly dishonest, which is what rubs environmentalists so raw (but what doesn't?).

        They could have been honest about the impacts of coal, forthcoming with the very real consequences, and willing to have a discussion about the cost/benefit equation--include an admission that this must be a technology in its twilight years if we are serious about slowing, halting, or reversing the damage to the climate. It's a complex issue, but it's been reduced to a brain-dead binary choice between economy/jobs vs environment/climate change. All of those things are important, but "clean coal" propaganda isn't candid about the nuance and very real trade offs that are made when we decide how to produce energy.

        --
        Climate change is real and primarily caused by human activity.
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Monday July 06 2015, @04:47AM

          by frojack (1554) on Monday July 06 2015, @04:47AM (#205482) Journal

          You might want to read up on that a bit. The lignite clean coal process doesn't even burn the lignite. Its gassified first, co2 extracted then the gas is burned.

          Is it ever going to be as clean as gas? Probably not. There is a lot of crap in coal that just isn't in gas.
          And I suspect there has been some foot dragging in Australia, simply because of the costs, or political pressure from the coal industry or what ever. (There was a lot of that in the US too).

          Clean coal term was not an industry buzword. It was actually a government program forced on the industry. (Which, as we all know precludes any possibility of hoodwinking the public, or selling a pig in a poke.) Heh.

          --
          No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
          • (Score: 2) by compro01 on Monday July 06 2015, @06:41AM

            by compro01 (2515) on Monday July 06 2015, @06:41AM (#205503)

            The lignite clean coal process doesn't even burn the lignite. Its gassified first, co2 extracted then the gas is burned.

            Depends on who's "clean coal" system you're talking about. Saskpower's clean coal system doesn't involve gassification. It's strictly emissions capture.

        • (Score: 2, Troll) by BK on Monday July 06 2015, @05:23AM

          by BK (4868) on Monday July 06 2015, @05:23AM (#205496)

          I can, because it's a propaganda term.

          I won't disagree that there's been major improvements, but when the coal industry came up with "clean coal" they were selling the idea that they had made coal consequence-free.

          Look, if you want to call B.S. on "Clean Coal", I'll support you so long as you denounce "Renewable Energy" and "Climate Change". These are propaganda terms that massively misrepresent truths that everyone should know.

          "Renewable Energy" falsely implies "free energy" and that that use is without consequence and is infinite.

          Solar Energy - Not renewable. The Sun will run out of hydrogen and even helium which we cannot renew. Solar energy is, at best, passive recovery of sunk cost at the GSP level. At worse, it denies solar inputs into the atmosphere's conduction/convection cycles. Which causes climate to change.

          [Admittedly, I'll be dead by the time solar energy needs to be renewed, but the label is misleading propaganda all the same.]

          Wind Energy - Not renewable. This is just climate altering harvesting of convective solar energy. ++Consequences, though admittedly, nobody has modeled them because we just would rather not know... Do you know how to renew the wind?

          "Climate Change" is a propaganda term replacing "Global Warming" because some places haven't been warming much. Climate Change implies negative consequence because everyone knows change... any change... is bad. Honestly, "Global Warming" was a more honest description of the bit we're worried about.

          Propaganda.

          Say it with me: The use of "Renewable Energy" will cause "Climate Change".

          I also denounce propaganda!

          That said, "Renewable Energy" sources may be the most horrible forms of energy apart from the others, but the term is still evil propaganda.

          --
          ...but you HAVE heard of me.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Monday July 06 2015, @07:08AM

            by frojack (1554) on Monday July 06 2015, @07:08AM (#205504) Journal

            At worse, it denies solar inputs into the atmosphere's conduction/convection cycles. Which causes climate to change.

            This is just climate altering harvesting of convective solar energy.

            These are the dark corners we prefer not to look into, but which MUST have some effect somewhere down the line.
            We tend to dismiss this out of hand, saying that one more windmill or one more acre of solar cells can't make any difference.
            But mention one more smoke stack, and everybody comes unglued.

            When wind patterns and velocities are permanently changed over a mountain ridge, you have to allow for some eventual impact. Not just there, but down wind for many many miles.
            And when a boat load of insolation never reaches the desert floor or the hillside, and instead is whisked away as electricity, that has to have an effect down the line. Maybe some of that is good, reducing the heat island effect. But who knows?

            --
            No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Absolutely.Geek on Monday July 06 2015, @09:32AM

            by Absolutely.Geek (5328) on Monday July 06 2015, @09:32AM (#205532)

            I call BS on your whole rant.

            Solar Energy - Not renewable. The Sun will run out of hydrogen and even helium which we cannot renew. Solar energy is, at best, passive recovery of sunk cost at the GSP level. At worse, it denies solar inputs into the atmosphere's conduction/convection cycles. Which causes climate to change.

            Yes solar is non-renewable on galatic time scales. But on anything even resembling human time scales it is very renewable....in fact it is inexhaustable. It just sounds like you just want to have a cry about something.

            Do you know how to renew the wind?

            Sure do; what you need to do is spin your planet around; this creates alternating hot/cold cycles. These cycles (lets call them the day/night cycle) will cause differential heating; this will cause your atmosphere to increase in pressure in some areas and decrease in others. These differences or pressure gradients will cause the atmosphere to flow from high pressure to low pressure. The effects can become quite complex but you get the general idea.

            "Climate Change" is a propaganda term replacing "Global Warming" because some places haven't been warming much. Climate Change implies negative consequence because everyone knows change... any change... is bad. Honestly, "Global Warming" was a more honest description of the bit we're worried about.

            Ok I have to agree with you on this one; it was originally "global warming" then we had "climate change" to make it easier for the general public to digest....I say screw them; let them learn something for a change.

            Propaganda.

            Say it with me: The use of "Renewable Energy" will cause "Climate Change".

            I also denounce propaganda!

            The use of energy will cause climate change. Best if we just stop all energy use right now!!!!!

            That said, "Renewable Energy" sources may be the most horrible forms of energy apart from the others, but the term is still evil propaganda.

            Really.....coal is horrible dirty shit; have you ever been to a coal fired power station? They are not clean places; natural gas plants by comparison is lovely, what great stuff to burn compared to coal very little in the way of filth. Solar by comparison; clean super clean, once the system was installed on my uncle's roof and the constructon area had been cleaned up..no more mess.

            And before you point out that solar maunfacturing is a source of pollution; hvae you ever been to a foundry where the parts for large generators and boilers are made....also not very clean places.

            --
            Don't trust the police or the government - Shihad: My mind's sedate.
            • (Score: 1) by Absolutely.Geek on Wednesday July 08 2015, @12:23AM

              by Absolutely.Geek (5328) on Wednesday July 08 2015, @12:23AM (#206284)

              Been modded Troll twice now.....wonder who is doing it.

              Calling BS != Troll.
              I think the original post was far more trollish; and I usually don't feed the trolls.

              --
              Don't trust the police or the government - Shihad: My mind's sedate.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by RedBear on Monday July 06 2015, @09:38AM

            by RedBear (1734) on Monday July 06 2015, @09:38AM (#205534)

            I can, because it's a propaganda term.
            I won't disagree that there's been major improvements, but when the coal industry came up with "clean coal" they were selling the idea that they had made coal consequence-free.

            Look, if you want to call B.S. on "Clean Coal", I'll support you so long as you denounce "Renewable Energy" and "Climate Change". These are propaganda terms that massively misrepresent truths that everyone should know.
            "Renewable Energy" falsely implies "free energy" and that that use is without consequence and is infinite.
            Solar Energy - Not renewable. The Sun will run out of hydrogen and even helium which we cannot renew. Solar energy is, at best, passive recovery of sunk cost at the GSP level. At worse, it denies solar inputs into the atmosphere's conduction/convection cycles. Which causes climate to change.
            [Admittedly, I'll be dead by the time solar energy needs to be renewed, but the label is misleading propaganda all the same.]
            Wind Energy - Not renewable. This is just climate altering harvesting of convective solar energy. ++Consequences, though admittedly, nobody has modeled them because we just would rather not know... Do you know how to renew the wind?
            "Climate Change" is a propaganda term replacing "Global Warming" because some places haven't been warming much. Climate Change implies negative consequence because everyone knows change... any change... is bad. Honestly, "Global Warming" was a more honest description of the bit we're worried about.
            Propaganda.
            Say it with me: The use of "Renewable Energy" will cause "Climate Change".
            I also denounce propaganda!
            That said, "Renewable Energy" sources may be the most horrible forms of energy apart from the others, but the term is still evil propaganda.

            I know I shouldn't bother but, really? Are you really in all seriousness sitting there and telling us that solar and wind energy are not infinitely renewable in a very practical sense within the bounds of the probable time period during which the human race will exist on this planet?

            As long as the sun shines (billions of years) and the Earth orbits the sun and spins on its axis we will have plenty of wind and solar, and hydro too. Yes, will be extracting some kinetic energy from the wind and it will have some effect on weather patterns eventually. But weather patterns are getting more extreme due to global warming so the net effect will probably be a wash for a long, long time.

            The term "Renewable Energy" being propaganda just because of the eventual non-renewability of the sun itself isn't even in the same multi-verse as the B.S. propaganda level of terms like "Clean Coal".

            I swear, I've read your post over and over and still can't figure out whether I've just been trolled by someone being very cleverly facetious in support of renewable energy or trolled by someone who really believes they've just made some kind of valid logical statement against it. Totally stumped. I can't even.

            --
            ¯\_ʕ◔.◔ʔ_/¯ LOL. I dunno. I'm just a bear.
            ... Peace out. Got bear stuff to do. 彡ʕ⌐■.■ʔ
            • (Score: 2, Disagree) by BK on Monday July 06 2015, @12:48PM

              by BK (4868) on Monday July 06 2015, @12:48PM (#205594)

              I know I shouldn't bother but, really? Are you really in all seriousness sitting there and telling us that solar and wind energy are not infinitely renewable

              The word you want is "Available". Renewable means something else. Quick, name a form of energy that is, in fact, renewable by humans.

              The term "Renewable Energy" being propaganda

              It is used to tell a lie that makes people believe someone's truth. Or to tell a lie in a way that implies something that could be true. Or something. 1984.

              I swear, I've read your post over and over and still can't figure out whether I've just been trolled by

              You stepped into the middle a pedantic argument about whether the terms used to describe energy in popular media are properly descriptive or misleading propaganda. Unlike so many other discussions around energy policy, it doesn't matter where you stand on energy policy or climate issues, but on whether you actually understand the nuanced meanings of English words used to describe it all.

              --
              ...but you HAVE heard of me.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @06:37PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @06:37PM (#205780)

              I know I shouldn't bother but, really? Are you really in all seriousness sitting there and telling us that solar and wind energy are not infinitely renewable in a very practical sense within the bounds of the probable time period during which the human race will exist on this planet?

              This definition opens another can of worms. There is enough uranium and thorium available to power humanity for a least a couple of hundred years (ok, in reality a couple of thousands) - however we fully expect to have working fusion before this happens. This means that along the same reasoning nuclear (fission) are for all intents and purposes inexhaustible.

              I personally prefer the phrase "practically inexhaustible" over "renewable".

              • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday July 07 2015, @04:42AM

                by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 07 2015, @04:42AM (#205989) Journal

                You may "we fully expect to have working fusion before this happens", but you shouldn't feel too certain. The universe may be so set up that only large lumps of gravitationally compressed matter spontaneously fuse. One *hopes* that this isn't the way things are set up, but to be certain seems to me to be excessive hubris.

                We *know* that solar energy systems can be made to work. We *know* that wind power systems can be made to work. We *expect* that reasonably good storage systems are developable. But human scale fusion reactors? Expect may the the correct verb to use, but it's an optimistic assumption. And we don't know what the hidden costs will be. I *really* hope that we can develop decent fusion reactors suitable for powering apartment complexes, but I'm not at all sure that anything stronger than "hope" is a reasonable term to use.

                --
                Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 07 2015, @11:42PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 07 2015, @11:42PM (#206276)

                  (Same AC)

                  Well, if it comes to that we will be unable to build human scale fusion we still will have an extra couple of hundred years of research - and by that time we probably have built either a space elevator and/or a launch loop and therefore can launch solar power satellites cheaply..

                  Regardless nuclear is a decent stopgap until something better comes along (and current solar and wind still falls short)

          • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday July 06 2015, @03:17PM

            by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Monday July 06 2015, @03:17PM (#205657) Homepage
            > Solar Energy - Not renewable

            A completely disingenuous argument. The sun is, and will continue to be, generating energy at a pretty much constant rate until long past the expected survival of our species. And its deviation from that is not, as you seem to think, that it will burn out and fade as it runs out of fuel. It will not - it will burn hotter and hotter, until the earth is utterly uninhabitable, as all the water will be boiled off into space.

            Repeat after me - the sun we are nearest to will never fail to provide humans with energy, the only way humans will see Sol stop providing energy is if we've found another sun to be nearest to and looking at it through a telescope.
            --
            Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @02:02PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @02:02PM (#205623)

      The mod chains on climate articles are simply hilarious. Keep it classy SN.

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by coolgopher on Monday July 06 2015, @02:48AM

    by coolgopher (1157) on Monday July 06 2015, @02:48AM (#205459)

    Please continue to shame us internationally. Seriously, please do it.
    We need it to help get rid of the current throwback government at our next election in a year or so.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @03:02AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @03:02AM (#205462)

      You think you have a government and elections. Upsidedown savages, bend over to receive American peacebringers. You will be civilized and you will provide fuel for the American war effort.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Monday July 06 2015, @03:15AM

      by frojack (1554) on Monday July 06 2015, @03:15AM (#205468) Journal

      If there was ever an area more ripe for solar power......
      Open Google Earth, zoom in anywhere in Australia that is brown. Build it there.

      --
      No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @04:04AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 06 2015, @04:04AM (#205477)

        Just have to legislate around NIMBY

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday July 06 2015, @05:26AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 06 2015, @05:26AM (#205497) Journal

          Just have to legislate around NIMBY

          You mean... Abbot considers outback [smh.com.au] his backyard? Interesting and plausible.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Monday July 06 2015, @06:33AM

        by coolgopher (1157) on Monday July 06 2015, @06:33AM (#205502)

        This used to be my take on it as well, until I read something by Elon Musk somewhere (can't seem to find a reference at the moment) discussing the cost of transmitting the electricity from place of generation to place of use. Looking at that analysis it actually made me question whether micro generation will simply make such large projects not financially viable in the nearish future. It now seems inevitable that the grid will shift from large-generation/small-use to a small-generation/small-use type of scenario, which will seriously throw decades-old economic models into a tailspin.

        All that said, there can't be many more places more suited to solar collection than the red outback...

        • (Score: 2, Disagree) by curunir_wolf on Monday July 06 2015, @01:07PM

          by curunir_wolf (4772) on Monday July 06 2015, @01:07PM (#205602)
          Yes, it costs money to transport the power - it's why we use AC instead of DC (it can be transported further with less loss of current). Be that as it may, Musk's numbers are just marketing to sell batteries. Duh.
          --
          I am a crackpot
          • (Score: 2) by gnuman on Monday July 06 2015, @04:52PM

            by gnuman (5013) on Monday July 06 2015, @04:52PM (#205724)

            Yes, it costs money to transport the power - it's why we use AC instead of DC (it can be transported further with less loss of current).

            That is plainly wrong. DC is far superior at large distance transmission. The ONLY reason AC is used in transmission lines is historical. It is much easier to build transformers for AC, than DC currents. AC only requires a passive transformer to translate voltage. DC requires a switch to chop the voltage across a transformer - that's what is an isolated DC-DC converter. AC is also much easier to make motors with.

            But as far long haul transmission goes, DC is far superior.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current [wikipedia.org]

            • (Score: 2) by curunir_wolf on Tuesday July 07 2015, @11:43AM

              by curunir_wolf (4772) on Tuesday July 07 2015, @11:43AM (#206077)
              Well that's certainly interesting. Distribution in general is still more economical with AC - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents, [wikipedia.org] but regardless of that, Musk's numbers are still marketing bullshit designed to sell batteries. I can see small, self-contained breeder reactors as a decent way to provide distributed power generation, but the current way of subsidizing solar panels is just another way to shift costs from the rich to the poor.
              --
              I am a crackpot
        • (Score: 2) by frojack on Monday July 06 2015, @05:30PM

          by frojack (1554) on Monday July 06 2015, @05:30PM (#205744) Journal

          Well we do know what Musk is selling, and I'm not sure this is his area of expertise.

          However, I too believe that local generation, (with grid inter-tie), has a lot of resiliency and flexibility.

          Micro Nuclear [wikipedia.org] might make more sense to satisfy the grid stabilization needs where there is a bunch of solar or wind power with the resultant fluctuation in supply, plus the need for night supply. There are a lot of these designs, but the security issue is going to be an issue.

          Basically it comes down to three main issues: Storage, Storage, and Storage.

          The only storage that scales is Hydro dams, and everybody suddenly cares very deeply about drowned acreage on lands they would never otherwise ever even visit.

          --
          No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
          • (Score: 2) by coolgopher on Tuesday July 07 2015, @12:57AM

            by coolgopher (1157) on Tuesday July 07 2015, @12:57AM (#205930)

            I wish you luck convincing the general public that Micro Nuclear is a good idea. If ever there was a NIMBY-generator, it was that...

            Your three issues are right on the money though, and it really is an interesting time to live in.

        • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Tuesday July 07 2015, @04:51AM

          by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday July 07 2015, @04:51AM (#205991) Journal

          I think it was where he was trying to sell excess Tesla batteries to power homes. Any my take on this was "maybe". Do be aware that he's trying to use economies of scale to cut the cost of his cars. Also to make them more convenient to use (in this case more ways to charge them). And I can think of a lot of use cases that this wouldn't work in (though perhaps there are ways around that, like putting overhead solar chargers on all the roads). Consider that many people live in apartment buildings, and don't have their own roof. And many businesses use power at a rate grossly in excess of their use of area.

          But perhaps if you expand "local" to be an entire metropolitan area then local power generation would be more reasonable, though that would tend to surround metropolitan areas with "shadow belts" where nothing grows but mushrooms because not enough sunlight gets through to the grounds.

          --
          Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
  • (Score: 1) by sjwt on Monday July 06 2015, @12:23PM

    by sjwt (2826) on Monday July 06 2015, @12:23PM (#205589)

    Well lets see, the carbon tax came in at a time we where debating if we were or were not in a recession, now in the last two years we have had 4% population growth and 7% economic growth, maybe that has something to do with the increases in electricity, add in a extremely hot summer followed by a cold winter and you have even more reasons for a 4% increase in electricity, but hey i'm sure it's all down to the price of electricity falling cents in the dollar..

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 07 2015, @12:48AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 07 2015, @12:48AM (#205926)

      If you start talking about adjusting for growth when you are looking at emissions totals it is a sure sign that you have missed the entire fucking point. The 2020 targets are about absolute emission totals, not emissions per capita.