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posted by cmn32480 on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:09PM   Printer-friendly
from the like-deja-vu-all-over-again dept.

Purchasers of the Philips Hue "smart" ambient lighting system are finding out that the new firmware pushed out by the manufacturer has cut off access to previously-supported lightbulbs.

Philips uses ZigBee, which should mean any bulbs compatible with this standard will work with its Hue products. Not anymore. The firmware update removes this support, limiting this "open, global" standard to Philips' own bulbs and those it has designated as "Friends of Hue."

When owners complained that they had been given the old bait-and-switch on products they already paid for, Philips issued this statement:

While the Philips Hue system is based on open technologies we are not able to ensure all products from other brands are tested and fully interoperable with all of our software updates. For guaranteed compatibility you need to use Philips Hue or certified Friends of Hue products.

The Philips Hue is a premium-priced LED lighting system, but the rapid pace of LED efficiency gains has started to leave them behind. Cheaper competitors have started to significantly undercut Hue's pricing. Maybe this lockout is more about pricing protection than it is about quality protection


Original Submission

Related Stories

Follow-Up: Philips Backs Down Over Light Bulb DRM 45 comments

Philips has backed down over its plan to keep out third-party bulbs from its Hue smart lighting system:

Dutch electronics giant Philips has been forced into an embarrassing U-turn over its plans to lock out third-party suppliers of light bulbs for its Hue smart lighting system. [...] Philips' customers have staged a very noisy protest at the move and the firm has backed down. In a statement on the Hue Facebook page, Philips gave a somewhat ungracious explanation about why it had reversed its earlier decision.

"We recently upgraded the software for Philips Hue to ensure the best seamless connected lighting experience for our customers. This change was made in good faith," Philips said. "However, we under-estimated the impact this would have on a small number of customers who use lights from other brands which could not be controlled by the Philips Hue software. In view of the sentiment expressed by our customers, we have decided to reverse the software upgrade so that lights from other brands continue to work as they did before with the Philips Hue system."

Previously: Lightbulb DRM: Philips Locks Purchasers Out Of 3rd-Party Bulbs With Firmware Update


Original Submission

Schneier: How the IoT Limits Consumer Choice 25 comments

Bruce Schneier writes in The Atlantic:

In theory, the Internet of Things—the connected network of tiny computers inside home appliances, household objects, even clothing—promises to make your life easier and your work more efficient. These computers will communicate with each other and the Internet in homes and public spaces, collecting data about their environment and making changes based on the information they receive. In theory, connected sensors will anticipate your needs, saving you time, money, and energy.

Except when the companies that make these connected objects act in a way that runs counter to the consumer's best interests...

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:20PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:20PM (#276873)

    Why the fuck do your light bulbs need a computer? I never got this.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:27PM (#276881)

      Because there are some pretty cool presets you can create for your home lighting. Automatic lights on/off, dimming at night, for color changing bulbs you can have preset color schemes for fun mood lighting. I personally have none of it, but I see the appeal.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:30AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:30AM (#276903)

        It would be nice to have my entire house work like f.lux [justgetflux.com] does with my computer screens; white sunlight temperature light during the day and orange/red warm light at night. I'm not totally convinced of the claims that it makes you sleep better but it definitely is more comfortable to look at.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:07AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:07AM (#276971)

          Having windows, and using bulbs with a low color temperature (search for "red party bulb"), would achieve this effect. During the day, bluish light would come through the windows. I know, I know, some dwellings [wikipedia.org] don't have windows.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:54AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:54AM (#276914)

      I want to never have to touch a light-switch again.

      When I walk in a room, it lights up. When I leave, the lights dim to black. When I lie down in my bed at night, the lights dim to black and when I wake and sit up, the lights ramp back up.

      In the rare case where I need the lights to do something out of the ordinary I want to just gesture with my hand and make and have it automagically do what I want.

      All those things require a computer behind the scenes.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by snick on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:59AM

        by snick (1408) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:59AM (#276916)

        In the rare case where I need the lights to do something out of the ordinary I want to just gesture with my hand and make and have it automagically do what I want.

        Got you covered [amazon.com].

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:27AM

        by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:27AM (#276924)

        It gets a lot more complex wen you start considering the vast array of activities once you get on your bed.
        Setting up a computer to identify them all reliably is a lot more complex than putting a dimmer somewhere. Especially if preventing accidental "full lights" requires pointing a camera at your bed "for the lights only".

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:50AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:50AM (#276944)

          > the vast array of activities once you get on your bed

          It isn't a case of identifying all the "activities" on your bed.
          You only need to identify the cases where you want the lights to react.

          > requires pointing a camera at your bed "for the lights only".

          You don't need a "camera" you just need 3d-mapping like the infrared dotmap used by the kinect.

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by q.kontinuum on Wednesday December 16 2015, @06:46AM

          by q.kontinuum (532) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @06:46AM (#276996) Journal

          It's not only about identifying the activities. Some people prefer certain activities in the dark, others prefer lights on.
          In some cases the decision might depend on the perceived attractiveness of the other person(s) or creature(s) involved.
          Probably this is a good case for a webcam pointed at your bed, and Google matching the image to your browser histrory to identify your personal taste.

          Also, Google needs to analyse who earns the money to decide whos preference take priority, right? Because it might get difficult to find compromises in case of conflicts.

          Hand gestures I'd really hate. It would just be weird to start gesturing in certain situations.
          Personally, I'd prefer a server in my house controlling electric devices, and a smartphone-app to override/pre-set it. The connection an be completely over intranet, and even if the phone data is snooped upon it will not contain any juicy details.

          --
          Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @09:09AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @09:09AM (#277020)

            > Hand gestures I'd really hate. It would just be weird to start gesturing in certain situations.

            Compared to getting up and walking to a wallswitch, or getting out a smartphone/tablet?

            Yeah, so weird...

            • (Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Wednesday December 16 2015, @10:09AM

              by q.kontinuum (532) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @10:09AM (#277027) Journal

              Exactly. As we are discussing the bedroom situation, my smartphone is usually next to the bed on the bedside-table, so no big deal. Watching out to not do the wrong moves to avoid accidentally toggling the light (if the recognition algorithm is too lenient), or to do the same gesture over and over again until it is recognized properly, like a rain-dance, (if the recognition algorithm is too strict) would be weirder to me.

              --
              Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:23AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:23AM (#276923)

      If you want your house to look lived-in while you're on vacation, this could do that.
      Unlike the outlet-centric timers, these will also work with ceiling lights.
      Has a high amount of variability as well.
      Add some controlled table radios for audio accompaniment.

      In normal everyday life, like you, I don't see computer control of lights being especially useful.

      .
      I was listening to a guy being interviewed on the radio and he said "Hold on. I just had a blackout."
      The interviewer got concerned about the guy's health.
      "Oh, not that."
      "Ah, you hadn't moved in a while and the passive infrared motion detector turned off the lights in that room."

      WRT lighting, that's the kind of thing I see as (possibly) useful.

      -- gewg_

    • (Score: 1) by Francis on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:24AM

      by Francis (5544) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:24AM (#276980)

      That's because you don't own them. I use 2 colors, the timer and dimmer. With other options I would need at least 2 fixtures for the colors, a timer and dimmer. A whole lot less convenient. Plus you would need bulbs that handle the colors and those aren't that cheap.

    • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday December 16 2015, @11:19PM

      by Hyperturtle (2824) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @11:19PM (#277379)

      You are a wise person. I never would buy these because you don't need a computer, you need a cell phone and an apple ID or something to then run the DRM on your bulbs...

      No thanks. I can't see why this is attractive, unless perhaps one already is signed up for all of the rest. My desktop shouldnt need any of that and I would hope I'd need nothing more than a windows 3.1 type interface to configure a few values for the hue of color or a VGA color slider...

      but that isnt web 2.0 i guess.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by unzombied on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:20PM

    by unzombied (4572) on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:20PM (#276874)

    Maybe this lockout is more about pricing protection than it is about quality protection

    Maybe. How'd that work out for the coffee pod manufacturer?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:36AM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:36AM (#276906) Journal

      Maybe. How'd that work out for the coffee pod manufacturer?
       
      Incredibly well, unfortunately.
       
      $13.9 billion dollars worth of well, to be exact.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by unzombied on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:03AM

        by unzombied (4572) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:03AM (#276933)

        Incredibly well indeed! At least for a while. This article [fool.com] suggests they're not doing so good now.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by davester666 on Wednesday December 16 2015, @06:45AM

          by davester666 (155) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @06:45AM (#276995)

          The company is in the middle of being acquired for $14 billion...even though they aren't "doing so good now"

          • (Score: 1) by unzombied on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:35AM

            by unzombied (4572) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:35AM (#277012)
            So DRMing lightbulbs is a profitable move, if coffee pods are a fair comparison.
            • (Score: 2) by davester666 on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:41AM

              by davester666 (155) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:41AM (#277015)

              Certainly. There are a LOT of stupid people out there.

    • (Score: 1) by Francis on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:34AM

      by Francis (5544) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:34AM (#277011)

      I went ninja over keurig in large part due to the former allowing me to use any coffee I want to. Those kcups are ridiculously expensive.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Absolutely.Geek on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:26PM

    by Absolutely.Geek (5328) on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:26PM (#276879)

    Hue will be relegated to niche product status.

    --
    Don't trust the police or the government - Shihad: My mind's sedate.
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Archon V2.0 on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:36PM

      by The Archon V2.0 (3887) on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:36PM (#276884)

      > Hue will be relegated to niche product status.

      It isn't already?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:07AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:07AM (#276891)

        Niche enough that it doesn't even have an entry on wikipedia it seems...?

        The Philips Hue is a premium-priced LED lighting system

        I fitted every light in mouse house with an LED bulb or some form or other when I moved. How on earth do you may lightbulbs proprietary? And according to wikipedia zigbee is some sort of WLAN system, was is this, photons over IP or something...?

        Can anyone tell me what the deal is here as I think I'm completely unable to understand how someone would introduce a non-proprietary lightbulb and then somehow make it proprietary.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:13AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:13AM (#276896)

          Apparently the Philips controller no longer talks to third-party bulbs using the ZigBee standard.

          They claim the move is designed to ensure that all “Friends of Hue” bulbs support the same features [meethue.com].

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Francis on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:24AM

            by Francis (5544) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:24AM (#277009)

            Probably time to complain to the AG, about the false advertising. It wasn't a selling point for me, but it was printed on the box. And people did buy it for the support.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:28AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:28AM (#276981)

          Yeah they probably introduced the incompatibility at a higher level. Getting ZigBee radios to speak something else would be needlessly difficult (like getting a Bluetooth device to work with Wi-Fi). Also the Philips web site says they still use ZigBee.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:42AM

      by Nerdfest (80) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:42AM (#276910)

      I had mistrust for them with their initial "Apple only" launch. It's rarely a good sign.

      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:16PM

        by Bot (3902) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:16PM (#277081) Journal

        - apple only policy, locked out of light bulbs
        - "everything but apple policy", locked out of eden

        and people worry about black cats...

        --
        Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:45AM

      by Nerdfest (80) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:45AM (#276927)

      They do seem to have the Sony attitude towards standards.

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:43PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 15 2015, @11:43PM (#276886)

    I am thinking of sending them a note explaining that while I was interested in their various (passive) LED offerings in the past, I no longer am.

    I actually spent about $40 on a Phillips LED light bulb (model 9E26A19DCAAAA) in the past year and a half.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:22AM

      by frojack (1554) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:22AM (#276900) Journal

      Trying to invoke lockins the minute you notice people are eating your market share is virtually never successful.

      I'm not aware of having purchased any Phillips LED bulbs in the past, but I assure you I won't in the future.
      I've replaced just about every incandescent and compact florescent bulb in my house. I'm still waiting
      for certain size bulbs that just don't seem to be available in anything but halogen. underneath your
      hanging microwave, or above your bathroom mirrors).

      I haven't a single use for color tune-able light bulbs, and am not likely to look for one.

      --
      No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:48AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:48AM (#276912)

        > Trying to invoke lockins the minute you notice people are eating your market share is virtually never successful.

        I've been holding of buying any smart bulbs, waiting for Philiips to do a 2nd generation of theirs with increased lux and decreased prices. Instead of competing based on value they took this route. I guess that means I should give up on waiting for their stuff to get better and just go with one of the lesser known brands.

    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:25AM

      by takyon (881) <{takyon} {at} {soylentnews.org}> on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:25AM (#276902) Journal

      There are $5 and $10 bulbs on the market (although the 60 W versions are a little pricier than 40 W). I'm guessing you went for that one because it is dimmable?

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:06AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:06AM (#276917)

        No, I went for if because it fit in a weird ceiling fan fixture, when CFL bulbs did not. I also got 2 incandescent bulbs at the time.

        Power draw went from 120W (3x40W) ->88W.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by mmcmonster on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:52AM

      by mmcmonster (401) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @12:52AM (#276913)

      Cree is eating up the market in LED bulbs. They sell out of Home Depot and are good quality and have lots of sizes. They aren't the best, but they're pushing the price point down.

      I built my house 4 years ago and it was almost all CFL bulbs at the time (incandescents for dimmable and a few odd shapes were ). As they are dieing (which is taking a painfully long time) I'm replacing them with Cree LEDs.

      Phillips has a very good name in LED technology. It's a shame they have to pull the DRM card. I would consider getting a few computer controlled bulbs (for the kids bedrooms) but I want to use an open technology so I know that the software won't be outdated while the bulb is still in the socket.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:13AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:13AM (#276921)

        I want to use an open technology so I know that the software won't be outdated while the bulb is still in the socket.

        Exactly.

        These things have a rated life of 22.5 years (based on 3 hours of use per day). There (almost) no way that they will be doing firmware updates for that long.

        I will be sure to mention that when I call Philips tomorrow (they don't seem to list an e-mail address [lhttp]. Maybe I can send them a letter instead...

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:42PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:42PM (#277098)

          So I was told I called an industrial support number, and was told to call a consumer number at 1-800-555-0050.

          When I finally reached somebody in the Hue lighting department, they had no idea why I was calling despite not owning a Hue system. This is reflected in their new update [meethue.com]:

          Q. Why have you reversed your strategy?
          We underestimated the impact this would have upon the small number of our customers who currently use uncertified lights from other brands in the Philips Hue system. We have decided to continue to enable our customers who wish to integrate these uncertified products within their Philips Hue system.

          They don't yet appear to understand the damage they are doing to the Philips brand as a whole.

  • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:16AM

    by MostCynical (2589) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @02:16AM (#276936) Journal

    retro-fitting a house with centrally-controllable electric devices is painful and expensive.

    "Standards" for home automation are a joke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_automation [wikipedia.org]
    http://www.digitaltrends.com/home/zigbee-vs-zwave-vs-insteon-home-automation-protocols-explained/ [digitaltrends.com]

    These LEDs at least pretended to play nicely with others, and were wireless.

    The pity is, that no private company will want to be undercut by cheap import knock-offs, and no company will support someone else's "standard".

    Want your windows to shut, your doors to close and lock, and your lights to turn off when you leave? Better start designing the control system and building it in *before* you even start laying foundations!

    --
    "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:02AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:02AM (#276970)

    unless you like paying the danegeld...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:06AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:06AM (#277001)

      danegeld? Is that a new daemon I hadn't heard about yet?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:49PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:49PM (#277073)

        No, it is more about how paying bullies to go away [wikipedia.org] does not really work (long-term anyway).

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by jasassin on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:35AM

    by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Wednesday December 16 2015, @05:35AM (#276982) Homepage Journal

    This is why I like this site. I'll never buy any Philips products.

    --
    jasassin@gmail.com GPG Key ID: 0xE6462C68A9A3DB5A
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Rivenaleem on Wednesday December 16 2015, @09:39AM

      by Rivenaleem (3400) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @09:39AM (#277023)

      Yeah, I'm doing a lot of house renovations and wanted to kit out my 'office' *cough* gaming room *cough* with LED strips. I was looking at Philips, but now will think again.

      • (Score: 3, Funny) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday December 16 2015, @11:16PM

        by Hyperturtle (2824) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @11:16PM (#277376)

        You know, *my* gaming room doesn't have LED strips from Philips, but it does have a CD-I with "The Legend of Zelda: Wand of Gamelon", in its original store-bought package.

        It probably has brought more joy to my life than any DRM ever has, and the game is horrible! HORRIBLE

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Jaruzel on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:23AM

    by Jaruzel (812) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @07:23AM (#277008) Homepage Journal

    Whereas I love the concept of the HUE range, I hate the way a) Philips have tried to own the market, and b) the complete lack of open documentation, and c) the limited use cases for the actual bulbs.

    Taking point C, I want to use these bulbs in my outside lights. I have four carriage style lamps across the front of my house, and for various activities throughout the year I have to climb a ladder, and swap in/out coloured bulbs - for halloween this year they were all Green, right now, for Xmas, they are Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow. When nothing exciting is happening, they'd be White. I keep loads of spare coloured bulbs just so I can do this.

    Do the HUE work outside? No they do not. Granted I've not looked that hard for an alternate solution, but this is/was my main bugbear with HUE. Also... last time I looked at them, you have to reset them back to White before selecting another colour (I think the app does this automatically) - which makes effects like running lights or KITT style strobing, out of the question.

    HUE is already a niche product, by adding more DRM, they are going to become even more obscure.

    -Jar

    --
    This is my opinion, there are many others, but this one is mine.
  • (Score: 2) by bradley13 on Wednesday December 16 2015, @08:20AM

    by bradley13 (3053) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @08:20AM (#277017) Homepage Journal

    From my experience with Philips products, this is typical. They make good hardware, but they think they need to provide software to go with it. That's not their strength, their software is crappy, so why do they waste the time and effort?

    An example from a different area: I have external Philips speakers for my Smartphone. They come with an app, which I originally thought I had to use in order to use the speakers. The app was just a disaster, and every release made it worse. As it turned out (to cut a long story short), I eventually realized that the speakers could be used just fine without the app. They really are good by themselves. So why did Philips bother producing a crappy app that gave them nothing but bad publicity? I mean, it's just weird.

    --
    Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @11:28AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 16 2015, @11:28AM (#277034)

      I have a Philips TV (and my work place does also). Moving through the EPG requires 5-20 button pushes per row. Yeah, that's right PER ROW (aka channel).

      There's no way to remove channels from the EPG, even though the manual says there is (no, there is no option for it even though the manual says so).

      The youtube on that tv is seriously fucking slow alsoo, once it starts to load the content, after which fixing a typo or clearing the search bar is fucking sloooooooow. Yeah, it's 2 years old model now, there's not going to be one single update anymore.

      Fucking piece of shit. Will never buy Philips again. Once i get a new tv, i'll burn this one with hell fire.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by FakeBeldin on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:36PM

    by FakeBeldin (3360) on Wednesday December 16 2015, @01:36PM (#277071) Journal

    see here [meethue.com].
    They're working on rolling out an update to allow any bulb to work again (as before).

    This is due to the backlash - so apparently, they do notice that and even care. A bit.
    At least enough to claim so.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 17 2015, @06:13PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 17 2015, @06:13PM (#277798)

      They care ... about their profits.