from the stationary-targets-are-the-easiest dept.
Submitted via IRC for SirFinkus
Here is a curious story from NPR: http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/03/02/468875167/why-do-wild-chimpanzees-throw-stones-at-trees
Anthropologist Barbara J. King explores new research on wild apes who throw stones at trees and cache them to use again — a behavior not seen and documented before and that some say may be ritual.
On Monday, a team of 80 people led by Hjalmar S. Kuhl and Ammie K. Kalan published an open-access paper in Nature's "Scientific Reports" that describes never-before-seen stone-throwing behavior among wild chimpanzees in four West African populations.
The chimpanzees throw the stones at trees or right into tree cavities. Because the apes reuse the tree sites and the accumulated stones — and because their behavior is not related to foraging — the researchers raise the possibility that this behavior is bound up with a type of ritual never before documented in wild apes.
[...] Kuhl, Kalan and their co-authors offer two possibilities. Perhaps the behavior originated as a kind of super-sized, noisy male display and now sometimes occurs outside that context. Or, the chimpanzees could be participating in a symbolic ritual.
So, fellow Soylentils, why do you think the chimpanzees threw rocks at trees?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by mhajicek on Monday March 07 2016, @03:24PM
Humans so similar things. We project stones, darts, knives, axes, spears, arrows, and bullets at inanimate objects repeatedly, and amass projectiles for future use. We do it to practice for hunting and fighting. As they've stated the chimpanzees don't use stone throwing to get food, I wonder if they ever use it to fight.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2, Insightful) by mrgren on Monday March 07 2016, @03:53PM
I think that's more like "chimpanzees have not been observed using stone throwing to get food..."
How are you going to prove that negative assertion?
(Score: 2) by frojack on Monday March 07 2016, @09:12PM
If you look at the videos http://www.nature.com/articles/srep22219#s1 [nature.com]
you will see that they only throw stones at hollow trees, and then take off quickly. They appear to listen at the tree first, then whack it with a stone and take off running.
So it seems like learned behavior.
Trying to get the bees to leave the hive so they can go for the honey?
Maybe driving some other animal they imagine might be hiding food to leave?
Maybe trying to knock down fruit they imagine might be hanging in that tree?
Maybe they like the sound a rock makes when it hits a hollow tree?
Maybe a boundary marker test.
In each case, they take off like they expect some result that is best avoided, mad bees, falling
things, territorial response, etc.
But maybe just a case of Monkey See, Monkey Do:
Oh, look, stones by tree, lets make that noise again.
The stones tend to stack up in and around the hollow trees. Why? Because those are the only trees
that are fun to throw at, make a sound, hold bees, mark boundaries etc etc.
The anthropologists mistake this gathering of stones for caching. Anthropologists like to attribute anything they don't understand as a some sort of intentional behavior.
I remember an article musing about some future anthropologist writing about the symbolic "ritual of the ring toss", due to the widely dispersed beer can pop-tops laying around anywhere primitive humans gathered. Then the Pop Top disappeared. But there still exists a pop top strata, which will no doubt be as precise as radio carbon dating for future dig sites.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 08 2016, @03:11AM
It's as though anthropologists anthropomorphize.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:54PM
Perhaps more research could be done to see if the chimps use stones to hunt or defend themselves. Maybe this is for practice to improve their hunting abilities. Or maybe it's for chimps to defend themselves against other chimps, a type of 'war' and this is practice.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Monday March 07 2016, @04:09PM
Or maybe they're bored and like people, throw stuff to pass the time. It can be both an entertaining time waster and to hone skills.
How do you think sprts was invented? It was born of two dudes arguing who could throw a rock or spear at animals better. So they started target practicing and competing. Not saying the apes are that advanced. But the basics are there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @06:04PM
Agreed. This basketball at its basics. Or darts.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by krishnoid on Monday March 07 2016, @06:57PM
Good point, though -- are these boy chimpanzees or girl chimpanzees? Maybe the researchers need to provide gender data on the chimps demonstrating this behavior, possibly under the terms of Title IX.
(Score: 4, Informative) by frojack on Monday March 07 2016, @09:13PM
In at movies both were shown, including a mother with a baby on her back.
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep22219#s1 [nature.com]
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @11:49PM
How do you think sprts was invented?
Spurts were invented when mother nature decided to bake silliness into male reproductive functionality.
Unless you're talking about the once petitioned Olympic Sport: Masturbation for Distance... A Houstonian radio DJ once trolled Olympic fans with a petition to accept this as a new sport. IIRC it was invented in the 90's.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday March 07 2016, @05:01PM
As they've stated the chimpanzees don't use stone throwing to get food
Could be like human fishing. Not fishing for humans but when humans decide to fish rather than do real work. Sure in theory you could catch dinner, but you're more likely to drink beer and catch a hangover and sunburn.
"ugh ugh get over here and help us harvest wild berries ugh ugh"
"ugh ugh no way its the weekend and I have a six pack of fermented mangos and I'm gonna knock apples out of this tree with my pet rocks ugh ugh"
"ugh ugh you dumbass this isn't minecraft you can't get apples from an oak tree ugh ugh"
"ugh ugh STFU and go pick your berries, say whatever you want, but I'm taking a day off ugh ugh"
Maybe its some kind of insane primate dominance ritual, you lowly SOBs have to pick berries or stand guard or WTF while I very obviously thru rocks at tree. I guess if you're tired of eating and mating you need something to pass the time.
I wonder what the wilderness value is of scaring away birds. I suppose if you're trying to sneak up on lunch, and there's no birds to caw caw at you and ruin a good sneak... Then embrace and extend that to a kind of voting, well, sure, you want to pick berries, but I say F that we're going hunting, and I'm throwing rocks to scare the birds and you're free to pick berries if you're not scared of getting hit in the head with rocks, so uh, yeah we're going hunting you meant to say. Or embrace and extent to mean you're free to quit work for the day and chill under this tree till sundown, if you're cool with getting hit by rocks...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 07 2016, @05:29PM
i.e. target practice.
🌻🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by jcross on Monday March 07 2016, @09:57PM
Except if you watch the videos it looks a lot more like the chimps are hammering the tree with a stone once and dropping it. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call this "throwing", but if we must, it's throwing at point-blank range and hardly useful as target practice. Now to me what it looks like is practice for braining another chimp with a rock. All of the chimps in the videos start with some hooting that gets gradually louder, bash the tree at around head height, drop the rock, and run off.
(Score: 4, Funny) by tangomargarine on Monday March 07 2016, @03:25PM
So, fellow Soylentils, why do you think the chimpanzees threw rocks at trees?
[insert tortured joke about systemd here]
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:53PM
You know, I saw Lennart Poettering in a grocery store in Hamburg yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn't want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, "Oh, you living in the now?" in German even though I appraoched him speaking English.
I was taken aback, and all I could say was "huh?" but he kept cutting me off and going "huh? huh? huh?" and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw the God of systemd trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen packs of tofu in his hands without paying.
The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like "Sir, you need to pay for those first." At first he kept pretending to be busy and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.
When she took one of the packs and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually "to prevent any electrical infetterence", and then turned around and winked at me. I don't even think that's a word. After she scanned each box and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
No wonder Linus hates him.
(Score: 2) by sudo rm -rf on Monday March 07 2016, @04:18PM
In germany, the people at the counter do not put your goods in the bag. That's up to you, and do so quickly, because the stuff from the guy behind you is starting to pile up already...
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Monday March 07 2016, @04:33PM
Then you're doing it wrong. First, you normally put your stuff back into the shopping cart. And you do so for each item as soon as the cashier has scanned it. So when it comes for you to pay, all things are already back in the cart. And the next customer's stuff will certainly not pile up until after you paid yours.
Afterwards you've got more than enough time to put the things into bags.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by captain normal on Monday March 07 2016, @04:45PM
And the chimpanzees observing this type of behavior scratch their heads and think what a strange ritual.
As to the question of why the chimps are tossing stones at trees, maybe they are just making sure there are no snakes hiding at the base of the trees they sleep in.
The Musk/Trump interview appears to have been hacked, but not a DDOS hack...more like A Distributed Denial of Reality.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday March 07 2016, @05:24PM
At Aldi here in the U.S. (a German-owned company) they just put all your stuff directly in a spare cart they keep next to the register after scanning it. Then you give them the cart you were using, take the one by the register a few feet away to the bagging area and bag all your stuff.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Monday March 07 2016, @05:37PM
Just curious: Which Aldi do you have in the US? The one with the blue sign, or the one with the red/yellow sign?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday March 07 2016, @06:06PM
Red and yellow. Looking at the map of what is considered "Aldi North" and "Aldi South" worldwide is pretty funny and arbitrary.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @08:10PM
Sounds like a job for one of them rapefugees ...
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday March 07 2016, @05:31PM
They throw stones at trees because they have time to spare, dammit.
In 2016, wild chimpanzees have a better quality life than you.
Why?
Because they have no systemd-infected boxen to admin.
PS. some argue that the correct plural is boxii.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 3, Funny) by digitalaudiorock on Monday March 07 2016, @05:36PM
And here I was already to insert a tortured Balmer joke by answering "Because they have no chairs".
(Score: 1) by bitstream on Monday March 07 2016, @03:25PM
It makes the researchers stay around. And where they are there's a opportunity for a treat? ;)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:26PM
Rituals? Do apes perform other "rituals" that aren't associated to other apes or animals?
Perhaps there is a smell or sound or something humans cannot directly observe that causes these apes to act this way?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:26PM
Seems like they are practicing for a Basketball tournament.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @06:39PM
James Naismith will be upset he loses credit for inventing basketball.
Seriously, though, I suspect the behavior is a combination of social bragging and aiming practice, and thus is indeed like a street "shoot-around" game. Kind of a primitive form of H.O.R.S.E.
(Score: 4, Funny) by JeanCroix on Monday March 07 2016, @09:36PM
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:26PM
the same reason human males do so much dumb stuff.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 07 2016, @03:59PM
I resemble that remark.
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by Hawkwind on Monday March 07 2016, @04:55PM
This is one of the theories, and strikes me as the most likely. At least more likely than ritualized behavior.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:28PM
This clearly demonstrates that man evolved from apes. We've finally documented those without sin casting stones.
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:29PM
> So, fellow Soylentils, why do you think the chimpanzees threw rocks at trees?
They don't have any politicians?
(Score: 3, Touché) by Thexalon on Monday March 07 2016, @03:40PM
Yes they do: Just like our politicians, chimpanzee politicians spend most of their time hurling feces at each other.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @04:13PM
Their politicians don't have any fans.
(Score: 2) by bart9h on Monday March 07 2016, @05:47PM
Right, cause if they had, they would be throwing politicians at trees.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:47PM
The real question is: why aren't we throwing stones at trees? Trees are fucking assholes, man. Fuck 'em.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @03:56PM
Erm, youtube.com/watch?v=PR37Z5DzsTg ?
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday March 07 2016, @06:48PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0150.html [giantitp.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @07:52PM
How the hell is that comic still going? I blame the trees.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @04:00PM
Throwing stones at stuff and actually hitting it is a useful skill. 10 apes picking up and throwing stones with accuracy and force may deter many predators or bring down prey.
That said chimps probably can't throw as well as humans on average: http://phys.org/news/2013-06-chimps-humans-baseball-pitcher.html [phys.org]
e.g. humans are probably more effective at stoning stuff to death than chimps are. While chimps are probably better at ripping stuff apart.
But the ancestors of humans had to start somewhere... So maybe give these chimps enough time and future generations might be better at throwing too.
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday March 07 2016, @11:25PM
Didn't watch the video(s) or really read anything, but this was my thought. Practice in case they are attacked or need to attack.
Or you know... fawn over large black obelisks... (did that sound gay to you?)(man, there was an old tv show or movie or something where one of the characters used to say that, but i can't find it with google) :(
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. I have always been here. ---Gaaark 2.0 --
(Score: 3, Touché) by maxwell demon on Monday March 07 2016, @04:15PM
Because I've read it in the summary and have no reason to assume it's a lie.
SCNR
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by Rich on Monday March 07 2016, @04:17PM
Did the chimps keep a scoreboard during their activity? Or, joking aside, could any other observation be made that they maybe compete for throwing skills?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 07 2016, @04:25PM
Could be a single player game. You know, like humans play trashcan basketball when there's absolutely no reward for scoring aside from not having to bend down and pick the trash back up.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by dltaylor on Monday March 07 2016, @04:21PM
Put 5 chimps in a room with a ladder and a bunch of bananas suspended above it. Whenever any chimp tries to climb the ladder hose all of them down, until the chimps themselves stop any climber. One by one, replace the original chimps as the replacements learn the behavior. After all have been replaced, they will continue to block attempts to climb the ladder. Why? Because we've always done it that way.
(Score: 2) by stderr on Monday March 07 2016, @04:32PM
According to Betteridge's law of headlines:
NO!
alias sudo="echo make it yourself #" #
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Monday March 07 2016, @04:42PM
Except that "no" is not a valid answer to "why".
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by stderr on Monday March 07 2016, @05:00PM
I hereby propose an amendment to Betteridge's law of headlines [wikipedia.org]:
Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no except when the question begins with "wh..."
alias sudo="echo make it yourself #" #
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Monday March 07 2016, @05:40PM
When a question begins with "wh", does that always imply that it cannot be answered with "yes" or "no"?
(Hint: Assume it's a headline)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by stderr on Monday March 07 2016, @05:59PM
Nah...
In those cases, the law is "some headlines...".
alias sudo="echo make it yourself #" #
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 07 2016, @06:45PM
She says, "Do you want ice cream, or cake?" The proper answer is "Yes."
Or, she says, "Do you want to have sex, or go to sleep?" Again, the proper answer is "Yes."
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Monday March 07 2016, @04:41PM
...should live in tree houses?
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @04:41PM
They practice with readily available rocks, so they can reliably hit their targets with their limited supplies of poo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 08 2016, @02:31AM
Why do scientists study why chimpanzees throw stones at trees, rather than studying why chimpanzees throw poop at scientists?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @04:49PM
They throw rocks because they don't have lasers yet!
sorry ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @05:03PM
I'm just saying....
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by jimbrooking on Monday March 07 2016, @05:16PM
Do they look like Donald Trump?
(Score: 2) by seeprime on Monday March 07 2016, @05:24PM
Trees make a nice sound when pelted with rocks. They're also pretty passive and take all you can throw at them.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 07 2016, @06:48PM
You may be on to something there. It appears that some specific trees are targets of rock throwing. Not all trees make the same sounds when hit with a rock. Maybe these trees seem "musical" or maybe magical to the guys who are throwing rocks. They're not going to waste any effort on some thin sapling that just says "thunk".
“I have become friends with many school shooters” - Tampon Tim Walz
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Monday March 07 2016, @05:38PM
If a wild chimpanzee throws stones at a tree when no-one else is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Welcome to Edgeways. Words should apply in advance as spaces are highly limite—
(Score: 2) by archfeld on Monday March 07 2016, @05:58PM
Because there aren't any glass houses in the jungle...sorry
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 07 2016, @06:21PM
They're keeping the researchers focused on the tree and not on the other chimps building a space shuttle a few meters away. You can see it if you pan right a little bit on Google Maps from the location in the article.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by krishnoid on Monday March 07 2016, @07:00PM
I guess we really could set up more jungle gyms [sciencenews.org].
(Score: 2, Insightful) by donkeyhotay on Monday March 07 2016, @07:39PM
They throw the rocks at the trees because they are bored and throwing rocks at trees is fun. It's the same reason that many hairless apes (known as humans) throw balls into baskets. Except in the case of the humans, if they are particularly good at this activity, other humans will pay money to watch them do it.
(Score: 2) by srobert on Monday March 07 2016, @09:13PM
Where's that number for the scout for Cubs?
(Score: 3, Funny) by MostCynical on Monday March 07 2016, @10:18PM
big gorilla hit tree with rock.
Snake came out.
Gorillas ran away.
It was a thrill.
Now
Hit it
No snake, but lots of anticipation.
Fun!
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Tuesday March 08 2016, @04:30AM
So vague - I mean they look very good , but consider the following. What if the tree smelt really strongly of something that can be sensed by the chimps but no the humans?
Of course we could test this, by give the tree a good wash, and seeing if they persist...
Did anyone else think of this?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday March 08 2016, @12:12PM
Duh, trees suck.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 08 2016, @10:32PM
Ah great idea, lets ask a bunch of borderline aspie types on Soylent to interpret body language and behaviour....
OK here goes. It looks like the monkeys are aware of the "camera traps". I am guessing they are unsure about it and are acting out a sort of indirect threating behaviour. Reminds me a bit like how my dog used to bark at anything-except-me when she wanted something (food, attention) from me. She wouldn't bark directly at me, it was always through a conduit.
There you go.