About two years ago Google's Nest subsidiary acquired Revolv. It was an acqui-hire - they did not want the customers or the products, they wanted the engineers. Revolv's main product was a $300 home automation hub that relied on cloud hosted servers for all its functionality.
Today, Nest announced that they would be turning off those servers, leaving revolv customers with a $300 brick. To make things worse, Revolv had promised their customers lifetime service. Revolv is still alive and well, it's just changed its name to Nest. So whose lifetime were they talking about?
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An article at The Electronic Frontier Foundation goes over a recent decision by the home automation company Nest to disable some of its customers' devices in May:
The Hub debuted in 2013 and was discontinued after Nest acquired Revolv in late 2014. One selling point was that the one-time payment of $300 included a "Lifetime Subscription," including updates. In fact, the device shipped without all of its antennas being functional yet. Customers expected that the antennas would be enabled via updates.
Customers likely didn't expect that, 18 months after the last Revolv Hubs were sold, instead of getting more upgrades, the device would be intentionally, permanently, and completely disabled.
The article also highlights the legal grey area for customers who attempt to keep their own hardware functional, due to "conflicting court decisions about the scope of Section 1201" (of the DMCA).
The EFF article links to a medium.com posting which goes over the experience of a user of the hardware in question:
On May 15th, my house will stop working. My landscape lighting will stop turning on and off, my security lights will stop reacting to motion, and my home made vacation burglar deterrent will stop working. This is a conscious intentional decision by Google/Nest. [...] Google is intentionally bricking hardware that I own.
Originally spotted at Hacker News.
Previously: Google Shows us the Future of Cloud-Dependent Home Automation
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:03AM
Seems like an open and shut case of deceptive advertising and failed promises. Provided one can show that Revolv made those promises, it's a pretty easy lawsuit to file and win. I don't see the story here.
(Score: 2) by jimshatt on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:07AM
(Score: 1) by tftp on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:25AM
I'm sure these lawyers had already read all the promises that Revolv made and then concluded that those promises carry no legal responsibility. For example, if it was just a vague text on the website at that time... I am sure that no customer of Revolv was signing a contract when they were buying the hub. They just read the website, paid online, and received the product. Have you read all the fine print /after/ you purchased that vacuum cleaner? Perhaps you had a limited time to return it if you did not like the papers that came with it. But rarely people read those, as it is pointless. They are all the same, and they are all written by the manufacturer. The customer has only one right - to pay money for the product.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:42AM
🙈🙉🙊
I 💟 GOOGLE
∈)☼(∋
(Score: 3, Informative) by TheRaven on Tuesday April 05 2016, @10:20AM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Tuesday April 05 2016, @03:52PM
in the US, during the last 20 or so years, the lawmakers have given up trying to support and defend regular ordinary people. there's no money in that! all the money is in brib^Hcorporate election funds.
and so, the lawmakers have fully declared war on the american consumer (and american worker) and have decided to 'team up' with only big corps and big funders.
we are no longer a first-world country, at this point. we spend more than we take in (so to speak) and our days are numbered. might take a long time to crash, but we are certainly on a crash course, no doubt about that.
sad what happens to great countries. I wonder if its fixable in my lifetime?
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @09:34PM
(Score: 4, Insightful) by mth on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:26AM
It shouldn't require a lawsuit for customers to be treated fairly.
Also it's a useful reminder that a device that depends on cloud services is very fragile; maybe redundant for Soylentils but not for the general public.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday April 05 2016, @11:58AM
Also it's a useful reminder that a device that depends on cloud services is very fragile;
Yup, something that has been shown over and over again. I've been looking at an in-house air quality monitor and finally settled on the BlueAir, the first thing I did before buying was email their support and ask whether it relied on a cloud service. They claim it doesn't, which for me is the difference between "sale" and "no sale". For IoT stuff, "cloud service" just means "external kill switch".
(Score: 3, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday April 05 2016, @05:22PM
It shouldn't require a lawsuit for customers to be treated fairly.
AT&T agrees. [consumerist.com]
(Score: 2) by davester666 on Tuesday April 05 2016, @07:32PM
Yes, but if it were at all possible for corporations or even individuals to do this, we wouldn't need the bazillion laws and regulations in every industry to try to require it.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:38AM
What percentage from Google's profit do you think it will be needed to compensate both the purchasers of the Revolv hub?
Even TFA says it:
Trie, TFA adds
But... what Nest would have is probably the IP address of the active users, it is unlikely they'll have the users' contact details as well.
It is not impossible that Nest will actually provide some form of compensation if the owners contact them, TFA doesn't show any indication of the contrary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Tuesday April 05 2016, @09:03AM
I'm pretty sure they needed some sort of account on the server. And I strongly doubt Revolv did give you one without proper registration.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Tuesday April 05 2016, @11:13AM
Would have been a clever move than to announce that right from the start, me thinks. Maybe not even a refund, but instead a new, 'better' NEST device, thus automatically acquiring some (apparently only few) new, happy long-term customers which will probably buy new NEST products in the future, and getting a good press.
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:12AM
Can I throw an expense brick in my glass house?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by pTamok on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:18AM
This is just a domestic example of what happens to businesses who outsource their IT: whether simply by buying hosting space or going the whole hog and buying IT services from a service provider. You lose control, and business being business, you cannot guarantee continuous service - providers go bankrupt, get bought, or decide to exit lines of business. Trusting in 'the cloud' means you are beholden to somebody-else's whims.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by mth on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:32AM
It's even worse than that. In the case of IT outsourcing, if one provider stops you can switch to a different one. But with a device like this, there is no way to configure it to connect to a different service provider nor is there any alternative provider with compatible back-end software.
(Score: 4, Funny) by turgid on Tuesday April 05 2016, @09:59AM
"But SLA!!!!!" -- PHB.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 3, Interesting) by anubi on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:23AM
I was just in Home Depot earlier today, looking at those NEST thermostats. They sure look cool.
After reading what I just read, though, I know I am on the right track having Arduinos running everything.
I simply do not consider the NEST system all that reliable. The hardware looks good, but I would be hard pressed to trust the company.
I already have way too many bricks.
If they want to sell me one, I need it to be open sourced so I can repurpose it should NEST make another "business decision" to turn off required servers. And given their "credit history", I will also need them to maintain an escrow account for me so they can refund my money should they decide to fail to support their product in the future.
( I am trying to learn how to do business the way a business does business! )
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:44AM
I need it to be open sourced
I wanted to become public domain, following the motto 'sharing is caring'. My wife didn't agree :-(
More serious: I'm looking into the ESP8266. It's a nice inexpensive toy. Unfortunately I heard it is a bit unreliable, so you need some safety-fallback if you intend to use it for something critical (I want to use it to make my oven-timer wifi controlled, but was advised there is a risk of burning my home down in case the device crashes and doesn't switch off the oven anymore).
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Absolutely.Geek on Tuesday April 05 2016, @08:58AM
I work with control systems and also safety control systems.
To make this safe you just need to think a little differently; have the device control the enable signal, should the device crash the enable signal goes away and the oven turns off.
For a full safety system, obviously there needs to be a heartbeat within the signal that is monitored by a safety relay, but that is going overboard for this application.
Also your oven should be able to be left on for days without too much trouble. Sometimes when cooking a stew I will have the oven on for 6 - 8 hrs with no issues.
Don't trust the police or the government - Shihad: My mind's sedate.
(Score: 2) by Geezer on Tuesday April 05 2016, @10:01AM
Home automation, once the government safety boffins get around to looking at it, has every chance of becoming prohibitively expensive. (2006/42/EC)-compliant toasters in every home, with SIL-3 interlocks for good measure, they'll say. The era of the $1000 toaster may be upon us.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @05:36PM
The ability to put bread in the toaster in the morning, and have it toasted any time I choose during the day, as light or dark as I please, without having to decide before I leave the house, is crucial.
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Tuesday April 05 2016, @10:56AM
Allegedly, the esp8622 IP stack sometimes crashes; therefore I'm not certain it would crash in a way to change the value of the relevant IO pin. It might just not toggle back to "off" (no matter if off is HI or LOW). The recommendation I got is to use a small atmel (cost: 1€) to check and disable the oven when it was running for a predefined maximum period without interruption. Sounds reasonable to me...
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday April 05 2016, @12:35PM
Wait, you're planning on replacing the thermostat, like "toaster oven SMD reflow style" ? Whoa. That's some scary stuff. Even in self clean mode my kitchen oven doesn't have a 100% duty cycle. So... yeah, be careful.
One thing to think about is computers are really freaking fast and some physical processes (like ovens) are really slow. Just because a MS windows computer takes 5 minutes to reboot with occasional manual intervention doesn't mean all computers take 5 minutes to reboot.
So ... say your MC can go from power up to actively controlling the heating element in 1/2 second (maybe more with bootloader, I donno). The trick is to reset the thing every 60 seconds or so. for 1/120th the time its off, which means you can only maintain a 119/120ths duty cycle, which is probably still enough to burn down a house, but assuming you've verified the software won't memory leak in a couple hours, the odds of there being a problem with something reset every minute are pretty low. Put all your "every minute" safety code first before any event loops kick off, maybe even before you enable interrupt processing.
You could install a second thermostat in the oven. I mean, it can't be that hard, can it? Then set the second thermostat to 450F or so and put it in series with the fancy thermostat. That way, assuming the second thermostat actually works, you'll never heat the oven above 450F, which should be perfectly safe.
You might be surprised what a real RTOS can do in terms of safety monitoring.
One of the funnest parts about embedded is finding obscure failure modes and designing them out. Making a thermostat is pretty easy. Making one that also protects against 100 failure modes is actually kinda hard. That's where all the money in embedded development goes.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by q.kontinuum on Tuesday April 05 2016, @01:34PM
No, that's not what I was planning. Actually, my use-case is relatively simple: Our oven did have a timer module, but it stopped working. The module only allows to set start- and end-time to switch the oven on and off. All other settings have to be set in forehand. The module toggles a relay which switches the rest of the oven on or off.
Beyond that, all the normal settings (barbecue, recirculating air, top heat, bottom heat, but also the desired temperature) has to be pre-set.
Problem was, the timer is destroyed, and a new module was a) unobtainable and b) last listed price was 120€. For a digital clock. 120€! First thing was to short-circuit the relay to get the oven back into a working state. But to be honest, even though I have all the parts, I still lack the time to work on programming the module. I had some first hello-world flashed to the device to see it connect to my wifi router, but then noticed the IO-port was configured for serial debug-output, so I couldn't use it out of the box for my purposes (need to disable debug output on that pin first). Somehow I had to interrupt for a couple of weeks, and later felt like starting from scratch. Nice idea I thought, but just too busy with too many other things. Nevertheless, a nice small module and given enough time has probably a high potential for small home projects...
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday April 06 2016, @04:01AM
Arduinos... plus a CD4060 free-running counter/oscillator chip.
Capacitively couple the CD4060's reset line to an I/O port on the Arduino. ( Even better if you use a pin on an 8574 I2C chip ). Toggle the I/O line as long as the processor is running the appropriate routine. If something hangs it up, code so it will forget to toggle the I/O line.
Now, the CD4060 is counting all on its own, completely independent of the Arduino.
In normal operation, the CD4060 will never count high enough to do anything before being reset ( that is the reason behind the capacitive coupling... so getting hung at a level can't hang the CD4060... the I/O pin HAS to keep toggling to charge and discharge the capacitor ).
In the event the Arduino hangs, the CD4060 keeps on counting until a high order bit begins toggling. This is capacitively coupled to the Arduino's main RESET line, in the same manner the DTR line resets the Arduino during program load. The CD4060 will relentlessly try to restart the Arduino until the Arduino catches on and again toggles the CD4060's reset line.
Also rig it so that the CD4060 also shuts down all interfaces. If the Arduino does wake up, it can turn them back on. If the Arduino has indeed gone Kaput, all interfaces are left in the shutdown state, while the much simpler CD4060 circuit spends its days trying to wake the Arduino. You might even use higher order bits of the counter string to trip off a master system shutdown and give up if - say - there were four consecutive attempts to restart the Arduino and all four were unsuccessful. At that point, a power switch drops out and the entire system - CD4060 and all - powers down awaiting human intervention.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @01:02PM
> have the device control the enable signal, should the device crash the enable signal goes away and the oven turns off.
What's to stop the device from crashing with the enable signal pinned up?
Ever have a buggy audio driver crash your PC and leave the sound card blaring out static until you do a manual power cycle?
I can see your approach working if crashing only meant losing power, but if it is a software crash then all bets are off.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:41PM
Watchdog timers are your friend.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday April 05 2016, @02:01PM
The main idea is you should always have a parallel, "out of band" safety circuit which needs manual intervention to reset. The best practice is to wire those limits to a latching safety circuit which holds itself closed and needs to be manually reset. It should also be a more mechanical system using relays, mechanical limit switches, thermal cut outs, fuses, etc. instead of electronics as they do exactly what you ask of them.
You set your safety circuit to the absolute maximum safe values and your computer works within those limits. If anything goes wrong with the computer, hardware or software wise, your secondary safety circuit trips killing the whole lot. Someone then needs to physically reset the system to enable operation.
And one last thing: NEVER use a normally open circuit in any safety circuit. Your safety switches should always be normally closed when in a safe condition and wired in series. This means a fault, be it process or even wiring, will always open the circuit stopping current flow.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday April 05 2016, @09:05AM
You are aware that "public domain" means "do with it what you want"? I'm sure you still would want to reserve some rights on yourself. :-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Tuesday April 05 2016, @10:59AM
I couldn't let the chance for a bad joke go just because of some pesky details ;-) What would you have suggested? Is there a fitting license? Maybe a customized BSD (where BSD stands for Beautiful Sex Dolls or something)?
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday April 05 2016, @12:18PM
The General Pubic License, of course. :-)
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday April 06 2016, @03:36AM
Are you:
1. Claiming to be beautiful?
Or
2. Suggesting that any sex doll gets a say in how it(he/she?) is *used*?
Scary link concept: IoT sex doll.
Like knowing your full browser history, only with the web cam pictures taken at the time you were browsing..
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Wednesday April 06 2016, @06:05AM
Thinking about it, probably it was a bad joke about adapting a software license for completely other purposes. That's obviously ill-advised. Obviously I'd need to think about hardware-licensing anyway.
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 2, Informative) by anubi on Tuesday April 05 2016, @09:31AM
I have been playing around a lot with Arduinos, along with RS485 interfaces for those nifty little "pushbutton replacer" touchscreen HMI tablets ( Delta ) [youtube.com] which allow me to have Arduino GUI.
The Delta HMI will work as a ModBus "slave", so I can draw all sorts of meters, switches, whatever, and command it from Arduino.
I also have LanTronix "XPort" [google.com] interfaces which allow me to telnet into the Arduino. Or it will send me emails upon command from the Arduino.
And I also have a little watchdog interface ( actually, just a little self-running CD4060 ( datasheet ) [fairchildsemi.com] counter chip which I keep having to pulse the reset line to or it will count up high enough to start tripping the reset line to the Arduino, as well as shut down all interfaces. )
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Geezer on Tuesday April 05 2016, @10:34AM
Sounds pretty cool. Back in 2004, in the course of a home remodeling, I set up a bunch of leftover Siemens industrial junk, with TP177 HMI's, to run the outdoor lighting, garden sprinklers, security system, HVAC, and stuff. That, with CAT5 wall jacks in every room and a permanent cable/DSL router built in to the utility closet, made the place an easy sell years later. Of course, you needed to be a Step 7 programmer to change anything beyond the user-level settings on the HMI's. I wonder how the new owners got on with it.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday April 05 2016, @12:32PM
Interesting setup. The usual Modbus HMI setup is the HMI is the master and the PLC a slave. This frees the PLC from having to send a specific set of data to the HMI and instead lets the HMI poll the PLC for the data it wants. Makes programming easier as the HMI can easily be updated without needing to change the PLC program. The PLC just worries about its control loop and the HMI polls it for the data it wants.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @01:31PM
> oven-timer wifi controlled, but was advised there is a risk of burning my home down
I'll raise you: having a sauna timer SMS controlled (as I want to be able to start it just after I've got on the ferry home. Even internet controlled would work as long as there were multiple layers of security). Your puny oven's probably one phase, a few kW - my sauna stove's 3-phase, 10 kW. From what I can see, there aren't even commercially available versions of what I want. I suspect I'd not get permission from the local council to install such a thing in a building like this.
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Tuesday April 05 2016, @01:50PM
"More power!" :-) Sounds like you are more of an electrician than an electronic technician or programmer, when the size of the switch is your main concern?
Sorry, with such a cue, I can't resist. Sounds from a technical perspective like basically similar to what I was planning. I wasn't actually planning to expose the switch via Internet, but did think about it a bit. I would prefer that compared to SMS, since SMS requires a mobile phone while internet works on many different devices.
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 06 2016, @02:47AM
I'm getting an image of the pilot of "Home Improvement" [blogspot.com] where Tim "The Toolman" Taylor wants the dishwasher to do a better job.
The dishwasher is in an island, so the camera can be positioned to see the side which the back of the unit faces.
In classical Home Improvement fashion, things go unexpectedly AWRY! [blogspot.com]
Video would be a nice addition but Disney is a bunch of last-century dicks. [archive.is]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:48PM
I'll be really impressed when you can do that with my dad's old oven.
It's the only electric oven I know of, which actually requires a match to start (you have to heat the temp sensor or it won't start heating).
(Score: 2) by TheGratefulNet on Tuesday April 05 2016, @03:42PM
lots of radio links. esp is not the only (or best) one.
look into xbee modules, for one. they can be paired and encrypted. they can also run poor man's multicast (set them all to the same PAN-ID and any time any one talks, they all receive, so its a party line effect, which can be useful).
lately, I've been playing with bluetooth hc05 radio modules, that give serial-in and serial-out transparently. good range, easy pairing and its just streams of bytes (ascii if you send to blue-term on your phone, etc).
there is nRF24l01 which has good range when you buy quadcopter style radios (search for LNA+PA on nrf24l01).
many many choices. wifi is the least secure since its the most hacked target and there is no ssl on the esp module at all. the others can have some encryption, at at least at some level.
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:32PM
I know my oven will only run for a set number of hours before it automatically shuts off unless you go through a game code like process to put it in "Sabbath mode". As long as the remote on such an oven only simulates button presses, the existing safety mechanism will still function.
You could also add a watchdog timer to the device. If the esp doesn't reset the watchdog periodically, it strobes the device reset line.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @11:56AM
I have a couple of similar devices from Seagate. Absolutely pieces of shit. Linux OS. A hard drive wrapped in such a way you can't connect to it without busting the whole thing. The drive is partitioned as NTFS. It is so absolutely slow as to make it useless. You have to login initially using the Seagate internet site which then connects back into the device (wtf, seriously). The username and password for your device is stored on the Seagate servers. The data in some cases is passed through Seagate servers. The brand name is 'GoFlex' but this applies to other Seagate devices as well. Somehow it passes reviews with flying colours yet it is absolutely crap. Did they try to copy a 500MB file onto the device? Did they use it at all? So absolute crap that it is literally a brick when you get it: unusable until you 'register' it with Seagate. And if Seagate turns off the servers? You may be SOL. Best firewall the damn thing from the Internet to stop other people pawing through your files.
(Score: 2) by bitstream on Tuesday April 05 2016, @12:36PM
The reviews were bought?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @12:50PM
It's my own fault for buying this crap in the vain hope that this one time I wouldn't have to built it and maintain it myself only to find out that I really just should have done it all myself?
Yeah. I'd back that call. The GoFlex device range is so bad you can't claim that they actually work.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @07:03PM
I have this seagate:
http://www.seagate.com/as/en/external-hard-drives/portable-hard-drives/wireless/wireless-plus/ [seagate.com]
It's 2TB, usb3 and wifi-n (and battery).
they "recommend" i install APP to use it, but it works "fine" if you connect to the HDD via its Access Point mode (default SSID: Seagate_wifi?).
The default IP is 172.25.0.1 (so you have to be on that network too, so set static ip on your device).
Once you're in (via firefox:http://172.25.0.1) you can configure it. It has samba, so you can access it from android device with wifi with a program like "ES file explorer", which has a samba-client built-in.
It is dog slow over wifi (~3MB/sec) but my android has no ethernet or usb3-port and doesn't allow to store to add-on SD card so it's okay.
However connecting it via usb3 it's usb3-speed-fast.
I have never installed a APP to use it and i think the HDD has never ever seen the seagate website or the internet in general (firewalled IP).
(Score: 2) by Capt. Obvious on Tuesday April 05 2016, @02:03PM
My friend installed a NEST. Followed their instructions. It got bricked, because while they say there are multiple acceptable wiring configurations on the box, there are not.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:17PM
One problem I discovered when having work done on my furnace is that wiring is only color-coded by convention. However, because they are usually installed once and then left alone, it isn't uncommon for the wiring to not follow the normal convention. Therefore you always need to check the wiring manually or hope the previous thermostat has its wiring terminals labeled on the chassis. Oh and also, check the voltage because some older thermostats and ones designed for baseboard systems are at mains voltage.
(Score: 2) by Capt. Obvious on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:40PM
This was a literal number of wires. He had 5, NEST claimed 5 was okay, but did not work. I think it was a missing second common ground??
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @05:29PM
Get a Nest thermostat, gut it, and put an Arduino inside. Best of both worlds.
(Score: 2) by bitstream on Tuesday April 05 2016, @12:38PM
Only devices that can be flashed with open source firmware should be bought. Or perhaps the odd hardware that just works and doesn't depend on phone-home or "upgrades".
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Tork on Tuesday April 05 2016, @03:16PM
Google of all companies should not have been the one to teach me the harsh reality of web-based services.
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Tuesday April 05 2016, @03:34PM
What company should be the one to have done this?
Google has left a trail of bodies in its wake, and has for years now. There are not many other companies in the position to disappoint people quite as much. Some already have done this and so people are assuming disappointments. There are not many left that can disappoint quite like how Google does due to their providing of services and yanking ones they no longer wish to offer.
Facebook only has a few physical products, the one that hasn't been cancelled so far is their social networking headset.
Microsoft is clearly not where you or others intend to get their free services from, even if MS intends to install a window to the world in every home. They upset people with Skype, and are now pushing it aggressively, but most people have moved on from the angst of when they bought it. (and the service itself hasn't been culled, even if it is little like what it was back then).
Apple doesnt have enough to bet the farm on them unless all you use is itunes services and email/texting...
In any event, It is always a good idea to assume that something that is great from a small firm WILL be purchased. Few turn into the next google, but many get absorbed by the current google/microsoft/even yahoo. A friend of mine had eliminated everything google that he'd used and then Google bought Waze and now had a copy of all of his driving habits. He was creeped about google now and somehow thought Waze was OK.
And no, I don't know who or what to trust. It's frustrating. For home automation stuff, though, X10 has been a mainstay for years and the older stuff doesnt require an internet or a cloud. Just wall wart acting as a "modem" and a PC (that you can turn into a server and connect to it however) to manage it. That's my recommendation for home automation stuff... internet goes down and you can still dial in! (Assuming you have a line to dial in to, many people moved that functionality to the internet as well...)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @03:57PM
Last I checked x10 was not fit for purpose because the comms are one way - you send commands to the x10 device but you don't get status back. That means you can't tell if the command was correctly received and acted on. The best you can do is send it multiple times and pray that at least one will get through. But that makes any sophisticated operations, like smoothing lighting transitions effectively impossible because of the inherent jitter.
(Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday April 06 2016, @08:25PM
This is true, at least with the hardware I have. When in doubt, send the command again. I generally had it set to ensure multiple transitions.
However, basic information can be gathered from the nodes on an X10 network, and they can be polled for on/off/in-between status (such as a dimmer switch).
The problem is dimmers work best as an analog representation, and X10 isn't really good at that sort of thing. It likes on or off, or steps in between.. not a fuzzy variable.
This problem limits its application in more than just as you've stated; I have some lights that turn on at dusk, give or take 5 minutes of variability each day, but always marching forth with the correct dusk time for my timezone. However, to be very granular about it, down to the minute per day, takes way more memory than the switches themselves have -- at least the ones I own. I imagine beefier models are available... but that limits the amount of functionality since I can't create a granular stepped approach to the dusk timing, and instead have to make due with a 5 minute variable updated for every 10 or fifteen minutes of dusk timing gradiation over the course of the year.
(small note: my original x10 install was not y2k complaint resulting in the unexpected deaths of numerous watered house plants that went without watering... Jan 1 2000 everything worked -- Jan 2 2000 everything no longer worked!)
(Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:47PM
I thought that was the whole startup business model. Slap together the next big idea(TM), build out just enough infrastructure to get it working, use VC capital to run it at a loss while you expand way beyond your ability to scale, then IPO or sell it before it all collapses inward on itself. Lather, rinse, repeat.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Tuesday April 05 2016, @10:43PM
Probably no company should have been involved at first.
The right way to go about solving this would be:
1. Somebody writes a non-April-Fools RFC to define a standard for home automation components independent of any particular implementation.
2. Some geeks who are enthusiastic about the possibilities create implementations of said RFC that do useful stuff (e.g. preheat the oven before you get home). This would likely involve several interesting hacks of both hardware and software.
3. Once the geeks have something useful, it's time to win over home appliance manufacturers with the following sales pitch: "We can provide you all the designs, all you need to do is put this kind of gadget into your machines, point people to this software, and you will be able to advertise your stuff as ready for home automation." Come up with a nice logo or something that they can slap on.
So basically, when it gets to the point of needing funding and corporate heft behind it, your source is Whirlpool or Maytag, not the software itself. The software is relatively trivial, the hardware is the difficult part.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:06PM
This is slightly related in that it does not bode well for all the rest of Nest's products.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nest/comments/4dbbgh/is_anyone_concerned_about_the_future_of_nest/d1pjcku [reddit.com]
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday April 05 2016, @04:18PM
- HEY Buy this! lifetime guarantee!
- OK Whatever
- I meant our company lifetime of course.
- YOU SONOFABITCH
Account abandoned.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by sjames on Tuesday April 05 2016, @05:18PM
It's almost as if Google is a covert ploy to convince people to ditch the cloud. This is hardly the first time google has chosen to pull the rug out from under a group of users on a whim, it's just the first (that I can think of) where they left a physical brick behind.
It's not like they're some tiny struggling operation that got in financial trouble and can't afford to honor their promise. And unlike some of the things they yanked, this one was never free.
So there you have it, unless it comes with a solid contract with a significant penalty clause, STAY AWAY from the cloud or at least make sure you have a viable way to bring it all back in-house (in this case, literally) before you start. Then be sure to ask yourself, what is MY benefit to having this in the cloud and how much is it costing me (including in security risk) since I could bring it all in-house anyway.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @06:37PM
If something is to blame is how the western economy works. Humankind created an ecosystem whose dominating
living beings (corporations) can screw any human moral law and get away with it. All corporations are deemed to
become evil one day because at one point they *need* to do that to keep growing further, and in a world where
investors have the last word on everything there is no such thing as "don't grow beyond that point".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @07:08PM
Why would you need to turn on the lights on a sunny day?
The light-switch lives in the cloud and there are no clouds on sunny days!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2016, @11:34PM
Get used to this i'm afraid..
I still remember getting burnt by this back about 15 years ago with a 'fitness tracker' The ONLY way you could get data out was being online with their servers. I said it was a bad idea, but had to buy it anyway ( those of you that are married understand.. ).
About a year later, they folded. While not borderline malicious like in this case, it still rendered the device 100% useless.
Moral is never ever buy a product that *relies* on the cloud to work at all. Sure, 'extra functionality' perhaps if you want to take the risk, but not for its base...