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posted by takyon on Saturday April 30 2016, @08:30PM   Printer-friendly
from the internet-of-nodes dept.

Meshnet networks, or meshnets, are a form of intranet that doesn't require a central router point. Instead of emitting from a single point, they're distributed across an entire system of nodes. Accessing one is free—and doesn't require the services of a telecom.

Lau had spent the previous summer chatting with other meshnet enthusiasts in Europe, trying to figure out the best way to set up routers across the city. He suggested it was time to give it a try in Toronto. What grew out of Lau and Iantorno's meeting, four months ago now, was a plan to build a meshnet in this city—one where users wouldn't need to worry about eavesdroppers, because it would be encrypted.

When it's finished, Toronto's first free-to-use meshnet should provide an accessible and secure internet community, maintained by locals keen on becoming digitally self-sufficient. Those early adopters could reshape our relationship to internet providers, and cut monthly rates out of the picture.


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  • (Score: 2) by gznork26 on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:04PM

    by gznork26 (1159) on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:04PM (#339585) Homepage Journal

    The first things that came to mind when I read this were the efforts of HAM radio operators to develop digital data transmission over their air with packet radio, and the network of dial-up servers that comprised FIDONET. Middle-of-the-night automated dial-up sessions among FIDONET nodes passed messages meant for other destinations until they were received -- it was what we had before the Internet was accessible by the public beyond university and government nodes. Who here were part of these things, and what stories do you have about them?

    • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Sunday May 01 2016, @01:01AM

      by Fnord666 (652) on Sunday May 01 2016, @01:01AM (#339635) Homepage
                          __
                         /  \
                        /|oo \
                       (_|  /_)
                        _`@/_ \    _
                       |     | \   \\
                       | (*) |  \   ))
          ______       |__U__| /  \//
         / FIDO \       _//|| _\   /
        (________)     (_/(_|(____/
      (c) John Madil
    • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Sunday May 01 2016, @01:13AM

      by Fnord666 (652) on Sunday May 01 2016, @01:13AM (#339638) Homepage

      The first things that came to mind when I read this were the efforts of HAM radio operators to develop digital data transmission over their air with packet radio, and the network of dial-up servers that comprised FIDONET. Middle-of-the-night automated dial-up sessions among FIDONET nodes passed messages meant for other destinations until they were received -- it was what we had before the Internet was accessible by the public beyond university and government nodes. Who here were part of these things, and what stories do you have about them?

      I never ran a Fido BBS but I spent a lot of time using them during the late 80s and early 90s. There were a wide variety of topics in the forums and if you wanted to do any sort of email, Fido was the way to go back then. I remember thinking that the store and forward of messages in the middle of the night for lower telecom rates and the organization around area codes to eliminate long distance charges was quite clever.

      Years later I was teaching a class at the local university and a student's name caught my eye. After a while I realized that he had been the Sysop for one of the Fido BBS I had belonged to those many years ago.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by jmorris on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:10PM

    by jmorris (4844) on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:10PM (#339587)

    Uh huh. Meshes and all that stuff has a place. But "Free Internet" ain't it. At some point it has to interconnect with the Internet, it costs real money to maintain the core Internet infrastructure and somebody is going to pay for that. So unless it is just another way to suckle the government teat there is going to be a price to pay if you want your traffic to exit the local mesh to the Internet. Especially if you want to watch Youtube and Netflix.

    But it would be nice to see some locality introduced back into the Internet picture. Right now it is common for traffic crossing the street to travel thousands of miles getting there. "Local" sites are hosted out in the Cloud where it isn't really even valid to even ask the question of where it actually is because it can shift any moment as the load balancers do their thing. So if some content is only available inside a local mesh network that would be kinda interesting. I'm old school and remember BBS systems, every town had a unique scene; a mesh would be a perfect place to explore that.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JNCF on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:17PM

      by JNCF (4317) on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:17PM (#339590) Journal

      You might like the OpenLibernet whitepaper (PDF). [openlibernet.org] It proposes that nodes be payed in cryptocurrency for routing traffic. I didn't like all of the details that are present, and last I checked the project seemed dead, but it's an interesting suggestion for a free market meshnet.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 02 2016, @02:35PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 02 2016, @02:35PM (#340255)

        That's cool and all but what can I do with those crypto-coins? At what point can I pay my meal with them? Cryptocurrencies are cool and all but until they get out of the niche, the aren't solving anything and amount to nothing more than " on the internet"-patent claims.

    • (Score: 2) by takyon on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:26PM

      by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Saturday April 30 2016, @09:26PM (#339591) Journal

      Especially if you want to watch Youtube and Netflix.

      A low bandwidth per user meshnet would allow users to access a lot of text content just fine, and maybe even the most basic of YouTube functionality (they have a 144p resolution option, and audio doesn't degrade too badly).

      Exits aren't too hard to find. Depending on the location, plenty of people have 100 Mbps or 1 Gbps connections to the Internet. If all the meshnet traffic is encrypted, the ISP can't do much about violating the TOS, unless they just decide to cut off the top few percent of heavy users. The real price of the meshnet is deploying and maintaining those nodes, such as the RasPi 2 ones they want to use. Depending on the range, putting fixed nodes in people's homes only isn't going to cut it. If a node gets broken or stolen, coverage is lost, and it needs some amount of electricity to operate.

      The local content you mention could operate like a smaller, localized version of Freenet.

      --
      [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
      • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Sunday May 01 2016, @12:47AM

        by Fnord666 (652) on Sunday May 01 2016, @12:47AM (#339634) Homepage

        Exits aren't too hard to find. Depending on the location, plenty of people have 100 Mbps or 1 Gbps connections to the Internet. If all the meshnet traffic is encrypted, the ISP can't do much about violating the TOS, unless they just decide to cut off the top few percent of heavy users.

        There's a reason TOR recommends not running an exit node from your residential line. The same thing would apply to an exit node for this local meshnet. The first time the local SWATstapo kicks down someone's door because some questionable traffic from the meshnet exited via their ISP connection, no one will want to be an exit node any more and you now have a local network with nothing on it.

        • (Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday May 01 2016, @01:07AM

          by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Sunday May 01 2016, @01:07AM (#339636) Journal

          This is an encrypted mesh network project. They will have some volunteers ready to face the heat.

          --
          [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 01 2016, @02:34AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 01 2016, @02:34AM (#339653)

            I'm sure some smartass will volunteer to host an exit node on a burner phone. But if Smarty McAss can get free data for free on a burner phone with no data plan, who needs a friggin mesh network? Why can't everyone who wants free data use their own freeriding burner phone?

          • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Sunday May 01 2016, @09:52PM

            by Fnord666 (652) on Sunday May 01 2016, @09:52PM (#339958) Homepage

            This is an encrypted mesh network project. They will have some volunteers ready to face the heat.

            I'm sure they will initially. The question is how many will they have after the first one gets hauled away in the middle of the night?

      • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Sunday May 01 2016, @07:50AM

        by Nuke (3162) on Sunday May 01 2016, @07:50AM (#339720)

        If all the meshnet traffic is encrypted, the ISP can't do much about violating the TOS, unless they just decide to cut off the top few percent of heavy users.

        The ISPs wouldn't give a shit whether it was encripted or not. They are interested in selling bandwidth. If the bandwidth became focussed on a few customers they would not cut them off as in the current business model (which is shaped around lots of separate users), because that way they would lose all their business. No, they would start charging users on a metered basis as I presume they charge big businesses now. The guys on the mesh who have the connections to the ISP would become retailers - unless they are prepared to pay their massive bills out of their own pockets.

        As TFA says, the mesh could reshape our relationship to internet providers. It would indeed, but not in the way that these mesh guys are dreaming of.

    • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Sunday May 01 2016, @03:15PM

      by Hyperturtle (2824) on Sunday May 01 2016, @03:15PM (#339838)

      I agree--what will happen is that someone will try to use this service for something it isn't, they'll loudly complain and this will be doomed.

      Or, turned into a proxy service for internet of things that rat us out. That slow internet connection someone pays for is all that is needed, along with the list of DHCP registartions with mac addresses and stuff.

  • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Saturday April 30 2016, @10:21PM

    by Nuke (3162) on Saturday April 30 2016, @10:21PM (#339608)

    FTFA :

    Those early adopters could reshape our relationship to internet providers, and cut monthly rates out of the picture.

    If it is accessing the Internet they will still be needing a connection(s) somewhere, so I don't see monthly rates being cut out of the picture. Not unless the ISP fails to notice that only one guy in Toronto has an account, and the traffic of 10 million users is going through his portal.

    While meshnets can't surf Netflix by themselves, they can tap into the internet proper by hooking up nodes to Wi-Fi routers.

    Well that solves the above problem doesn't it? Whatever TF it means.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Saturday April 30 2016, @10:37PM

    by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Saturday April 30 2016, @10:37PM (#339610) Journal

    I was under the impression that meshnets were a cool idea but unworkably slow once you get beyond a three or four hops. Is that no longer the case?

    • (Score: 1) by hopp on Monday May 02 2016, @04:04AM

      by hopp (2833) on Monday May 02 2016, @04:04AM (#340073)

      Nope, no change in physics or reality yet.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 14 2016, @08:13PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 14 2016, @08:13PM (#346152)

        I don't see why it isn't possible for it to be usable with a higher number of hops. If I do a traceroute to soylentnews.org, it is 14 hops until it reaches linode where soylentnews appears to be hosted. Soylentnew is usable, so why can't a mesh network theoretically be usable over a similar number of hops?

        I expect the answer in practice is likely because the hardware deployed on a mesh network like the one being proposed can't handle it when any significant amount of traffic is put on it, but that is just a technical problem.

  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 30 2016, @10:38PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 30 2016, @10:38PM (#339611)

    Will be as successful as openwireless.org. Zero deployment anywhere.

    Still searching for that openwireless.org SSID. Where is it? Where? Nowhere!

  • (Score: 2) by bitstream on Sunday May 01 2016, @09:41AM

    by bitstream (6144) on Sunday May 01 2016, @09:41AM (#339743) Journal

    The point with meshnets is that there ain't no traffic charges and there's no one to keep track of who's using it. Combined with storage located many hops away this would be a boon for no questions asked.

    Perhaps cubesats can link it from continent to continent?