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posted by martyb on Thursday May 12 2016, @09:23PM   Printer-friendly
from the move-adapt-or-die dept.

Scientists understand that stress in early childhood can create lifelong psychological troubles, but have only begun to explain how they emerge in the brain.

For example, they have observed that stress incurred early in life attenuates neural growth. Now a new study with male mice exposed to stress shows that the hippocampus reaches some developmental milestones early—essentially maturing faster in response to stress.

The findings, the first to track and report signs of stress-related early maturation in a brain region as mice develop, may lend some credence to the expression that children facing early adversity have to "grow up too fast."

Kevin Bath, assistant professor of cognitive, linguistic, and psychological sciences at Brown University, became curious about whether some brain regions were maturing faster when he observed that certain traits in humans and rodents—such as fear-driven learning and memory, sexual development, and neural connectivity among some brain regions—were accelerated, rather than stunted, after early life stress. Some of these qualities, particularly memory and emotion regulation, involve the hippocampus.

It makes sense as an evolutionary adaptation--mature faster, survive longer, reproduce earlier. But how much of our societal ills are secondary effects of that process?


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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 12 2016, @10:15PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 12 2016, @10:15PM (#345412)

    Does the string "stress" in this summary mean what it means in English, or in medical English?

    • (Score: 2) by bitstream on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:23PM

      by bitstream (6144) on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:23PM (#345426) Journal

      Regular childhood beatings?

      • (Score: 2) by opinionated_science on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:53PM

        by opinionated_science (4031) on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:53PM (#345436)

        a sort of pointless article. How about this "Stimulated brains respond by growing faster".

        A great deal of biology works because it is adapted on a very long time scale, but responsive on a (relatively) very short scale.

        Where I grew up we start school at 4. What difference does the 2 years that some countries have on the brain?

        But you are right - abused children, unfortunately, have a higher incidence of being abusing adults.

        A great deal of human behaviour can be shaped by experiences - choose yours wisely!!!

    • (Score: 2) by martyb on Friday May 13 2016, @12:45PM

      by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 13 2016, @12:45PM (#345614) Journal

      Does the string "stress" in this summary mean what it means in English, or in medical English?

      From the Futurity article:

      For the study, published in the journal Hormones and Behavior [doi.org], researchers exposed the mice to a period of fragmented maternal care—a condition comparable to one that might affect a child growing up in an economically challenged, single-parent household, for example.

      At four days of age, pups and their mothers were moved from standard cages to ones where the materials available to the mother for nest building were inadequate. Food and water remained plentiful, but the mother responded anxiously and would frequently depart to search for anything that might work as nesting material.

      Pups therefore received less consistent and attentive care from their harried and distracted mothers than experimental controls that were never moved from standard cages. After just a week of exposure to this manipulation (a significant span of time for mice who mature from birth to adulthood in just eight weeks), the mice returned to cages with everything they needed.

      By then, however, the effects of the stress were already well underway. Researchers made several measurements in mice at 4 days and at 50 days (when mice reach young adulthood) to track how development in the hippocampus varied between mice exposed to stress and the unstressed controls.

      [...] What they found—from counting specific populations of cells, measuring behavior, and gene expression—was that the hippocampus appeared to mature significantly faster in the stressed mice during their seven weeks from birth to early adulthood.

      Sounds like it could be both. =)

      I'm surprised that I've not yet seen in the comments any exposition of personal experiences on being stressed during childhood. Or am I the only nerd here who was mercilessly bullied during my years in public school?

      I was young for my grade and small for my age and thus a favorite target of bullies. I quickly learned that any attempt at a physical response just ended up with me getting beat up even more — I was no match for their size and strength.

      I think that counts as "stress".

      Didn't take long for me to discover that I needed to be aware of everything that happened about me — there was no telling when/where an attack would come next. Taking in all that additional data required a good deal of mental processing to make sense of it all. My hypothesis is that was a positive feedback on intellectual development.

      Now, I don't know if this is a case of post hoc ergo proctor hoc [wikipedia.org], but I excelled in my studies, too. I am happy to report that, after a great deal of effort, the social difficulties this engendered have largely subsided to the extent that at times I am even able to be extroverted.

      So, my fellow Soylentils, were you bullied in school, and, if so, what are your thoughts on the impact (pun!) of that on your intellectual development?

      --
      Wit is intellect, dancing.
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by devlux on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:51PM

    by devlux (6151) on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:51PM (#345434)

    In the past 150 years or so, the age of adulthood has moved from 12 to 18 and now there is evidence that the adult brain isn't fully formed until the age of 25.
    Yet Alexander the great conquered the known world by the time he was 25.

    Now I'll be the first person to admit that lifespan, education and other opportunities are a huge contributor here.
    If your life expectancy is 25, it makes a lot of sense to settle down and start cranking out kids at a young age.
    When your life expectancy is 50, not so much and let's face it at 60 and above anything lower than 20 is just gross.

    Perhaps the neurological bit is due to the lack of stress? Back when your available life choices amounted to get a job apprenticing at age 12 or starve to death, you were forced to grow up early and take responsibility for your decisions. This is stress. But you could be treated as an adult because you were expected to think like an adult and this shaped you into an adult.

    Now we seem to have this unending eternal childhood. I have to wonder if the cause of that isn't developmental retardation due to molly coddling our special little snowflakes to the point that they no longer know what personal responsibility is anymore. They lead effectively stress free lives with almost no expectations from them that are of the serious "live or die" kind that our ancestors had.

    Oblig... Kids these days, get off my lawn etc. God I'm getting old.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bitstream on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:58PM

      by bitstream (6144) on Thursday May 12 2016, @11:58PM (#345438) Journal

      The unending childhood is kind of related for the need to educate and be creative. Having a set brain doesn't cut it in some professions.

      • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @01:52AM

        by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @01:52AM (#345473)

        Accountability is all I'm talking about here. Not creativity nor mental flexibility. These generally don't decline until middle age anyways.

        • (Score: 2) by bitstream on Friday May 13 2016, @02:11AM

          by bitstream (6144) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:11AM (#345479) Journal

          Many people loose their real powerful imagination early on and become these empty adults. Which are very grown up but also when you get into it quite empty.

          Put it this way. If you had talked about how one could get to the moon in the 1930s. What kind of people would have found it interesting, figured out it was possible, and perhaps even understood the basic principles on how to do it? That's the difference between people that can get into things that may exist but currently doesn't and there's no existing frame of reference to hold on to. Same goes for computers around the same time.

          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday May 13 2016, @02:26AM

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 13 2016, @02:26AM (#345485) Journal

            Many people loose their real powerful imagination early on and become these empty adults.

            AI have (anecdotal) reasons to believe that, up to an age when one is still free of degenerative diseases, this is a fault of the education** system rather than a limitation of the human brain.

            --

            ** or rather taming... err, "conditioning" [wikipedia.org], I mean.
            "It is me that holds the carrot and the stick. So obey! - you'll have to stay some exams, passing them is more important than the development of your mind"

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
            • (Score: 2) by bitstream on Friday May 13 2016, @02:55AM

              by bitstream (6144) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:55AM (#345496) Journal

              I would rather say it the adoption of bad thinking rather than any physical disease. It's easy to go with the (stupid) crowd and do what the teacher tells you. But not think for yourself.

              • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @03:32PM

                by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @03:32PM (#345686)

                I'm always shocked how much we think alike in this regard.
                I like to call the phenomena you described, "herdwiring".

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Francis on Friday May 13 2016, @02:13AM

          by Francis (5544) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:13AM (#345481)

          You're not seriously suggesting that things aren't anymore complicated than they were previously, right.

          The age keeps creeping up because society no longer needs those workers at that age and the consequences of making mistakes in difficult to judge situations are bigger.

          • (Score: 4, Insightful) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @02:30AM

            by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:30AM (#345486)

            Depends on your definition of bigger or more complicated.
            Making a mistake used to mean you died.
            I'd say that's worse than just about anything the modern era can throw at a kid. There really are little if any consequences of concern until we reach a magical date of 18 and now there is a push for 21, possibly even 25. I'm gonna take a guess here and say the reason the age is moving up on "adulthood" is that adulthood is a learned reaction to being stressed. Give it enough time and we'll be looking at 50 as just too young to be responsible for their actions. It's no joke, just project the age of adulthood vs the median expected life span.

            Here is a summary of my entire comment and point.
            The article says that stress causes the brain to prematurely grow up.
            I'm saying it sounds more like lack of stress introduces developmental delays, I don't see where they looked at that.

            • (Score: 2) by Bobs on Friday May 13 2016, @02:54AM

              by Bobs (1462) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:54AM (#345495)

              Remember driving: starts around 15-16, and is the biggest killer of teens by far.
              (fricken PDF: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db37.pdf [cdc.gov] )

              • (Score: 4, Interesting) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @03:25AM

                by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @03:25AM (#345506)

                Traffic is also a killer of adults, deer and millions of fuzzy bunnies the world over.
                http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa-cause-of-death-by-age-and-gender [worldlifeexpectancy.com]
                Looks like suicide is a pretty close second, which I think provides support for my position.

                In the absence of environmental stress, kids only have their peers and their peers aren't really equipped to get them through this age because they're dealing with their own issues, thereby retarding development and leaving them unable to cope in the real world.

                On the other hand, that same chart shows a doubling of suicide rates for GenX, so perhaps my whole premise is flawed?
                BTW what the hell is going on with GenX that we're out suiciding the millenials by 2:1 and dying of poisoning at a rate of 3:1 compared to our kids?
                Is there something wrong with the data there? Or am I wrong?

                • (Score: 2) by acid andy on Friday May 13 2016, @08:09AM

                  by acid andy (1683) on Friday May 13 2016, @08:09AM (#345567) Homepage Journal

                  On the other hand, that same chart shows a doubling of suicide rates for GenX, so perhaps my whole premise is flawed?
                  BTW what the hell is going on with GenX that we're out suiciding the millenials by 2:1 and dying of poisoning at a rate of 3:1 compared to our kids?
                  Is there something wrong with the data there? Or am I wrong?

                  Is it possible there's just a strong correlation with the age of a person, rather than their date of birth? Also where are you getting the 2:1 and 3:1 ratios? The ranks for suicide in the table look about the same from age 15 up to 44 (all rank 2 for Both genders) and for people older than that it tails off.

                  --
                  If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
                  • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @03:22PM

                    by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @03:22PM (#345679)

                    It's not immediately obvious, but the ages are links. You click them and it will sort. The 2:1 & 3:1 are napkin math on the differences between the numbers.

                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Friday May 13 2016, @12:36PM

                  by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday May 13 2016, @12:36PM (#345612) Journal

                  GenX were promised success if they worked and studied hard, and feel particularly betrayed that the American dream is further out of reach for them now than it was for their parents who didn't go to college, whereas Millenials have always understood that it's bullshit because their parents and older siblings and relatives clued them in? Dunno, shooting from the hip on that one...

                  --
                  Washington DC delenda est.
                  • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @03:47PM

                    by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @03:47PM (#345691)

                    I'm willing to buy that. However the question was more along the lines of "Has anyone done a study on this?"
                    We're the ones in power now.
                    If we're going to have a war on something, let's do a war on stupidity and try to sort out the cause of poisoning and suicide, which combined appear to account for more than half the GenX deaths each year. (willing to bet the poisonings are suicide BTW).

            • (Score: 1) by Francis on Friday May 13 2016, @08:27PM

              by Francis (5544) on Friday May 13 2016, @08:27PM (#345825)

              It still means that. It's just that unlike in the past, it's far less predictable what's going to get you killed now versus back then. In the past there were diseases that you basically couldn't avoid, predators, accidents and starvation.

              We've done a brilliant job in the developed world of handling diseases, predators and starvation, but there are a much larger and more varied set of accidents that can befall us. And we don't just have things that can kill you now, we have things that can cripple you for decades as well as ensure that you never manage to dig yourself out of the hole you've gotten yourself while others profit off it.

          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by quintessence on Friday May 13 2016, @06:16AM

            by quintessence (6227) on Friday May 13 2016, @06:16AM (#345549)

            If anything, life is more simplified in a sense. Division of labor (although there are more things to keep track of).

            Back in the day, most EVERYTHING from raising crops to raising barns was of your own accord (with some limited input from neighbors). While there are more things, the knowledge base is superficial. A mate discussed his parents (hillbillies) during the depression with some recently transplanted city folk.

            They were clueless about how to make a life from scratch, and the particulars from how to make soap to how to hunt and preserve food, etc. You really don't understand how complicated "primitive" living is until it is looking down the barrel at you.

            And the kicker- they (hillbillies) were in their teens while the transplants were 30ish.

            Working age is an excuse. There is a lack of opportunity to exercise your discernment through a goodish portion of young adulthood now. It is impossible to have the faculties to make good judgments unless you are allowed to fail (gently).

            It's that tension between intelligence and wisdom. While the current generation is certainly more educated and intelligent and cosmopolitan (which is a type of complexity), they crash and burn spectacularly in value judgments (the oncoming student loan crisis).

            • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday May 13 2016, @12:45PM

              by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday May 13 2016, @12:45PM (#345615) Journal

              they crash and burn spectacularly in value judgments (the oncoming student loan crisis).

              There is an oncoming student loan crisis, but I doubt there's any illusions about it anymore. You incur the student debt because there is no alternative in an economy that demands college degrees to work at McDonald's. So you take the debt on, earn the degree, and hope you win the lottery of a job in a career that you'll hold down long enough to pay off the loans and then start saving up to buy a house and have kids. I don't think it's a coincidence that the average age women have their first child has been creeping up steadily at the same time that home ownership has been dropping.

              It's especially fun that while the bankers are extracting interest on the debt you incur to go to college, they're turning around and undercutting your ability to pay them back by outsourcing the best paying jobs or importing H1-B's to undercut the wages of Americans doing the same work. Everybody in the Middle Class in the US (and perhaps elsewhere in the world) knows they're taking it both ways, and the desperation and anger are rising and you have the Trumps and Sanders rising (but that's another topic).

              So, no, I don't think it's a case of today's people making poor value judgements. It's that every system that surrounds them has been rigged to their daily disadvantage and they don't see a way out. So they play along. For now.

              --
              Washington DC delenda est.
              • (Score: 2) by quintessence on Friday May 13 2016, @02:02PM

                by quintessence (6227) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:02PM (#345644)

                Although less common now, I would regularly run across kids with over six figures of debit aiming for careers that at best net $40k a year. When asking them how they intended to square that circle, there was a persistent vague best of all worlds obliviousness to their financial ruin. A troubling amount weren't even aware of what their field paid, let alone long-term job prospects.

                More recently, I overheard a conversation with someone who works at the CDC describing working in the health field to a girl who had just applied to the nursing program. Except she can't stand the sight of blood, thinks feces are "icky", and has a Howard Hughes level of paranoia about germs. Her entire frame of reference is an episode of Grey's Anatomy. That's about $70k pissed away.

                While I'm sympathetic that the financial market is rigged (and the irresponsibility of lending essentially kids that amount of money), I'm not going to absolve them for at no point questioning their direction in the years they spend at university. A $100k later and you realize it was a mistake? Good for you.

                • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @03:29PM

                  by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @03:29PM (#345684)

                  >I overheard a conversation with someone who works at the CDC describing working in the health field to a girl who had just applied...

                  Not being facetious here, but that candidate has bright a career ahead of her in nursing. Up until you become an RN the only 2 skills you need to be great at your job are a pretty smile and the ability to follow directions exactly.

                • (Score: 2) by sjames on Friday May 13 2016, @08:14PM

                  by sjames (2882) on Friday May 13 2016, @08:14PM (#345814) Journal

                  The first paragraph is a perfect example of not being able to afford looking at the problem. If they do, their choices shrink down to slit wrists, jump off bridge, or self hanging. So they ignore the problem as best as they can to have a happy illusion for a while at least.

            • (Score: 2) by sjames on Friday May 13 2016, @08:09PM

              by sjames (2882) on Friday May 13 2016, @08:09PM (#345812) Journal

              OTOH, the parents didn't have to get a building permit/bribe the inspecter, fight the tax asessor's strange notion that the barn added $200,000 value to the property, etc, etc. Making soap isn't that complicated. Dealing with a bored official who claims your small and well controlled fire is illegal is much more complicated. So is explaining to an over-excited cop that you're not cooking meth.

              The division of labor makes a lot of things easier, but getting a job is now much harder than going out there and hooking up the plow. The latter isn't even an option for most.

            • (Score: 1) by Francis on Friday May 13 2016, @08:29PM

              by Francis (5544) on Friday May 13 2016, @08:29PM (#345827)

              I don't entirely disagree here, but I do think that you greatly underestimate the amount of complexity of the mistakes and we have bumpers only on some things. Make a few financial mistakes and you might never live it down. But, in the US it's unlikely that you'll starve to death for lack of food.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday May 13 2016, @01:24AM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 13 2016, @01:24AM (#345458) Journal

      When your life expectancy is 50, not so much and let's face it at 60 and above anything lower than 20 is just gross.

      For the young and unaware.
      The incidence of Down syndrome jumps quite significantly between 35 and 44 maternal age [ds-health.com]. Seems like the age of father also contributes significantly [webmd.com]
      Keeping into account that the Down syndrome is only one of the possible congenital defects, better mind the time you have for making kids.
      Which raises (or sharpens) the interesting dilemma in the current economic context: job or family? In a few years it may reach an "either/or" point for most of the OECD countries.

      If this advances further (in the name of "increased productivity"), I can imagine a (SciFi-ish) world in which the norm is: have kids at as early age as possible, finish your school afterwards (say, by the age of thirties), get a job afterwards and then take care of grandchildren

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @01:45AM

        by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @01:45AM (#345465)

        Good find there, but that would be one of the prime reasons I picked 20 as opposed to say 30 or some arbitrary rule such as 1/2 your age +7.
        Women have been acknowledging that their eggs have an expiration date since biblical times...
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah [wikipedia.org]

        Point of fact, we've known for millenia that reproductive outcomes are directly related to overall health and most people don't tend to get healthier as they age.

        Unfortunately we're also pumping ourselves and our children full of hormonal analogs such as Soy which is an estrogen analog.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens [wikipedia.org]

        (note the following is my opinion and when I went to research it, I found compelling evidence I might be wrong, so make up your own mind)

        If I had to hazard a guess, I would say it's a primary reason why we're seeing a much higher incidence rate of precocious puberty.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433562/ [nih.gov] (this says my theory is inconclusive for boys, but pretty compelling for girls)

        Our kids are growing up physically way too young and yet coddled to a point that they cannot develop mentally into an adult at an age where historically speaking they would have been at least a young adult and out on their own.

      • (Score: 2) by compro01 on Friday May 13 2016, @04:44AM

        by compro01 (2515) on Friday May 13 2016, @04:44AM (#345532)

        Or alternatively, assuming the hypotheses work out : Collect eggs/sperm in prime, combine them (IVF) at your leisure.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday May 13 2016, @05:03AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 13 2016, @05:03AM (#345536) Journal

          Collect eggs/sperm in prime, combine them (IVF) at your leisure.

          If you can afford it when still young enough.
          With the "housewife/breadwinner" a reality sacrificed to the "productivity" a very long time ago, with a work/life balance succumbed to the same about 10 years ago, with skyrocketing cost of education and student loans... if you don't have time today for a family, what make you believe you'll have enough... ummm... "leisure" to pay for sperm/egg cryogenic preservation? (currently in the range of $10k for freezing, $500-$1k/y preservation, $5k IVF implant procedure).

          Note that IVF has not 100% success rate and the more you keep your sperm/eggs in cryo, the lower chances of success IVF will have - it's not like you can upgrade your sperm/eggs with ECC [soylentnews.org]

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 13 2016, @01:45AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 13 2016, @01:45AM (#345466)

      Here I thought that in Jewish tradition one was not an adult until 33 years of age.

      • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @01:50AM

        by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @01:50AM (#345471)

        I looked for the 33 and well I dunno if perhaps you meant 13 or you were joking but...
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah [wikipedia.org]

        Looks like the age is 13 for boys to become men and 12 for girls to become women.
        I confess that I do not know a lick about Jewish culture though, so perhaps I'm wrong. Anyone who knows better please feel free to step up and put up correct info.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 13 2016, @02:12AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 13 2016, @02:12AM (#345480)

      molly coddling our special little snowflakes to the point that they no longer know what personal responsibility is anymore

      You forgot to sprinkle in references to SJWs and blasts at "both political parties". I'll be amazed if you are *not* a regular listener of political talk radio.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 13 2016, @02:31AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 13 2016, @02:31AM (#345487)

        I'll be amazed if you are *not* a regular listener of political talk radio.

        And who the fuck do you think really cares about what a special little AC snowflake is amazed of?
        Make an argument or be prepared to be modded irrelevant.

      • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @02:56AM

        by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:56AM (#345498)

        Well I avoided those references because there are a multitude of parties here. One of the nice things about being an expat.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Mexico [wikipedia.org]

        Problem is my Spanish isn't good enough to know what any of the pundits are on about when they do hop on the TV or radio.

        I dislike everyone equally, no reason to call out any specific group. I hate herdwiring in general.

        I can only respect people who are able to think for themselves. People who can't think for themselves are these "snowflakes" I keep referencing.
        Although I am starting to develop a healthy respect for folks who can recognize when they weren't so much "thinking" as mentally regurgitating.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by sjames on Friday May 13 2016, @02:38AM

      by sjames (2882) on Friday May 13 2016, @02:38AM (#345489) Journal

      There is the minor matter of education. When you could function as an adult at 12, literacy was a "plus" for getting many good jobs. Care to see what's available for a 7th grade dropout these days (if it was even legal). Of course, back then, you didn't need to be able to fill out tax forms or be able to drive a car (since there were none). Now, not graduating from high school is frowned upon even for the most menial jobs. That makes it hard to be a functional adult until you're at least 18. Of course, more and more, the sort of jobs that won't be replaced by robots are demanding a degree pushing back fully functional adulthood to 22 or so.

      That's not to say that helicopter parenting and CPS thinking it's not even OK for kids to be in their own front yard without a parent present is helping matters any.

      Of course, we go the other direction as well. Incidents in school that used to be considered youthful indiscretion and were handled internally are involving police and courts.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Friday May 13 2016, @02:53AM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 13 2016, @02:53AM (#345494) Journal

      Yet Alexander the great conquered the known world by the time he was 25.

      One doesn't need too much of a mind to cut the Gordian knot, does one? Only a bit of teenager anger and recklessness.

      Speaking of recklessness:
      - he was dead at 32, highly probable because of a successful assassination (not enough mind to distinguish between friends and foes or judge their interests?)
      - 50 years after his death, his empire was no more [wikipedia.org] (but a set of kingdoms fighting with each other).

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @03:09AM

        by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @03:09AM (#345502)

        Well ok, fair enough. Alexander was a bad example here.
        There are still a ton of examples out there of young people who have managed to absolutely change the world who wouldn't have been old enough to pick their own bedtime in today's world.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday May 13 2016, @03:28AM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 13 2016, @03:28AM (#345508) Journal

          Mind you, I'm not denying Alexander the Great changed the world - without him, it's likely there would not have been a "Library of Alexandria".
          Nor am I saying that the life-span available for remarkable feats was much shorter during antiquity.
          So your example is not actually that bad.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by redneckmother on Friday May 13 2016, @04:36AM

    by redneckmother (3597) on Friday May 13 2016, @04:36AM (#345527)

    Okay, mod me down (I'm off topic), but I must say this post has provoked some excellent discussion... way to go, Phoenix666! And, thanks for placing it into play, martyb!

    To all those who have posted comments, Thank You! This is one of the most fascinating discussions I've read here.

    Pray, continue. I have concerns about the state of society and our Youthful Ones, and I'm getting a lot of perspectives.

    --
    Mas cerveza por favor.
    • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday May 13 2016, @12:58PM

      by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday May 13 2016, @12:58PM (#345619) Journal

      Thank you for saying so, redneckmother. The discussion has been thoughtful. Many perspectives, and everything clearly and respectfully stated.

      --
      Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 2) by martyb on Friday May 13 2016, @01:13PM

      by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 13 2016, @01:13PM (#345623) Journal

      Okay, mod me down (I'm off topic), but I must say this post has provoked some excellent discussion... way to go, Phoenix666! And, thanks for placing it into play, martyb!

      Thank YOU for the feedback. On occasion, being an editor feels like putting a sign on my back saying "kick me!"

      One saving grace is when I see a discussion unfold from which I gain an entirely different perspective on a subject, much like has developed in this story's comments. And, being human, an occasional positive comment like yours goes a LONG way, too!

      Credit most definitely goes to Phoenix666, who has submitted a great number of stories.

      That said, this site depends on the community, not just a few select people.

      Of late, our submissions queue has run pretty dry. The editors, above and beyond their usual tasks of selecting, reviewing, editing, and posting stories, have had to seek and post their own stories to keep things running.

      If only 0.1% of the site's visitors submitted a story, we would have more than enough to meet each day's need. So, if you happen upon a story that you enjoyed, or made you go 'Wow!', or just thought it might be of interest to someone else, please submit it as a story! [soylentnews.org] It can be as simple a process as:

      • Include the link of where you found it,
      • copy a few paragraphs of what seems to catch the gist of the story,
      • add a sentence or two of what/why you found it interesting,
      • and click submit.

      One of our community, GungnirSniper [soylentnews.org] offered up further suggestions on what makes a good story and these can be found in our Submission Guidelines [soylentnews.org].

      Did you know that each submission we publish earns you 3 karma points, too?

      So, again, many thanks for the positive feedback — made my day!

      --
      Wit is intellect, dancing.
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by devlux on Friday May 13 2016, @03:41PM

        by devlux (6151) on Friday May 13 2016, @03:41PM (#345690)

        >Did you know that each submission we publish earns you 3 karma points, too?

        Yeah but Karma seems to max out at 50. What's the point of playing the game if we can't level up anymore? :D

        Great article, good edit. Awesome comments everyone.

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by Phoenix666 on Friday May 13 2016, @06:58PM

          by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday May 13 2016, @06:58PM (#345789) Journal

          That's why you should have chosen a dual-character class. You level up more slowly but you get to enjoy the benefits of both specialities. For example, I'm a half-troll Submitter/Shit-stirrer (Lvl 6). I'm really, really looking forward to hitting Level 7 and gaining the "Petrify Grammar Nazis" spell...

          --
          Washington DC delenda est.