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posted by martyb on Wednesday June 01 2016, @02:55PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the unintended-consequences dept.

Devuan, the once devil-may-care total fork of Debian, once linked to virulent internet sexism and gamer-gate affiliated image forums by Debian Developer Russel Coker, has mulled the option of enacting a Code of Conduct when one of its female members was insulted:

> https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-25/?page=2
>jaromil today i was scrolling through http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_...
>golinux Well, I tried but couldn't find anybody. Then nextime popped up
>jaromil jeez. we need to take precautions. and also I get the point from Sarah Mei we need a code of conduct on-line and later for on-site http://www.sarahmei.com/blog/2015/02/01/the-fos...
> its never too early for that
>
>golinux One can only control one's own actions. ;)
>
>jaromil ah the wise one
...
>Wizzup he is doxed?
>jaromil that's him. we have a dossier yes

Devuan has been criticized for taking a "who gives a damn" and "real admins do it all by hand themselves every install" attitude towards security hardening scripts, and despise in particular any mention of the "bastille" linux hardening script (originally funded by Mandrake Linux).

Interestingly when Devuan was forming, the people behind Devuan cited the very person they are considering making the code of conduct against:

> http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141027
>VUA: It will be a governing body that puts the benefits of the users first, not the mystification of a "doacracy" delivering all the power to the package maintainers.
>Originally, Debian was created as a universal operating system for the users. The Free Software movement itself is there to defend users' rights. Sgryphon explains it well in this thread. ( http://www.debianuserforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=3031 )
>We will likely reproduce the governing body of Debian to follow its original mandate, with the advantage of starting small and more focused, hopefully with less pressure from the interest of commercial developers.


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  • (Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:07PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:07PM (#353484)

    I guess I need to click those 20 links to understand the backstory for the code of conduct because I sure can't pull it out of the summary.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:15PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:15PM (#353488)

      Someone said misogynist things and touted their own programming prowress while pea-cocking in-front of apparently offended lessers.

      Now a Code of Conduct is needed.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:20PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:20PM (#353525)

        I don't think anything justifies a CoC, but for anyone who cares he (greg_____) calls golinux a cunt and says that women don't contribute code. Earlier, he asked another user if he was a fag. He later has some statements about how women and men are different, and the various races are different. Unless you consider the mere recognition of race racist, I didn't see anything racist (discriminatory or insulting) being said. I only skimmed, so don't think I'm downplaying something if I missed it. This is all in the first link, you kids are capable of searching the page.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:32PM

          Ya, that's what we call a "troll". Trolls say whatever they have to to get under your skin. There is no ideology behind anything they say.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:51PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:51PM (#353558)

          you kids are capable of searching the page.

          No, you kids are capable of following links to figure out what is going on. We adults prefer a (preferably) concise summary to give us the gist of the topic so that we can decide whether we want to follow any links. We threw out that "CLICK HERE FOR IMPORTANT INFO" crap 20+ years ago on the web as acceptable behavior.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:01PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:01PM (#353604)

          golinux is a cunt tho, or are we 'strylian and should call her a shellia? Don't like the english, invent your own language.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:16PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:16PM (#353489) Homepage Journal

      Someone is acting an ass, so the community resorts to passing some laws. Standard fare, really. I'm not digging in to find out whether the guy is really an asshat, or some portions of the community are just doing the SJW thing.

      --
      There is a supply side shortage of pronouns. You will take whatever you are offered.
      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:17PM

        Probably both. They're not mutually exclusive.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:17PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:17PM (#353688)

        That is 'we refuse to enact a CoC because CoCsucking is not yet an olympic sport.' Furthermore any women, minorities, etc who wish to contribute should either 'man up', like their forebears Ada and Hopper did in order to obtain their emininently respected status, or go to a systemd based distro where touchy feely is more important than getting shit done.

        Furthermore if somebody DOES become a problem, just dox them to anonymous and let the mob handle them :)

        Having been involved in the IRC discussions over this exact debate for a major P2P project which decided to formalize a CoC, I can say it divides the community far more than any venomous and toxic individuals can, and just as often lowers productivity rather than inspiring it.

        I hope to hell they don't do this since CoCs go hand in hand with software like systemd and just provide both a technical and social burden on people who would by and large rather just Get Shit Done(TM).

        Maybe they could look into rebranding themselves as 'CoCFreeGSD'... the OS for people who don't have time for petty internet debates or social contracts :)

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @07:01AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @07:01AM (#353893)

        Someone is acting an ass, so the community resorts to passing some laws. Standard fare, really.

        Not really. On LKML, if someone is acting an ass, they get told to go away or find someone else willing to deal with them to act as a middle man.

        Seems to me that the LKML approach works much better.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:21PM

      Wouldn't help. The entire second half of the summary has nothing to do with the first.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:36PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:36PM (#353503)

        The second link is malformed, and the third link points to a story with no mention of devuan.

        The editors have outdone themselves in forwarding an even more incoherent pile of broken nonsense than I ever remember.

        No news is better than incoherent drivel.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:42PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:42PM (#353506)

          by 3rd, I meant 4th, but the 5th also is a dead reference.

          2/5 - well done Anonymous Coward submitter.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by kurenai.tsubasa on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:54PM

      by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:54PM (#353514) Journal

      Here's the summary as best as I can gather by reading over the IRC chat log. Can't spend all day "compiling" so anyone feel free to correct me.

      greg_____ is the "infamous" Gregory Smith who is apparently banned more places on IRC than I am! Now that's an accomplishment! Imagine somebody like me who hates all women instead of just cisgendered ones.

      Apparently he started out pissed off about some Linux kernel patch that some guy is trying to sell as closed-source software in violation of the GPL. He's trying to get somebody who has standing to sue. Got into an argument with some high school kid (Chanku) about the merits of GPL vs. MIT.

      So then golinux pops up and identified greg_____, which caused him to change the tune of his tirade to focus on golinux. He goes on about how he's got 11k of some 4gb game fork and maps and mods and music etc etc. Good for him. He also points out that he inspired Devuan. Then it's completely downhill from here.

      Choice quotes from Greg. (Separating different lines with "/", note that he's addressing golinux and fsmithred with a ":" as is usual on IRC (most of us here likely already know that).)

      golinux: you're a woman, you would not understand working everyday for a hobby you love. / and the pain inflicted from taking some time out of that to argue for a fork of debian / fsmithred: women do not do shit.

      "There is no male nor female, no jew nor greek, bla bla bla" / obvious lies

      There is male, there is female. / There is Jew... greeks... there are some, and then there are turks that call themselves greeks / and there is free, and there is slave.

      At some point here somebody switches the channel to moderated and voices everybody except Greg. Amusingly, our old friend MikeeUSA popped up as cylinder: "golinux men used to marry young girls."

      So all in all I think it was well handled. If I'd been me, I would have fully expected to be banned. One other thing I gathered was that the ops in the channel didn't immediately respond, but obviously somebody did something because after the channel becomes moderated, golinux got op and crash course in /voice and /ban.

      I don't think Devuan needs a code of conduct. Perhaps some kind of commitment from volunteers to actively perform op duties in the channel would be a good improvement.

      But I honestly have no dog in the fight. I've never played distro politics. I use Gentoo currently but I'm fully capable of doing Linux from Scratch again if something happens to Gentoo.

      Only thing I'm wondering at this point... is MikeeUSA's real name Gregory Smith?

      • (Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:12PM

        by janrinok (52) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:12PM (#353542) Journal

        Mikhail Kvaratskhelia, mike3usa, 2asueekim, Miguel Ghobangieno, Mikee, Mike, Mitch O’Brian, Drew Armon, Hell Yeah, shivas, No2systemd, cyb3r, rewt, fsck_systemd, ChaosEsque Team, May Epper, IronPass, heat cannon, vote-for-choice, Gregory Smith (on LKML, Youtube), Brad Townshend (on LKML), John Garret (on LKML), Steve Stone (Youtube), mv.

        You will note that the name Gregory Smith does appear, however, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the information regarding the names, which I collected from here [wikia.com].

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:30PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:30PM (#353582) Journal

          LOL, I'd forgotten about that sack of shit. He used to post here all the time, until he either got IP-banned or got sick of me exposing his real name and paedophiliac interests every time he broke cover :)

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:10AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:10AM (#353787)

            He was on pipedot for a while.
            Until he found that his pedobear posts were being marked as spam.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:04PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:04PM (#353605)

        >MikeeUSA popped up as cylinder

        Why the fuck is he called "cylinder" now, lol.
        Is it an allusion to a "cylinder" fucking up their friendly IRC chat?

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Celestial on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:14PM

      by Celestial (4891) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:14PM (#353522) Journal

      Yeah. This is quite easily the worst and most confusing summary I've ever seen, and I've submitted a half-dozen stories so that's saying something.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:01PM (#353706)

      When a project adopts a CoC it means they've fallen to the SJW. Devuan's fate depends on whether they kick out the adversary or surrender.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:10PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:10PM (#354035)

      Github was about to do it: https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-conduct [github.com]
      What was this "TODO Group's Open Code of Conduct?" Look: http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/ [todogroup.org]
      In particular, you see gems like this section:

      Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:

              ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’
              Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you”
              Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts
              Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial
              Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions

      Shitty identity politics feminazis are running around trying to force their ideologies down the throats of developers using "codes of conduct" and the anon behind Opal wasn't having the trans girlie's shit: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 [github.com]

      There's plenty more info out there on the subject. Bottom line is that it's a trick used by wannabe dictators to convert a software project into their own ideologically conformant "space" that provides a soapbox for them to continue being shitty people and try to create more shitty people. As with all things "social justice," it is a cancer that must be cut out before it destroys the host...and boy, will it ever destroy the host!

      Love,
      FemiNotSee

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by garrulus on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:17PM

    by garrulus (6051) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:17PM (#353491)

    they will get SJW'd if they do, and automatically turn back into debillian.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:32PM (#353528)

      The problem with debian is not 'SJW', it's systemd.

      besides, all I saw in the links which actually pertained to Devuan was just the banning of an asshole from a chat. I.E. a non story.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:24PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:24PM (#353549)

      In the adult world it is assumed that people can manage their own behavior and act somewhat professionally / civilly. Personal attacks of any sort are frowned upon. Pretty much every community online and off have some code of conduct The ones that don't are just one asshat away from creating one.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:41PM

        Indeed but for most of the world it's called "common courtesy" instead of a codified CoC. No law/regulation was ever written that wasn't immediately abused and this applies doubly to CoCs. Common law and likewise common courtesy do not have this problem.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:09PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:09PM (#353569)

          Yeah that's what I was going for, and pointed out that creating CoCs is a result of repeated (generally) poor behavior. The CoC is then something that anyone can point to and say "knock it off or you'll get banned / whatever". Not everyone knows what common courtesy is...

      • (Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:14PM

        by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:14PM (#353572)

        The ones that don't are just one asshat away from creating one.

        I don't understand why people in theoretical positions of power in the 2010s are so cucked. In "the old days" admins had ways of dealing with asshats. Its my server, my way, or the highway. When your login is "root" or admin then you'll make the decisions and judgment calls about your server.

        One of the many virtues of authoritarianism, or agency, or whatever you want to call it, is you don't need to hide behind paperwork when wielding the banhammer. Especially when you're fighting a whopping one individual person.

        Dude was a jerk, rambling about off topic babble, non-cucked admin shoulda swung the banhammer, done. No need for ridiculous theoretical CoC arguments.

        Don't even need to apply the banhammer, a culture of authority means things don't have to get ridiculously out of hand prior to some admin worthy of the position pointing out "... and going forward you'll behave on my property ..." problem solved.

        The problem with cowardice as a policy is it never really ends. "boo hoo I have no agency to do anything without some 3rd party approved paperwork" means you simply don't belong in a position of power, not brave enough. What is the real title of a position of authority if the leader has no authority or power or judgment? Its just very strange.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:35PM

          by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:35PM (#353586)

          I don't understand why people in theoretical positions of power in the 2010s are so cucked.

          I don't understand why people keep using the word "cuck" in different contexts and expect us to know what they mean.

          --
          "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
          • (Score: 2) by chromas on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:31AM

            by chromas (34) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:31AM (#353800) Journal

            Short for cuckold. Effectively, people using the word are saying the subject is so brow-beaten by his wife/girlfriend that she'll fuck other guys in front of him because he's not man enough to satisfy her, and she's probably just using him as a cash dispenser (as opposed to the more 'proper' usage in which he wants to watch).

            • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:56PM

              by tangomargarine (667) on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:56PM (#354047)

              I'm familiar with the term "cuckold" but people keep using it in political contexts. Or is it just a more highbrow way of saying "his penis isn't big enough"?

              I'm basically allergic to anyone using "patriotism" or "party unity" or "not being a pussy" as an argument in a political context. If you don't have any better argument than that, you have no argument at all, and in fact I'm likely to default to the side of whatever you're arguing against.

              (the rhetorical "you")

              --
              "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
        • (Score: 1) by r1348 on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:54AM

          by r1348 (5988) on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:54AM (#353737)

          Giving so much arbitrary power to an admin, means your community is one bad admin away from dissolving. Giving that in community projects like most Linux distros there's more at stake than plain good behavior, a set of objective rules is advisable.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @07:14AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @07:14AM (#353898)

            Are there more at stake at one distro than there is on LKML? Or have we just forgotten the concept of choosing the projects where we mostly agree with the person in control?

            Personally I've had more luck with Linux and Slackware than I've had with any of the "committee"-based projects.

        • (Score: 2) by mojo chan on Thursday June 02 2016, @08:54AM

          by mojo chan (266) on Thursday June 02 2016, @08:54AM (#353936)

          It's because we went from it being one person and their small personal project to vast collaborative efforts involving hundreds or thousands of contributors, and millions of users. With very few exceptions, the dictator model doesn't work for large open source projects.

          --
          const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:13PM

            by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:13PM (#354011)

            The problem with that otherwise mostly correct interpretation is we're talking about an IRC channel with like 5 participants and one is a jerk.

            If you're admin of a 5000 person email list, that's different than a 5 person IRC channel. When you have 10 admins and 9 admins agree 1 admin is a jerk, that can be fixed.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:58PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:58PM (#353602)

      If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever: https://theoreticalideations.com/ [theoreticalideations.com]

      Just read the insipid writings of this cretin.

  • (Score: 4, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:19PM

    Q: CoC?
    A: Suck it.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:21PM

    by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:21PM (#353496)

    Is that what I'm supposed to find in her blog post? Because I don't. She complains that the conference doesn't have a code of conduct...although they do have a "will not be tolerated" clause. You want them to spell out each individual thing that isn't tolerated?

    joke about the women there being girlfriends

    Okay rather tactless but hardly an insult directed at her personally.

    I don’t get harassed any more.

    #articledoesntagreewithsummary

    --
    "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:29PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:29PM (#353500)

      I read a feminist in The Guardian who simultaneously blamed all men for a toxic culture of harassment and cat-calling, and her own feelings of inadequacy because she doesn't get cat-called or harassed anymore.

      Some people just want to complain.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Gravis on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:35PM

      by Gravis (4596) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:35PM (#353502)

      read the IRC log and there are gems like these:

      <greg_____> golinux: you're a cunt woman I heard
      <greg_____> golinux: you're a woman, you would not understand working everyday for a hobby you love.
      <greg_____> fsmithred: women do not do shit.
      <greg_____> golinux: oh cunt, can't take the banter

      code of conduct won't make a difference though because this tardo has been banned multiple times and is evading bans.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:08PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:08PM (#353520)

        Purpose of a code of conduct is rarely to address unwanted behavior, but to give an appearance of doing "something", much like a mission statement.

        A certain segment will go wild attempting to codify every slight they've ever encounter in the code, while another will whine that it is stifling to the point of umbrage, and then you have an ever increasing tit-for-tat escalation.

        Group dynamics doesn't work in an unidirectional fashion, as most people don't needlessly go out of their way to offend, and even when offense occurs, code of conduct is the least effective way to address it.

        Then again, there are certainly a lot of under-socialized people out there, and sometimes you do have to inform them shitting in the coffee pot isn't the culture here.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:52PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:52PM (#353559)

          Nah, you're understimating what's going on. This one shitlord offended some special snowflake and the event is being used by manipulative social justice crowd to further their agenda.

          SJWs want to institute speech codes in tech circles like they did in universities because that's the first stage of getting a gaggle of fence sitters to side with them over moderation decisions over bullshit infractions. This is one step along the way in replacing the decision makers and ousting any wrongthinking individuals who don't agree with their politics.

          This only sounds crazy until you realize that this is how Mozilla was destroyed from within and that SJWs have even planned to target key Open Source community members with false rape/abuse accusations. [ibiblio.org] Political Correctness [youtube.com] is the primary ideological cancer poisoning the west, and esp. STEM. [ibiblio.org] It is a tool used by subversive elements to take control of cultural landscape and is promoted by useful idiots who believe themselves do-gooders when they're really just political pawns.

          For the record, I don't hate SJWs, they're just pawns of the Cultural Marxists who are hell bent on causing race and gender wars to bring about societal collapse and then communist revolution. [youtube.com] History hath shewn SJWs are the first against the wall once they succeed in leveraging the bogus "oppressed/oppressor" Marxist rhetoric and agitate sufficient unrest.

          That's the big sad picture. Just listen to that KGB defector in the last vid, once you realize the things he said were their goals, and that's what has come to pass thanks to the SJWs then everything starts to make sense. This bullshit culture war sure makes forums annoying, but that's the true nature of this SocJus beast: Sew unrest by pitting Poor against Rich, Men against Women, Gay vs Straight, Black against White, and then the crisis will come. Never should the oppressor help the oppressed -- they can only shut up and apologize and accept the new Codes of Conduct. Never will the grievances of SJWs be appeased because it's really a "Permanent Revolution" meant to divide us so we can be more easily conquered.

          TFA is just documenting one small opening and move in the giant game of subversion that's afoot.

          • (Score: 2, Informative) by letssee on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:26PM

            by letssee (2537) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:26PM (#353578)

            You guys need to smoke less weed. It's making you paranoid.

            • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:28PM

              by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:28PM (#353715) Journal

              They probably didn't allow the flower to mature enough before harvesting it. Remember, people, check your trichromes before harvest! As Treebeard was fond of saying, “Don't be hasty!”

              (Yep, harvesting only a few weeks into the flowering phase does tend to cause the finished product to cause paranoia. Always know who your grower is! Buy only American bud, and help Make America Great Again™! Ok, for all I know, Führer Trump will probably send in the army to shut down states that have legalized. But still, buy American!)

          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:40PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:40PM (#353625)

            Feminism predates marxism and is a proud product of france and (some decades later) england.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:06PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:06PM (#354083)

              feminism is now a uselessly ambiguous term, it covers (amongst others)
              - the view that all sexes should have equal legal rights
              - the view that all sexes should have equal outcomes ... even if that requires unequal rights and opportunities
              - the view that we should get rid of the male sex alltogether (lookup Society for Cutting Up Men, going back to the scum manifesto from 1967)

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:10PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:10PM (#353610)

        "cunt woman"

        -1 redundant.

        (or was it a translation for the 'muricans who don't know AEnglish?)

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:38PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:38PM (#353504)

      ...did you seriously just skim the post to pull out the specific quotes to build a strawman? Or, perhaps, did you simply stop reading?

      The full article context indicates that while she doesn't get harassed anymore (she even speculates on reasons why), she mentions that other women she's spoken with still experience harassment.

      She also notes that the code of conduct is alienating, and in the comments, notes further that simply having the code of conduct is not sufficient, as there must be training and some sort of enforcement system.

      Look, the thing is this: we, as a society/community, are still trying to figure out where to draw the line between 'culture of misogyny' and 'individual asshole acting alone'. It's an extremely difficult line to draw, but we should not be so hasty as to proclaim that this is a non-issue and that everything is solved forever.

      If women are still being grabbed anonymously or being placed into high-pressure, unpleasant situations, that's evidently uncool, and we - as a society - should address it. Doing nothing and pointing at a clause is sort of ineffective.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:46PM

        or being placed into high-pressure, unpleasant situations, that's evidently uncool

        The hell you say. If you can't take the heat, male or female, fuck right off out of the kitchen. You want respect, earn it by fighting back instead of whining like a little bitch.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 3, Flamebait) by http on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:41PM

          by http (1920) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:41PM (#353531)

          I don't know why you refuse to see that women are treated horribly (by design) and experience society differently as a result. Women get placed into orgainizational situations where there is not only heat, but threat or actuality of co-ordinated social and physical attack for no other reason than not being male. Suggesting that they have to be battle hardened MMA champions or expert defense lawyers, on top of being productive go-getters, just to participate... you're a jerk in favour of an evil status quo.

          --
          I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
          • (Score: 4, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:57PM

            No, sweety, women are simply abused as women because it gets under their skin. Men take no less abuse but it has to come in other forms because we are proud of our gender; and we still don't cry about it. If women want respect from men, they have to be something men can respect. They have to earn it.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:48PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:48PM (#353556)

              Men take no less abuse

              This is false. A simple search [duckduckgo.com] finds a lot of studies on the topic of varying quality, although they all determine that women are harassed more. The clearest one is this study [umd.edu] which created new usernames for the study and found that female-named users got an order of magnitude more harassing messages.

              Harassment of men happens but on nowhere near the same scale as harassment of women.

              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:56PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:56PM (#353562)

                The more nuanced picture is that men are harassed more overall, but women receive more sexual/gendered harassment. So men and women experience harassment differently. Most of those studies focus on sexual harassment only, which is why they erroneously conclude women suffer more.

                http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/22/pew_online_harassment_study_men_are_called_names_women_are_stalked_and_sexually.html [slate.com]

                http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/04/men-are-harassed-more-than-women-online.html [thedailybeast.com]

              • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:58PM

                Hi, you must be new to the Internet. Welcome aboard. Expect regular harassment when you do something stupid like you just did. Dumbass.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 4, Insightful) by letssee on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:36PM

                  by letssee (2537) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:36PM (#353588)

                  Considering you sig is a sausagefest, I think there is some confirmation bias at play in your worldview. :-)

                  I don't know if you have any female friends, but if you do you should ask them about it. Women get harassed a lot more than men.
                  Some women object, others don't care. You don't notice it, because you're not a woman walking down the street alone.

                  How often in you live have you been groped and/or slapped on the butt in your life? Now go and ask your female friends, their 'score' will probably be higher.

                  I don't blame you. It took me some time to accept it. I did not want my world to be that way. But it is, and we should try to fix that.

                  Of course that will attract some powerhungry whiners. They are everywhere. However, that should not stop us to try and make our wolrd a better place for everybody.

                  • (Score: 2) by jdavidb on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:47PM

                    by jdavidb (5690) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:47PM (#353650) Homepage Journal
                    I feel like whether or not women are harassed more is a red herring. In some situations, people don't want to be disrespected, and therefore some communities prohibit some or most forms of disrespect. Meanwhile, some people value letting everybody have a say regardless of whether or not they are disrespectful, and therefore there are communities that will never prohibit disrespect.
                    --
                    ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
                  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:17PM

                    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:17PM (#353687) Journal

                    OMG this, this, this! ^

                    It's so easy to ignore a problem when it doesn't happen to you. When people accuse you, Runaway, of "male privilege," this is what they mean: men are not, in the main (i.e., not institutionally) subject to this sort of behavior. It happens, but it's not on a society-wide scale. Not that that makes it okay when it does happen of course, but it's not men who are told to travel in groups and watch their clothing and avoid the opposite sex. It's not a lifestyle-shaping factor for men.

                    This is a pervasive problem and most of the time we don't talk about it. Why? Because we get responses ranging from "Not a big deal, no harm no foul" to "Boys will be boys" to my favorite "Well, you must have done something to provoke it." Really? I dress modestly, my boots make metallic noises when they hit the ground toe-first, and people STILL try this crap with me. No other behavior problem--or crime--is given this kind of latitude.

                    --
                    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:01PM

                    My sig's a quote from a cartoon. Get you some perspective.

                    No, they do not. Well unless you only count harassment with a sexual tone. Read the rest of the comments, studies have already been pointed out and linked.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @06:12AM

                      by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @06:12AM (#353873)

                      Of course your sig is a joke. But using this quote as a sig, and not another, means it resonates with you. So it does say something about you.

                      There are studies which prove women don't get harassed as often as man? Hahaha! I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

                      • (Score: 1) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @06:28AM

                        by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @06:28AM (#353878)

                        Oops, screwed up a sentence there. I meant to say:

                        "There are studies proving women don't get harassed more than men?"

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 02 2016, @10:14AM

                        If you're really interested in the backstory, watch Undergrads. It's pretty hilarious. Many a good, quotable moment like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-AvqBMjsUs [youtube.com]

                        Yeah, it's nifty how people will believe what they want contrary to facts being presented to them.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 1) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @11:27AM

                          by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @11:27AM (#353989)

                          It's funny how I was thinking the *exact* same thing about you :-)

                          I blame google's search bubble.

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:50PM

                            You've been given studies that debunk the utter hell out of the studies you're relying on for your opinion and you've submitted none that debunk those studies. Who's got the confirmation bias again?

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 1) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:59PM

                              by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:59PM (#354082)

                              I think the main reason that we can't agree is that you seem to be talking about 'online only'. Where there are indeed some studies to backup your viewpoint, though if I look through duckduckgo's results it's really all over the place, with some studies saying it's about equal and some studies saying women get a lot more.

                              I'm talking (mainly) about real life events, where catcalling and buttpinching are apparently considered 'normal'.

                              I blame the confusing summary, which smushed together a few unrelated links.

                              btw, I don't get why you are so irate. I'm trying to have a civilized discussion here, no need to start swearing.

                        • (Score: 2) by http on Wednesday June 08 2016, @05:46AM

                          by http (1920) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 08 2016, @05:46AM (#356726)

                          Undergrads, yeah, know the reference and wish I didn't. Sexual harrassment of women as a requirement for entry into a fraternity? Such hilarity.

                          There's a reason people are frequently attacking what you write concerning women: you're saying indefensible shit. Please, do yourself and everyone else a favour and stick to coding the website only. You're good at that, and it lets the adults talk.

                          --
                          I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:33PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:33PM (#353671)

                Pretty interesting search terms you use. When using the string "harassment men women" gives a very different view:

                https://duckduckgo.com/?q=harassment+men+women&ia=news [duckduckgo.com]

          • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:16PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:16PM (#353543)

            I don't know why you refuse to see that women are treated horribly (by design) and experience society differently as a result.

            Because that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Women are (in the west) the political, social, and economic equals of men. There are some places in the world that still desperately need feminism, but not the USA.

            Women even have some unique, unearned, privileges and protections carved out for for them such as preferential treatment in family and divorce courts, protection of bodily integrity, and a virtual monopoly on domestic violence resources despite making up nearly half of abusers themselves per the CDC (http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/)

            • (Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:28PM

              by edIII (791) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:28PM (#353618)

              but not the USA.

              You're suffering from our shit- doesn't-stink-syndrome, as well as those who've moderated you "informative".

              Because that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

              Then you're deliberately ignoring the evidence all around you.

              protection of bodily integrity

              If you mean I can't take a small girl and chop off her clitoris, then yes protections exist. If you're speaking about the right of a woman over her own body, I suggest you expose yourself to the Republican party where a woman's body is subject to God's law, and by extension, the laws that Republicans pass.

              A woman's bodily autonomy is not respected in the U.S., and assertions to the contrary are inane. At most you could say that women have some very hard fought for autonomy in certain places in the U.S, but only after all the red tape and bureaucracy designed to obfuscate and hamper their abilities to enjoy it. You only need to look at Texas with a single abortion clinic left about to close over regulatory burdens purely designed to close the facilities, not engender a woman's bodily autonomy. Texas doesn't give a shit about a woman's bodily autonomy. So even where women are allegedly protected by laws, there isn't a whole lot of respect for women. At least not ideologically, and only in a begrudging fashion, which is the only way to explain the Republican party's entire attitude towards women and minorities.

              unique, unearned, privileges and protections carved out for for them such as preferential treatment in family and divorce courts

              Hardly unique, I'm sure other countries have family courts. Likewise, it's hardly unearned either, as they never had to earn it. Family courts tend to side with the mothers as a cultural predilection towards child rearing (the man earns the money,the woman takes care of the children), not that the mother is automatically correct. That's hard to say it isn't earned, as tens of thousands of years of human existence has attested that women are fairly good at the raising of children. As somebody who's had experience with this (numerous friends and family), the courts do not provide unearned protections and privileges towards women. Often we can see the children placed with the father, even though the mother is actually best suited. You're just plain wrong about family courts, they are not unfairly sided towards women, and there are plenty of examples of both genders being treated unfairly at one point or another. That shouldn't surprise you since not all fathers and mothers are equally suited towards child rearing.

              and a virtual monopoly on domestic violence resources despite making up nearly half of abusers themselves per the CDC

              I highly doubt the numbers in whatever article you've provided, but as somebody with experience in outreach programs, you're full of shit. We don't have enough domestic violence resources as I'm having problems placing a lady right now. The reason why it is not as geared towards men? Men have all the money and power typically in these relationships, and where abused, have far greater abilities to leave and still provide for themselves. After all, if the paycheck follows them.....

              It's rare to see a man abused that is forced to stay with his abuser in order to maintain a standard of living. In most cases the man chooses to stay over egotistical notions that they're the man and they should, instead of telling that bitch to pack up and leave (or the man packing up and leaving her). It's ridiculously common for women to not have a choice and the lady I was trying to help is back at home with her abuser precisely because of a dearth of domestic violence resources in my region. I just don't have, or have even heard of, a single male requesting help from the outreach program I assist with. That being said, I know we are set up to help him should he make the choice to seek it.

              After all of that... we could speak about earnings. That is not equal, and there is more than enough statistics that show that women in comparable jobs earn less than male counterparts. You can complain all you want about it and try to explain it away, but at the end of the day women earn less for the same jobs and same work.

              The U.S is not some shining beacon of gender equality, and in fact, we are kind of complete fuckups at equality in general.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:13AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:13AM (#353791)

                If you mean I can't take a small girl and chop off her clitoris, then yes protections exist.

                And if you perform an equivalent act on a male baby, you're just a doctor--or a religious Jew/Muslim. No protections for males; female privilege.

                In most cases the man chooses to stay over egotistical notions that they're the man and they should

                Wow, nice victim blaming, asshole. I know that shit wouldn't fly if I used the same argument against women and it would be just as true--which is to say, not true at all. So that's two double standards in your wall of mental diarrhea. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your misandry.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:56AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:56AM (#353840)

                  You should go study some anatomy before commenting on related matters.

            • (Score: 2) by http on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:38PM

              by http (1920) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:38PM (#353623)

              You haven't been paying attention - it's not an extraordinary claim. You're ignoring the evidence the people in the thick of it are providing. Oh, and saveservices is/was run by a mail-order bride company... not exactly credible. If you actually read the report, it doesn't claim what they say it claims - one in a hundred woman slapping a man in the face doesn't compare with three men in a hundred decking a woman with one, two, three haymakers and don't you dare get back up.

              So shut the fuck up, AC. Even if you're trying to claim that a scratch is the same as a hospital visit, and go read tables 4.1 and 4.2 which DOES make that simplification - page 38 of the report [cdc.gov], page 48 of the pdf. For women, lifetime physical violence 33%, 39 million; for men, 28%, 32 million.

              --
              I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
              • (Score: 2, Informative) by http on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:41PM

                by http (1920) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:41PM (#353626)

                Oh, and if case you don't feel like doing the work yourself to educate your sorry self, the same report (I know, reading hard) lists stats of 30.3% of women experiencing severe physical violence versus 13.8% of men in their lifetime.

                --
                I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
              • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:47PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:47PM (#353652)

                Men and women are abusers and victims at about equal rates, and in equal intensity. Sorry.

          • (Score: 3, Funny) by VLM on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:46PM

            by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:46PM (#353597)

            co-ordinated social and physical attack

            AFAIK there's one troll on the devuan lists. How does one individual coordinate social and physical attacks?

            This is one of the problems with CoC-fever or whatever the SJWs themselves call it. A thundering herd of strange hair colored buffalo from tumblr cannot snort and stampede because "one guy on the internet is wrong and we must fix that" without expecting to be made fun of.

            Abstracting out all the gender, "right now someone is writing C code if (a = b) and not understanding whats wrong, we better have us a riot!" how can that not be laughed at? Woo woo woo call out the internet police someone doesn't understand the difference between comparison and assignment better call the whaaaaaahbulance also, woo woo woo !! How is that not equally comedy when applied to "well heres someone who don't know how to talk to girls in a civilized manner"

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:25PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:25PM (#354087)

            physical attack? I don't know what backwaters you frequent, but I've _never_ seen that happen (and yeah some people get mugged or raped, but that's not a normal circumstance and not all that common)

            social attack, yeah sure
            BUT the same is true when you are a male in a female dominated environment, I've been there as I was on the front edge of the making the schools coed in Belgium (and quite frankly the only way to change prejudgment/stereotypes, is to just stick it out and proof them wrong with your actions, in every other approach the cure is worse then the disease)

        • (Score: 1) by letssee on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:54PM

          by letssee (2537) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:54PM (#353534)

          If men did not (yet) earn their respect, they don't get kneaded in the balls by random strangers when they visit a conference.

          This has nothing to do with respect for ones achievements. It's about a complete lack of decency in some (predominantly) males.

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:17PM

            Horse. Shit. It is entirely about respect. And trying to conflate insults with groping is bullshit equivalency. Still, the solution is the same. Demand respect in all cases and respond appropriately when it is not given.

            Pro-Tip:
            Kneeing someone in the nuts for groping you: good
            Whining until policy is to assume all men are going to try groping you: bad.

            Strong women I respect. Strong men I respect. Whiny little pussies of either gender can go fuck themselves.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 1) by letssee on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:45PM

              by letssee (2537) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:45PM (#353594)

              Did you read the all the links? The chat was pretty tame, just an asshole getting banned from a chat. Nothing special.
              There were other links which did talk about groping and the like.

              And that's a very real problem.

              > Whining until policy is to assume all men are going to try groping you: bad.
              Bullcrap. Saying 'no groping' and making it easy to report if it does occur is just making the place nicer for everybody.

              Some people just need to be reminded. 99.99% of people who don't need to be reminded don't need to be offended by the 'no groping policy'. If you put hundreds of people in a close space together, possibly involving alcohol, you need some rules and a way to enforce them. That's just the reality of life.

              >Strong women I respect. Strong men I respect. Whiny little pussies of either gender can go fuck themselves.
              So the football jocks are A-ok and the nerdy geeks with the glasses should just shut up already?

              I beg to disagree. Not everybody (especially in the software geek world) is strong/brave enough to go the physical route.

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:58PM

                <sarcasm>Yeah, because it's totally not douchebaggery of the highest order to treat all men like criminals so that snowflakes can have a false sense of security.</sarcasm>

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 1) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @06:44AM

                  by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @06:44AM (#353883)

                  Having a CoC and the means to help people who have been harassed is *not* the same as treating all men as criminals. That are your words, not mine.

                  30% of all females is not the same as 'some special snowflake'. Of course not all men are harassers. It's only a small percentage.

                  Not all people are burglars, and still we as a society have laws against it.

                  A code of conduct (in the software world) should never ban harsh words. Linus Torvalds giving someone the burn is an example of 'can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen'. There I completely agree with you.

                  However, attacking someone just because they are a woman is something different.

                  And the number of women who report being groped at conferences is way higher than acceptable. Why is it bad to try and fix that?

                  Your tactic seems to be sticking your fingers in your ear and saying lalala I can't hear you. Which is also a way of making the problem go away I guess.

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 02 2016, @10:15AM

                    So, to be clear here, you are asking for special treatment because of your gender?

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 1) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @11:48AM

                      by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @11:48AM (#353998)

                      No, I'm not.

                      I confess that my writing is not always as clear as it is in my head.

                      All I'm saying is:

                      -Women get harassed a *lot* more than men, even tough theoretically speaking they are equals (today, in the western world). If you don't believe this is true, you should just pay a bit more attention or ask your female friends about it. I can't really believe you dispute this fact. How many guys are catcalled in the streets? How often have you been jokingly squeezed in the buttocks by a total stranger? For women these things are just a fact of life.

                      -Trying to fix this is a worthy thing, even if it means you'll have to deal with the occasional power hungry scheming politician (or feminazi, as you'd probably call them) as a result. Explicitly stating (at a conference, or a forum, or a chatroom) that harassing people (note, I say *people*, not women specifically) is not tolerated is a first step in giving harassed people some way to defend themselves.

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:48PM

                        Ah, so you're just ignoring studies that disagree with your position then. You really have no clue what it is like being a man if you think you get more harassment. A very small minority of jerks aside, men treat women much better than they treat other men. We just don't cry about it; it's simply part of life. You have not a clue.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 1) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:02PM

                          by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:02PM (#354032)

                          >Ah, so you're just ignoring studies that disagree with your position then.
                          that makes two of us :-). But honestly, I try to read everything with an open mind.

                          But if you are honestly convinced women don't get catcalled more often and don't get more unwanted sexual attention, then there's nothing I can do to convince you. Maybe you're just lucky to live in the unicorn garden where that's indeed true. In that case, please let me know where it is :-)

                          Regulations are always about a small minority of jerks, never about the majority.

                          Anyway, over and out and many happy returns :-)

        • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:02PM

          by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:02PM (#353540)

          On the other hand:
          1. Private organizations like Devuan do not have any kind of obligation to tolerate somebody who routinely refers to every female person they encounter as a "cunt", which this guy apparently does. And it's not unreasonable to make some rules about that sort of thing with the consequences ultimately of being kicked out of the group. (They could, of course, also just kick him out for no reason at all if they so chose.)
          2. Coding isn't really supposed to be a high-pressure situation. Most coders do not do their best work when under pressure (try writing a bugfix with 10 managers sitting behind you shouting if you don't believe me), and especially with an open-source project it's not like there's some sort of deadline that will really affect anything if it's not met.
          3. Volunteer efforts to create something definitely shouldn't qualify as an "unpleasant situation". There's a good practical reason for this, namely that if your volunteers decide it's an unpleasant situation, they won't be volunteers anymore, and your effort will fall apart.

          I understand thinking along those lines when the question is whether somebody's going to risk life and limb to prevent nuclear weapons from falling into the wrong hands. I can even kinda understand it when it's a question of whether the startup will be doomed by missing its release date. But I don't see how the sorts of thinking that applies to people who are volunteering their time and resources to create some open-source code.

          In other words, you seem to be going out of your way to justify being a jerk to people when there's absolutely no reason to do so, which is just straight-up bullying, something you should have gotten out of your system by about age 12 or so.

          --
          Alcohol makes the world go round ... and round and round.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:30PM

            Dude, we kick Ethanol-Fueled in IRC when he's being too big of a douchebag. We don't need a policy that tells us we should. Devuan shouldn't need one either. Just decide on a level of courtesy that you want as a community and enforce such. Without playing favorites to any ideology or person. There's no need to codify it. That only leads to abuses.

            2-3 Coding low-pressure? Fuuuuck. You've not read the LKML much apparently. Either way, see above for the solution reasonable, adult human beings use.

            which is just straight-up bullying

            Only pussies cry about being bullied. Anyone worth respect fucking deals with it. You also seem to be trying to imply that I'm other than amiable to my fellow team-members. Try again, douche-nozzle. I respect every member of the staff and treat them with the courtesy I expect in return. You, however, got up in my face acting a cunt and are being treated as such.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:34PM

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:34PM (#353585) Journal

              Why do you keep using cunt and pussy as insults? It sounds like you don't particularly like them, to my admittedly untrained-in-the-fine-subtleties-of-masculine-thought ear :) Especially with how every other post is an opportunity to make a "suck it" joke.

              Just saying, you don't generally use something you like as an insult. It'd be like a fat kid calling someone "chocolate cake."

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:44PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:44PM (#353627)

                Young girls (female children) are nice.

                Busted cunt bitches aint.

                Why should men like women when there are girls?

                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:54PM

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:54PM (#353632) Journal

                  Hah, I knew you were still around here somewhere, Karavatskhelia :D You're as predictable as clockwork and not even half as useful.

                  Real men (yes, I know the irony of a lesbian saying this...) are not afraid of women who are their equal. If anything I would expect a man with that high an opinion of himself to WANT an Amazon with a genius-level IQ, as she would be worthy of him.

                  You, of course, are terrified, absolutely TERRIFIED, by the power of the poonani, so you can only function with a much smaller and weaker partner. Sad, really.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:09AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:09AM (#353764)

                    >with a much smaller and weaker partner.

                    Sounds wonderful. A cute female child. And not a partner; a subordinate.
                    As the God spoken of in the book of Deuteronomy intended.

                    • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Friday June 03 2016, @01:52AM

                      by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Friday June 03 2016, @01:52AM (#354312) Journal

                      You couldn't handle an Amazon woman for precisely the reasons you put forward, you coward. Hide behind your sky wizard. Maybe you want a little girl because you are nothing but a little boy.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2016, @02:35AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2016, @02:35AM (#354987)

                        >You couldn't handle an Amazon woman for precisely the reasons you put forward, you coward.
                        Yep, don't want to handle no heifers

                        > Hide behind your sky wizard.
                        Gladly

                        >Maybe you want a little girl
                        Many are so cute.

                        >because you are nothing but a little boy.
                        Doesn't bother me. Keep making money for your boss.

                • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:34AM

                  by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Thursday June 02 2016, @01:34AM (#353754) Journal

                  Damn it, MikeeUSA! If Azuma and I agree on one thing, and I repeat myself here, go the fuck away, MikeeUSA!

                  You know what? Have a -1, boot to the head!

                  Seriously, if you aren't what I suspect you are, please get help. Consider cannabis flower.

                  Until then: -1, boot to the head!

              • (Score: 3, Funny) by Jiro on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:14PM

                by Jiro (3176) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:14PM (#353665)

                Why do you keep using cunt and pussy as insults? It sounds like you don't particularly like them, to my admittedly untrained-in-the-fine-subtleties-of-masculine-thought ear :) Especially with how every other post is an opportunity to make a "suck it" joke.

                Just saying, you don't generally use something you like as an insult. It'd be like a fat kid calling someone "chocolate cake."

                Don't be a prick.

                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:06PM

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:06PM (#353684) Journal

                  See, THAT is proper usage of it :) I don't particularly care for pricks, so being compared to one actually makes sense as an insult.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:05PM

                Because they are insults; effective ones. What, you want cunt to not be an insult while dick, prick, pecker-head, etc... remain derogatory? Fuck off.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:38AM

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:38AM (#353829) Journal

                  Did I hit a nerve? A very small, insensitive, and in all likelihood rather under-used nerve?

                  And actually I tend to avoid gendered insults at all, preferring to stick with "asshole." Everyone has them, they are vile, they don't make new lives, and sometimes they are full of shit. Can't really see why male genitalia are insults any more than female ones, but whatever...though I have to admit I do think the guys' equipment is goofy as all hell.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 02 2016, @10:09AM

                    Nope, not even close, but it's nice to see my biggest fan still trying.

                    As for gendered insults, they aren't required to make literal sense as long as they're understood. Such is the nature of the language. It's quirky like that.

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:00PM

                by Thexalon (636) on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:00PM (#354050)

                In my experience, there's an inverse relationship among men between using terms for female genitalia as insults, and actually interacting with female genitalia as much as the men in question desire. As in, horny desperate boys use those terms all the time, happily married men rarely do.

                In short, if The Mighty Buzzard got laid more often, he might see those body parts as beautiful instead of dirty or insulting.

                --
                Alcohol makes the world go round ... and round and round.
                • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:56PM

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) Subscriber Badge on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:56PM (#354125) Journal

                  Between that and his .sig I have to wonder if he bats for the other team...

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:27PM

            by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:27PM (#353579)

            And it's not unreasonable to make some rules about that sort of thing with the consequences ultimately of being kicked out of the group.

            Astoundingly I have no disagreement with 99% of your post other than the small detail of if you can't trust the judgment and authority of admins, then the problem isn't the lack of a written policy for every possible problem that could ever occur, its that you need new admins or you need to trust them enough to let them off their leash. Or if you're not going to trust admins to ever administrate at all, then abolish the position entirely and stop pretending you have admins.

            Making a complicated system of rules lawyering never helps anyone in the long run. Someone people trust and respect in a position of power will, if nobody gets in their way, do the right thing. Or they'll get replaced.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:24PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:24PM (#353576)

          If the kitchen, as you put it, is tough, then so be it. But I wouldn't expect sexual harassment to be part of the 'toughness'. I don't get harassed at work, but it is a reality for many people, men or women. As a society, do we wish to accept that?

          With regards to the usefulness of code of conduct, how do you know when the 'community' has decided on a certain level of courtesy? Because if it's not set in writing somewhere (and yes, this opens to discussion and rules lawyering and other bullshit), then what it really means is, "whatever I say it is". And if I happen to be more connected/popular/in charge of the server than you, then it's not community consensus, it's dictatorship or politics at best. Hopefully benign or even benevolent, but a dictatorship nonetheless.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:21PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:21PM (#353667)

            sexual harassment

            > sexual harassment
            > online

            Chose only one.
            How is that even a thing, like close your eyes dumbass. Twitter PTSD isn't a thing no matter how much SJWs try to "make it so".

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:36PM

            Nothing wrong with a dictatorship as long as it's unobtrusive and just stays out of the way until it's needed. It's certainly preferable to the guaranteed oppression of the minority by the majority that is the definition of democracy.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 1) by letssee on Thursday June 02 2016, @07:10AM

              by letssee (2537) on Thursday June 02 2016, @07:10AM (#353897)

              Best thing to have is an enlightened dictator. Pity power tends to corrupt people, so most enlightened dictators turn into self enriching assholes somewhere along the way.

              "Democracy is the worst system except for all the other ones"

              Though not all democracies are equal. The US winner-takes-all system is slightly worse at protecting the minority from the majority than the multi party system we have in the netherlands. Though it is by no means perfect here.

          • (Score: 1) by Fauxlosopher on Friday June 03 2016, @06:13AM

            by Fauxlosopher (4804) on Friday June 03 2016, @06:13AM (#354380) Journal

            Your alarmism about dictatorships cannot logically apply to private servers, groups, clubs, businesses, etc. The owner's terms and conditions on the use of the property is final, appeals only subject to the owner's whim (and financial ability to continue operations).

            Governments operate on the threat of deadly force, and so laws of free nations have attempted to chain governments down by explicit prohibitions on the use of said force against people for certain activities like speech. (These chains appear not to be very secure, in hindsight.)

            "Community consensus" outside of the very narrow realm of legitimate government authority (hint: you can only delegate authority for things you can already do yourself to a third party, including to a government) is a collectivist fraud, fashioned to steal that which belongs to someone else. Your legitimate recourse for a repugnant private business owner is limited to such things as a boycott, using speech to tell others about the rotten owner, setting up a competing business, etc.

      • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:12PM

        by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:12PM (#353521)

        She also notes that the code of conduct is alienating, and in the comments, notes further that simply having the code of conduct is not sufficient

        Which code of conduct? The one she's complaining the event doesn't have?

        Ah. I skimmed the article to try to figure out what the insult was, concluded it didn't actually have that information in there, and then realized the IRC log was some kind of arbitrary-length thing that keeps loading more when you scroll, then gave up trying to figure out what was going on.

        --
        "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:55PM

      by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:55PM (#353561)

      She complains that the conference doesn't have a code of conduct...although they do have a "will not be tolerated" clause. You want them to spell out each individual thing that isn't tolerated?

      No, as I read her post, possibly the only thing linked in the summary written coherently (although its wrong, at least its well written) and she is angry that the CoC as provided does not assume the guilty party is automatically guilty and does not admit guilt on behalf of the organizers.

      There's two problems.

      One is the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. She doesn't feel that should apply to SJW issues as a superior member of a two tiered establishment. She can also F off and we're better off as a community without someone with an attitude like that. She's like something right out of the middle ages. Her implied attitude is right out of the salem witch trials, right out of nazi era judiciary. Right out of southern women getting blacks lynched for saying he flirted with a white woman. Her belief is purified, distilled, evil, a poison to the community, and if she leaves and takes that belief with her the community will only be healthier and stronger and better for her absence.

      The other problem is sexual harassment is a sue-able offense and depending on definition games can also be illegal. The reason why she wants the CoC to admit guilt in writing, is so she can sue the organizers AND sponsors for all they're worth for intentionally creating an unfriendly environment and doing her the favor of documenting themselves as unfriendly, as fully and intentionally and knowingly liable, as guilty. That will make her what feminists think is a hero. She wants the CoC to read something like "All men participating in this conference as organizers, sponsors, or just visitors are by definition of their participation as our formal written policy, explicitly guilty of sexual harassment" and she wants to submit a photo of that written admission of guilt at her lawsuit for a million bucks. Who cares if she destroys lives and communities as long as she wins at the trial and gets to be the oh so brave hero. No lawyer would be dumb enough to put up a written policy stating our written policy is we're guilty of anything anyone says, so please take all our money from us as fast as possible. Again, she can also F off and we're better off as a community without someone with an attitude like that. Her absence would improve the community.

      The weird thing about evil acts, is her written opinion in this situation is disgustingly horrifically evil. But aside from that she's probably a very nice person. And I refuse to believe all women and therefore all women programmers or attendees are as self admittedly evil as she clearly implies she is or wants to be. Maybe its her idea of a cry for help or attention or pity. Most women are very nice people. More non-evil women would be nice at conferences. But if an otherwise nice person like her can encourage such unadulterated evil, doesn't that mean that anyone, any random nice guy off the street could throw Jews into the ovens? The problem of evil... a classic philosophical problem with no real solution.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:28PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:28PM (#353580)

        tell us how you really feel

        • (Score: 1) by kurenai.tsubasa on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:43PM

          by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @11:43PM (#353722) Journal

          Ok. I think VLM has a good deconstruction of the situation. I've sat through enough presentations by the female equivalent of MikeeUSA to know what it feels like.

          Here's what I really feel. I feel that we have a discussion here going on 105 comments as I write this, Devuan is considering implementing a “code of conduct” which may or may not be sexist and/or cissexist, and all of this happened because MikeeUSA had an outburst.

          MikeeUSA is a crass troll, but he's effective. Where he pops up so do codes of conduct, so does *FEEL GUILTY*. Soylent thankfully dodged that bullet (/me tips hat to our resident Apache attack copter and notes I need to renew my subscription). It is a quite astonishing pattern, no?

          One would think that it were almost as if, possibly, and perhaps my tinfoil is on a bit tight here, and maybe I'm still bitter about being intimidated by Grand Valley State University's rape culture to stay in the closet when I began gender transition, that possibly, maybe, it almost may be the case that MikeeUSA isn't who he claims to be…!

          Naah, that's probably just crazy talk.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Gravis on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:25PM

    by Gravis (4596) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:25PM (#353497)

    this is happening literally because of one person, a troll aka MikeeUSA. i'm not sure what his damage is but he is known far and wide for being a misogynistic prick. [wikia.com]

    now, the problem isn't that he has an unpopular opinion, it's that he treats women like trash everywhere he posts.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:40PM

      S'why you write a CoC like this:

      No rampant douchebaggery.

      And only put people you trust to administer it correctly in a position to administer it.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tfried on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:59PM

        by tfried (5534) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:59PM (#353635)

        Yeah, essentially I agree with your CoC. And for a small scale project it does not leave any questions unanswered.

        Once the scale gets a bit larger, though (and - ironically - as communication becomes more focused on technical issues, at large, and less on informal hanging-out-together), the question of whom do you put in charge of administering the CoC becomes more difficult to solve. You'll want to start discussing just how the person(s) in charge of this will react to offences, and just where they will draw certain lines. What sort of behavior will earn you a rap on your knuckles, what sort of behavior will warrant being kicked of the project, immediately, what are typical terms for those on probation? Also, importantly, how can an offender appeal?

        From those questions, calling for a CoC (aka code of law) looks rather understandable. I do agree, though, that the key questions are who should be in charge of a reaction and how should they proceed, while the what exact sort of behavior should be sanctioned is more of a micro-management question to be answered after those two others.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:13AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @12:13AM (#353728)

          Observation: if you find yourself regularly skirting the hairy edge of Code(s) of Conduct then you might want to do some thinking about how you get along with others in public. Just sayin'.

    • (Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:09PM

      by Marand (1081) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:09PM (#353662) Journal

      now, the problem isn't that he has an unpopular opinion, it's that he treats women like trash everywhere he posts.

      Nah, he also treats everyone who disagrees or calls him out on his bullshit like trash, as well. He's posted submissions here before, trying to pretend he's a third party, and always outs himself when criticism of the agenda he's pushing appears. This submission lookslike more of the same.

      He's just a mentally unstable jackass all around, finds a target and tries to start shit. He does tend to target women, maybe thinks they're easy targets or has a beef with them in his deranged mind, but doesn't restrict himself to harassing them. He's tried starting shit with me (ond others here) but I've been online long enough that I just don't care, he can't piss me off.

      He needs mental help and will never get it so all that's left is to remove him anywhere he appears. The only COC you need is "ban MikeeUSA on sight"

      • (Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:33PM

        by Marand (1081) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:33PM (#353672) Journal

        The only COC you need is "ban MikeeUSA on sight"

        I decided I should elaborate since it's probably not clear: I'm saying that the correct stance for a community in general is not to tolerate repeat offender jackasses that can't be civil to others. Downmod, /ignore, ban, etc. rather than let the trolls derail everything. Everyone has bad days, or says somethhing shitty without intending it, and that's fine. The problem people are the ones like Mikee that never do anything else. You eventually lose the benefit of the doubt.

        It doesn't matter what his opinions are, or anyone else's, the problem is that he can't seem to avoid bringing them into every discussion, no matter how irrelevant they are to the topic, and he always fails the civility test. Most people, when they get told they're being a dick, will either drop it or go "oh, sorry" and move on. But never him, he just keeps doing it while trying to get others involved by misrepesenting the issue to others, cherry-picking what gets pasted, etc.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:12AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:12AM (#353767)

          >ones like Mikee that never do anything else.

          MikeeUSA is a foss dev.

          • (Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:00AM

            by Marand (1081) on Thursday June 02 2016, @03:00AM (#353782) Journal

            Whether he's a dev or not is irrelevant to what I said, and you know it. You cherry-picked a small fragment rather than taking it in context:

            Everyone has bad days, or says somethhing shitty without intending it, and that's fine. The problem people are the ones like Mikee that never do anything else.

            That is clearly stating that the problem is when someone never seems to interact with a community in a positive, civil way. If it's a one-off thing, like if they get into a heated discussion and take it too far, you can usually tell someone to just knock it off, stop being a jackass, and that's enough. Sometimes it isn't and you have to add some force to it, like a temporary ban, or taking away voice in an IRC channel, and that will usually get the point across.

            Then you have the repeat offenders that do this everywhere, and never stop, no matter how many warnings they get, no matter how many times they get kicked, de-voiced, banned, etc. They're just not going to get along with others, and at that point they either have to get told to STFU and just work quietly, or GTFO.

            Mikee is very clearly in the latter camp; this shit has been going on for what, over a decade now? He's a a serial troll, with obvious mental issues and a complete inability to be involved in a community without eventually turning it into a new round of insane, agenda-pushing douchebaggery. Eventually you have to just give up on some people, they're never going to learn to be civil.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:36AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:36AM (#353828)

              >That is clearly stating that the problem is when someone never seems to interact with a community in a positive, civil way.

              The "community" never interacts in a productive way: it just "discusses" and demands.
              Why should devs be civil to that?

              The old opensource way to handle the "community" was the correct one.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @05:01AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @05:01AM (#353843)

              >this shit has been going on for what, over a decade now?
              15 years.

        • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:19AM

          by Hairyfeet (75) <bassbeast1968NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:19AM (#353818) Journal

          Why not just let him say his stupid shit and then point out what a fuckwit he is and then kick him if he doesn't STFU? To quote Mark Twain: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

          The problem with things like CoC is we have seen where that leads, it leads to censorship and discrimination. Whether we like it or not we have to accept the fact that a large portion of our youth is well and truly spoiled to the point they believe its their right to NEVER see anything that doesn't fit within their myopic worldview, else you are "triggering" them or "not providing a safe space" and they will push for more and more restrictions. Ironically the ones they remind me most of is the Moral Majority of the 1980s, take that and mix it with a heavy dose of cultural Marxism and there ya go.

          And as another pointed out nothing these spoiled rotten oversized children like to do more than to sue, its considered a form of virtue signaling and lets them throw the victim card on the table which is their favorite card to play.

          Just remember folks it NEVER stops, first will be Mikee douchenozzle, next will be "ban him he's a misogynist", followed by "ban that one, they are transphobic", then "oh and those, they don't support BLM so they HAVE to be racists" and it goes on and on and on.

          --
          ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:40AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @04:40AM (#353831)

            >first will be Mikee douchenozzle, next will be "ban him he's a misogynist"

            These usually happen at the same time.
            "Ban his code, he is sexist" -2009

          • (Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday June 02 2016, @05:19AM

            by Marand (1081) on Thursday June 02 2016, @05:19AM (#353850) Journal

            Why not just let him say his stupid shit and then point out what a fuckwit he is and then kick him if he doesn't STFU? To quote Mark Twain: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

            That's basically what I meant with the other comments. I don't think there's generally a need to set up rules disallowing people from saying stupid shit, because that just leads to "zero tolerance" type policies that get enforced by tinpot dictators, the real-life equivalent of rules lawyers in D&D games. Usually, if someone's being an idiot, calling it out and telling them to STFU is good enough. If it's not, a temporary ban (or equivalent) with a warning to stop being a dick gets the point across. You only have to resort to permanent removal if the person is just a serial offender that either can't get along or can't seem to understand basic concepts like "This is only for technical discussion, keep personal shit out of it" (for mailing lists or channels that have that focus)

            I used to spend a lot of time on various IRC networks back when IRC was generally more popular and its use more widespread, and there were usually two types of channels: ones that had very clear, very strict lists of rules with a zero-tolerance enforcement policy; and channels where enforcement was looser, and more along the lines of "try to not be a jerk". The latter were usually nicer places to be, and bickering was handled by telling both parties to take it to private message and stop spamming the channel with the bullshit.

            That's also the approach I took with enforcing civility, because usually it was all that was needed. IRC has ignore and private chats, so it's not like you must make your fighting as public as possible. If the op tells you to stfu you can keep it up in /msg if you want, and the other party can /ignore you if they don't want to see it. The flip side of this was that, no, I would not referee someone's petty private bickering; what happened outside of the channel wasn't the channel's problem.

            Maintaining order can be done without restricting someone's ability to occasionally say something stupid. You just have to have people willing to say "hey, that's enough, chill out" and enforce it if things get out of hand. Long-term bans were rarely needed, just for a handful of people whose only goal was to pick fights all day long.

            Just remember folks it NEVER stops, first will be Mikee douchenozzle, next will be "ban him he's a misogynist", followed by "ban that one, they are transphobic", then "oh and those, they don't support BLM so they HAVE to be racists" and it goes on and on and on.

            Yep, that's how it's always been. Following from above, those channels I mentioned that had strict sets of rules and policies for retribution were usually run by the same kind of people that want codes of conduct and use them like a bludgeon to force everybody into line. They were terrible places to hang out, because you always had people trying to wield the rules as a weapon to get people banned. Too many rules just means too many ways to stir up shit when you don't like someone.

            I don't think everyone that likes COCs and rule lists are like that, though. There's definitely a group of people that just have this misguided idea that, if they list a bunch of bad things they don't like, then people won't do them. This subset just doesn't realise that a code of conduct is worthless.

            The reason? Most people don't need one, because "don't be a jerk" is usually sufficient for people. If you tell someone they're being a jerk they usually back off, or maybe try to explain what they meant. If they follow up by continuing to be a jerk, a slap on the wrist (temporary ban, remove voice, etc.) will get the point across, and usually things are fine.

            The other people, though, the ones that can't be dealt with civilly? A COC isn't going to help there, because they're still going to be jerks, with or without it. If you tell those people to stop, they'll just double down on it. Sometimes it's a game, sometimes they're just mental, but the end result is the same: they're just being trolls or fighters and will never quit no matter how many rules you throw up on a webpage they'll never read. For this group, writing up a COC is like giving them a TO-DO list of ways to piss people off.

            • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Thursday June 02 2016, @09:56AM

              by Hairyfeet (75) <bassbeast1968NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday June 02 2016, @09:56AM (#353954) Journal

              Exactly, you don't need a CoC to tell someone not to be a douchenozzle, nor does it take a CoC to spot when someone is trolling like this guy obviously is and tell him to STFU or they'll muzzle him. But if you start writing all these "don't do this, and that as well" frankly they never stop because the oversized 5 year olds that think its their Marx given right to NEVER be offended or see anything that doesn't gel with their beliefs simply will not let it.

              We are SUPPOSED to be thinking intelligent adults, yes? So why would we let our spaces be dictated by shrinking violets that literally lose their shit over merely seeing rude posts by some nutbar? I mean there are some posters here I think are total whack-a-doodles and everything they post is the most inane PC police propaganda bullshit this side of Tumblr, but would I ever censor them? HELL NO, I'll happily let them parrot their mindless completely illogical talking points and point out they are drooling morons and go on, because I'm an adult and know one of the most valuable and precious things we have is free speech and that is completely destroyed if that speech is only allowed to be completely inoffensive.

              But this is why we have to be VERY careful, and fight crap like CoCs at every turn, because we have too many spoiled as fuck professional victims out there that think you and I should not have the right to speak unless we are agreeing with them. To steal a quote I believe I saw on this very website...

              Activists will go out and build ramps for disabled people.
              Social justice warriors will go out and remove stairs for everyone so that the disabled person won't be offended.

              --
              ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
              • (Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday June 02 2016, @10:52AM

                by Marand (1081) on Thursday June 02 2016, @10:52AM (#353979) Journal

                I mean there are some posters here I think are total whack-a-doodles and everything they post is the most inane PC police propaganda bullshit this side of Tumblr, but would I ever censor them? HELL NO, I'll happily let them parrot their mindless completely illogical talking points and point out they are drooling morons and go on, because I'm an adult and know one of the most valuable and precious things we have is free speech and that is completely destroyed if that speech is only allowed to be completely inoffensive.

                Slightly off topic, but if you (or anyone else that reads this) ever just get sick of seeing a specific poster's comments on here, or want to reduce the urge to argue with a certain person, you can get the next best thing to an ignore feature by setting them as "Foe" and then under the "Comments" section of your preferences page, give Foes a -6 Karma modifier. As long as your breakthrough threshold is 0 or above, it'll bury anybody marked Foe by default. You can still see the comments if you want, of course, but it can clean up the comment section a lot.

                I actually like it more than a proper ignore feature, since it doesn't completely block the comments, just makes them hidden by default. There are a couple people here who, though I don't have a problem with personally, I just find their writing annoying and prefer not to see everything they say. If it were a full block I wouldn't be willing to use it, since they still sometimes say useful things, so it works out much better than a proper block for me :D

                • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Saturday June 04 2016, @02:32AM

                  by Hairyfeet (75) <bassbeast1968NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday June 04 2016, @02:32AM (#354985) Journal

                  But to me that is self censoring and I honestly do not care for it,if you like it fine, but I figure I'm a big boy and can ignore the dipshits and the ones that have guzzled too much of the white liberal guilt koolaid.

                  Besides if you never see the whack-a-doodles, how are you ever gonna provide a counterpoint of sanity? Its like when I pissed off the neo-nazis in Dallas in the 80s, everyone was booing them or just ignoring them but not me...I went around the corner, bought some craft paper and made up my own little sign that read "Ask me about the camps" and told anyone who asked about my grandfather who was a CMS in charge of communications in the USAAF and was there when they liberated one of the camps. He told of bodies stacked like cordwood, traincars filled with corpses, not being able to tell male from female because they were so starved, and even having to tell his men NOT to give food to them because they had been starved for so long that the really rich chow the soldiers got would throw their bodies into shock, they instead had to make a weak soup to keep from overloading their weakened systems.

                  Needless to say the nazis didn't like it so much and when the cops stood between them and me and said "its a free country, he has a right to speak too" they packed up and left. Booing didn't make them leave, ignoring didn't make them go away, but providing some truth to counteract their lies? As Louis Brandeis said " Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants". So don't ignore them, call them out on their lies, nothing the whack-a-doodles hate more than a big old fistload of truth.

                  --
                  ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                  • (Score: 2) by Marand on Saturday June 04 2016, @07:31AM

                    by Marand (1081) on Saturday June 04 2016, @07:31AM (#355039) Journal

                    But to me that is self censoring and I honestly do not care for it,if you like it fine, but I figure I'm a big boy and can ignore the dipshits and the ones that have guzzled too much of the white liberal guilt koolaid.

                    Well, the only ones I've done it for are aristarchus and Arik. The former because 90% of what he writes is incoherent babble, and the latter because I got tired of seeing the monospace font comments and his arguments about why everyone else is wrong about how they look. It doesn't hide the top-level comments, and if it looks like they may have said anything relevant I can always expand their replies to others. I don't have anything against either person, and if it were a case of choosing an all-or-nothing block, I wouldn't do it because sometimes they say things worth reading. If they actually bothered me, I'd spend more time arguing with them, but they don't. I just like that extra bit of control over the presentation of their comments; with aristarchus it's just a time-saver, and with Arik it's a pet peeve about the text styling rather than any issue with the comments themselves.

                    It's definitely not a trick I use often... I've only got the two there, and I can count on one hand how many people I've put on ignore on IRC over the past 20 years I've been using it, with fingers still left over. I'm especially reluctant to block someone completely, because I'd rather see what's said and choose whether I want to see it. Which is why I like the -6 karma thing here, it's just "hide by default, choose when I want to see it" much like how you and others here tend to browse over the AC threshold. Hell, I don't even do that; I view at -1 with breakthrough 0 so that I get all the comments, but have to manually expand the -1s. I do it because I want to fix bad moderation, but I decided early on I didn't want to have the -1s start out expanded because of the APK-style super-long-post spam and the like.

                    Also, your story's interesting, and I fully agree with that sort of approach. Giving people the attention (the booing and such) is usually what they want, and ignoring it can be justified as silent agreement, but doing something different that derails it can be effective and satisfying. I don't have any stand-out stories that come to mind, but I like the approach and do similar things where I can, when I can.

                    In a similar vein, I'm always ready to call out something I think is bullshit for what it is, especially online, because if nobody stands up and provides a contrary argument, then others later might take it for silent agreement and get the wrong idea. It's not about proving someone is wrong, though; it's about putting the rebuttal out there so others reading can make their own decisions based on the original comment and the response. It's practically impossible to change someone's views by arguing with them, so it's never for their benefit that I do it. Plus sometimes the other person wants that argument, and I'm not interested in playing that game. Say what I have to say and leave it at that.

                    What's nice is when I see something I want to reply to, but find that someone else already said more or less what I wanted to say. Saves me the time of writing and proofreading, because ultimately I'd rather be lazy than waste the time just to see myself talk. :)

                    • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday June 05 2016, @02:12AM

                      by Hairyfeet (75) <bassbeast1968NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday June 05 2016, @02:12AM (#355367) Journal

                      aristarchus? Oh yeah the one that thinks all white people should be executed and worships black penises...yeah he's a real whack job, that is why I love posting FBI stats when he starts his whack-a-doodle white guilt narrative, I can imagine that little vein in his head just a throbbing at being faced with reality...Sigh its the little things that make you all warm and fuzzy, yay know ;-)

                      As for the other one...is he the horrible font guy? I automatically skip his shit, if he insists on making all his posts look like ass I will just bypass them.

                      --
                      ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                      • (Score: 2) by Marand on Sunday June 05 2016, @06:11AM

                        by Marand (1081) on Sunday June 05 2016, @06:11AM (#355416) Journal

                        I can't figure out what aristarchus is trying to say, usually, so I have no idea what his opinions are on anything. It always seems to just be off-topic gibberish that is often indistinguishable from the robo-posts one sometimes finds in blog comments, accompanied by a spam link. I could replace any of his comments with spam and the result would likely be more coherent and relevant. lol.

                        And yeah, Arik is the one that posts all his comments in the monospace code font. Tried asking him nicely to stop and just got some condescending bullshit lecture about how his posts look perfectly fine and the problem is I'm too stupid to know how to set my fonts correctly. You know, ignoring the fact that I'd have to set the browser's "monospace" font to something that isn't monospace to fix his dumb shit, which would cause problems with everything else on the web that uses it.

                        For a while I just skipped his posts like you, but then I decided to make it easier by having them auto-collapsed.

                        • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Sunday June 05 2016, @11:10PM

                          by Hairyfeet (75) <bassbeast1968NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday June 05 2016, @11:10PM (#355629) Journal

                          He's an SJW, they hate white people and worship black penises. I really wouldn't be surprised to find out he spends his weekends as a sissy slave, dressed in a maid outfit offering his nasty booty to any bum who is the right shade of brown. Its scary how high up in tech some of the sissy slaves can get, you heard about the one who wrote all the SJW shit dialog and ruined Borderlands the Pre-Sequel, right? A vid got released showing him in a little pink dress while some big nasty looking black guy banged his wife...I don't even want to mention what happened afterwards, seriously gross. And THAT was the guy heading a major game development team? SJWs, huh?

                          As for monospace guy...what he he doing, posting from Lynx? I just instantly ignore anything he posts because it looks like shit, all I can figure is he is some FOSSie that refuses to use anything not GNU and hence why it looks like shit, as he is probably using some GNUSense with horribly outdated text only browser.

                          --
                          ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                          • (Score: 2) by Marand on Monday June 06 2016, @01:36AM

                            by Marand (1081) on Monday June 06 2016, @01:36AM (#355662) Journal

                            you heard about the one who wrote all the SJW shit dialog and ruined Borderlands the Pre-Sequel, right? A vid got released showing him in a little pink dress while some big nasty looking black guy banged his wife...I don't even want to mention what happened afterwards, seriously gross. And THAT was the guy heading a major game development team? SJWs, huh?

                            That was Anthony Burch. The funny (and sad) thing is that he was just some dumb shit "comedian" doing a series with his sister on some site, Destructiod I think, prior to Borderlands 2. Apparently someone thought he'd be a great fit for BL2 onward and he got put on writing duties. Which, to be fair to the guy, some of the writing was tolerable. Problem is it's the same old 90/10 problem: 90% of his writing was total garbage. He took a surreal, fucked up setting and turned everybody into reddit-esque, meme-spewing, LOL SO RANDOM XD garbage. And of course gave the character his sister voiced (Tiny Tina) way more relevance and dialogue than she deserved, to the point of even giving her own DLC. Nepotism is awesome, folks.

                            Luckily the gameplay was hands down better than BL1 in practically every way possible, because that's the only thing that made it tolerable. Though, like I said above, the writing did still have a few good parts here and there. I actually liked most of those backstory snippets you found of various playable characters via ECHO logs, for example. The problem was mostly all the side-characters and "SO RANDOM LOL MEME" type dialogue that felt like a poor attempt at imitating BL1's style and failing. Plus Tiny Tina was goddamn annoying to me, but apparently most people liked her so I'm in the minority there I guess. I did, however, like Handsome Jack in it, but that's almost entirely because his voice actor completely nailed it.

                            As for pre-sequel, I didn't even touch it. None of the playable characters looked fun to me and I heard the writing was even shittier than BL2, plus the oxygen mechanic seemed to be generally hated, so I just stayed away. The good news is I think they got rid of Burch after that, so maybe there's hope for a Borderlands 3, assuming Pre-Sequel didn't completely kill the franchise off.

                            Random side thought: know what I miss? SHODAN fom System Shock 1 and 2. We've had imitators of the antagonist narrative style over the years -- like Jack, GladOS, etc. -- but nobody has outdone SHODAN's writing and VA so far, IMO. The others tend to be amusing, often quotable, but SHODAN was genuinely, uniquely creepy and memorable. Not an antagonist narrative, but Jon St. John's voicework in Duke Nukem 3D deserves honourable mention, too. Same with the guy that voiced Garrett in the Thief series. They were both memorable and set the moods for their games in much the same way.

                            As for monospace guy...what he he doing, posting from Lynx? I just instantly ignore anything he posts because it looks like shit, all I can figure is he is some FOSSie that refuses to use anything not GNU and hence why it looks like shit, as he is probably using some GNUSense with horribly outdated text only browser.

                            I don't think so, actually. The impression I got from the discussion about it is that he believes (or pretends to) that monospace font is the One True Way to view text, so he set all his fonts to monospace and thus sees no difference in the code tags vs normal writing. And expects everyone else to either do the same or set all fonts to variable width. Any mention of it inevitably ends in him being an insulting dick about it, claiming you're just too stupid to change your fonts and use the internet "as intended". At this point, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it's all an attention-grabbing tactic and he only does it to be contrary, rather than out of an actual conviction that it's better.

                            It sure as fuck isn't anything FOSS-related, though, because it's just as obnoxious to me sitting here in Debian viewing the comments in Firefox, Chromium, or anything else. I even use elinks at times, but you don't see me forcing all my comments to be monospace. It's just not necessary most of the time, and frankly, I like being able to actually use some markup for emphasis.

                            At some point I just stopped giving a shit about this stuff. I've been using Linux just as long as I have Windows, and prior to that grew up with shit that booted to a CLI of some type (BASIC interpreter or CP/M mostly). I can live happily on the command line and I'm equally comfortable with a traditional window manager or a keyboard-heavy tiling WM. But in the end I just don't care what other people use. I'm a live-and-let-live kind of guy about tech stuff, so I don't give a fuck if someone else likes or dislikes Linux, BSD, Windows, OS X, etc. as long as they give me the same respect about my preferences. It works for you, cool; everyone has different needs and wants. Likewise, I don't care about editor wars; I use both emacs and vi, among others, and just generally have a "use what works for you, dude" outlook on it all. I do, however, like a good discussion about any of it, at least until it devolves into "you're wrong because you like the wrong thing" shit-slinging.

                            So, if he really just prefers monospace fonts for browsing, that's fine. The problem for me is the conscious decision to try forcing it onto everybody else by writing every comment in the "code" style, which wraps everything in <tt> tags, and then being condescending to anybody that questions it or considers it misuse of the tag.

                            Oh, there is one exception to the "I just don't care" -- BeOS. I was actually upset about its failure. It was so far ahead of everything else at the time, with a super-slick GUI that nobody caught up to for years and great multitasking at a time when everything else was a kludge at best. Their failure was as much due to shady tactics by the competition as anything else and that was a goddamn shame. It sort-of lives on as Haiku, so at least there's that.

                            • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Monday June 06 2016, @04:34AM

                              by Hairyfeet (75) <bassbeast1968NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Monday June 06 2016, @04:34AM (#355730) Journal

                              The sad part is the parts Burch DIDN'T write in BL 2? were really really good, nobody even gave a single shit about one of the main characters being gay because they didn't beat people about the face with it he was just like "oh he's my ex, that is why he's pissed" and nobody cared. With the PS? ZOMFG it was ALL SJW SHIT all the way down. One character within 30 second of you meeting her announces she is gay and THEN she makes you pick up these audio logs that are NOTHING but "Did you know I'm gay? I'm so very very gay you know. yep love the munching of the carpet I do" just on and on AND ON AND ON and of course he had to turn Mr Torque into a giant sissy (probably wish fulfillment, thinking that is what he should look like as that black guy banged his wife) that does nothing but act like a total cuckold.

                              BTW you are soooo lucky you missed that game as you will NOT believe what they did...get ready now, i shit you not...THEY REMOVED THE LOOT! I swear I had to play it a second time just because I could not believe that in a LOOT HOARDING GAME they would have NO loot but...yep, no loot in the game. Every.single.chest and enemy drop is NOTHING but crap guns, not once in 2 playthroughs did I find a single usable gun, not once. Like how they ruined Bioshock Infinite with forcing that damned skyhook mechanic they completely gutted Borderlands so they could...get this...stick ALL the loot into...vending machines. Yep no point in exploring, no point in killing bigger baddies for better drops, no the "game" was reload your save over and over next to a vending machine until the RNG put a decent gun in the thing...Needless to say I uninstalled that shit but quick, and am damned glad his cuckold behind got fired. I didn't know his sis was Tiny Tina though...that really explains a LOT of what I didn't like about BL 2. Oh and sadly there are no plans for a BL 3, looks like Burch killed it dead. damned shame as like Bioshock I & II Borderlands I & II always have a place on my HDD, and every Halloween I have to go to Dr Ned's Zombie island, Its just a perfect holiday treat.

                              As for monospace guy...why does that not surprise me? Reminds me of "he who shall not be named" who would spam every networking article with endless rants about using Hosts files, they get hung up on one little thing and the next thing ya know? They are just acting batshit. Well if he wants his posts to be unreadble I'll be happy not to read it, win/win in my book.

                              and totally agree about SHODAN, but it really scares me they'll try to "reboot" the series and we'll end up with another thief 4...eeek! But I think today the damned game devs think they are soooo fucking hip they can't do shit without pop culture references and winks to the audience which would just destroy any attempt at building a bad guy as pure badass as SHODAN, it would end up hipster fourth wall breaking shit...yuck.

                              --
                              ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                              • (Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday June 08 2016, @01:35AM

                                by Marand (1081) on Wednesday June 08 2016, @01:35AM (#356688) Journal

                                The sad part is the parts Burch DIDN'T write in BL 2? were really really good, nobody even gave a single shit about one of the main characters being gay because they didn't beat people about the face with it he was just like "oh he's my ex, that is why he's pissed" and nobody cared.

                                Heh. Funny thing is, I can't even think of which character you mean. I vaguely recall a few characters being bisexual or gay, but it generally didn't hit me over the head with it so I just went "oh, okay" and gave it no thought. Which I guess makes your point for you. I don't care if you want to make a character male, female, trans, gay, bi, or whatever, as long as it's not ham-fisted, tacked-on bullshit.

                                The problem, for me, is when it stops being a character trait and instead becomes the entire point of the character. Of course, it's not just characters that have this problem: a lot of people seem to define themselves solely by labels like that. That guy that has to tell you he's vegan or remind you how much of a hipster he is at every chance, or the Arch Linux user that mentions it in any conversation, etc. They stop being people and turn into parodies of people. Unfortunately, it also gets mistaken for good character design, and instead of getting a character with a personality, you get a character with a series of labels.

                                Especially if the creator has an agenda. For example, that Netflix series, Sense8. It follows eight different main characters, and they were mostly pretty good, but one of the characters is this male-to-female transsexual lesbian super-hacker mary sue that gets way too much focus early on, to the point it's comical. To its credit, this is only really a problem in the first few episodes, and ends up being a good show, but I almost didn't keep watching because of the agenda-pushing narrative. During those first few episodes, when it's introducing the viewer to the characters, it sets up character arcs for each of them, and the super-hacker character's initial storyline was about family problems and a mother that refuses to accept the character's gender-change, plus how the character's ostracised from the LBGT community, etc.

                                The content didn't bother me, and the storyline had potential, but the problem for me was that, of these 8 characters, many of them were in life-or-death situations or just had generally more compelling narratives, but no, the mary-sue author-insert got the bulk of the screen time because of a desire to turn the character into an agenda. You see, the show was (is; a second season is coming) a collaboration work between J. Michael Straczynski and the Wachowskis (of Matrix fame). One of said Wachowskis is trans, and that entire character's art just came across like a blunt "LIFE IS HARD FOR US" agenda narrative. Luckily it only lasted a few episodes, and settled into something more reasonable. There were still random bits of "my paaaaaain" type ham-fisted shit, but by the end of the series the character actually had some personality that wasn't just "I'm a lesbian transsexual! Look at me kiss my girlfriend!" like the start was.

                                Now, don't take this as a dislike for the show. I actually liked most of the main characters and their arcs were generally interesting. In fact, that was half the problem, because it seemed like the more interesting stories took a backseat to one of the creators' agendas for a while. Funny enough, they actually had a good example of having a gay character that has more personality than "I am gay" in the same show, and his storyline was one of the more interesting ones as a result.

                                BTW you are soooo lucky you missed that game as you will NOT believe what they did...get ready now, i shit you not...THEY REMOVED THE LOOT! I swear I had to play it a second time just because I could not believe that in a LOOT HOARDING GAME they would have NO loot but...yep, no loot in the game. Every.single.chest and enemy drop is NOTHING but crap guns, not once in 2 playthroughs did I find a single usable gun, not once. Like how they ruined Bioshock Infinite with forcing that damned skyhook mechanic they completely gutted Borderlands so they could...get this...stick ALL the loot into...vending machines. Yep no point in exploring, no point in killing bigger baddies for better drops, no the "game" was reload your save over and over next to a vending machine until the RNG put a decent gun in the thing

                                I sort of get the point of that, since those Seraph vendors in BL2 helped a lot with fixing some of the RNG problems of never finding good weapons. However, it was just a way to augment finding legendary loot, not a complete replacement. You still had boss-only drops and rares dropping legendary loot, so there was always a reason to reset and play through again. Especially with that DLC that added Overpower levels. I got that recently and fucking love it.

                                I don't really play BL1 anymore, though. I ended up liking the character balance in 2 a lot more and it just makes it hard to go back. Probably doesn't help that I played it so damn much in the first place and burned out a little on it. lol.

                                and totally agree about SHODAN, but it really scares me they'll try to "reboot" the series and we'll end up with another thief 4...eeek! But I think today the damned game devs think they are soooo fucking hip they can't do shit without pop culture references and winks to the audience which would just destroy any attempt at building a bad guy as pure badass as SHODAN, it would end up hipster fourth wall breaking shit...yuck.

                                I wonder how likely a System Shock sequel even is at this point. Bioshock came about because SS wasn't commercially successful despite being adored, so that ship's probably sailed. Plus there tends to be copyright issues where the publisher has copyright on the IP so the devs can't do anything with it. That sort of thing usually does a good job of blocking real sequels.

                                Honestly, I wouldn't mind a System Shock 3, though, even now. The problem is that it would likely a reboot like you said. Everything has to be a fucking reboot now, can't just build on what's already there, no. Movies, games, doesn't matter, every few years you just reboot it and use the name again for something completely fucking different. Fuck.

                                I give Deus Ex: Human Revolution a pass, though. It's sort of a soft reboot, because it got made as a prequel and now they just seem to be following the prequel without explicitly wiping out the original game. I can only imagine the backlash if anybody involved had been stupid enough to try writing out one of the best, most-loved PC games ever like it never happened. That would be like Nintendo deciding to completely write off every Zelda, Metroid, or Mario game in favour of a new, "cool" version.

                                Oh shit, speaking of, Capcom's actually trying that with Mega Man, giving the series a new backstory and character designs for an upcoming animated series (and likely games related to it). Fans have been in an uproar over it because it's hilariously bad [capcom-unity.com]. I don't think even the EXE games got as much backlash...

                                • (Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Thursday June 09 2016, @02:00AM

                                  by Hairyfeet (75) <bassbeast1968NO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday June 09 2016, @02:00AM (#357121) Journal

                                  It was Hammerlock. There is one side quest where you have to get this box from a super large...skrags? Whatever those large bat wing looking things were, and Hammerlock asks you to get the pages of his book back while you are getting the box. He simply has a throw away line like "Yeah my ex stole it, it was a bad breakup" or something like that, nobody cared because it wasn't bitchslapping you with it like in PS. The PS feels like a game written by Reddit, its ALL SJW "did you know I'm a" (insert gay/trans/whatever) just pounding you with it...and you are right its their ONLY character trait which makes them parodies.

                                  And I never had a problem with any RNG in BL2, because there was always the bosses you could farm for loot. I never understood everyone getting hung up on legendary because I had several legendary weapons (I ended up giving away a ton and still have lockers full of them) because you would often find a blue or purple weapon that was frankly better in every way. You slap the Morningstar sniper rifle in the hands of...aww crap, the guy with Bloodwing...and ooohhh mama, by the fifth round you could be popping for a million damage!

                                  But I don't think they did it to fix RNG, I think they did it because of "gravity gun syndrome" where the devs fell in love with a mechanic and broke the game to push it like HL 2 did with the gravity gun or Infinite did with the skyhook, in the case of PS? Its the fucking grinder. If you didn't hear they had a grinder in the game, feed it 3 weapons and you would get one random of the next higher tier, 3 whites equal a green, three green a purple, etc. Problem was you ONLY ever found shit white guns in game, so either you spent all your time hoping a vending machine would pop up a legendary or you spent ALL THE DAMNED TIME being a glorified pack mule just dragging endless mounds of shit guns back and forth to the grinder. Between that and the SJW shit it completely ruined the game, so badly that I didn't even bother playing the DLC, I just tossed it.

                                  As for BL1? I still play it for the DLC, I love General Knox "Oh look our glorious leader sent me a dragon made out of macaroni" and Zombie Island, just a blast to play, though not as polished as BL2. And I'd love a new SS, even if they went the Deus Ex route, but you just know they'd go reboot, and it'd be full of hipster fourth wall breaking and pop culture crap. I swear its like devs today just can't see how badly pop culture crap dates movies and so just keep sticking memes and Reddit crap into their games. Its not surprising though, did you see how EA fought against Battlefield I because they thoughts kids would be too dumb to know there was a WWI and would be expecting the same kinda shit they got in MW...sigh.

                                  And it doesn't surprise me about Capcom, only Konami is worse at screwing up a franchise than Capcom, just look at how they keep trying to turn Resident Evil into a fricking action game, or the way they keep slowing down and bloating Street Fighter with one button specials and crap...yuck.

                                  --
                                  ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
                              • (Score: 2) by Marand on Thursday June 09 2016, @12:02AM

                                by Marand (1081) on Thursday June 09 2016, @12:02AM (#357077) Journal

                                Huh, apparently Night Dive Studios, the company that has been re-releasing the original System Shock and System Shock 2 in places like GOG and Steam -- and ported SS2 to Linux with a wine wrapper -- is actually doing a remaster version of the first System Shock. They recently put up a video of pre-alpha gameplay footage [youtube.com].

                                The sound clip at end sounds like they're still using the Terri Brosius-voiced SHODAN audio, which is promising. I have no issue with a remaster of the games (especially the first) as long as it doesn't manage to completely mangle the atmosphere, and the voicework was a big part of it.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Bot on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:48PM

    by Bot (3902) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:48PM (#353510) Journal

    Instead of a CoC, what about censoring every aspect which is not technical from the technical ML and keep one off topic board for whatever else?
    Trolls will soon tire of seeing their post edited/yanked and their persons freely ridiculed, because one Warning to those entering the ML should be like: "if you find a message offensive, talk to the writer and/or leave, we take no responsibility if it offends you".

    Because as I see it, the timeline is:
    - Install trolls into targeted forum (a good example is mikeeusa in devuan list, why should a pro troll bother with small lists?)
    - Troll starts trolling
    - CoC invoked
    - CoC enacted
    - CoC used by self appointed censors to either censor targets with accusations, and having the ML admins take on the role of judges of alleged facts happening on the other part of the globe, or to complain that CoC is not enforced and proceed throwing mud at the project leadership.
    - Atmosphere becomes toxic
    - Targeted people and 3rd parties leave
    - My work here is done

    --
    Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:49PM

      by Bot (3902) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @03:49PM (#353512) Journal

      Uh, and there is always bbqlinux, which incidentally tends to do without systemd.

      --
      Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:14AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:14AM (#353768)

      >Atmosphere becomes toxic
      That's because Jaromil smokes so much dope.

      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday June 04 2016, @01:38AM

        by Bot (3902) on Saturday June 04 2016, @01:38AM (#354962) Journal

        I see the psychedelic coding more in the pulseaudio/dbus/systemd camp, but I am in no position to check.

        --
        Account abandoned.
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:01PM

    by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:01PM (#353517)

    The purpose of Devuan is to create a version of Debian that worked without Systemd. There are significant technical reasons to oppose systemd [without-systemd.org]. The idea that it's a "devil-may-care total fork of Debian" is in fact wrong, because Devuan makes use of any Debian packages unmodified that it can.

    As for this specific effort, by all appearances someone was way out of line, and seeing as how they didn't have a set of rules to kick someone who is violating Wheaton's Law, they decided to make some. As somebody who's been in the position of having to decide whether to kick people out of meatspace groups, having specific rules makes it easier to differentiate between somebody who's really out of line and somebody who you just don't like, both for yourself and for any outside observers. It's basically a way of formalizing what is usually done informally in all sorts of groups, namely shunning those who are jerks.

    --
    Alcohol makes the world go round ... and round and round.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:18PM

      by Nerdfest (80) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:18PM (#353523)

      Agreed; the problem is not really in having a "Code of Conduct", but how almost all are worded. They can be, are have been used to basically block unpopular ideas or opinions as they don't align with the current opinions of the people administering the policy. I like the idea above of just banning people for any off-topic stuff. Take the SJW crap and other drama elsewhere. In general, Wheaton's law would be as good a solution (or better) than most of the CoCs I've seen.

    • (Score: 2) by jdavidb on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:44PM

      by jdavidb (5690) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:44PM (#353648) Homepage Journal
      I honestly had no idea there was a Wheaton's Law, although I've heard him express it before. I actually posted to Wheaton on Slashdot not too long ago inviting him here. It would be nice if others would invite him.
      --
      ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:05PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:05PM (#353519)

    Remember folks, there are some of us who value free speech--even if we find that speech offensive.

    (Personally I find MikeUSA's (aka "greg____" etc) to be more idiotic than offensive. Misinformed, repetitive, and not even good trolling. Just some idiot brute who's able to ruffle people's feathers with third-grade reasoning. That's free speech, even if it's detestable and dunderheadedly sophomoric.)

    Hell, there are people on THIS site whose views I disagree with strongly (and in contrast to MikeUSA these seem to be intelligent and reasonable people). The fact that they hold their views and voice them isn't offensive to me, however. That's still free speech.

    The goal should be for us to be able to tolerate different opinions, even if they're the voice of the idiotic/uninformed/unreasonable/moronic. My problem with the "We need a CoC" kneejerk reaction is that it just paves the way for totalitarian thinking.

    If you're running a forum or a chatroom, why not let users block/mute one another?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:25PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:25PM (#353526)

      It's not the views that offend me, but the self-aggrandizing, Master of All stupidity. You can lay their heads on pikes with little loss to the human race

      Few things more valuable than someone who changes (or at least question heavily) your point of view with a well-constructed argument. The ideologues are completely useless though.

      • (Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:02PM

        by Arik (4543) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:02PM (#353657) Journal
        "Few things more valuable than someone who changes (or at least question heavily) your point of view with a well-constructed argument. The ideologues are completely useless though."

        And the trouble with attempting to solve this problem with rules is that long experience has taught us that any rule that gets rid of the latter, can and will also be twisted into use on the former.
        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:32PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:32PM (#353670)

        It's not the views that offend me, but the self-aggrandizing, Master of All stupidity. You can lay their heads on pikes with little loss to the human race

        You are now aware that Socrates was a masterful troll who was a self-aggrandizing Master of All Ridiculous arguments. Your move, fascist.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:10PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:10PM (#353686)

          Socrates left at least an implied substantial body of work, and heavily influenced two of the architects of western thought.

          Compare that to your rebuttal, and you will completely understand the point.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:02PM

      I bow before your wisdom.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:36PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:36PM (#353587)

        I bow before your wisdom.

        You should, since my line of thinking was partially inspired by your post, above ;)

        • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:11PM

          by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:11PM (#353663) Journal

          I bow before your wisdom.

          You should, since my line of thinking was partially inspired by your post, above ;)

          OK, Mighty Buzz, that's enough of the sock-puppetry!

          --
          #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:02PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:02PM (#353638)

      That's good in theory, but how do you do it in practice? In particular, how do you handle the keeping the signal to noise ratio high while allowing anybody to say anything? Keep in mind this is on IRC, so nothing fancy like the moderation points system such as on soylentnews.

      Imagine this person was sending generic insults to everybody in the room at one a second, including changing nicks to avoid easy /ignore commands. Would you ban them? If so, where do you draw the line? If not, what do you do to avoid the noise becoming so high as to drown out the signal?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:53PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @08:53PM (#353654)

        Imagine this person was sending generic insults to everybody in the room at one a second, including changing nicks to avoid easy /ignore commands. Would you ban them? If so, where do you draw the line? If not, what do you do to avoid the noise becoming so high as to drown out the signal?

        Good points.

        There's no easy solution to the problem. Even with an ironclad CoC in place, those issues still remain.

        I think censorship (to use a lazy term) should be accomplished on an individual basis (if I don't want to browse pictures of g0at pr0n at work, I ought to be able to mute or avoid those photographs until a more, uh, suitable time). If some bad actor wants to spam my online life with those pictures, I should be able to filter them out.

        This is different than some corporate/governmental entity doing it for me.

        It becomes, then, a technical problem for which I'm sure ancient tools like chatrooms and IRC don't work too well. Are there better tools out there? Can I flip a switch on somewhere that can mute a bad actor or bad content? Probably not but surely that's a better goal (placing the filtering decisions in the hands of individuals) than a top-down, authoritarian approach?

        One example: we use such a filtration system when we set the threshold here. I browse at -1 all the time because I don't mind seeing crap/bullshit posts. Others may set the threshold at +2.

        Another example: AOL instant messenger lets me accept incoming connections ONLY from people on my buddy list. If I want to get approached by hax0r bots, I can flip the switch.

    • (Score: 1) by DeVilla on Thursday June 02 2016, @05:25AM

      by DeVilla (5354) on Thursday June 02 2016, @05:25AM (#353855)

      I kind of agree with what you are saying. But MikeUSA's has made a famously special case of himself. There comes a point when the crowd will say "Shut up or go away!" or "We're moving the party and you are not invited."

      I haven't read up on this specific case and I haven't clashed with him directly myself, but I'm amazed at how many times I've come across stories of his behavior. He's contributed to projects I appreciate, but I can defend his behavior when he's off the rails.

      Most of all, I just don't like the idea of a code of conduct for reasons I won't detail here. Perhaps the answer here is to show a jerk the door. No half-thought rules. No legacy of bureaucracy. Just simple, sincere mob justice carried out upon someone who goes to great lengths to earn it.

      And I know mob justice is bad. The community should be upset to have to do such a thing. And they should be more upset at the one who makes it necessary. But inventing a Code of Conduct to excuse it isn't the answer. It just creates a mechanism to be abused free of guilt.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @09:53PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @09:53PM (#354239)

        May I ask which projects?

        • (Score: 1) by DeVilla on Friday June 03 2016, @05:08AM

          by DeVilla (5354) on Friday June 03 2016, @05:08AM (#354355)

          (First of all, I hope you saw my follow up amending a typo.)

          Mainly crossfire and related things. I saw his name in things but I wasn't actively following development back then.

          I think I've stumbled over him when digging around for sequencing and recording software on Linux some years ago. I remember the name but I missed the drama. I tried google for that, but I can't find anything about him now except his famous reputation. Seems he worked hard for that.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2016, @04:53PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 04 2016, @04:53PM (#355148)

            Have you tried these:
            (Crossfire fork: note the old python release that works with the scripts is on the dev page aswell, that needs to be compiled with)
            http://lgdb.org/game/crossfire-extended-release [lgdb.org]

            (Fork of 3d game, 100+ weapons, maps, medieval and modern and futuristic)
            http://lgdb.org/game/chaosesque-anthology [lgdb.org]

            • (Score: 1) by DeVilla on Wednesday June 08 2016, @03:55AM

              by DeVilla (5354) on Wednesday June 08 2016, @03:55AM (#356708)

              I've looked at a number of Crossfire derivatives. I'm not sure if I've seen that one before. Unfortunately they each seem to pick up some nice features that are missing from crossfire, but lack the community to build them up. Given the ancient python requirement, I'm guess crossfire extended has the same problem. It would be hard to compete with the resources at metalforge or realtime. Oddly enough, I'm having trouble seeing the code in SF. Maybe I'll try a clone tomorrow.

              Do you know if it's compatible with CF maps or did they have to make up all new ones? Did they have to make their own clients or did they keep the same protocol? And does it still do magic & religions similarly? (Sorry if I'm asking too much.) I don't have much time to play CF much now, but I'd love to know if there is a better version to pick up. It could be fun to setup a private server for friends again some time.

              Chaosesque doesn't seem to intrigue me so much, but I may not be giving it a fair chance. It looks too FSP-ish, but I'm sure it could be cool if they really gave attention to the RPG aspects. It's code repo looks active.

      • (Score: 1) by DeVilla on Friday June 03 2016, @04:53AM

        by DeVilla (5354) on Friday June 03 2016, @04:53AM (#354351)

        YIKES! I'd like to amend one statement.

        I haven't read up on this specific case and I haven't clashed with him directly myself, but I'm amazed at how many times I've come across stories of his behavior. He's contributed to projects I appreciate, but I can't defend his behavior when he's off the rails.

        Can't!

        Can not!

        Where's the blink tag when you need it. Boy I need to stop posting after bed time.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:19PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @04:19PM (#353524)

    Code of conduct: Good, as long as it's short and not a laundry list of everyone's pet peeves

    "Zero tolerance": Bad

    If someone posts offensive stuff, call him out and delete his posts if necessary, but don't be quick to throw him off the site unless it's an obvious spammer or troll.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:11PM

    by LoRdTAW (3755) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @05:11PM (#353541) Journal

    Code of Conduct:
    1) Don't be an asshole.
    2) You arent as cool as you think you are.
    3) You're a nobody.
    4) Have fun.

  • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by shortscreen on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:05PM

    by shortscreen (2252) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @06:05PM (#353566) Journal

    RT's clone of The Daily Show, Redacted Tonight, outed identitiy politics as a Neoliberal plot to distract from economic inequality. https://www.rt.com/shows/redacted-tonight-summary/344667-hillary-humans-intelligent-species/ [rt.com]

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 03 2016, @02:36AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 03 2016, @02:36AM (#354323)

      I quit looking at rt.com ever since the executives flipped the switch and took more control of the editorial ( and, in my opinion, became too much of ap utin mouthpiece). Maybe I'll have another look.. see if they realized they can't be so obvious about it and have a bit of journalistic integrity remaining....

  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:57PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @07:57PM (#353634)

    Relevant!

    Huh, coincidence?

    European Commission and IT Companies announce Code of Conduct on illegal online hate speech

    europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1937_en.htm

    The Commission together with Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Microsoft (“the IT companies”) today unveil a code of conduct that includes a series of commitments to combat the spread of illegal hate speech online in Europe.

    The IT Companies support the European Commission and EU Member States in the effort to respond to the challenge of ensuring that online platforms do not offer opportunities for illegal online hate speech to spread virally. They share, together with other platforms and social media companies, a collective responsibility and pride in promoting and facilitating freedom of expression throughout the online world. However, the Commission and the IT Companies recognise that the spread of illegal hate speech online not only negatively affects the groups or individuals that it targets, it also negatively impacts those who speak out for freedom, tolerance and non-discrimination in our open societies and has a chilling effect on the democratic discourse on online platforms.

    In order to prevent the spread of illegal hate speech, it is essential to ensure that relevant national laws transposing the Council Framework Decision on combating racism and xenophobia are fully enforced by Member States in the online as well as the in the offline environment. While the effective application of provisions criminalising hate speech is dependent on a robust system of enforcement of criminal law sanctions against the individual perpetrators of hate speech, this work must be complemented with actions geared at ensuring that illegal hate speech online is expeditiously reviewed by online intermediaries and social media platforms, upon receipt of a valid notification, in an appropriate time-frame. To be considered valid in this respect, a notification should not be insufficiently precise or inadequately substantiated....

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:03PM

      by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @09:03PM (#353658) Journal

      European Commission and IT Companies announce Code of Conduct on illegal online hate speech

      Ah, so they define which type of illegal online hate speech is OK, and which is not? ;-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by an Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:39PM

    by an Anonymous Coward (2620) on Wednesday June 01 2016, @10:39PM (#353698)

    Enacting a "social justice" based code of conduct to rid yourself of a few trolls is like setting your house on fire in order to rid it of cockroaches. I suspect folks will continue to learn the hard way what a "good cop, bad cop" racket the SJWs and trolls are running, though.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:16AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:16AM (#353770)

      People get the government they deserve.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:15PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 02 2016, @02:15PM (#354059)

    SystemD must prevail! All competitors to SystemD must best be stopped at all costs.

    An System that:
    Obscures the inner workings and output
    That has so many dependencies the guarantees it will never be easily removed from the eco system
    A System that unwanted parts cannot be easily turn off or removed
    Most importantly take away control from users

    Is to our advantage!

    SystemD must prevail. All competitors to SystemD must be stopped by any means,
    including throwing distasteful trolls at them, so the parts of the community themselves attack it.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 07 2016, @11:17PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 07 2016, @11:17PM (#356651)

    What is the rundown?