from the my-emotional-support-is-a-lion dept.
The young, perfectly healthy looking guy ahead of me in Panera Bread walked his fifty lb. dog to the front of the line - I can't tell you the breed since I don't know dogs - and was immediately told that the dog had to go. "Um, I have an anxiety disorder", he replied. The cashier turned around to consult with the manager, but people were still waiting to order, and soon it was conceded that the customer and his service dog/best friend could stay for lunch. And they did.
The Chicago Tribune reports that similar incidents are cropping up on airlines. Passengers dread having their pets locked up in a kennel in the cargo section, and airlines charge hefty fees for the service, so some of them are taking advantage of a legal loophole allowing service dogs of disabled people to ride in the passenger cabin free of charge; but in these cases the disability is "emotional distress" rather than, say, blindness. Many of these passengers pay a licensed therapist for the certificate of need required by airline gate attendants, and for an expensive vest for their "service animals".
From the Tribune story:
"It's definitely gotten carried away to the point where people are taking advantage of the system," [Atlanta flight attendant] Williams said. "It's hard when someone is following protocol and they're not allowed to take the animal out of the cage, but others use the loophole to have an animal sit on their lap."
The story mentions that some fellow passengers and advocates for the (real) disabled are annoyed with the game-playing and lax enforcement. However, others perhaps side with the late Harry Nilsson, who famously sang "I'd take my puppy everywhere, la-la-la I wouldn't care. We'll stay away from crowds, signs that said 'No friends allowed'".
Related Stories
US ends era of emotional support animals on planes
US airlines will no longer be required to transport emotional support animals after passengers insisted on bringing on board their horses, pigs, peacocks and turkeys for psychological reasons.
Wednesday's rule change by the US Department of Transportation now says only dogs qualify as service animals.
The agency said unusual animals on flights had "eroded the public trust in legitimate service animals".
Airlines say the old policy had been abused and was dangerous.
The new rule defines service dogs as "individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability", and says other animals should be treated by airlines as pets that can be placed in the cargo hold for a fee.
Previously: The Confusion About Pets (archive)
"Emotional Support Animals" Riding With Owners Aboard Commercial Airlines Flights
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:42AM
So, can I bring Ethanol_fueled along as my support animal on my next transcontinental flight? Do I have to pay for the shots?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:44AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:43AM
A while back I had to do some extensive cross country travel, and after my previous dealings with the TSA, decided flight wasn't an option.
So I wound up going by train. Yeah, it took longer, required numerous bus transfers, but I was fairly resolute that I didn't want to play by the rules for air travel anymore.
Wouldn't it be easier for these nervous passengers just to pick a different means of transportation more accommodating to their "disability"?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:58AM
No, it is easier to force everyone else to bend to your will. Thankfully, other than the specific laws dealing with housing and air travel, ESAs are not given special status. For example, it is perfectly legal under the ADA to kick someone out of your restaurant for their ESA. True service animals are defined as being either dogs or horses that are specially trained to assist the person do whatever vital activity they cannot on their own. So, your emotional support animal doesn't count, but the PTSD dog trained to react to your anxiousness or the autism dog trained to prevent wondering is.
Do note that state laws can different, (for example, my state also recognizes helper monkeys) but almost all of them require the animal have specific training to respond and assist a recognized disability. This requirement almost always excludes ESAs.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday November 17 2016, @05:20AM
the autism dog trained to prevent wondering is.
Tell me more about this "autism dog". Sounds like a threat to philosophy, if you ask me, as a philosopher.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @05:36AM
Many soylent posters have such dogs, supporting their confidence and helping them be incurious.
(Score: 2, Funny) by aristarchus on Thursday November 17 2016, @05:53AM
This explains so much! Thank you, AC! I will report this immediately to the Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries, and other professional thinking persons. (For those Soylentils with the aforementioned dogs, this is a very subtle reference to Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which I recommend you read, even though the movie version was not exactly Vogon poetry, although it did include Vogon poetry. )
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:26PM
but the PTSD dog trained to react to your anxiousness or the autism dog trained to prevent wondering is.
Why on earth would you want to prevent autistic people from wondering about things? What's wrong with that?
Next thing you know, we're all going to be required to have implants to prevent us from thinking improper thoughts.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @07:57PM
That's an error on my part. I meant to use the word "wandering." Kids with autism can get distracted by loud noises and wander around and ignore their caregivers, they also have the tendency to "bolt" in stressful situations, usually around traffic. You can see some of the training dogs get here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nxgtc5vYTo&list=PLipwG5kEXgI2xWjwLtUQJ6uVJ8rccQpY2 [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Friday November 18 2016, @05:36AM
That's an error on my part.
Yeah, we all knew that. We were just ragging on the typo. Perhaps if you get a typo-preventative support animal? These are usually called "editors" and are notoriously hard to train.
But it is cool that actual support animals can help autistics. Man's best friend, and all that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @05:52AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/11/service-dogs-for-sexual-assault-survivors/382560/ [theatlantic.com]
Why do airlines hate rape victims?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @05:58AM
Fleas, allergies, barks...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by shortscreen on Thursday November 17 2016, @09:26AM
Airlines hate everyone.
(Score: 1) by KnightGhost on Thursday November 17 2016, @11:14PM
I'm allergic to dogs. Why do airlines hate me?
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @06:57AM
Entitled, brats that take advantage of the system should ride in the cargo area if they really want to hang with their friends.
The internet is a great place however it can be used to create fake outrage. One restaurant I know of lost many of its customers after some dude pulled the 'its my service dog' act on them. Internet, papers, yelp, etc etc etc, the works. Turns out the dude does not have any papers, was not a disabled vet (which he claimed he was), and has pulled this stunt on many other restaurants in the area. All to get free food. He ruined that business and several others because they said 'papers showing you need it or get out'. He was eventually caught and fined for trying to steal food. However, the damage was done. People lost their jobs. The business was slashed to a fraction of what it was before. All because this asshole decided he wanted a free lunch and make a stink about it.
Businesses are seeing all sorts of lashback from the internet from people wanting and having a need to get outraged on the behalf of others. They brigade these poor min wage souls who never saw it coming. They do their damage and leave destruction in their wake never following up to see if it was true or not. Then many times it was just a small time con who wanted to get one over on 'the system'. So they let it go. They do not fight it anymore. It is not worth being 'that restaurant'. It is dead easy to put fake info into the internet. There are 5 star reviews on Guantanamo bay. Obviously all jokes but it shows how easy it would be to abuse the system.
This makes it extremely tough to run a business and for people with legitimate needs to be taken seriously.
That restaurant where you ate and the dog showed up would have lost me right then and there. I would not have waited for them to make a decision. I have actually anxiety about dogs. It is not rational I know that, it is something I deal with a lot. But I would have just left and not said a word. It makes me feel anxious just thinking about it. I would go back but just so long as the dog was not there. I would have noped out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @08:54AM
To be fair, while it does not meet the criteria for a service animal they do indeed possess a disability: mental retardation.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday November 17 2016, @02:54PM
One restaurant I know of lost many of its customers after some dude pulled the 'its my service dog' act on them. Internet, papers, yelp, etc etc etc, the works. Turns out the dude does not have any papers, was not a disabled vet (which he claimed he was), and has pulled this stunt on many other restaurants in the area. All to get free food. He ruined that business and several others because they said 'papers showing you need it or get out'. He was eventually caught and fined for trying to steal food. However, the damage was done. People lost their jobs. The business was slashed to a fraction of what it was before. All because this asshole decided he wanted a free lunch and make a stink about it.
Speaking of sensitive idiots...unless the dog was running rampant through the restaurant, it seems pretty shallow if they lost most of their business due to a single incident.
That restaurant where you ate and the dog showed up would have lost me right then and there. I would not have waited for them to make a decision. I have actually anxiety about dogs. It is not rational I know that
Case in point :/
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0, Troll) by Francis on Thursday November 17 2016, @03:10PM
Not really, some of us are very allergic to some types of animals. I used to break out in a rash if I came into contact with dogs, which was better than when I was around rabbits and my face would swell up and I'd have a hard time breathing because my throat was swelling shut.
Also, that ignores the many people who can't be bothered to properly train their animals and insist that their dog doesn't bite. Which is always true up until the first time they do it.
Bottom line is that some of us prefer not to have to eat in the same restaurant as dogs do, service animals are a bit different in that they're always properly trained and the person with the animal usually needs to have the animal with them rather than at home or outside.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday November 17 2016, @03:34PM
Okay, now *those* are actual reasons. GP basically said "I have a dog phobia."
I'm allergic to cats, but only the really sheddy ones so far. But there's not really such a thing as support cats I guess :)
I still think the "we lost most of our customers due to a single incident" thing is petty on the part of the customers. Fuck second chances, eh? Never coming back!
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 18 2016, @04:19AM
Okay, now *those* are actual reasons. GP basically said "I have a dog phobia."
And does Francis' comment amount to anything more? He just doubles down with the rabbit phobia. But I did once meet a Wizard whom some call "Tim", and he did warn of rabbits with nasty, biting teeth. Just look at the bones! He'll do you! So, to recap. Cat allergy, real thing. Dog allergy, not so much. Rabbit allergy? Unheard of! Why do you think they torture rabbits with make-up to test it for human use? Because rabbits are hypo-allergenic! Once again, Francis has things he does not know, and not knowing them, thinks he knows other things that are not only unknown, but wrong, false, untrue, and a slander upon on lepusidae everywhere. Be prepared for the further doubling down of the Francis. It is what he does.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:13PM
All 'allergies' are psychosomatic. It's a bullshit nervous reaction caused by irrational fear. Just stay home and eat your can of beans in front of the TV, if you're not 'allergic' to electricity...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:29PM
I guess you've never heard of the immune system.
Also, keep in mind that just because something is psychosomatic, it doesn't mean there isn't a real effect. Seasickness is entirely psychosomatic as with the body's rejection response to food it perceives as poison.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @05:45PM
The immune system is also psychologically controlled. It's all in your head. Calm down and live longer
(Score: 1) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Thursday November 17 2016, @06:27PM
If that is true, then how was I able to detect the presence of a cat within about 30 minutes of entering an new space without seeing, hearing, smelling or touching it?
Holding an opinion with conviction does not make it true.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @07:23PM
If that is true, then how was I able to detect the presence of a cat within about 30 minutes of entering an new space without seeing, hearing, smelling or touching it?
You don't. It's subconscious. You actually are 'smelling' it. The dander is in the air, and your psyche reacts. Otherwise you would be 'allergic' to cats that are half way around the world. Proximity wouldn't make a difference. Allergies are a direct function of tensed up hysteria, a quest for sympathy.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday November 18 2016, @03:50AM
-1, Flunked first-year biochemistry
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Friday November 18 2016, @12:42AM
service animals are a bit different in that they're always properly trained
That's the key point right there.
You internet certificates and dog vests mean nothing. Literally $15 bucks gets you both.
As a shop owner, you can ask what specific things the animal has been trained for. (You can't ask the animals owner what medical condition requires the animal be present - that's against the law).
Proprietors can ask two questions:
1) Is the animal required because of a disability?
2) What work or task has the animal been trained to perform?
If they can not list one or more of a set of training that animal has received you can kick them out. In Florida the situation got so bad they passed a law criminalizing fake service animals with a 60 day jail term upon conviction.
There is also a list of fake certificate issuers that I have seen posted in some places,
http://www.servicedogcentral.org/content/node/509 [servicedogcentral.org]
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by Francis on Saturday November 19 2016, @05:01PM
One of the side effects of them being trained is that they don't jump around spreading their allergens all over the place the way a lot of those ill-mannered pets do. I'm still allergic to service dogs, but because they don't jump around all over the place, I'm exposed to somewhat less of it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 18 2016, @12:51AM
If you had put the rest of my quote you would have noticed I would have made no fuss about it and just left and come back at another time.
Also most cities/counties/states consider dogs as a health hazard and you end up with fines.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday November 18 2016, @03:47AM
It's not the dog that's destructive; it's all the spurious bad reviews they'll get from "animal lovers" once word gets out.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by butthurt on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:33PM
[...] get free food.[...] fined for trying to steal food. [...] he wanted a free lunch [...]
How does bringing a dog into a restaurant result in getting a meal without paying? The man somehow ordered and ate before the wait-staff noticed the dog?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @06:51PM
He probably turns it into a "Gimme the meal free or I make a fuss about your questions about my dog" situation. People who pull this kind of thing are just like a guy locally in a wheelchair. He went door to door from business to business, marked down every minor ADA non-compliance he could find, then had his lawyer send out blanket "gimme me money to settle or we'll sue" letters. The guy with the fake service animal just had much lower standards.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Hawkwind on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:51PM
Wait for AC to provide a citation of this incident. Although AC is probably just trolling/having a bit of fun
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 18 2016, @12:40AM
http://restaurantsforsale.com/weblistings/ivens-on-the-bay-brainerd-lakes/ [restaurantsforsale.com]
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Thursday November 17 2016, @07:07AM
It's all about meeeeeee!!!
There are all sorts of website that will generate official-looking certificates for "service animals". In actual fact, these mean nothing at all. On top of that, the ADA apparently does not actually require any sort of proof that an animal is a genuine service animal, and disabled people are apparently offended at the very idea that they might have to "prove" their disability. WTF?
On the other hand: as long as an animal is well-behaved, I don't really see a problem. Here, in Switzerland, it's not unusual for people to take ordinary pets with them into restaurants and shops. The thing is: these are well-behaved animals. A dog in a restaurant disappears under the table, and people don't even notice it's there. A dog in a shop stays quietly by its owners side.
When I visit the US, I see lots of ill-behaved dogs. I remember one woman who set her precious on a chair at the restaurant table. Her precious yapped and wiggled and made a general nuisance of itself. Idiots like that give all dog owners a bad reputation.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @10:39AM
> disabled people are apparently offended at the very idea that they might have to "prove" their disability. WTF?
TF: The value of catching cheaters is not worth the harm done to the legitimately disabled in being required to prove their legitimacy to every uneducated tom, dick and harry who will feel empowered to arbitrarily deny them entry. There is no legal requirement to tolerate a service animal that misbehaves. Therefore the burden of accommodating a service animal is miniscule, even a "fake" service animal.
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Thursday November 17 2016, @02:50PM
I have to disagree. There is no reason to tolerate service animal fraud [thedailybeast.com]. The thing is: a genuine service animal is highly trained, and will not misbehave. Fake service animals [nbcbayarea.com], on the other hand, are owned by self-entitled twits, and are (pretty much by definition) *not* trained.
Take a misbehaving animal, and a self-entitled twit, and try to kick them out of your business. You're likely to get a huge scene, and when the story hits the interwebs, lots of crappy publicity.
A brief search, and here is a prime example of a self-entitled special snowflake [wordpress.com]. She picked up a stray puppy, "trained" him herself, and now calls him a "service dog". In the blog entry, she's discussing some basic behavior problems that no genuine service dog would exhibit; worse, her comments show that she has no clue how to actually guide a dog's behavior. Hint: it isn't through occasional "refresher courses" when your dog's behavior becomes intolerable.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:02PM
While I agree with your disgust of people who pretend to have a disability in order to get special treatment, the ADA (if you're in the US) does not allow businesses to ask for documentation. Businesses can, at least, ask people to remove their animal if it is out of control.
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm [ada.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:43PM
> I have to disagree. There is no reason to tolerate service animal fraud.
That approach inevitably means that some deserving people will be denied. What you are saying is that it is more important to you to punish frauds than to help people who genuinely need help. No amount of sophistry will change that.
> Take a misbehaving animal, and a self-entitled twit, and try to kick them out of your business. You're likely to get a huge scene, and when the story hits the interwebs, lots of crappy publicity.
Ok, if that's true then there must be a million examples of that. Name three. That "special snowflake" link you provided isn't even close. Not one word about making a scene in public. If that's the best example you've got, you've disproven your own thesis.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Friday November 18 2016, @04:04AM
In fact, a good way to distinguish might be to innocently inquire if they've had the "service dog" since it was a puppy....
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Entropy on Thursday November 17 2016, @07:06PM
Are you talking about service animals in the US, or children? I can't tell.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @09:47AM
It could get interesting if you get a certificate that you really need your pet viper to be with you ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @03:00PM
And no, not that a few people cheat an important system. That happens regardless, get over it.
What is disgusting is the attitude in these posts. "if they get nervous, they should stay home" "why do they need a dog, they look fine to me, screw em" "its all about their convenience" "they should ride in cargo with their dog".
THIS is what is wrong with the world today, not that a few people skirt around the rules. Before you blame the others for having a 'me me me' attitude, look in the damned mirror.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:21PM
What is disgusting is the attitude in these posts
It disgusts me that you make-up quotes and misrepresent the community's setiment.
I find it revolting that people would fake being disabled because they want to abuse society's legal protection of disabled people. These fakes promote hostile attitudes to those that do not deserve it.
With that said, I understand that the cost of going after fakes is probably not worth the harm.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by butthurt on Thursday November 17 2016, @04:45PM
I see congruence:
made-up quote: "if they get nervous, they should stay home"
actual quote: It's a bullshit nervous reaction caused by irrational fear. Just stay home [...]
made-up quote: "they should ride in cargo with their dog"
actual quote: Entitled, brats that take advantage of the system should ride in the cargo area if they really want to hang with their friends.
All those posts, and for that matter the one I'm responding to, were anonymous; for all we know it could be the same person posting all of them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @05:30PM
The "bullshit nervous reaction" was about allergies and made after the initial post and the cargo quote was speciffically about frauds - not everyone with a service animal.
As for the others, I didn't see them. Paraphrasing is fine, but mis-quoting or quoting posts that don't exist is not.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @06:01PM
It wasn't the same person. And YOU should ride in the cargo hold. With the door open. Prick.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @03:51PM
"Emotional Support Animals" must be on a leash, so that may help identify "fake" ones. You can only ask if the animal is required for a disability and what it's task is.
Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices.
[..]
When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm [ada.gov]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @06:27PM
That's good information to know.
Of course those who are resourceful (and smarmy) enough to do this are also probably going to learn about these question quickly, so have some easy stock answers at hand. Still, every little bit helps.
If nothing else, having these animals on a leash will be something, and if they claim to be trained to do something and then they act up on the plane it could possibly give the airlines a reason to call the air marshals (or whomever).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @07:14PM
It is sickening that there are some that take advantage of systems put in place to help the disabled and mentally ill.
Looks like what is needed is some form of certification to prove that it is a service animal, and not just a pet of someone faking symptoms out of selfishness or love for the pet.
Autism is considered by many countries as a disability, and for some an animal can help manage anxiety symptoms. Disabilities can absolutely be mental in nature.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 17 2016, @11:28PM
And what of passengers with these physical issues?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 18 2016, @05:50AM
Emotional support animals are not service dogs. They do not qualify for the special access granted to service dogs under the ADA. A service dog must be trained to perform a specific task. Guide dogs for the blind are the most well-known example, but other service dogs include allergy alert dogs, diabetic alert dogs, seizure alert dogs, all of which are trained to alert their human when these potentially life-threatening medical conditions arise. Or they may be trained to assist disabled but not wheelchair-bound people in tasks that are difficult for them, like picking things up for them or helping them navigate stairs.
Emotional support dogs, in the eyes of the law, are simply pets. So if someone claims their dog is for emotional support, you aren't required to allow them. In some places (for example, in places where food is prepared) you may even be required to keep them out.
Myself, I love dogs and think (well-behaved) dogs should be allowed almost everywhere, but unfortunately society doesn't agree.
The other issue is whether it is safe for dogs to fly as cargo. The short answer: it's not. Dogs are routinely killed while flying as cargo. Really, airlines should simply refuse to transport animals as cargo, period. For cats and small dogs, they can ride in the cabin as carry-on baggage (this is already allowed most of the time). Larger dogs will have to take a road trip. Not only is this safer for the dogs, it would also put puppy mills out of business. It may seem inconvenient, but it's really for the best.