Edit: The link.
There were lots of good titles for this submission, as in "Breaking news: Poettering clueless?" to finally disprove Betteridge's law, or "systemd surprisingly not as good as advertised" or "Breaking new: systemd broken" or "Poettering censors critics after epic fail".
Systemd implementation of "rm -rf .*" will follow ".." to upper directory and erase /
How to reproduce:
# mkdir -p /foo/dir{1,2}
# touch /foo/.bar{1,2}
# cat /etc/tmpfiles.d/test.conf
R! /foo/.* - - - - -
Reboot.
After the issue was fixed, finally Poettering added this gem of wisdom:
I am not sure I'd consider this much of a problem. Yeah, it's a UNIX pitfall, but "rm -rf /foo/.*" will work the exact same way, no?
The answer to this question, as many clarified for him, obviously is a loud "NO!". After being told a couple of times in no uncertain terms, the thread was closed for non-developers
poettering locked and limited conversation to collaborators 4 hours ago
for which I proposed the "freedom-of-speech" department (although I admit it is a weak proposal).
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Lagg on Monday April 17 2017, @08:39PM (50 children)
Lennart's reactionary censorship is the result of the community's reactionary hatred and personality attacks like he was Borg 2.0 or some shit. Now he's not even going to bother entertaining any input. Which seems good for an open source project.
Too bad though. I think we could have fixed systemd and made it a pretty cool init system. Once.
Oh and an actual link would be cool
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:09PM (34 children)
He's also behind the PulseAudio disaster, though to be fair, ALSA and the Enlightenment Sound Daemon and Alan Cox's forking of OSS had already pretty well fucked up Linux audio. Lennart Poettering has of course moved on, leaving others to deal with the mess.
He's also behind Avahi, a lovely source of brokenness and security holes. Once again Lennart Poettering has moved on, leaving others to deal with the mess.
One should wonder when he will get bored with systemd, moving on and leaving others to deal with the mess. That could seem like a blessing, but then what will he break? I'm thinking X, or a boot loader, or libc, or something else fundamental that needs to be compatible and work 100% of the time.
Lennart had his chance many years ago. He has repeatedly proven that he totally doesn't give a fuck about the community, about existing users, about developers of other projects, about other Linux distributions, or about stability. Lennart is a total dick; it would take decades of good behavior to earn forgiveness and he hasn't even started yet.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Refugee from beyond on Monday April 17 2017, @09:23PM (7 children)
File access control.
Instantly better soylentnews: replace background on article and comment titles with #973131.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday April 17 2017, @09:30PM (2 children)
That...made me scream like that one character in Metalocalypse when the clown gets really close to him and tries to put his hand down his pants. You know, the kind of scream that starts low and quiet and builds up? That kind. Ye gods.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:43AM (1 child)
"How am I? I woke up... with a clown's hand... in my pants... that's what I did today"
-- William Murderface Murderface Murderface
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:51AM
Also, just so we're all clear... (Same AC)
https://youtu.be/hljtrBwZvBg [youtu.be]
(Score: 4, Funny) by Unixnut on Monday April 17 2017, @11:12PM
There should be a "+1 Please for the love of god, no" mod, just for this.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Soylentbob on Tuesday April 18 2017, @12:09AM
Can we get a "+1 Not Funny" vote, please?
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:04AM (1 child)
I hope he isn't reading this, because I hate to give him ideas, but...
First you take the interpretation out of the kernel. Let's say we justify this by solving the problem of a music player having access to your spreadsheets; they should be isolated. So we put each process in a different namespace, then pass them file descriptors to grant access. If an app wants to open something, it sends a D-BUS message (or a newly invented kind of message; that would be more his style) to a server that will respond with the file descriptor. That server of course supplies the dialog box for the file. Apps that fail to cooperate will see no files ever.
Now that this new service is handling everything, and naturally running as root, it can implement security. Windows 10 ACLs would be the obvious choice. It can be like that, but just a little bit incompatible.
You might wonder how this would work with the command line. Well, you'll need a special modified bash. It will have a built-in command to make the D-BUS request for opening a file. Wildcards become kind of pointless, since you select files through the GUI anyway, so there is no point in supporting wildcards. Legacy command-line tools can be invoked by using /proc/self/fd/ files, after you tell the shell which number goes with which file.
(Score: 3, Funny) by maxwell demon on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:16AM
No, of course to make it work with the command line, you'd add another layer of complexity (and another dependency). The GUI as well as each terminal or terminal emulator register themselves at the server as file selection providers. When a program asks for file selection, the server determines what file selection provider should be used for that process (which, of course, is an error-prone process which often will get surprising results), and then sends a message to the corresponding file selection provider to select a file. The GUI will open a dialog box, while the terminal will show a message and allow text input with tab completion.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:28PM (1 child)
Funny thing is that Poettering claimed he used security best practices for both pulseaudio and avahi, with systemd getting its origin from the lessons learned from that...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @07:32AM
Nah, he was just puttering around.
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Monday April 17 2017, @10:00PM (5 children)
I don't believe I implied the reactionary hatred (and yes it is, seriously some of this shitposting threads I've seen. Come on.) started at systemd? Granted it is what I'm experienced with the most, since I correctly assessed Pulse as an experiment. And never had usecase for Avahi.
Also to be clear I don't want systemd anymore. So I'm not being defensive or anything. I loved it back when I thought it was meant only to be an async startup solution though. Siiiiiigh
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Marand on Tuesday April 18 2017, @03:45AM (4 children)
Also to be clear I don't want systemd anymore . . . I loved it back when I thought it was meant only to be an async startup solution though. Siiiiiigh
That's more or less my feeling about it as well. I like the idea of alternative inits with different strengths, and I would have been fine with systemd as another drop-in replacement for sysv init with a different set of goals. I had a bad feeling about it from the start, though. Partly due to its heritage (Pulseaudio has been nothing but unnecessary pain for linux) and partly because even early on it was being used to absorb other things like logging, instead of playing nice with other parts of the system.
I was also suspicious about the insane amount of FUD being slung around and used to justify the switch. One argument that seemed to come up any time someone questioned systemd's purpose was that we needed it to save us from the horrors of using bourne shell scripts during boot, which was complete bullshit. You can use anything for init, so if that were really the goal it would have been easier to write a unit file interpreter and put a #!/bin/unit_interpreter shebang at the start of any unit files used during init. The interpreter could parse the file and turn it into proper startup/shutdown/etc. You could have the best of both worlds: a simpler, shell-free syntax for basic tasks; and full scripting/programming languages for init "scripts" that don't neatly fit the unit file niche.
I believe that path could have also been used to replace the underlying init in a smoother way as well. Make a replacement init that sends next-gen compatible init "scripts" whatever new commands you want, while the legacy ones get sent the start/stop/reload/etc. commands, eventually phasing out the old completely. Along the way, the unit-interpreter could be used to phase out most of the shell scripts, leaving only the ones that specifically need the flexibility. Maybe even have this init-ng start out in legacy runlevel mode and eventually flip a switch so that it uses its own replacement concept? Dunno, this is off-the-cuff rambling so I haven't put that much thought into it. Point is, the big goals — "parallel booting" and "no shell scripts" — could have been achieved in a way that didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. (I think that's the saying, at least...)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @04:42AM (2 children)
And nothing forbids doing something like:
With init-scripts loading all the functions required, and script_done triggering them. To some point sysv scripts were migrating towards this, using a set of common functions and comments (common in many places: blocks read by tools to do things, or to show defaults and options without putting them as active directives), so unless you needed total control, it was a simple template.
But the whole point of systemd is replacing what exists and making sure there is no way to switch back or even "to the side". Bluntly: eliminate choice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @02:00PM
And crazily enough, that is to some degree what BSDs use.
One central script file defining the basic tasks, and the various daemon/services(ugh...) files that source said script file.
Sadly RH and Debian clung to the AT&T way...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @02:15PM
Talking about eliminating choice.
http://www.islinuxaboutchoice.com/ [islinuxaboutchoice.com]
That domain is assigned to Emmanuele Bassi (ebassi), one of the bigger resident assholes at Gnome.
And it links to an email written by Adam Jackson (Ajax), a prominent developer at Red Hat and Fedora.
In effect, there are big name people involved with Linux user space that do not want there to be choice. Because choice complicates their life. They want one, canonical (heh), Linux distro. And how they plan to achieve this is by tightly interlocking the DE to the plumbing.
In recent years Gnome has pushed out various projects, Among them XDG-app/Flatpak and OSTree, that go way beyond the considerations of a desktop environment. Along with this you have the tight coupling of Gnome and systemd, that itself is a massive blob of formerly loosely coupled Freedesktop projects. And if you pay attention you will notice that most of this is being showcased and first implemented on Fedora.
And frankly this has nothing to with users best interests.
Ebassi have in the past made clear statements that he considers users idiots that best belong in a padded cell.
What is going on is development for developers. Every change done is not to make user life easier, if it does that is an unconsidered side effect.
And this very attitude is why desktop Linux never happens, even though the kernel shows up in all manner of places.
Because Unlike Ajax, Ebassi, Poettering, and a whole bunch of others, Torvalds holds the kernel develops to one simple principle "do not break user space". Thus any change to the kernel that affects an exposed API, syscall, or similar, can't change the behavior of it, official or de-facto, compared to how it was when it was first introduced.
The one fear is that when Torvalds decides to step down, GregKH takes over. This because he is currently in charge of maintaining the stable kernel versions. And he appears to be a close ally of the very people that make Linux user space a eternally broken churn of code.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @10:13PM
> throw the baby out with the bathwater. (I think that's the saying, at least...)
Yes, that is correct usage.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by NCommander on Monday April 17 2017, @10:01PM
On the topic of Avahi, while I'm happy to bash Lennart for most things, that one is actually just due to the fact that Apple's zeroconf specification more or less works that way; it's the implementation of a (IMHO dubious) standard to replicate AppleTalk plug-and-play on IP. A large part of me still thinks we'd been better off keeping support for AppleTalk (or another LAN) network protocol and leaving zeroconf and .local alone.
Still always moving
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @10:31PM (11 children)
can someone tell me why he is allowed to continue this?
if i submit poor work, my ass gets thrown to the curb after less chances than he got. hes getting positions of power and no one has explained why. does he see the code in every day life or something but just fubars it in writing?
dont tell me because 'open source' or something. lots of people can form a mob for free, so i expect that he can be surrounded and excluded and he can call people SJWs or whatever is trending and have little effect
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @10:40PM (2 children)
You'll have nowhere to run from windows 10. Its like there is a concerted effort to break and lower the bar for general computing.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by fnj on Monday April 17 2017, @11:54PM (1 child)
Poettering the Putz hasn't touched BSD with his shit stains, because the ass-clown has contempt for BSD and he makes his junk purposely incompatible with it. Linux may be lost unless it purges itself of this garbage IMMEDIATELY, but a high quality POSIX OS still exists in the form of the BSDs.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday April 18 2017, @08:40PM
I'm not informed enough to understand just how bad systemd is, but I don't have to. The real problems are not technical, but social. The developers are fracturing and bickering themselves into irrelevance and oblivion. In many ways Linux reflects the shattered America with both sides so deeply divided that the whole ship is in trouble.
I don't feel bad about deserting that ship at all and moving to OpenBSD for servers, and venturing out into FreeBSD for a personal workstation. The philosophy is better to me, and we need to move towards security. SystemD is a security nightmare waiting to happen. There is not enough peer review and that Utopia has proven to be an illusion over the least 20 years. Nobody really reviewed anything. SystemD will be a repeat of that, just more complicated and a deeper hole to dig us out of.
Windows IS becoming irrelevant, and has already been irrelevant for quite some time in the server world. That means the favorite attack surface of hackers IS shifting towards Linux in particular. Have we moved towards greater security? NO, we moved in the direction of SystemD and starting a civil war within Linux.
I'm putting all of my energy towards OpenBSD and moving away from PHP to Perl. The BSD community seems like a safer bet to find good, secure, peer review code. That, and the manuals in OpenBSD are very high quality. Like surprisingly high. I spent 20 minutes searching Google, only to find somebody on Google directing me back to my own damn manual which had the answer. All too often in Linux the manuals are missing.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by https on Monday April 17 2017, @11:59PM
He's allowed to continue because it brings Red Hat closer to their wet dream of nobody being able to run linux in an enterprise without needing their commercial support.
Systemd quite literally has no design documentation, and it's been admitted that this is deliberate, that the APIs are a moving target.
There are so many things wrong with systemd that it is hard work to put together a coherent critique of it, kind of like accidentally engaging with a young-earth creationist who thinks UFOs are the angel's chariots. The interaction will not be an "argument" in the canonical sense.
Offended and laughing about it.
(Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @12:03AM (6 children)
The same force that think endless mass immigration of Muslims is a good idea and that diversity is a strength while plurality of ideas ain't. I think we can call one component Open Society Foundation, another corporate self serving etc..
By wrecking open source projects users can be herded into even worse options. The Poettwreck is likely to continue outside the Linux sphere.
Everyone can form a mob. But some mobs have a monetary flow coming their way. So follow the money..
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:15AM (5 children)
Comparing Lennart to Muslims is an insult to Muslims....
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @02:16AM (4 children)
Hillary Clinton and Poettering would make the perfect running mates, always blameless, always smarter, always better than everyone else in every way.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @04:09PM
Hillary Clinton and Poettering would make the perfect running mates, always blameless, always smarter, always better than everyone else in every way.
So, completely unlike say Trump and Torvalds?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @05:25PM (2 children)
Clinton? Really? Is your head really THAT far up your ass? We've got a guy sitting in the White House (actually, more likely sitting in Florida) who knows "way more about ISIS than the generals", still insists he had the highest turnout for his inauguration, didn't include the Democrats AT ALL on that shitshow known as the health care fix and then blamed THEM for its demise, etc., etc., etc., and this is just from the last 100 days and doesn't include the well-documented pattern of personality behavior over the last 50 years, and you pull those phrases out and apply them to Clinton??? It is the critical thinking skills of dipshits like you that got us in the crappy political situation we're in now.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @07:10PM
I am still holding out hope that Trump is playing the fool on purpose and is secretly in cahoots with Clinton. What better way to do an end-run around the Republicans? Embody the caricature of bigoted misogyny so perfectly, tank the reputation of the US so hard that Republicans never recover? Make even die hard Republicans question their party's goals for fucking ONCE! Also, get all the nutters to out themselves like various users here are doing in a shockingly bold way now. Let their inner devils feel free to express themselves so we can get on with ignoring them all.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday April 18 2017, @10:11PM
To be completely fair, Hillary is a completely evil treasonous bitch that has no interests in serving anything else but the interests of the Elites and Owning Classes.
Trump is his own shit show, but that doesn't mean Hillary wasn't the most corrupt person of all time running for Democratic office.
It's hard to get mad at people for choosing between being neck deep in shit and having vomit thrown on you, or just ducking under into all the shit. That was the choice between Hillary and Trump; You're going to die painfully, please choose the method.
Trump IS worse. That's why the MAJORITY of the VOTERS chose Clinton instead of Trump. Trump won with the corrupt Electoral College and now here we are. Watching the shit show and arguing in hind sight about how Hillary wasn't all that bad is fucking pointless.
We had two corrupt evil fuckers run for office, and they divided and destroyed our country. Period.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @11:14PM (2 children)
The basic problem with poettering is that he has violated the single principle that made UNIX great...Keep It Simple Stupid!
Linux was found on the idea that every command had a simple task that was easy to verify and multiple tasks in a single program make it large and unwieldy.
Poettering, on the other hand has to take over everything...with a binary no less.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday April 18 2017, @12:07AM (1 child)
Let's write a virus that demonstrate how bad Poettering designs are .. *evil grin*
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @11:40AM
Too late, someone already did it. I believe it's called "systemd", and has infected a large number of systems already.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Tuesday April 18 2017, @12:22AM (1 child)
then what will he break? I'm thinking X, or a boot loader, or libc
(g)libc is already taken care of, we've got Drepper for that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @02:37AM
He departed to Goldman Sachs to fuck shit up there instead for 3+x the salary :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:21PM
Reactionary hatred? Far from it.
the guy have a history of grandiose statements and foot in mouth moments that should long since have made him a pariah of the Linux world.
But instead he not only keeps on producing code and decisions of questionable merit.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Soylentbob on Monday April 17 2017, @09:48PM (1 child)
The link... [github.com] Sorry, missed it in the submission
(Score: 2) by cmn32480 on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:20AM
And I missed it again in the editing...
"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear" - Norm Peterson
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DECbot on Monday April 17 2017, @09:55PM (4 children)
I keep hoping that he'll move over to Gnome3, so I have more justifications to ignore Gnome and justify my boycott, but, I'd settle for him moving on to Firefox. Though, the HTML5 or HTTP 2.0 or Wayland or whatever he proposes to replace ssh would make more sense as a career move since those aren't completely borked yet.
Maybe Linux needs a universal graphics, hard drive/RAID, and WiFi driver... You know, kind of like ZFS + OpenGL + graphics drivers + WiFi + network management--but the network manager must be incompatible with whatever comes with systemd. Hmm... it should probably come with something akin to ssh support too.
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @10:23PM
Maybe Linux needs a universal graphics, hard drive/RAID, and WiFi driver... You know, kind of like ZFS + OpenGL + graphics drivers + WiFi + network management--but the network manager must be incompatible with whatever comes with systemd. Hmm... it should probably come with something akin to ssh support too.
Yes! And we can call it alphabetd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @12:03AM
don't forget: Ability to read email ! :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @02:18PM (1 child)
He pretty much already work for Gnome.
Heck, thats how it all started. By him trying to "fix" the audio on his Gnome desktop install.
That lead us to Pulseaudio...
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday April 18 2017, @06:57PM
Doctors know: Scratching an itch [wikipedia.org] can make it worse. [iflscience.com]
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by cmn32480 on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:20AM (4 children)
My fault. I botched the sub trying to get stuff in the queue and totally missed the lack of link.
I shall go put my hands on the fence post and await my whipping.
"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear" - Norm Peterson
(Score: 2) by Lagg on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:25AM
I actually copy-pasta'd lennart's quote into google shortly after posting that and found it. Thanks though :D
http://lagg.me [lagg.me] 🗿
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:30PM (1 child)
Hello, I will be your judge, jury and executioner today.
For your crime, you are hereby sentenced to use a systemd operating system for your day to day and critical business use for the next six months.
May God have mercy on your soul.
(Score: 2) by cmn32480 on Tuesday April 18 2017, @06:09PM
So I get to upgrade from Windows? SWEET!!!!!
"It's a dog eat dog world, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear" - Norm Peterson
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @04:13PM
I think the form should require a link. For the subs and for the published stories.
Make the robot do the work, they don't mind it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:39AM
The last OS I can remember that did that was DOS. If you were foolish enough to delete the . file for the directory it would trash the whole filesystem. I did that a few times out of curiosity.
Seriously, this kind of incompetence and distros are willing to trust his code?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @05:54AM
He's more machine than man, now.
(Score: 4, Informative) by tangomargarine on Monday April 17 2017, @08:44PM (21 children)
For something as facepalm-worthy as this, we really need actual source links in the summary.
In other news, I hear Lennart Poettering eats live chinchillas. It was discussed on the developer mailing list. No, I don't have a link.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @08:51PM
Some things you can take as an article of faith.
Sorry chinchillas, we can't save you all :(
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:01PM
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 [github.com]
(Score: 5, Informative) by Marand on Monday April 17 2017, @09:04PM (17 children)
Here's the github issue. [github.com]
That's the only thing I've seen on the matter so far. Honestly there's not much to it: someone gave a matter-of-fact bug report, Poettering tried to claim it was consistent with "rm", and a few people pointed out that he has no clue how rm works. If Poettering hadn't put his foot in his mouth it wouldn't even be noteworthy.
Of course, there's the whole "those who don't understand unix are doomed to reimplement it poorly" angle. Why does systemd needs its own not-invented-here version of "rm -rf" at all? I found that fact more interesting than the responses to the report.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Monday April 17 2017, @09:07PM (10 children)
rm -rf is about the last command I would trust anyone to reengineer even if they *did* know what they were doing. It's almost like he's *trying* to piss people off.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Marand on Monday April 17 2017, @09:31PM (2 children)
Well, they already re-overengineered the single most important process on the system (init), so why not rm too?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @01:33PM (1 child)
STOP GIVING THEM IDEAS!! :-(
(Score: 2) by Marand on Tuesday April 18 2017, @04:36PM
Based on the summary, I think it's safe to say they already had that idea before I commented. :(
(Score: 2) by edIII on Monday April 17 2017, @09:37PM (6 children)
LOL. Yeah, rm -rf is very fucking dangerous. Especially messing around as root. With undelete capabilities not really being present Linux/BSD you are left with data recovery tools. The only thing funnier is that the command in question deletes all the tools you need to do anything :)
rm is a command that requires a tremendous amount of trust in the developers. I still get nervous every time I type it, and I do know what I'm doing too.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday April 17 2017, @10:15PM (3 children)
Neither NTFS have any undelete capability or does it?
(Score: 2) by fnj on Tuesday April 18 2017, @12:02AM (1 child)
You can undelete in NTFS with proper tools to a certain extent, and you can more or less in ext2/3/ext4 too. Not my cup of tea, but I know people who profess to have had success in both cases.
You can leverage snapshots in ZFS as insurance against user boo-boos _if_ you think to make them before you do particularly risky operations.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday April 18 2017, @08:10PM
I've been involved in far too many data recoveries over the last 30 years. I remember when recovering from FAT meant huge piles of floppies shipped back to you with individual files missing the file names of course. A pretty sharp outfit also analyzed the files too and categorized them into what types of files they were. Technically that was recovery, but it meant it people combing through files for months trying to rename and organize them.
Recovering from ext2/3/ext4 is much harder than recovering from NTFS. I did get lucky using Stellar Phoenix (I think) on that Linux partition and recovered all of the files. That NTFS recovery was also an enterprise RAID that involved Drive Savers, and they were expensive as fuck. They say they are super heroes, and boy do they want to get paid like them. I never even tried to do it myself since I suspected drive damage occurred, of which it did, of which the Dell L3 tech on the phone didn't believe there was, and to which eventually Drive Savers described it like an action movie with explosives all occurring on the platters. They actually explained it like that with those words :)
In both of those situations, the people coming to me had no backups whatsoever. It was the only copy in the world. That's what I remember about data recovery. An owner of the data pacing around behind you acting like the world is over. Fun times.
These days I just make sure I have a snapshot every 24 hours and have forgotten about data recovery. That would mean I failed at distributing the data across more than one machine.....
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday April 18 2017, @07:47PM
Technically, no. You're correct :)
However, Windows never actually deletes a file. That's their trick. They just take it and hide it in a bin, and then gave it that goofy name, "Recycle Bin". What were they recycling again?
Linux and BSD are perfectly capable of doing the same thing, but the philosophy I see in OpenBSD is that the majority of deletes need to be permanent. rm is capable of overwriting files with random data too. Linux has never been big on the quasi-delete either.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Tuesday April 18 2017, @09:00AM (1 child)
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday April 18 2017, @07:43PM
That's pretty cool. Now if they can just get ZFS into OpenBSD....
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by sjames on Monday April 17 2017, @10:37PM (3 children)
What makes it interesting is that Poettering's reaction to the perfectly good and very important bug report is at the root of about half the things wrong with systemd. The other half are design flaws that would take a major re-working to fix the right way.
Even those might have been avoided if "shut up" wasn't the default reply to anything questioning the one true way.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Marand on Monday April 17 2017, @10:58PM (2 children)
Yeah, that's what I meant about his foot-in-mouth moment being the only reason it was noteworthy. Unfortunately, that's his default reaction to everything, so it isn't as interesting as the "we reinvented rm -rf" aspect. :/
But hey, at least he didn't accuse the submitter of hating handicapped people; that's arguably an improvement over how he's handled criticism in the past.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by sjames on Monday April 17 2017, @11:18PM (1 child)
This is true.
As to why systemd needed it's own version, as near as I can tell they're trying to replace every critical piece of system software with one that is incestuously dependent on the rest of systemd. If people have too many useful standalone utilities it's too easy to give systemd the boot.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @01:59PM
It is getting that way now. Ubuntu is neutered without systemd. It really does need to be broken up and removed.
If you can't remove a *nix program and swap in another in its place then something is seriously wrong.
It is horrifying looking at the dependencies dragged in when installing programs now. Why does an application have the init system as a dependency?
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Monday April 17 2017, @11:05PM
...Why does systemd needs its own not-invented-here version of...
Because it's "not invented here"?
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @10:25PM
I RTFBR and "tmpfiles: R! /dir/.* destroys root" is accurate. This alone would be soylentnewsworthy - do any of my scripts do this? I don't think so... but what if one of the generated paths does that... this is a bit of a nightmare until I've literally 'search'ed every machine.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Monday April 17 2017, @10:06PM
> we really need actual source links in the summary.
My AI processed the factoid "Poettering reimplemented rm and borked it" as quite predictable. If his new and improved version of rm worked well, then I would have asked for link and formal proof myself, as it would have needed major reordering of knowledge structures.
citation time, year 2011 link [linuxquestions.org]
"Let me summarise. systemd is exactly the sort of thing a one-club golfer would come up with if he had extraordinarily deep C skills, no systems administration experience, no historical perspective, and didn't consult anyone who might spoil the illusion."
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @08:56PM (13 children)
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 [github.com]
And this is the individual soo many binary distribution have gotten into bed with hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. His narsatistic NIH attitude is opening up soon many machines to damage.
Those that don't understand UNIX...
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday April 17 2017, @09:32PM (12 children)
One more of these, one more, I swear to Cthulhu, and I am going to figure out how to get FreeBSD going on my machine. Granted since I run Gentoo it's free of systemd for now, but how much longer until he manages to slime his way into the main coreutils branch?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday April 17 2017, @09:37PM (3 children)
On the positive side, Canonical just freed a whole bunch of Unity and Mir developers, who could make short work of removing systemd from Ubuntu...
Pretty please?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by NCommander on Monday April 17 2017, @10:04PM (2 children)
Most of them were let go as far as I know based on what I heard from my old contacts there. As much as I hate systemd, I actually understand this because Debian switched to systemd. Upstart was a drop-in replacement so Ubuntu packages could take advantage of it while sysvinit scripts would "just work".
(ex-Canonicaler, but I have friends there)
Still always moving
(Score: 2) by cubancigar11 on Tuesday April 18 2017, @06:03AM (1 child)
Debian was the true disappointment for me. After that I also switched to systemd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @11:26AM
I run Debian with openrc on all my systems, and haven't run into any issues with that -- except having to edit Xwrapper.config to allow startx to work without logind.
Of course, I don't use anything Gnome either.
(Score: 2) by julian on Monday April 17 2017, @09:56PM (1 child)
Tried it. It's an exercise in reliving all the frustrations of running Linux in the late 90s, early 2000s.
systemd is actually the path of least resistance, and I'm including even other non-systemd Linux distros. There's nothing as complete and polished as Ubuntu in the non-systemd world. Sucks, but that's where we are.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday April 18 2017, @07:46AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 3, Interesting) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Monday April 17 2017, @11:17PM (5 children)
One more of these, one more, I swear to Cthulhu, and I am going to figure out how to get FreeBSD going on my machine.
Tried that as a way of being systemd free. It was a lot easier than rumour has it but it took a bit more time than setting up a Linux distro. It's a nice system, but for my use case (seven different PCs, imaging not an option) the cost in time was going to be too high. But it's still on my radar if Slackware ever gets engulfed and devoured.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Tuesday April 18 2017, @09:04AM (4 children)
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Tuesday April 18 2017, @10:53AM
Did you try FreeBSD or PC-BSD (or TruOS, as I think it's now branded).
FreeBSD. I can't remember why instead of PD-BSD, but it did seem to be a good idea at the time.
It was the thought of seven sets of download/install operations that made me look at Linux again - I chose Slackware as a way of learning Linux (and hopefully Unix) to make the the switch easier; but I liked it so much I stayed with it.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday April 18 2017, @02:26PM
TruOS
As opposed to all those fake OSs out there. Not quite as dumb a name as PCLinuxOS, I guess.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by purple_cobra on Thursday April 20 2017, @12:47PM (1 child)
TrueOS, for reasons of marketing...
I tried sticking it on an expendable netbook to see what would happen: the SATA driver shits itself and the suggested solution - dropping to a shell mid-boot and setting a kernel hint - makes it work. I later find out that there's some issue with UEFI systems and GRUB, so I should use the BSD bootloader...which it doesn't give me the option to install. OpenBSD installed on the same machine quickly and worked fine until I flattened the HD to try TrueOS instead. Maybe I'll try it again after they've updated the install images. And it works so well in a VM!
(Score: 1) by purple_cobra on Thursday April 20 2017, @01:37PM
*sigh* Fat-fingered that comment...
The suggested fix *doesn't* make it work and it continues to throw errors about a controller that OpenBSD and a few Linux distributions (with and without systemd) can happily use without issue.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:04PM (4 children)
The best part is the dipshit actually wonders why people are resistant to running his code on their computers. IT'S BLUNDERS LIKE THIS, MORON!
This is some serious amateur hour bullshit. The dumbass doesn't even have a complete grasp of how a *nix system works, yet he's in charge of maintaining CRITICAL. SYSTEM. CODE. What's next, letting him infect the mainline kernel with his crap?
Systemd is malware, and any distro that relies on it is defective. Thanks a lot asshole, you've broken 90% of the Linux world.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:26PM (2 children)
Not sure if Poettering has ever submitted code to the kernel, but his compatriot Sievers have.
Code that Torvalds was less than happy about, on more than one occasion.
Sadly Sievers seems to be on good terms with GregKH, a highly active kernel developer and maintainer of the "stable" branches of each kernel release.
Thus one may wonder what will happen to the Linux kernel quality once Torvalds decides he is too old to herd bobcats, as GregKH is the most likely candidate to take over that job...
(Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:58PM (1 child)
That is all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:39AM
Would Torvalds mind if the fork was called "Torvix"?
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday April 18 2017, @07:48AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:08PM (5 children)
Here's the fix:
rm -rf systemd
(Score: 5, Touché) by fritsd on Tuesday April 18 2017, @04:17AM (4 children)
I can't do that, Dave.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @10:48AM
And for some reason the airlock just opened.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @10:54AM (2 children)
sudo rm -rf systemd
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @11:47AM (1 child)
username is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @02:23PM
https://xkcd.com/838/ [xkcd.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 17 2017, @09:23PM (1 child)
Do we have enough of a reason now to get all the distributions to dump systemd? This should be proof enough of total incompetence to make it happen.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 18 2017, @04:35PM
There are many which do NOT use systemd, and for those that do, you can often replace it with openrc.
I run these which do NOT install systemd: SlackWare, Alpine, RedHat/CentOS 6 (NOT 7!)
go here: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page [without-systemd.org]
CentOS 6 is not listed but I'm running it on a live webserver that rocks.