Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by charon on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:28PM   Printer-friendly
from the let-'em-eat-brioche dept.

Trump is planning on signing an executive order on Tuesday that will cause a review of the H1-B program. It is just a review, and undoubtedly business interests will step up the pressure, but there are some interesting ideas:

"If you change that current system that awards visas randomly, without regard or skill or wage, to a skill-based awarding, it makes it extremely difficult to use the visa to replace or undercut American workers, because you're not bringing in workers at beneath the market wage," the official said. "So it's a very elegant way of solving systemic problems in the H-1B guest worker visa."

Breitbart of course has an article out (though it reads like they need to hire some native speaking editors) -- still, recent college grads face a huge hurdle:

The federal government releases little data on the many different guest-worker programs, but the available evidence says the national population of white-collar contract workers is up to 1.5 million. That population is roughly twice the population of 800,000 Americans who graduate from college with skilled degrees each year.

And finally, lest people forget that progressives also have issues with H1-B visas, here is Bernie Sanders (a decade ago of course) attacking this ploy to make sure money only trickles up by ensuring low wages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR9QdQIKqMc

[Ed Note: Trump did sign the executive order at a photo op in Wisconsin.]


Original Submission

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough

Mark All as Read

Mark All as Unread

The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
(1) 2
  • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:37PM (36 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:37PM (#496314)

    Please take your editorializing somewhere else, and report only facts about the story. I can't stand the snark, and most other media outlets have articles that read like they need to higher someone with a brain.

    • (Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:41PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:41PM (#496319)

      they need to higher someone with a brain.

      Ooooh. Ouch. I, too, hate when that happens; all of the power of your statement has just been blown away like a fart in the wind.

      The Universe loves itself some irony.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:04PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:04PM (#496517)

        As much as I like your comment (I consider it to be a form of hire education, regarding proper selection of employees etc...)

        It should be noted that the H1B issue has primarily been considered to have been caused by the republican party.

        "Progressives" have been complaining about this for some time, with the exception of other helpful resources like Lou Dobbs, who has been going on about this for close to 20 years if not longer.

        The real cause, though, are business executives. It doesn't seem to matter who is in office; the only ones that have wanted to do something about it are those not presently in office.

        To see Trump look into this as a true issue is not going to remove any animosity he may have generated due to other actions of his, but it goes a long way to help smooth over the bumps that exist.

        At least in a case like this, if Americans in the IT industry can get and reliably keep a job, maybe they wouldn't need subsidies with the ACA when they are forced to be consultants because companies don't want the baggage of employees and the benefits/entitlements people seem to demand. It could be they actually might be able to afford the insurance!

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:07PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:07PM (#496602)

          Trump isn't now just looking into the issue; this H1-B visa stuff was a major part of his campaign, but you "progressive" fools never bother to actually listen to what any opposition candidate has to say.

          Also, why are there benefits/entitlements demanded of companies? Well, because of decades of governmental meddling: Look up the history of wage caps put in place during WWII for the beginnings of the Health Care nightmare. It's ALWAYS government that is at fault.

    • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:26PM (32 children)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:26PM (#496354)

      H-1B is widely derided and despised. Is there a reason for that? Should we all just shut up and suck it?

      • (Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:44PM (8 children)

        by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:44PM (#496365)

        Indentured servitude as a form of slavery devalues your fellow man, so in a sense slavery devalues yourself.

        • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:44PM (6 children)

          by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:44PM (#496413)

          Mumble mumble violently imposed monopoly mumble mumble mutually beneficial contracts mumble unicorns mumble rainbow ponies mumble competitive enforcers mumble...
          Nope, still can't figure out how he does it...

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:39PM (5 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:39PM (#496438)

            Man

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:15PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:15PM (#496497)

              Woman

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:35PM (2 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:35PM (#496504)

                Aardvark.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:39PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:39PM (#496533)

                  Mardwark

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:18PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:18PM (#496558)

                  Platypus

            • (Score: 1) by charon on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:27PM

              by charon (5660) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:27PM (#496499)
              Speak of the devil!
        • (Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:19PM

          by NewNic (6420) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:19PM (#496467)

          Indentured servitude as a form of slavery devalues your fellow man, so in a sense slavery devalues yourself.

          H1s as used today. No so much in the past.

          I lived in the USA as an H1 non-resident alien twice, going back to my home country (and some others) in between. During my second H1 stint, I was able to change employer, get a green card and eventually become a citizen. No indentured servitude and I don't think that I was a cheap employee: in fact, I am quite certain that I cost my first H1 employer far more than local hires.

      • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:54PM (18 children)

        by ikanreed (3164) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:54PM (#496373)

        It's not despised by the people who use them, of course.

        My girlfriend is a 3d design artist working on a technical student education visa extension, and is currently trying to get an H1-B because she likes the culture of the US more than her home culture.

        She brings useful and productive skills, and I kinda feel miffed that abstract economic protectionism might lead to her being sent away. Sure, I'll admit that at some level H1B is specifically designed to depress high-skill job wages. But it's also designed to brain drain other countries and make the US one of the most productive places on the planet.

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:56PM (10 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:56PM (#496376)

          Except for the little sticking point that H1Bs don't often become citizens. They take their work experience back to their home country. Net gain for the US: a few thousand dollars padding to corporate budgets.

          • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:06PM (8 children)

            by ikanreed (3164) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:06PM (#496381)

            In my career as a software engineer, I've known at least 3 H1B coworkers take and pass a citizenship test. And I'm an anti-social ass who avoids learning about his coworkers lives for the most part.

            • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:17PM (7 children)

              by ikanreed (3164) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:17PM (#496389)

              I should add that they originally came as H1-B workers, but were obviously not H1B when they passed the test, because our obtuse immigration rules would never allow that.

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:53PM (6 children)

                by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:53PM (#496418)

                Yes, you need to go through the Green Card stage for a few years first.

                Side note: If you came to do code/engineering work, taking the citizenship test is passing the test.
                They give you a booklet of answers, don't require you to know all of them, and unless you have a terrible translator or memory, you're going to pass.

                • (Score: 2) by NewNic on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:14PM (5 children)

                  by NewNic (6420) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:14PM (#496461)

                  Even more hillarious: taking the language test for someone born and raised in the UK.

                  • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:40PM (4 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:40PM (#496482)

                    Poor bastards, how could they ever pass? Colour? It's COLOR moron :)

                    • (Score: 2) by Kromagv0 on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:53PM (2 children)

                      by Kromagv0 (1825) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:53PM (#496509) Homepage

                      It is usually lifts, lorries, flats, and hundreds and thousands that fuck up the British on that part of the test.

                      --
                      T-Shirts and bumper stickers [zazzle.com] to offend someone
                      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:07PM (1 child)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:07PM (#496550)

                        tannoy snog chips boot biscuits knickers knackered woohoo

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:02AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:02AM (#496656)

                          Spam, spam, eggs, bacon, and spam,

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @01:15AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @01:15AM (#496634)

                      and it's neighbourhood you twat!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:19PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:19PM (#496468)

            > Except for the little sticking point that H1Bs don't often become citizens.

            Originally they did. But two things have happened over the last decade:
            (1) The green card process has become so drawn-out that many give up or are forced to give up by circumstances like the expiration of their H1B visa
            (2) Off-shorers have started gobbling up the lion-share of H1B visas so they can do on-site training as the first step to shipping the work off-shore

            One idea, which I like but which will never happen because xenophobia, is that H1B should be replaced with a fast-track green card, like 2 years. The employers get to have their indentured servant for 2 years and then they are free to compete on equal footing with everyone else, and if they are that important to their employer they'll be paid premium wages not slave wages anyway.

            Last night on PBS Newshour, one of the guests said that 80% of H1B holders are paid at a rate equal to entry-level wages. That's the real problem, regardless of whether they stay or not.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:04PM (2 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:04PM (#496380)

          Then she needs to go for a green card and not an H1B. H1B is for jobs where there are no American workers. There are plenty of American workers in 3D design.

          Don't get me wrong, I am not saying shes not welcome, but as far as im concerned shes going aboutstaying the wrong way.

          • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:12PM (1 child)

            by ikanreed (3164) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:12PM (#496385)

            How, exactly, do you think green cards are allocated? There's really just the FB and EB program.

            I mean, I admit she could get one through marrying me, but, you know they mostly don't give them out to people who aren't currently living in the US, right? Like, one of the main green-card processes is employment-sponsored, wherein an employee on a temporary working visa, such as the H1B, applies for a permanent resident status through their employer who vouches for their long-term value to their company.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:05PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:05PM (#496456)

              You are missing the point. H1B is the wrong way to go, and no I do not support people trying to get that visa just so they can move to the US. Its not even good for the visa holder, you are pretty much an indentured servant. There are other ways to skin that cat.

        • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:13PM (3 children)

          by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:13PM (#496495)

          It's not despised by the people who use them, of course.
          My girlfriend is a 3d design artist working on a technical student education visa extension, and is currently trying to get an H1-B because she likes the culture of the US more than her home culture.

          All that says is that she despises the program less than she despises her home country.

          --
          "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
          • (Score: 2) by ikanreed on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:53PM (2 children)

            by ikanreed (3164) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:53PM (#496508)

            She doesn't despise her home country. She just thinks this one's culture suits her better.

            • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:13PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:13PM (#496522)

              She North Korean???

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:59PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:59PM (#496544)

                Lies! North Korea Best Korea!!

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by AndyTheAbsurd on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:45PM (1 child)

        by AndyTheAbsurd (3958) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:45PM (#496506) Journal

        H-1B is widely derided and despised. Is there a reason for that?

        Yes, there is a reason for it. The reason is that there are a handful of big IT "consultancy" firms that hire a lot of people - mostly but not exclusively Indian people - and bring them to the US on H1-B visas and peddle their services to various corporations, often at rates that undercut the wages of US citizens who could provide those services. And the people that are hired by the consultancy firms are not well vetted, so are frequently barely able to complete the tasks that they get hired to do. Add to that the thick, difficult-to-decipher accents of the recently arrived and the different idioms ("do the needful") of their cultures, making it difficult to communicate with them.

        Basically, working with H1-B visa holders is often a swirling vortex of suck, because you have a hard time understanding them, they have a hard time understanding you, everything is taking longer than it should, and everybody is underpaid for the amount of work that's being attempted.

        Should we all just shut up and suck it?

        No. We should bother our congresscrittters until they're forced into rewriting the rules of the H1-B program to do what it was actually intended to do: only bring in foreign workers when there is no reasonable option for hiring someone already authorized to work in the US and capable of working on the high-tech project.

        --
        Please note my username before responding. You may have been trolled.
        • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:45AM

          by hemocyanin (186) on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:45AM (#496668)

          It's now marked flamebait so the thread may not be perfectly clear depending on how low you browse, but my question was a rhetorical quip to some now properly modded AC.

          Anyway, I totally agree with your points.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:06PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:06PM (#496586)

        H-1B is widely derided and despised. Is there a reason for that?

        The H-1B visa is supposed to be for "skill shortages", but it's quite often NOT used for that purpose. I've seen many instances personally. Because my anecdotes are common to others, I won't repeat them.

        I didn't vote for Trump, but I'm glad he's attempting to reign in visa abuses. Give him kudos where due.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:30PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:30PM (#496606)

          How could you miss the shortage of sysadmins with 20 years of server 2016 experience? We were offering $35k for on-call 24/7 support but still had not takers. Let me tell you, InfoSys delivered! I mean come on... they are info AND sys! What could go wrong?

  • (Score: 5, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:42PM (18 children)

    by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:42PM (#496320)

    Breitbart of course has an article out (though it reads like they need to hire some native speaking editors)

    Breitbart's editors are, I mean, people call me all the time and say this, ok? And I hear what you are saying. But they are native speaking. That I will tell you. We're confident, I mean, that they are native speaking. If that is what you're asking me. Otherwise they would be in big trouble. Alright? But we're sure, it would be unbelievable if they weren't, but we're sure they are native speakers. Ok? I have personally spoken, I mean I visited them. And they seemed perfectly to speak English to me, and even in my presidential speaking style, they seemed, I mean, to be emulating it. Trust me. I know my Russian, or, um . . . English speaking editors at Breitbart.

    • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:51PM (17 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:51PM (#496324)

      You've become obsessed with Trump. Either some mental illness has emerged from the depths of your mind, or you're some kind of paid opposition—nobody can spend this much time crafting [anti-]Fan Art without some kind of worrisome underlying fault.

      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:59PM (1 child)

        by takyon (881) <takyonNO@SPAMsoylentnews.org> on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:59PM (#496331) Journal

        We're in the era of machine learning. Someone will probably code a translator to do this thing automatically.

        --
        [SIG] 04/14/2017: Soylent Upgrade v13 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:42PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:42PM (#496363)

          Sample, and link for source download on this page, https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/jbc/home/chef.html [utexas.edu]

          It's about time someone added some 5d choice, we've been stuck wid Swedish Chef, Jive, Valley Girl, Pig Latin, Fo' far too long.

          Input string =
          It's about time someone added a 5th choice, we've been stuck with Swedish Chef, Jive, Valley Girl, Pig Latin,
          For far too long.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:07PM (1 child)

        by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:07PM (#496338)

        You've become obsessed with Trump.

        It's no different than the humor of any other current events. You'll note that I also have had fun poking fun at United airlines recently, for example.

        It's just that Trump is the comedic gift that keeps on giving. Nothing more.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by Nerdfest on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:36PM

          by Nerdfest (80) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:36PM (#496402)

          It's just that Trump is the comedic gift that keeps on taking. Nothing more.

          FTFY.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:34PM (12 children)

        by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:34PM (#496400)

        One more thought. To Trump supporters, I would say: Trump won. Get over it.

        You cannot put such a bumbling illiterate clown circus in power, fumbling and stumbling over one another, and then complain about the hilarity of the daily antics that result.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by edIII on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:28PM (11 children)

          by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:28PM (#496433)

          Of course they can complain!!!! LOL

          You see, the worst part is that you are not parodying him. He does actually speak like that on occasion. I remember reading that comedy writers said all you really had to do was just use their exact words. The White House administration has become the comedy writers. These are the gold bricker years for them. Trump does all the work, and Spicy provides the bonus material.

          Every time you point out how much of an idiot he is, you point out just how much they fucked up electing him. People don't like having their bad decisions thrown back in their faces. Ohhh, that, and when you speak like a complete buffoon and are a generally bad person you get what you get.

          I'm looking forward to 4 years of triggering the precious little snowflakes; The Trump Supporters. Not any harder than pointing out how their boy has fucked them over, flipped flopped on everything, abjectly failed at running government, and has delivered the country to Russia. This is a very painful and sensitive time for Republicans. They deserve every second of it.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:28PM (8 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:28PM (#496472)

            All that matters is that he's deporting brownies.
            He's kept that promise - just kicked out the first DACA kid and Rep Steve King tweeted a virtual beer to DHS in celebration. [thehill.com]
            And as racial insecurity was the primary motivator for voting Trump, they will be happy.
            In fact, all the other things he screws up are seen as an acceptable price of their racial security blanket.
            Its not like any of his contradictions during the campaign bothered them.

            • (Score: 4, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:49PM (7 children)

              by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:49PM (#496485)

              Okay, I have a purely hypothetical question.

              Imagine that someone just committed the criminal act of painting a swastika on a Trump tower.

              Who should the police be first to suspect:
              1. His detractors?
              2. His supporters?

              That would seem to make it difficult to narrow down the suspects.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:58PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:58PM (#496577)

                His detractors.
                The nazis have been emboldened, but they aren't going to tag a trump tower because its already tagged with their leader's name.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:16PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:16PM (#496603)

                  Clever giiirl.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday April 20 2017, @04:21AM (4 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 20 2017, @04:21AM (#496686) Journal

                Imagine that someone just committed the criminal act of painting a swastika on a Trump tower.

                Who should the police be first to suspect:
                1. His detractors?
                2. His supporters?

                Shouldn't it be obvious that spray painting a swastika is meant as an act of disrespect? His supporters aren't going to do that.

                • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:53PM (2 children)

                  by DannyB (5839) on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:53PM (#496872)

                  His supporters (some of them) would do it as an act of allegiance. Just google for: "bannon endorsed by nazi party". Among the results, the KKK also endorses hiring of Bannon. All of this speaks volumes. You don't have to make anything up. Their own supporters say the crazy things for you. I could provide links, but I thought the hint on what I googled for would be more useful.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday April 21, @07:57PM (1 child)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday April 21, @07:57PM (#497561) Journal

                    His supporters (some of them) would do it as an act of allegiance.

                    No, I don't buy this ridiculous narrative. Spray painting swastikas is an insult and vandalism. That's disapproval not approval. Supporters aren't suddenly going to get the idea that spray painting it on the side of the Trump building will tell the world that they support Trump.

                    Just google for: "bannon endorsed by nazi party".

                    And? Hitler endorsed vegetarianism. Should I be concerned about vegetarianism's ties to the Nazi party?

                    All of this speaks volumes.

                    What I find telling here is that you are the second replier here to speak of the quantity of evidence rather than the quality. I don't need volumes of mediocre reasons to own a cat, I need just one good one.

                    I could provide links, but I thought the hint on what I googled for would be more useful.

                    It does save me from having to explain the problems with any links you provide. Thanks.

                    The US media is quite hostile to Trump. If there was really a strong linkage between Trump or his political allies (particularly, a media player like Bannon) and the Nazi party, then that would come out. We wouldn't have to play this game of googling for fringe propaganda.

                    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday April 21, @08:20PM

                      by DannyB (5839) on Friday April 21, @08:20PM (#497573)

                      I don't have to google for fringe propaganda. I get told way too much of it by word of mouth. Some of which, I don't evaluate critically enough. Nobody may paint swastikas as an act of support. (Which I intended to be mostly humorous.) There are plenty of Trump's supporters who identify with or as racists. Also Trump doesn't have to consider those people allies for them to potentially act in bizarre ways that they might believe to be an act of support. I would definitely agree that nobody sane would vandalize a property as an act of support for the owner of that property.

                • (Score: 2) by edIII on Thursday April 20 2017, @07:50PM

                  by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 20 2017, @07:50PM (#497023)

                  God, you are a fucking idiot. Of course they would. Trump was elected in part due to White Nationalism, and huge swaths of his most rabid supporters are fans of Info Wars, Daily Stormer, Brietbart, etc.

                  OF COURSE they would tag the tower with Nazi imagery. Why not? They feel that their time has arrived, and by doing that, they announce to all the minorities that the OLD ORDER is back, and you'd better start showing the respect and fealty that they demand. Especially to their race.

                  The evidence is fucking everywhere you complete moron. Destruction of Jewish cemeteries, burning of Mosques, beating the shit out of Muslim women in hijabs, etc. Do you think the safety-pin movement came from nothing? Or did it come from a massive increase in hate crimes after Trump started his campaign.

                  Basically the only way you can say something that blissfully unaware, is that you are a White Nationalist yourself pushing a false narrative that racism and bigotry hasn't come roaring back in America.

                  Fuck you, and burn in hell. As usual.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:18PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:18PM (#496523)

            They got to have the same fun pointing out Obama's problems, but it wasn't as fun for them because most liberals/progressives were like "I know right? What a lying jerk Obama turned out to be..." and then a bunch of others had the semi-decent defense that Congress was controlled by the oliphonts so Obama couldn't do everything he promised. Not that it excuses his crimes against the people, but it does hold some truth.

            God save us from the adult children.

            • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:57PM

              by DannyB (5839) on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:57PM (#496873)

              I had some disappointments with Obama. But that is not to say I was disappointed overall. But at the end of the day I did not expect that Obama might end the world as we know it.

  • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:48PM (6 children)

    by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:48PM (#496322)

    Will this executive order accomplish anything? Is it somehow binding? Force of law? Will it prevent corporations from finding ways to hire cheap foreign labor? Even if forced to hire American, will corporations lower their standards of treatment of American workers to that of the H-1Bs being replaced? I am assuming that there are enough skilled American workers for skilled high tech 21st century jobs, but is this true?

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:34PM (2 children)

      by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:34PM (#496358)

      Only if they do something with the report after it comes out. I wouldn't be surprised if it is basically marketing, a way for Trump to claim he's doing something for American workers without doing anything. Sort of like how Warren lambastes banks when there is no real risk of any sanctions against them, as a way to market herself to Democrats.

      In the end, we all know where the power is and what happens as a result -- remember the hue and cry by the American public to have their private data monitored, collected, packaged, and sold by Comcast and that lot? Yeah, me neither but that bit of legislation slid through like greased lightening. On the other hand, allowing average citizens to use international markets (buy cheap drugs in Canada) was killed by a bipartisan coalition of Democrats and Republicans. Ultimately, cynicism about this review is in order.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by VLM on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:54PM (1 child)

      by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:54PM (#496374)

      https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/04/18/presidential-executive-order-buy-american-and-hire-american [whitehouse.gov]

      Section 3 is basically ordering some future behaviors of a vague sort and a bunch of reports. The EO doesn't specify how forcefully it'll be enforced nor does it provide numeric beancounter metrics.

      It is a major policy change in that the past couple decades the policy has pretty much been "middle class white people you need to hurry up and die off".

      So its simultaneously meaningless and epoch changing depending how you look at it.

      Its kinda like when Lincoln freed the slaves toward the end of the civil war. On one hand that's shocking policy change coming from the fedgov not even a decade after "Dredd Scott" decision, on the other hand they're not living in the lap of luxury merely because some cracker yankee politician said they're free...

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:02PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:02PM (#496515)

        And nothing about it prevents companies from closing the req's down here and opening them in a low cost centers , which is very possible for many jobs being done by H1B holders today . . .

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by MrGuy on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:04PM

      by MrGuy (1007) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:04PM (#496423)

      As I understand it, congress instituted the H-1B program, but with a cap on the number that could be granted in a particular year.

      The program is always oversubscribed - H-1B's are generally gone within days of the applications opening.

      I do not believe that congress specified the mechanism used to determine WHICH applications get approved when the program is oversubscribed - just that no more than the cap could not be exceeded. The Department of Labor has (to date) used a random lottery to determine which valid applications get approved. The choice of a random lottery is the DoL's choice, not a congressional mandate.

      Assuming I'm correct in that, then, yes, an executive order for the DoL to prioritize certain applications (as opposed to using a random lottery) would definitely accomplish something - it would effectively change the process. The DoL works for the executive branch, not congress. As long as congress didn't specify otherwise, the DoL has a lot of lattitude in determining HOW they stay within the cap. And a change like this would be within the scope of their authority.

      The impact of this would depend on the specific mix of H-1B applications, but it really could do a lot to curb abuses, such as companies replacing US workers with H-1B workers to save money [workforce.com] and not because they couldn't find US workers (which is the stated purpose of the program). If only higher-salary H-1B applications would get approved, it would remove some of the financial incentive for abuse, because abusers would be less likely to get their H-1B's.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:54PM (20 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @02:54PM (#496327)

    here is Bernie Sanders (a decade ago of course) attacking this ploy to make sure money only trickles up by ensuring low wages

    Yes and ten years later we see Bernie was correct and that Western economies have been hollowed out with declining relative income for the productive sectors of the lower middle class. Attempts to debunk the elephant curve [ft.com] routinely fail to balance increases in living costs (property prices) in the West with lower labor costs in the developing world. We've all witnessed the reality.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:04PM (19 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:04PM (#496336)

      Rather than build itself around the signals of people's needs and wants, the market has unwittingly built itself around the fantasy signals concocted by know-nothing paper-pushing bureaucrats.

      It's no wonder that resources have been poorly allocated; it's no wonder that people's needs and wants are not being met.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by meustrus on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:20PM (18 children)

        by meustrus (4961) <reversethis-{moc.liamg} {ta} {surtsuem}> on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:20PM (#496349)

        the market has unwittingly built itself around the fantasy signals concocted by know-nothing paper-pushing bureaucrats.

        I think the bureaucrats happen to know quite a lot, actually. They've built exactly the system they intended to.

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by hemocyanin on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:25PM (17 children)

          by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:25PM (#496353)

          It takes an hour to watch, but this interview with Sir James Goldsmith from the early 90s (complete with the smug Bill Clinton administration hack's response) proves that yes indeed, the trickle up effect is intentional, well understood, and has been decades in the works:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PQrz8F0dBI [youtube.com]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:17PM (16 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:17PM (#496390)

            Thanks for Goldsmith link. This clip is less than 10 minutes.

            I only knew him as one of the most cut throat corporate raiders -- buying up the stock of companies and then either taking over or threatening management to generate short term profit & stock price increase (eg, sell branches of the company). This side of him as a member of Euro Parliament, arguing for the preservation of the old order was quite surprising (old order of the division of profits between capitol and labor).

            Seems like he had an awakening of some kind late in life?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:32PM (14 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:32PM (#496399)

              Everyone has capital, including the "laborer".

              A person's capital is any resource (time, money, labor, mind, etc.) that said person can allocate according to solely his own will. That is what capitalism is: The recognition that resources should be allocated according to voluntary interaction—there is no division between classes.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:38PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:38PM (#496404)

                Do you have any excess capital? I have a really good deal on a bridge.

              • (Score: 5, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:40PM (12 children)

                by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:40PM (#496406)

                The problem with that fantasy is that the laborer needs to eat in the fairly short term. The corporation that abuses them doesn't. Especially when we have a government of the corporations, by the corporations and for the corporations. Because corporations are people too. The corporations will find someone who will do the job for cheaper and less humane working conditions with no health care. Once the corporations all collude to treat humans this way, with the force of law behind it, there is little that laborer, or secretary, or anyone else can do.

                There is an imbalance of power here. The government has been corrupted beyond the possibility of repair. Some will disagree, but IMO we are already beyond the event horizon but just haven't recognized it yet.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:52PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:52PM (#496415)

                  That's just it: It is not the case that government has been corrupted by the power of corporations; rather, the corporations have been corrupted by the power of government.

                  See here. [soylentnews.org]

                  • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:33PM

                    by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:33PM (#496476)

                    I saw that earlier and decided then not to reply. See my reply there now.

                • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:59PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:59PM (#496421)

                  There is an imbalance of power here. The government has been corrupted beyond the possibility of repair. Some will disagree, but IMO we are already beyond the event horizon but just haven't recognized it yet.

                  I couldn't have stated this any better. Do keep in mind that the wealth creators were never the lawyers, financiers, or rent seekers. Smart parasites never kill their hosts -- keep an eye on that event horizon as the white collar workers begin to wake up.

                • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:07PM (8 children)

                  by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 19 2017, @05:07PM (#496425) Journal

                  The government has been corrupted beyond the possibility of repair. Some will disagree, but IMO we are already beyond the event horizon but just haven't recognized it yet.

                  That's my read as well. There are only so many times in a historically short span of time that you can vote for a complete change of government, seeking fundamental change, and not get it, repeatedly, before the reality you're pointing out sinks in.

                  --
                  Washington DC delenda est.
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:34PM (7 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:34PM (#496477)

                    That's my read as well.

                    Yours are the fantasies of pampered little shits who have never lived through government collapse.

                    • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:39PM (3 children)

                      by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:39PM (#496481)

                      The last thing I want to see in my lifetime is a government collapse. I simply believe it will come and is unavoidable. Fifteen years ago I realized the government was hopelessly corrupt, but believed it could be fixed. Now I no longer believe it is possible to fix.

                      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:02PM (2 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:02PM (#496581)

                        I simply believe it will come and is unavoidable.

                        You've heard the term, "self-fullfilling prophecy?"

                        Government is fundamentally nothing more than a shared belief. If enough people believe it will collapse, then due to their inaction in response to actual crises for fear of "throwing good after bad," it will collapse. Nihilism like yours is the primary enabler of collapse.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @03:19AM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @03:19AM (#496672)

                          ohh nooooeeeessss! what would we do without career thieves to try to steal from us everything that makes us human! fuck those parasites. all the chicken shits who fund them are the problem.

                        • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday April 20 2017, @03:09PM

                          by DannyB (5839) on Thursday April 20 2017, @03:09PM (#496878)

                          It's not self fulfilling prophecy. I think Phoenix666 (552) above said it best:

                          There are only so many times in a historically short span of time that you can vote for a complete change of government, seeking fundamental change, and not get it, repeatedly, before the reality you're pointing out sinks in.

                          Obama: Change we need
                          Trump: Make America Great Again
                          Two big changes mandated by the people, in different directions. Yet the people seem to perceive their problems are not being fixed. I'm sure the 1% behind the scenes are laughing themselves silly as the people are deeply divided, the politicians are deeply divided, and everyone is fighting each other while they make out like bandits on the back of everyone else.

                          I don't have to do anything to make it all collapse. I simply have an opinion that it will. I don't want it to. But I am able to not let what I want (or what I don't want) to affect my evaluation.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:24PM (2 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:24PM (#496527)

                      No where does he say he wants to go through a collapse. We're all scared shitless of a collapse, but we're also fed up with being serfs in a rigged game that is only getting worse every year. Also, some of us would like our planet to remain inhabitable in the long term. We have so much human capital, so many potentially talented people who could be given useful projects, but we're hamstrung by greed and the focus on capitalistic profits. No no, nothing wrong with the idea of capitalism, only with applying it 100% to society.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:08PM (1 child)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @09:08PM (#496551)

                        You either have the resources to live the way you want, or you do not. It's that simple.

                        The word "profit" doesn't just mean "bank balance"; money is but one way to measure profit.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:18PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:18PM (#496604)

                          Highschool economics is not enough for you to enter this discussion.

            • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:39PM

              by hemocyanin (186) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:39PM (#496405)

              It takes an hour to watch all five or six parts.

  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:45PM (26 children)

    by Thexalon (636) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:45PM (#496367) Homepage

    The reason that the big tech firms love H1-B employees so much has not all that much to do with depressing wages. What they really like, more than anything else, is that H1-Bs cannot say no to their bosses without risking deportation. If, say, a manager demands a 100-hour work week, a US-born worker is likely to say "Screw you, I'm in a high-demand profession, I'm stopping at 65 hours, and you can either accept that or fire me, and if you fire me I'll be working for your competitor in about 2 weeks." Whereas an H1-B worker is much more likely to say "Please, sir, don't send me back to my home country where my earnings are about 20% of what I can make here! I'll do whatever you say!"

    And yes, these bosses are conveniently ignoring all available evidence that making your employees work 100 hours a week has at best no effect on productivity.

    --
    If you act on pie in the sky, you're likely to get pie in the face.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by turgid on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:49PM

      by turgid (4318) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @03:49PM (#496370) Journal

      Correct answer.

      --
      Don't let Righty keep you down.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:35PM (16 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:35PM (#496401)

      These tech firms have outsourced their bullying to the monopoly on imposition: Government.

      Without government thugs being ready, willing, and able to follow through with the threat of deportation, these tech companies wouldn't be able to do that; the problem is the inherent nature of government: Imposition; involuntary interaction; dictate; mandate; ultimatum; decree.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:17PM (8 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:17PM (#496462)

        Repeat after me, child: "Regulatory capture." Saying that this makes regulation or government bad is precisely the same as saying that a tumor proves that the concept of multicellularity is bad.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:26PM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:26PM (#496471)

          That's just it: It is not the case that government has been corrupted by the power of corporations; rather, the corporations have been corrupted by the power of government.

          If you organize your society around the notion that imposition is acceptable, then that is what you'll get: Imposition.

          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:35PM (6 children)

            by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:35PM (#496479)

            If a government, even the best, most benign government with the best possible public interests in mind; if that government is unable to coerce things with the force of law, then it simply is unable to function. It's regulations mean nothing. Laws mean nothing. Taxes to pay for public projects are meaningless.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:14PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:14PM (#496496)

              Why do you not yet understand that? The problem is one of organization, not enforcement.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:22PM (4 children)

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:22PM (#496524)

                Hey, dumbass, what the fuck do you think "entity that has power to enforce consensual mutually-agreed-upon contracts" is called? That's right: government. Even if it doesn't call itself that, at the end of the day, that is government.

                Your ancap retardation is a shallow, literal-minded, shortsighted third-grader's caricature of a free society. 30 seconds of logical thought would show anyone with a shred of honesty how that system would quickly collapse into dictatorship.

                • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:43PM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:43PM (#496536)
                  • There is very little support in a western society for strong contract agreements; it's all smoke and mirrors that hide the ultimate truth: "The outcome is whatever the government says".

                  • What makes an organization a "government"? I'll tell you: An organization becomes a government when it allocates resources by imposition, rather than by agreement (including agreement in advance). In a given jurisdiction, any such organization which has the greatest claim to a monopoly on such imposition is the organization that people usually call "government".

                  • (Score: 1) by charon on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:58PM

                    by charon (5660) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:58PM (#496608)
                    You appear to be saying something, but really you're hiding behind vague words. Tell us all what precisely you mean by "strong contract agreements". What makes them strong? What would make them weak? What happens when someone cheats? What happens when everyone cheats? Who enforces the letter of the agreement, and (the tricky part) how do they do it without using violence or threat?
                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @12:32AM (1 child)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @12:32AM (#496618)

                    What makes an organization a "government"? I'll tell you: An organization becomes a government when it allocates resources by imposition, rather than by agreement (including agreement in advance).

                    I guess you have never heard of this thing called democracy? Democracy actually does work by agreement, at least in theory; that is what that whole idea of "consent of the governed" is all about. Granted, it isn't perfect (nothing ever is) but that is precisely the way it is supposed to work. You should read up on it sometime.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @10:44AM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @10:44AM (#496790)

                      Equal votes for unequal minds.

                      It's based around the notion that it's OK for one group to dictate to another group.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:30PM (6 children)

        by DannyB (5839) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:30PM (#496474)

        I can agree that corporations can outsource bullying to government. But this only works when the government are thugs willing to go along with corporate bullying. IMO, the government of recent years is happy to be the corporations' bully -- as I wrote elsewhere in this topic, because the government is hopelessly corrupted.

        There are TWO things that are (or should be) the inherent nature of government:
        1. the power to coerce or force, as you point out
        2. managing common resources for the public good (using the power of 1 above)

        You seem to suggest that the coercive power of government is inherently bad. I don't believe it is, in principle. Governments should coerce people not to steal, rape and murder. Governments should coerce polluters into not polluting -- or at least regulating it. Governments must coerce taxation. However I want to pay for the smallest government necessary to accomplish things in the public good, like roads, schools, GPS, etc. Coercion is a necessary function. But it isn't necessary that it must be misused. I would rather have functioning government than anarchy.

        When government power is used to coerce the wealth divide to get bigger, then something has failed completely. There was a time when things were not this bad. Government power could be used for the overall good. (Despite respectful disagreements about precisely what the common good is.) But given my personal belief that people are inherently evil, I recognize that you must have the necessary checks and balances in place at all levels. The founders of our government seemed to recognize this very well. However what they failed to see, could simply have not foreseen was the rise of global megacorporations with concentrations of wealth and power that were simply unimaginable to them. And that is what brings us to today. The system is broken. Don't expect it to get better. It's not some fundamental problem with government. It's some fundamental problem with what is in the human heart.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:30PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:30PM (#496501)
          • You AGREE with such governmental actions; therefore, for YOU, those are not examples of coercion.

            To enforce a contract to which you have agreed in advance is not coercion of you.

            If you agreed not to produce anymore beer, then the Prohibition wasn't coercion for you; it was simply following through with what you promised.

            If your system allows a particular organization ("government") to declare your 100-year-old pub to be illegal, or to confiscate your family's safe of gold, or to lock up people in internment camps for having Japanese heritage, or to barge into people's abodes and beat them up for smoking a leafy plant, etc., then your system is not acceptable.

          • The United States Government is a naive, primitive, crippled attempt to create a separation of powers (or a system of checks and balances);

            A real separation of powers is achieved through competing law, whereby "law" is the collection of all contracts between individuals, and whereby the contract-enforcement industry must compete within the market like any other industry.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:53PM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @07:53PM (#496510)

            Ok so help me out.

            Let's say that I'm living in Libertopia (or whatever we'll call a theoretical place that implements your system--and I'm starting to like it more and more), smoking some leafy plants in my house, and a bunch of thugs with guns break in, wreck my furniture, beat me to a pulp, drag me out my front door, and throw me in a cage.

            I've never seen those people before, never liked who they say they work for, and I was absolutely certain that I had not agreed to something like that in any of the myriad of contracts I'd agreed to.

            What happens next? How do I get out of the cage? Why would they possibly agree to me make me whole again?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:23PM (3 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @08:23PM (#496525)
              • In these discussions, it is quite common for someone to say "OK, so, all of a sudden, overnight, government completely disappears. What happens now?!" Well, I'll tell you what happens now: Mayhem, violence, death, and despair. Go to the nearest grocery store, and grab as many cans of beans as you can cart away in your shirt.

                That is to say, I'm completely uninterested in revolution; rather, the key is evolution: To evolve society into another mode of organization, likely by establishing new organizational structures in parallel to the existing order of things.

                Your question is deeply embedded in the context of our present societal organization—that is why you find the scenario so bewildering. However, I'm not saying that the current system should be thrown out and replaced with some nebulous notion of contract negotiation/enforcement—and I'm certainly not going to tell you how society should be organized. Indeed, there is no such thing as Intelligent Design; society must evolve by variation and selection (that is, by trial and error; that is, by producer competition and consumer choice), a process that yields solutions that are often very surprising and downright unintuitive, especially because those solutions solve problems that no sentient mind even new existed.

              • I will say at most this: The scenario you are describing is essentially war; such activity is usually not very profitable overall—enforcement agencies would have a large incentive to come to agreements about how to establish well publicized, transparent, enforcement of well-defined contracts. Woe to the enforcer that storms a house without overwhelming justification.

                As it is now, that justification is "The Law is the Law!" That is, the justification is a cultural reverence—almost a religious reverence—for this one particular organization in the market (the one that calls itself "government").

                By comparison, consider that there has never existed a World Government; in a sense, "national" governments exist in a kind of anarchy that is increasing governed by contract negotiation, dispute-resolution, and enforcement as a matter of public justification and agreement between each other. Hell, despite decades of provocation, the United States is still struggling to find a good way to barge into North Korea's house in order to give the resident a bit of roughing up.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:21AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @02:21AM (#496664)

                Nations are ever at war.

                Thus would sovereign citizens ever be at war, until they banded together into villages, then city-states, then nations, then we're right back to the beginning.

                I believe the best way to argue for your ideal to be workable is to argue that men can become angels.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @10:56AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 20 2017, @10:56AM (#496793)
                  • Firstly, you're the one supporting a monopoly on imposition (violent imposition, no less); so, you are the one who would require men to be angels—the ideas of which I speak are a direct acknowledgement that men are not angels, and therefore cannot be trusted with such a monopoly.

                  • Secondly, Bastiat wrote the following around 1848: [bastiat.org]

                    The claims of these organizers of humanity raise another question which I have often asked them and which, so far as I know, they have never answered: If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? The organizers maintain that society, when left undirected, rushes headlong to its inevitable destruction because the instincts of the people are so perverse. The legislators claim to stop this suicidal course and to give it a saner direction. Apparently, then, the legislators and the organizers have received from Heaven an intelligence and virtue that place them beyond and above mankind; if so, let them show their titles to this superiority.

                    They would be the shepherds over us, their sheep. Certainly such an arrangement presupposes that they are naturally superior to the rest of us. And certainly we are fully justified in demanding from the legislators and organizers proof of this natural superiority.

                    Please understand that I do not dispute their right to invent social combinations, to advertise them, to advocate them, and to try them upon themselves, at their own expense and risk. But I do dispute their right to impose these plans upon us by law—by force—and to compel us to pay for them with our taxes.

              • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 20 2017, @01:53PM

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 20 2017, @01:53PM (#496853) Journal

                I'm "bewildered" as well. Tell you what - give us all a half dozen working examples of this utopia you preach of, so that we can study how they work.

                Oh, what's that you say? There are no working examples of utopia?

                STFU, idiot. You're just another fucking false prophet, looking for a cult of clueless idiots to tell you how smart you are. Evolution, you say? Yeah, right - get back to us in a couple million years. People aren't changing much, any sooner than that.

                You sound very much like the socialists/communists, who preach on and on about the merits of communism. Except - they can't point at one single successful communistic country. They CAN point to some small groups that have made communism work pretty well, but it simply doesn't scale up very far.

                You, and they, are stuck in that monkey theory. You only know a few people, and you just know that if the world would go away, and leave you and your few freinds alone, you could get along just great with your own system.

                Get used to the idea that your small scale utopia doesn't fit into the great macrocosm known as "society".

                If it makes you feel any better, I don't fit into society either. I'm an asocial asshole, and I don't give two fucks about society. So, you can I are somewhat alike. Your problem is, you expect society to change to meet your expectations. I don't. You should get a grip on reality, and understand that society will do as it will, and it sure as hell isn't going to listen to your brand of nonsense.

                --
                This broadcast is intended for mature audiences.
    • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:42PM (6 children)

      by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @04:42PM (#496411)

      I guess I was the unicorn H1B with a very good wage and without a slave-driver boss (especially compared to the workaholic current one).
      But it is true that young foreign workers were less distracted by family, and more likely to work harder to prove that they belong where they are.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:36PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:36PM (#496480)

        > I guess I was the unicorn H1B with a very good wage

        80% of H1B holders earn entry-level equivalent wages.

        • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:43PM (4 children)

          by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @06:43PM (#496483)

          Which is OK if you're doing entry-level work.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:04PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:04PM (#496584)

            Except H1B is explicitly not for entry-level work, its for highly-skilled employees.

            • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:32PM (2 children)

              by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @10:32PM (#496590)

              Member of Technical Staff 1 : EE/CS right out of college

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:01PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:01PM (#496596)

                I don't think you've thought through what you just wrote.
                I'll give you some time to let it sink in.

                • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:07PM

                  by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday April 19 2017, @11:07PM (#496601)

                  Let me go erase my memory and burn my CV, as well as advise many of my friends to follow suit, for the convenience of an AC's uninformed world view...

                  H1Bs are the way to keep Masters students working in the US in high-tech.
                  Obviously, it's a lot more paperwork, and carries the risk of cultural misunderstandings, compared to hiring Passport-carrying-American graduates. Yet, companies routinely do it, at starting salaries which are definitely not bargains.

    • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday April 20 2017, @01:54AM

      by kaszz (4211) on Thursday April 20 2017, @01:54AM (#496654) Journal

      Is the Oracle Java engine the proof of this? :p

(1) 2