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posted by mrpg on Saturday May 13, @11:58AM   Printer-friendly
from the of-course dept.

Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard

The Dakota Access pipeline already had its first leak – 84 gallons of oil – at a pump station in South Dakota in early April, sparking outrage and calling into question its environmental safety.

[...] The report of the spill can be found on the Department of Environmental and Natural Resources website. The agency apparently did not make any official announcement on the incident as it was relatively minor and had no environmental impact, according to Brian Walsh, a scientist with the department, as cited by the Guardian. The site "was cleaned up right away," the official added as quoted by ABC news.

The spill occurred less than 110 miles from Lake Oahe, which supplies Sioux tribes with water.

Source: Dakota Access pipeline suffers oil leak even before becoming operational


Original Submission

Related Stories

US District Court: Approval of Dakota Access Pipeline Violated the Law 32 comments

AlterNet reports

A federal judge ruled [June 14] that the Trump administration must conduct additional environmental review of the Dakota Access Pipeline, handing a limited victory to Native American tribes fighting the administration's decision to move forward with the project.

In an extensive opinion,[PDF][1] Washington, DC District Court Judge James Boasberg sided with the tribes by agreeing the Army Corps of Engineers "did not consider the impacts of an oil spill on fishing rights, human rights, or environmental justice."

[...] Boasberg did not order a shutdown of operations on the pipeline, which began pumping oil early this month. The tribes and pipeline owner Energy Transfer Partners are ordered to appear in court next week to decide next legal steps, and the tribes are expected to argue for a full shutdown of pipeline operations.

[1] Link in article redirects.

Previous coverage:
Dakota Access Pipeline Suffers Oil Leak Even Before Becoming Operational
Recent News Dispatches From Standing Rock (DAPL)
Army Corp of Engineers Now Accepting Public Comment on the Dakota Access Pipeline
Army Corps of Engineers Blocks the Dakota Access Pipeline
Standing Rock Protester May Lose Her Arm Because of Police Grenades
Water Cannons Used in Sub-Freezing Temperatures at Dakota Access Oil Pipeline Protest
Standing Rock Protestors Gassed and Attacked; Bundy Gang Acquitted [Updated]
Journalist Charged in North Dakota with Rioting; Case is Dismissed


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  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @12:21PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @12:21PM (#509111)

    They get their way, shove the pipeline through, and I wish I wasn't so cynical to think that this was a staged middle finger to the tribe. "Fuck you, shut up, or the next one goes into your very means of survival!"

    For anyone who thinks that is absurd, much more money has been wasted on symbolic gestures by rich dudes.

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by wisnoskij on Saturday May 13, @12:27PM (17 children)

    by wisnoskij (5149) <{jonathonwisnoski} {at} {gmail.com}> on Saturday May 13, @12:27PM (#509114)

    Pump stations get slight spillage, they are designed to handled them, up to thousands of gallons with less environmental impact than my spilling a table spoon of oil when I go to change my oil.

    --
    Respect my Authoritah!!!
    • (Score: 3, Informative) by its_gonna_be_yuge! on Saturday May 13, @12:31PM (11 children)

      by its_gonna_be_yuge! (6454) on Saturday May 13, @12:31PM (#509116)

      Pump stations get slight spillage, they are designed to handled them, up to thousands of gallons with less environmental impact than my spilling a table spoon of oil when I go to change my oil.

      That's not really the point though, is it? Forcing this pipeline through was done under the "it's all safe - look ma, no leaks" banner. This slight spill puts an end to that ridiculous lie.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by wisnoskij on Saturday May 13, @12:35PM (8 children)

        by wisnoskij (5149) <{jonathonwisnoski} {at} {gmail.com}> on Saturday May 13, @12:35PM (#509117)

        No.
        No oil spilled into the environment.
        And we we know that pipelines are the absolute safest and most environmentally friendly way of transporting oil known to man by a long shot. Spills and environmental damage are possible, but are way lower than any other method.

        --
        Respect my Authoritah!!!
        • (Score: 2) by its_gonna_be_yuge! on Saturday May 13, @12:53PM (3 children)

          by its_gonna_be_yuge! (6454) on Saturday May 13, @12:53PM (#509126)

          No. No oil spilled into the environment.

          Again, that simply isn't the point. If you state there will be no leaks, and then rely on retaining structures to hold in leaks that do happen, it still means there are leaks.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday May 14, @03:58AM (2 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 14, @03:58AM (#509337) Journal
            As wisnoskij noted, it's not a leak into the environment. So no, you don't have a point here.
            • (Score: 2) by jasassin on Sunday May 14, @04:36AM (1 child)

              by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Sunday May 14, @04:36AM (#509346) Journal

              I take no pleasure in saying wait for it to happen.

              I wish you were right, no problems at all. I will not apologize for my foreboding thoughts.

              --
              jasassin@gmail.com Key fingerprint = 0644 173D 8EED AB73 C2A6 B363 8A70 579B B6A7 02CA
              • (Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Sunday May 14, @04:50AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 14, @04:50AM (#509356) Journal

                I take no pleasure in saying wait for it to happen.

                And when "it" does, so what? We already know what large oil spills do and how to contain them. Meanwhile the benefits of this pipeline are roundly ignored. Are you going to take pleasure in discussing the benefits of this pipeline?

        • (Score: 2) by driven on Saturday May 13, @01:14PM (3 children)

          by driven (6295) Subscriber Badge on Saturday May 13, @01:14PM (#509129)

          "And we we know that pipelines are the absolute safest and most environmentally friendly way of transporting oil known to man by a long shot"

          Depends where you run the pipelines. Pipeline planners have no qualms about routing piping next to (or even through) fresh water bodies. Environmental catastrophe is inevitable.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by butthurt on Saturday May 13, @02:11PM (1 child)

            by butthurt (6141) on Saturday May 13, @02:11PM (#509153) Journal

            > Pipeline planners have no qualms about routing piping next to (or even through) fresh water bodies.

            DAPL’s route crosses agricultural land, protected wildlife habitats, and three major rivers: the Missouri, the Mississippi, and the Big Sioux.

            -- https://grist.org/justice/theres-a-new-mega-pipeline-in-town-heres-why-it-has-so-many-protesters-in-the-trenches/ [grist.org]

            Its opponents have called themselves "water protectors" to highlight their concern about contamination of water.

            https://www.wired.com/2016/12/standing-rock-safe-dapl-still-needs-cross-river/ [wired.com]

            This small leak onto what I'm guessing was a concrete apron with a lip is inconsequential. Leaks elsewhere along the pipeline could be uncontained and could go unnoticed until large amounts of oil escaped. If oil got into a waterway, it could spread out into a thin film on the surface, and could be transported with the water's flow. Those factors would add to the difficulty of cleaning it up. Events of those sorts are what the fuss was about, if I'm not mistaken--not events like this.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @03:24PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @03:24PM (#509175)

              Don't worry friend, we will install a nice thick lead lining to contain the oil spills.

          • (Score: 2) by Sulla on Saturday May 13, @03:30PM

            by Sulla (5173) Subscriber Badge on Saturday May 13, @03:30PM (#509177)

            Huh, sounds like of like rail

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @06:07PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @06:07PM (#509221)

        Actually that isn't true, a worldwide oil/energy reporting agency (not government affiliated) says that trains are actually a slight bit more friendly. Now, this may be taking into account older pipeline tech, but at the current point in time pipelines are not magically safer as a whole. Welcome to being a victim of corporate propaganda :D

      • (Score: 2) by gman003 on Saturday May 13, @06:10PM

        by gman003 (4155) on Saturday May 13, @06:10PM (#509222)

        Is it really a "leak" if it did not enter the ecosystem, and was fully contained by safety measures? I suppose it's a leak from the "shipping oil to sale" standpoint, but not the "keep the oil out of the drinking water" one that everyone really cares about.

        Anyone with a middle-school level of engineering knowledge knows about defense in depth. This is evidence of the system working - a defect in one component did not cause a failure.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by zocalo on Saturday May 13, @12:47PM (2 children)

      by zocalo (302) on Saturday May 13, @12:47PM (#509123)
      The same applies to non-pollutant liquids being pumped as well, right down to potable water. You generally expect some leakage and the occassional accidental spill at pumping stations so design for it; that generally means sitting all your pumping equipment in a bunded pit with facilities for drainage and easier retrieval of split liquid for whatever disposal or reclaimation processes you have in place. While there are absolutely valid concerns for the construction and operation of the Dakota pipeline, this seems much more like business as usual being spun into something it isn't to try and generate an "I told you so" story for those opposed to the pipeline. Not exactly fake news, but definitely not the major incident and sign of things to come that some of the reporting is portraying it as.
      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
      • (Score: 2) by butthurt on Saturday May 13, @02:29PM (1 child)

        by butthurt (6141) on Saturday May 13, @02:29PM (#509161) Journal

        > [...] to try and generate an "I told you so" story for those opposed to the pipeline.

        The article quotes one opponent who claims the company said there would be no leaks. If they really said that, this event refutes it.

        > Not exactly fake news, but definitely not the major incident and sign of things to come that some of the reporting is portraying it as.

        Who has called it a major incident? The AP story linked from the Guardian article says:

        The April 4 spill was relatively small and was quickly cleaned up, and it didn't threaten any waterways.

        The Guardian article says

        [...] an environmental scientist with the South Dakota department of environment and natural resources, said the spill was relatively minor [...]

        Democracy Now!--whose reporter was charged with trespassing--emphasises how soon the leak happened:

        [...] Dakota Access pipeline has already had its first leak—and the pipeline is not yet even in operation. The 84-gallon oil spill [...]

    • (Score: 2) by chewbacon on Saturday May 13, @03:33PM (1 child)

      by chewbacon (1032) on Saturday May 13, @03:33PM (#509178)

      This is analogous to finding fecal coliform in your kitchen and saying you have shit all over your house. Fucking whiney babies reporting.

      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 14, @12:59AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 14, @12:59AM (#509306)

        finding fecal coliform in your kitchen

        ...the day after you bragged to the press that your place was so clean that folks could eat off the floor, whereupon the county inspector shows up (on his usual schedule) and shuts down your place (of business) because of the contamination.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 1, Troll) by kaszz on Saturday May 13, @02:08PM

    by kaszz (4211) on Saturday May 13, @02:08PM (#509149) Journal

    Black (oil) Leaks Matter!

    Probably payed by black money ;)

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @07:56PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 13, @07:56PM (#509242)

    84galons that's about 300l or around 2 barrels, like 120$ worth of oil and approximately 0$ of ecological damage.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Weasley on Saturday May 13, @09:59PM (2 children)

      by Weasley (6421) on Saturday May 13, @09:59PM (#509265)

      Yes but the lake was only 100 miles away. It's probably ruined now.

      • (Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday May 16, @10:20PM (1 child)

        by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 16, @10:20PM (#510791)

        I have no idea how you got modded informative, but the very fact it was 100 miles away makes your statement completely and wholly false. This was 84 *gallons*. A little over 1 1/2 barrels of oil (using 55 gallon drums). It was nothing. Over the course of a summer you lose more oil from watercraft into our lakes and rivers. It truly was an operationally miniscule amount that was fully accounted for and handled because it happened at a pumping station.

        As one of the water protectors, I can tell you honestly that this is not the thing to get upset about. At all. I don't even consider this a leak, but that it was characterized as a leak for propaganda purposes. I don't appreciate that because I have intimate engineering knowledge of oil & gas as well as fracking. Having been on wells being drilled, I can promise you that a lot more than that is spilled while drilling and accounted for in cement lined holding ponds.

        When DAPL fails, it will NOT be only 84 gallons of oil. There have been many, many, many oil spills in U.S history, and none of them list amounts that small. So when a leak happens, you will understand just exactly what a leak is when it exceeds this "spill" in a just a few minutes.

        We must resist, but we also must have logic, science, and history on our side. This isn't the battle you are looking for...

        • (Score: 1) by Weasley on Thursday May 18, @05:25AM

          by Weasley (6421) on Thursday May 18, @05:25AM (#511550)

          I agree. I thought my sarcasm was so thick you could stop 50 caliber bullets with it.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by jasassin on Sunday May 14, @01:05AM (7 children)

    by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Sunday May 14, @01:05AM (#509309) Journal

    This is near native Americans water supply. They've already had all the good land stolen, all the buffalo killed to starve them to death, and now an oil pipeline next to their water supply. This may be a small spill, just wait for the big one. Then what, some TV commercial with the naked CEO of the Keystone XL pipeline laying on a bearskin rug in front of a fireplace telling everyone how sorry he is?

    People making light of this should be ashamed of themselves.

    --
    jasassin@gmail.com Key fingerprint = 0644 173D 8EED AB73 C2A6 B363 8A70 579B B6A7 02CA
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday May 14, @04:37AM (6 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 14, @04:37AM (#509347) Journal
      Well, what happened? A very minor leak with no contamination of the environment? Here, we make light of a light event.

      And why do American Indians deserve more respect for their water than anyone else does with their water? Let us keep in mind that Bismarck with a population more than ten times as big (with I might add, a population of American Indians half as large as Standing Rock) was on the other route considered by the Army Corps of Engineers. This peculiar warped sense of priorities isn't new [soylentnews.org], but we still have the same problems. You want us to make decisions that according to your viewpoint would harm more than an order of magnitude more people because some ethnic group had tough luck in the past.
      • (Score: 2) by jasassin on Sunday May 14, @04:46AM (5 children)

        by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Sunday May 14, @04:46AM (#509354) Journal

        And why do American Indians deserve more respect for their water than anyone else does with their water?

        You don't have it, you can't even buy it, and you just don't get it.

        --
        jasassin@gmail.com Key fingerprint = 0644 173D 8EED AB73 C2A6 B363 8A70 579B B6A7 02CA
        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday May 14, @05:07AM (4 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 14, @05:07AM (#509359) Journal
          Funny how bad the arguments against this pipeline are. I'll take your complaint seriously when you take the many benefits of the pipeline seriously.

          One thing that repeatedly gets ignored by the anti-pipeline side is that the pipeline owners played by the rules when constructing and now operating the pipeline. The Standing Rock reservation has a right to demand and see to it via lawsuits that those upstream from it obey existing and future law and regulation. It and its residents has the right to protest for any reason even if the pipeline owners are legally complying with all law and regulation. But it doesn't have the right to control what is done upstream from the reservation.

          In order for the pipeline to be built and used, it will add risk to someone's water supply and this route drew the short straw (perhaps, let us note, with the deliberate contrivance of the Obama administration which decided the actual route through federal land!). Sure, it's unfair, but it's not that unfair.

          My view is that having rules and following them is a much better approach to this than touchie feelie ethnic debt.
          • (Score: 2) by jasassin on Sunday May 14, @06:38AM (1 child)

            by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Sunday May 14, @06:38AM (#509377) Journal

            It and its residents has the right to protest for any reason even if the pipeline owners are legally complying with all law and regulation.

            Tell that to all the Native Americans that were drug out of the protest and arrested. I live in Sioux Falls South Dakota, I witnessed this happening. You are one of them. I don't need a pair of patented Hoffman lenses to see you.

            --
            jasassin@gmail.com Key fingerprint = 0644 173D 8EED AB73 C2A6 B363 8A70 579B B6A7 02CA
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday May 14, @08:05AM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 14, @08:05AM (#509389) Journal

              Tell that to all the Native Americans that were drug out of the protest and arrested.

              The right to protest doesn't give you the right to trespass.

              I live in Sioux Falls South Dakota, I witnessed this happening.

              So what? I witnessed it happening on YouTube. Witnessing something doesn't make it right.

              You are one of them. I don't need a pair of patented Hoffman lenses to see you.

              So you're now partitioning the world into those who agree with you and the enemy. Strong indication that you are wrong.

          • (Score: 2) by jasassin on Sunday May 14, @06:49AM (1 child)

            by jasassin (3566) <jasassin@gmail.com> on Sunday May 14, @06:49AM (#509381) Journal

            Please tell me the benefits of this pipeline. 30 maintenance jobs. Hmmm.. All the oil exported from the gulf to be shipped to China for refinery. Oh please enlighten me.

            --
            jasassin@gmail.com Key fingerprint = 0644 173D 8EED AB73 C2A6 B363 8A70 579B B6A7 02CA
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday May 14, @08:29AM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 14, @08:29AM (#509393) Journal

              Please tell me the benefits of this pipeline. 30 maintenance jobs. Hmmm.. All the oil exported from the gulf to be shipped to China for refinery. Oh please enlighten me.

              Let's consider these really obvious benefits which you apparently can't see. First, the oil didn't magically come out of the ground. There are plenty of jobs involved in pulling it out of the ground which are being supported here. IIRC, we're looking at increasing the oil shipped out of the Dakota region by about 50%. Second, there's nothing magical about this oil that requires it to be shipped to China to be refined. In fact, the whole point of shipping it to the Gulf Coast as opposed to shipping it to the West Coast is to take advantage of the infrastructure and markets there, such as refineries and the biggest developed world market for oil. Third, to continue on the previous observation, the whole China export propaganda is completely unfounded. It is interesting how when I google around, I see so many unsubstantiated assertions without even the slightest attempt at justification.

              Fourth, even if it were precisely as you say, that would be bettering the lives of a billion Chinese and supporting a global trade network - people don't move oil around just because they hate Mother Earth.

  • (Score: 2) by requerdanos on Sunday May 14, @01:11PM

    by requerdanos (5997) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 14, @01:11PM (#509443) Journal

    The spill occurred less than 110 miles from Lake Oahe

    That's pretty much far enough away to have no correlation at all. There's over 38000 square miles [wolframalpha.com] (over 98000 km^2) "less than 110 miles away from Lake Oahe". For perspective, that's over 1/4 the area of Germany. Yet we've got at least one reactionary above, bad at math, erroneously concluding that...

    This is near native Americans water supply.

    No, it isn't.

  • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Monday May 15, @01:31PM (3 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 15, @01:31PM (#509998) Journal

    I support good environmental stewardship; I have been an active member of the Sierra Club all my adult life. The Dakota Access Pipeline controversy is not one I can get excited about, because there is more than a little bit of hypocrisy, NIMBY-ism, and poor-me to it.

    Hypocrisy, because none of those people protesting are out there banging on about ditching their ICEs for EVs, or dropping coal, oil, and natgas for solar/wind. No, they're perfectly happy to gad about town in their Ford F150s, bitching about the price of gas. They never seem to make the connection that the dinosaurs they're burning up in their lumbering machines have to come out of the ground somewhere, and be taken somewhere else where it can be refined into a more usable state.

    That brings me to the NIMBY aspect, because said dinosaurs are being pulled out of the ground in their neighbor's land in North Dakota. Because there has been no pipeline they have had to transport the oil by tanker truck and railcar, and there have been huge spills because of the vagaries of doing that. None of those people in South Dakota seem to give a good goddamn that the high prairie to their north is drowning in sticky oil spills because they're blocking the damn pipeline. No, it only matters because it's happening to them, no matter if the greater harm in North Dakota can be avoided.

    So it's a lot of "Poor, poor me" handwringing that we're supposed to care about because they're Indians, who are once again being victimized by the bad, bad, evil white people. And not just Indians, but the photogenic, popular Indians, because the non-photogenic, non-popular Mandans that nobody's ever heard of, whose Ft Berthold Reservation [nd.gov] is actually smack-dab in the middle of the Bakken Formation [headwaterseconomics.org] where those spills (one upstream from them was 840,000 gallons of oil) are happening. No, fuck those people because they're stupid enough to not have a PR agency and DC lobbying firm on retainer like the Sioux do.

    Lastly, the land they're crossing is not bad land, but we're also not talking about the Amazon basin, the Malagasy highlands, or some other hotbed of bio-diversity here. It's not the Black Hills or the Badlands, either. You can grow hay. Some magpies might fly over the vast acreage and settle on refuse. Your cousin Bob might have some ponies. The hardcore crazy dude everyone shies away from at community meetings might keep a bison or two. Biologists from Bonn University are not clamoring to fly half-way across the world to sit on a rise and inventory the ten thousand species of the high Dakota plains. They're not. And while it's never good to spill oil, if you're gonna insist on using it and will occasionally spill it then the Dakota plains are about the best place to spill it, ecologically speaking. It's for that reason, incidentally, that the US government placed its vast constellations of nuclear missile silos there, because if they got hit in a Soviet retaliatory strike, the country as a whole wouldn't be losing that much.

    The whole thing feels like a PR exercise designed to fleece more money in donations from the rubes and credulous for lobbyists, lawyers, and PR flacks (on both sides of the issue) in DC.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 2) by edIII on Monday May 15, @10:38PM (2 children)

      by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 15, @10:38PM (#510265)

      I support good environmental stewardship; I have been an active member of the Sierra Club all my adult life. The Dakota Access Pipeline controversy is not one I can get excited about, because there is more than a little bit of hypocrisy, NIMBY-ism, and poor-me to it.

      Noted.

      Hypocrisy, because none of those people protesting are out there banging on about ditching their ICEs for EVs, or dropping coal, oil, and natgas for solar/wind. No, they're perfectly happy to gad about town in their Ford F150s, bitching about the price of gas. They never seem to make the connection that the dinosaurs they're burning up in their lumbering machines have to come out of the ground somewhere, and be taken somewhere else where it can be refined into a more usable state.

      I don't think that is helping, but your point is taken. As one of the protestors though, I've ditched ICE for EVs... TWICE at great expense to myself. I was an early adopter for the primary reason to help EVs in the market succeed. While I understand what you are saying, that can be applied to almost all protesting and movements right now. Yes, there is some hypocrisy.

      That brings me to the NIMBY aspect, because said dinosaurs are being pulled out of the ground in their neighbor's land in North Dakota. Because there has been no pipeline they have had to transport the oil by tanker truck and railcar, and there have been huge spills because of the vagaries of doing that. None of those people in South Dakota seem to give a good goddamn that the high prairie to their north is drowning in sticky oil spills because they're blocking the damn pipeline. No, it only matters because it's happening to them, no matter if the greater harm in North Dakota can be avoided.

      Pipelines are not safer. With an oil tanker there is a finite amount of oil to spill, and the same is true with the railcar. Without irises and proper emergency routines, an oil pipeline can lose orders of magnitude greater oil into the environment. You cannot compare the environmental disaster of railcars versus pipelines.

      That being said, pipelines *might* be safer if they actually took some of the measures they talk about, and then published the diagnostics and values to the state each night which can be publicly reviewed. We already collect quite a bit of oil and gas data that is publicly available for transparency purposes. The interesting stuff is still of course trade secret and a National Security matter.

      They don't do what they say they will do, or even what they can do. There are companies that specialize in protecting the pipes and go on, and on, and on, about the high tech MRI they do on the pipelines and how can they can tell when something is going to go wrong. Problem is that this tech costs money and you and me damn well fucking know what happens when executive hell bound scum needs to decide between profits and what they should be doing about things that *might* happen. Unless it is 100% guaranteed to happen, those pieces of shit won't do ANYTHING.

      People who wonder why we need so many damn regulations need to look at the behavior and morally bankrupt culture of the Owning Class and the executives.

      In REALITY, pipelines are not safer. Only on paper, and only in a world where people are more like Federation citizens.

      So it's a lot of "Poor, poor me" handwringing that we're supposed to care about because they're Indians, who are once again being victimized by the bad, bad, evil white people. And not just Indians, but the photogenic, popular Indians, because the non-photogenic, non-popular Mandans that nobody's ever heard of, whose Ft Berthold Reservation is actually smack-dab in the middle of the Bakken Formation where those spills (one upstream from them was 840,000 gallons of oil) are happening. No, fuck those people because they're stupid enough to not have a PR agency and DC lobbying firm on retainer like the Sioux do.

      You have a good point. I didn't know about these people, nor have I heard anything before. I do care though, and I support whatever efforts they make towards proper restitution and good stewardship of the land.

      Lastly, the land they're crossing is not bad land, but we're also not talking about the Amazon basin, the Malagasy highlands, or some other hotbed of bio-diversity here. It's not the Black Hills or the Badlands, either. You can grow hay. Some magpies might fly over the vast acreage and settle on refuse. Your cousin Bob might have some ponies. The hardcore crazy dude everyone shies away from at community meetings might keep a bison or two. Biologists from Bonn University are not clamoring to fly half-way across the world to sit on a rise and inventory the ten thousand species of the high Dakota plains. They're not. And while it's never good to spill oil, if you're gonna insist on using it and will occasionally spill it then the Dakota plains are about the best place to spill it, ecologically speaking. It's for that reason, incidentally, that the US government placed its vast constellations of nuclear missile silos there, because if they got hit in a Soviet retaliatory strike, the country as a whole wouldn't be losing that much.

      Irrelevant. It's sovereign land from what I understand, and governed by treaties the U.S made with the Sioux. You can claim NIMBY just fine, but the Sioux still have ironclad rights to refuse it. The U.S has violated a treaty by doing what they did. Period.

      Also, the pipeline doesn't help anyone in the U.S! This is so that Canadians can sell their oil through us. Only some rich fuckers in the oil industry really get any benefit. It would be one thing if this was a huge economic boon to the area and country, worth the risks of a pipeline, but it isn't.

      The whole thing feels like a PR exercise designed to fleece more money in donations from the rubes and credulous for lobbyists, lawyers, and PR flacks (on both sides of the issue) in DC.

      Ohh, everything is now. Populist rage and dissent is now used to get people upset at an email, take a fake survey that leads the reader to conclusions, and then at the end.... "Oh, boy, are you as pissed as we are?! Gimme $5 and we can continue to be pissed together". The surveys are not even written to make sense, and sometimes the answers don't even match the question!

      All of that being said, the Sioux still deserve support, and that pipeline needs to be destroyed. Ohhh, and this thing wasn't a leak, or anything that can be used against the evil scum that own DAPL either. 84 gallons is a fucking joke. That is already operationally accounted for if it were a pumping station. "Zero environmental impact". I believe them. I've seen worse laying on the ground while drilling a well. Does any one of them know what a 55 gallon barrel looks like? This wasn't even two of them, and I've seen the ground around a well being drilled having at least 100-200 gallons of oil spilled for dozens of feet around it. You lose MORE oil just drilling a successful oil well and capping it :)

      • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday May 16, @10:53AM (1 child)

        by Phoenix666 (552) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 16, @10:53AM (#510476) Journal

        I appreciate that you were protesting there. Few people on these things put their money where their mouth is. It's also admirable that you practice what you preach by eliminating your personal consumption of fossil fuels.

        "Violating a treaty with the sovereign Sioux," though, is not something to get the blood pumping. If a person wanted to get upset about treaties the US has violated lately, I'd say the one banning torture would rank much higher. Nobody cares how many treaties the US govt has broken with Indians. It's sad, but it's a historical fact. Getting bent out of shape about it now is like getting upset that people drive faster than the speed limit--technically you're right, but nobody cares.

        Worrying about oil spills in western North Dakota and eastern South Dakota, also, is nothing to get worked up about. That part of South Dakota is not terrible, but it's still pretty marginal land. And the part of North Dakota that is is the most godawful worthless stretch of nothing I've ever been to on Earth. An oil spill would give you something, dear god gimme anything, to look at there. It's the one place for millions of square miles that you're actually grateful for the endless stream of billboards for Wall Drug, because they give you a respite from having to look at the scenery.

        And if it's a matter of sticking it to the Man, we'd all be much better off disintermediating their systems of control than wasting time and energy on the cynical PR exercise this is.

        --
        Washington DC delenda est.
        • (Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday May 16, @09:51PM

          by edIII (791) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday May 16, @09:51PM (#510781)

          "Violating a treaty with the sovereign Sioux," though, is not something to get the blood pumping. If a person wanted to get upset about treaties the US has violated lately, I'd say the one banning torture would rank much higher. Nobody cares how many treaties the US govt has broken with Indians. It's sad, but it's a historical fact. Getting bent out of shape about it now is like getting upset that people drive faster than the speed limit--technically you're right, but nobody cares

          Actually, somebody does really care and get upset about it. John McCain, although perhaps the other way.

          The information I have about treaties, sovereignty, and the difficulty it places on the U.S government comes directly from him and his lamentations about dealing with border security and the Native American Indians that in actuality control 70 miles of the South Western border where the wall will go. It was McCain lamenting about how hard it was, and still is, to negotiate or get anything done. Those Native American Indians stoutly refuse all previous attempts at walls almost solely based on good stewardship of the land. McCain still supports the Native American Indians though explicitly on the grounds that the U.S must preserve its honor, and therefore honor their treaties. I don't like his security hawk bullshit, but I can greatly appreciate him for that.

          Other than that, I can see your point about how it's not the battle to pick. Still, it's my battle to pick on a personal level.

          And if it's a matter of sticking it to the Man, we'd all be much better off disintermediating their systems of control than wasting time and energy on the cynical PR exercise this is.

          That is an excellent point, although I disagree with the level of cynicism. Also one of the reasons I get so worked up about it, is that Middle Class is not benefiting whatsoever from it, and neither is the poor. Only the Koch brothers are really seeing any money out of this. As far as I'm concerned, this is their personal pork barrel project that they are using corrupt government to ram down our throats.

          Fighting the man in this case also does mean fighting the Koch brothers and their self-serving anti-American ways. Anytime I can fight the Owning Class, I do.

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