Google has taken a major step toward turning Android into a complete operating system for cars that doesn't require the use of a phone. The company announced partnerships with Audi and Volvo today, ahead of this week's I/O developer's conference, that will see those carmakers build new branded infotainment systems using Android 7.0 Nougat.
The manufacturer-tweaked versions of Google's operating system will power the cars' main touchscreen displays, as well as the digital dashboards behind the steering wheel. They will add new services like Google Assistant to the apps and integrations already available on Android Auto. But Android will now also control basic functions like heating and cooling, seat position, or opening and closing the windows. (It won't go as far as controlling critical safety systems like brakes, though, according to Google.) Volvo says it plans to launch its Android on new models within two years, while Audi will show its version off in the new Audi Q8 Sport concept.
Audi is owned by the Volkswagen Group based in Germany. Since the 2010 sale by Ford Motor Company, Volvo Cars has been owned by Geely, a Chinese automotive manufacturer.
Source: The Verge
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:26AM (2 children)
...and Android doesn't crash much.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:43AM (1 child)
Well, not to throw out a false dichotomy, but the latest analysis shows it crashes less than iOS, or the apps do, anyway. I'd prefer it not be running engine controls though, as that system certainly shouldn't have any contact with the "infotainment" system.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday May 16 2017, @12:15PM
It won't control the engine but you can be sure it will have a CAN interface right to the various ECU's.
(Score: 3, Funny) by coolgopher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:32AM (9 children)
From an optimists point of view, maybe this will be a boon for Android's stability. Car QA is typically vastly superior to that of handset manufacturers.
From a pessimists point of view, maybe this will be terrible for the car's stability.
From a grumpy old guy's point of view, maybe this will keep the new cars off my lawn!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:00AM (7 children)
Is Google bothering to turn Android into a real-time OS? Cars use QNX for a reason. But sure who gives a fuck. Not the billionaires at Google. We have an overabundance of worthless proles. Let's just rig cars to have lots of convenient accidents. Kill the proles!
(Score: 1) by anubi on Tuesday May 16 2017, @12:18PM (6 children)
From TFA:
It behooves me as to why anyone would make the braking or steering any more complex than absolutely necessary.
I can see power assist, but I sure feel a helluva lot more comfortable knowing there is a hard physical link to the control actuator for the brake and steering.
I can see everything else routing through something that may possibly hiccup. But not the brakes or steering.
I am building a controller for my van. I am routing everything through it. Except the brakes and steering.
If I can't get the van started, or if it runs poorly, that's just an annoyance. If I have the van in motion and I lose control of it, that is a disaster.
All it takes is one hint the brakes are failing, and I call the tow truck. As far as the steering goes, I want to see that big steel shaft running down to the rack-and-pinion gearing. I want the assurance that the steering assembly is a helluva lot stronger than I am.
I know the other side of it is that same steel shaft may well impale me. But that's a risk I am willing to take for the assurance I am not going to lose my ability to steer this thing.
I can think of few things more terrifying than being in a moving vehicle out of control.
I guess what I am trying to say is don't mess with the brakes or steering. Even if its QNX or uCOS-III.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by riT-k0MA on Tuesday May 16 2017, @02:17PM
I know the other side of it is that same steel shaft may well impale me. But that's a risk I am willing to take for the assurance I am not going to lose my ability to steer this thing.
A modern steering wheel shaft is hollow and is designed to collapse (Slide) into itself in order to prevent this.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:08PM (1 child)
well, i hope you open source your stuff so maybe one day we'll all be able to build open source vehicles. use the vbloclk chain to buy and sell parts made at home/neighborhood shops.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:45AM
I will definitely be open-sourcing the whole architecture. Its all built on Arduino. Linked to various other things, such as Nextion HMI and HobbyTronics Propeller based VGA driver boards. I have to design and construct all the other interface boards, which run all the sensor and control interfacing. Even its power isolator design is included, as vehicle power can be quite nasty, and I can't have it damaging or interfering with the processor.
My changes are form factors and interface standards.
To not open source this thing will condemn all of my efforts to oblivion. As it is designed to do things simply, reliably, cheaply, trustworthy.
It is NOT designed to make money by locking in the customer and going behind his back, or supporting artificial monopolies.
My main constrictor right now is time. Being I am running on retirement income, I can devote full time to this, but I cannot hire anyone else. I am leery of doing this for a businessman, as my experience is they rank the guy who has the leadership skill to tell the guy who can do it not to do it, more than they rank the guy who does it. I need to keep enough capital to hire the diesel mechanic who is helping me implement this thing.
Its my bucket list thing. Probably the last thing I will do.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:21AM (2 children)
I behooves me to point out that you appear to have a wrong definition of "behoove".
(Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:47AM (1 child)
You are right... I had to go look up the meaning of "behoove".
I had it wrong for 60 years. Thanks!
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by coolgopher on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:39AM
You're welcome! I'm glad you took in the positive spirit it was offered :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:29AM
From a grumpy old guy's point of view, maybe this will keep the new cars off my lawn!
Not if Google Maps tells them to drive there.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:50AM (4 children)
Will it come with phone-home functionality, thus constantly telling Google where the car is?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:15AM
Is it Android?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Caballo Negro on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:31AM
If I need a Google ID to use these cars, I won't be buying one (and my last three cars have been Audis).
(Score: 2, Informative) by corey on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:09PM (1 child)
If it's like my new Sony TV, it will. I've blocked traffic from it in my firewall box and even with the TV off for hours, its still hammering my firewall with connection attempts to google and other places.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:46AM
Which proves that the TV is not off. If it were off, it couldn't hammer your firewall with anything.
The simplest way to ensure that the TV really is off is to disconnect its power.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:29AM (24 children)
So a car would use an OS which, basically, kills every process if it feels like it on sight? That sounds dangerous.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:29AM (23 children)
It might be too much to expect us Soylentils to RTFA, but reading the summary really isn't so hard.
It won't go as far as controlling critical safety systems like brakes, though, according to Google.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:31AM
Make better headlines then.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:07AM
Oh i have no doubt it will be embedded just enough to lock in the unit, the slow speed of car tech catchup means the usb plug era will be all too short.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:34AM (20 children)
If it is controlling what is seen on the dashboard or cruise control then it is controlling something very critical.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:21AM
what is seen on the dashboard
In-dash porn? Come to papa!
(Score: 3, Informative) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday May 16 2017, @01:37PM (18 children)
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:58PM (4 children)
> Run as fast as you can.
Do I have to follow Hollywood straight-line protocols, or can I run away from a car by turning behind obstacles?
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:31PM (3 children)
I'd avoid the straight-line protocols. Especially the horror film "run until you trip and desperately try to crawl to safety when you can just get the fuck back up and keep running" routine.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:36PM (1 child)
I'd just go for "stand there until Hero grabs you out of the way at the last second", but the gender reassignment surgery has a long recovery...
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:18PM
Ah, a double edged sword.
(Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 19 2017, @08:23AM
*crawl backwards in a face-up position.
One of cinema's more idiotic tropes.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:56AM (12 children)
Lordtaw: What you say about separating the HMI from the process control is so right.
I'll toss this out as how I am designing something the way I think it should be designed. As you probably know, I just bought a big old diesel van off of Craigslist and am making it a project vehicle out of it.
The HMI I am using for my van controllers ( actually I am using three of 'em in slave mode - as a terminal ) are NEXTION HMI's [itead.cc]. Their processor is far more powerful than the ATMEL 328's I am using for the transmission controller and the user interface controller which drives the Nextions.
The dash will be reminiscent of the HAL-9000 from "2001: A Space Odessey" when running, with various engine parameters, speed, fuel, etc being displayed.
I also have serial data streaming out of each module's RS232 port in the proper format for Hobbytronics Serial VGA [hobbytronics.co.uk] so that a VGA monitor can simply be plugged into a controller and one will get constant updates as to what the module is seeing and doing.
The actual transmission controller is critical, so its standalone. I cannot accept the risk of hangups in some display routine fouling it up. I may be taking this van far from convenient service locations, and I simply cannot risk having any failures. Everything is designed to fall back to manual mode if need be, and if necessary I can control the transmission from a bank of toggle switches if it comes to that.
I think of it as a "survival vehicle", as in what could I keep working no matter what happens, including a nuclear EMI assault. The only PN junctions that I have not made bypassable are the alternator diodes. Everything else is there for display/diagnostic purposes. Any systems failure will mostly result in my having to do what the computer would have done. Little things like measuring power flows for diagnosing wiring faults, measuring temperatures and pressures and correlating to historical profiles, alarming on deviations, very precisely calculating fuel usage ( mechanical injection pump.... I count the squirts and how much fuel per squirt ) , very precisely measuring distance ( 120 teeth on the differential tone ring. I count 'em. C++ long ) , and of course, optimizing shift points for the transmission, along with little things like letting me adjust on the fly for various towing conditions, or if I want the engine to coast or help me brake.
The other thing the computer will help me do is secure the vehicle, so I can leave the engine running on a cold day ( diesels HATE cold starts ) without fear of anyone driving it off, using those Wiegand type keyboard/RFID pads to enable the vehicle, as well as all sorts of surprises in store for anyone who decides to steal this thing. I can make this thing malfunction in the most peculiar ways, and they'll never know where its coming from. I will probably "log on" to the vehicle computer via morse code in order to start the thing.
I will be programming it to also talk to me in morse. Just cause I can, and it will discourage others from borrowing it.
Pure observation of human behaviour... I have never known anyone who knew morse code to be a thief. Not to say it does not exist, but the probability of those who do know morse code are highly unlikely to be the ones I am trying to guard against.
All the morse and user screening is done through the HMI interface processor.
The other controller, the process controller, is at the heart of the whole thing. It is quite simple. It has to be.
If worse comes to worse, I know how to disassemble the whole processor stack, layer by layer, and go all the way back to mechanical switches if need be. They are all independent.
I am not designing this for someone else. I am designing it for ME. Its what I would want if I were the one whose life depended on whether or not it worked.
Definitely not a "business-grade" system full of back doors and remote exploits.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:28PM (11 children)
Interesting project. I'm working on something similar.
I have a 1961 Mack B61 truck. Since I was a kid I loved trucks and went to shows and all that until I bought my own. I like the older iron for the reasons you stated, all mechanical. Hell the injection pump doesn't even have a fuel cut off solenoid, instead a cable runs from a stop leve on the injection pump to an engine stop knob you pull out. You could remove the entire electrical system and that truck would still run drive and stop as nothing is electrical save for the starter motor, heater blower, and the lights. Even the wiper motor is air driven from the air brake system which also has ZERO electrical control save for the stop light switch which only operates the brake lights. I could switch the engine to an air start (I have a few old air starters from IR and Gali) and remove the need for electrical starting. My only gripe with that setup is the large air tank needed and limited cranking capacity. Not good for cold climates.
I'm keeping the entire truck as stock as possible though, I do want to add some smarts to the truck. I'm thinking of building an ultra capacitor starter and pairing it with one or two deep cycle marine batteries as the truck does a lot of sitting. I have the caps, 18x Ioxus 3000F @ 2.7V for a total of 1500F @ 16.2V. Still working on the charger design, would be a simple switching charger with a small uc for switching control as well as cell monitoring. I'm thinking of using the CAN bus and J1939 or even CANopen or keep it simple and use RS485 and modbus. Be nice to export a bunch of values such as charge voltage, charge current, starter current, and fault monitoring.
I'd also like to log things like engine hours, average speed, fuel consumption, and possibly gears used. For fuel totalizing I'd have to log both the fuel pulled by the injection pump and the return line and record the difference. For speed monitoring I'm thinking about a simple inductive sensor counting teeth on... something. I could also use an analog tachometer or somehow piggyback off the current speedometer. I'm also thinking about antitheft too. Probably a fuel cutoff valve paired with an ignition disable hidden away in the engine compartment and possibly a third disable mechanism.
If I used an HMI i'd probably go with a pi display in a plastic box. Cheap and simple and I could use existing HMI pi projects. But for now I'm still on the mechanical restoration phase and I'm busy getting things operating mechanically and getting the truck rolling again.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @06:30AM (3 children)
Those old Mack trucks. Built to last. I love the pure simplicity / robustness of these old beasts.
Mine is an old Ford 7.3L IDI. No turbo. E4OD transmission. Like you, I am keeping the base powertrain stock as can be, but gussying up the display/dash as a lot of the things I want to have are either missing or nonfunctional. You probably have the same situation in your truck. A lot of the dashboard stuff is old and has been exposed to the elements. Besides, there are a lot of new tricks I want to teach this old dog. I have driven a manual all my life, and being used to making the decision as to what gear I should be in, I would still like to have the final say in the matter. I want overrides on whether I want to lock to torque converter or not. Same for the coast clutch sprag lock.
I am also disappointed in having no tach or exhaust gas temperature gauges in this thing. I would also love to have a real water temp gauge, real coolant pressure gauge, real oil temp gauge, and real oil pressure gauge instead of the idiot switches that came stock. I would also love to have my transmission oil temperature and line pressure shown. I want real analog linear pressure transducers and type K thermocouples watching everything so I can get plenty of advance warning if something is going amiss.
Being shown I've lost my coolant at the same time the engine seizes is not all that useful to me. On my car, the idjit that designed the coolant sensor put it at the top of the radiator. When I had a real problem, there was no water in the radiator to trip it. I screwed up the engine in my car that way. I did not know until the engine started acting funny and I pulled over to find out why. That's why I want to know the coolant pressure and oil temperature.
I'm sure you know exactly what I mean. I simply hate it when crap like that happens.
I have worked with instrumentation all my life. Like you, I know exactly what I want and how to implement it. And that's why I want it programmable. By me. Personally. To do this, I have to build my own controller. Nobody makes anything close to what I want. Arduino and Raspberry PI are the closest. I chose the ATMEL as I will be going as far as personally laying out all the PCB for the processors and interfaces. It will have substantial memory for tables of historical profiles of expected pressures and temperatures, and if any deviate, I want my HMI to show it.
I have had things like stuck thermostats and leaky hoses cause me humongous problems as by the time my primitive instrumentation detected it, the engine had already suffered irreversible damage. No more. I want this thing instrumented so I know if something goes amiss long before I hear the engine complaining over it.
You may want to take advantage of using your fuel injection pump as a metering pump, as its kinda tricky to monitor diesel fuel flow rates accurately. I was looking at the same thing, as I put in electric lift pump ( Carter P-4070 ) to make priming the fuel system easier as well as give me an electrical control I could shut down if I were trying to screw up a theft attempt. Being mine has a stock automatic transmission, it came with a throttle position sensor ( ummm "Fuel Injecton Position Lever?" - Diesels always run throttle wide open and lean ). I can use that sensor to tell me how much fuel per squirt, I know I get four squirts per engine revolution. I bought some fuel flow sensors from China [aliexpress.com], but with all the variables ( cold fuel, hot fuel, and trying to take the difference ), I thought I was setting myself up for endless calibration. I settled on using a VR sensor counting gear teeth on the engine, and having the sensor interrupt the processor... which deducts the appropriate size of squirt from the tank according to TPS. There is another VR sensor mounted on the differential. I want to eventually figure out the exact fractional ration of the transmission, so I can count the engine gear teeth, and compare it to the amount of differential teeth , and know exactly how much slippage is taking place across the torque converter, or if I am having any band slippage at all in the transmission. If I have that thing locked, I should have an exact ratio of teeth passing each VR. If I know I am having slippage issues, I want to know about it immediately before it takes the transmission out.
Last but not least, I want to alter this thing enough so if anyone else tries to drive it, he won't know how. I have this fear that if the events ( however unlikely ) transpire that this van is designed for, I don't want some thug simply driving off with it because he could wag a gun in my face. I want to make it capable of being such a pain in the ass that he will have to rewire the whole thing before he can get any use out of it. Thereby making it a lot easier on him if he just takes someone else's stuff. Since I have control of the fuel solenoid on the injector pump, the fuel pump itself, and the transmission solenoids, I can cause a lot of nasty problems for a thief. Things like deliberately causing air to get sucked into the injector pump by shutting down the lift pump. Now the thief has to spend about a half-hour or so bleeding the air out of the injectors before the engine will start. Then he's gonna have the problem of getting the transmission to work right.
I have noted a lot of microwave human presence sensors becoming available. I want to use these to detect if anyone is even *near* my van, and to wake up the electronics enough to verify whether a threat is sensed, or if its just me. I found some neat little keyboard/RFID readers that I can program to make operations easier for me, but make it necessary for a full vetting if the scanner cannot see the correct RFID code come back.
There are cellular telephone interfaces out there which know exactly where they are at all times ( actually Google does the hard work ), and hook them up so the van looks like a cellphone to the phone company. I can only talk and text to it, like a cheap phone, or can call it on a smartphone and find out exactly where it is... you know... Google's Blue Dot. I leave it to your imagination what can be done with a text interface and a processor.
With my processor in control, I can visit a diner when its really cold outside, put it in Park, leave the engine running even though the ignition lock is OFF, lock up, and eat, knowing even if a thief breaks the glass out of the door, gets in, and tries to drive off, the instant he does anything, the engine is going to die. Another thing is to lockout the starter circuit if the engine is running. I occasionally do stupid things and I want my processor to watch my back. With that Mack truck engine, I know you know exactly what I mean about cold diesels. Mine is quite soddish when cold fuel is injected. Quite poor fuel usage... I get a lot of soot. Yours is a lot bigger, and that situation is probably amplified as well.
I am just getting started on this thing... kinda where you are as well. Maybe I can touch base with you from time to time and exchange war stories on whats going on. I already know this thing is going to take me years to build.
I know this is a long post, but its posted on a dated story. I'll leave the post here so search engines can find it for anyone else interested in this kind of thing. This is probably something I should have posted in the Diesel Truck forums, like Oilburners.com ... but I have only lurked there so far until I get up to speed on what those guys are doing.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Thursday May 18 2017, @03:23PM (2 children)
My favorite coolant problem was on my old 95 Tahoe. The heater core ran to a rubber hose to an aluminum hard line then to a quick connect that was made of zinc and screwed into the intake manifold which was made of aluminum. Galvanic corrosion ate that up. You used to hear about radiator hoses blowing. Everything in that coolant system broke save for the damn hoses. Replaced the radiator, water pump, the aforementioned zinc coupling, the heater core bypass valve, and the thermostat. Must have been the best radiator hoses ever built.
Good info on the fuel monitoring. The fuel monitoring certainly does sound tricky. Currently the truck has a mechanical pump which bolts to the side of the injection pump which also has the primer handle. The primer leaks a little so I think the pump is sucking air. After the engine fires, it idles smooth for a few seconds and then begins to hunt with the RPM dipping until it nearly stalls and then back up to idle. I have considered switching to an electric pump. But this is more a show truck and occasional weekend driver so stock is somewhat important.
As for the supercap charger, I was thinking of a half bridge into a choke and then off to the caps using a uc to watch the choke current and cell voltage and switch appropriately. I'd use the Atmel sam C21, plenty of analog stuff, 32bit arm, plus CAN. I have thought of a boost converter to possibly suck up whatever power is left in a dead battery but that's a little out of scope for me. I just want reliable starts and to reduce battery count from four to one or two. I have two battery boxes, both are nearly rusted out so I'd like to only need to buy one.
Everything would use simple micros tied to a pi with the pi display. It's a nearly open source HMI for under a $100 bucks. I could even use it for multimedia as well. Truck came with an old 8 track/AM/FM/CB radio that is really neat. Friend at work have me a bunch of old classic rock 8 tracks that I would pop in and listen to or play the radio. I kinda want to keep that. Thought of buying a small 4 channel amp, get some decent speakers and just hook the pi to that. Or a 3.5mm cord and just use my phone. I even thought it could also be a dash cam but the bandwidth of the pi IO is abysmal with no sata and just USB/SD. That or just use more pi's for different tasks.
The dash is all steel. Almost no plastic on that truck. Limits the amount of gauges so extra gauges I'd want like trans temp, pyrometer, rear diff temp, etc would all be on the pi display. Keep the dash original and go from there.
I like the sms interface idea. I thought of similar for location in case of theft. All I would do is text a command and the device would ping back the GPS coords every n seconds. Problem is that is security through obscurity and I'm not too keen on it. Anyone could see my GPS if they knew the number. Or I could hard code to only respond to my number. That or figure out a simple enough encryption scheme but that complicates everything. I'd certainly love to have a text based sms command interface. START, STOP, UNLOCK, LOCK, GPS, etc. would be neat to have.
It's funny how long this stuff takes. I've seen guys who own big shops for their business and they turn around a truck in just a few months. I saw one post where they took a Mack B tractor, completely tore it down, replaced the old Mack diesel with an 80's mechanical International DT466 with Allison from a school bus and built a gooseneck hauler body out of an old fire truck body. Custom seats and interior, the works. Think it took them 5 or 6 months. It's been 5 or 6 years for me and I'm now just really starting to get into it as money and time have been issues in the past.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Friday May 19 2017, @07:24AM (1 child)
Thanks. Now I don't feel so lousy for how long this thing is taking me.
I have been taking my time on this for the very same reasons. I do everything myself cause I flat do not have the money to hire it out, and even if I did, I have the limitation that I have to understand exactly what I am doing and what to do next, given what I know now. Things may change as I become more knowledgeable and I may discover better ways to do it.
I've had the van for about a year now - and have mostly studied all the wiring diagrams to get comfortable with digging into it. I have downloaded everything I could find on its E4OD transmission, and how to control it. I was thinking of a commercial aftermarket controller, ( Baumann Engineering Quick-4 box ), but the more I thought of it, I would just as soon "roll my own" so I can have exactly what I want.
I considered whether one or two quite powerful controllers ( raspberry PI, ARM, or ColdFire ( uCOS-III)) or many little processors. I chose the latter because I wanted to build this thing up in stages, so that the van would be operable even if I had no computer at all in it... just running the transmission manual mode from a H-type switch I salvaged from a trashed commercial video arcade game - and a couple of toggle switches for the coast and converter lockup clutches.
Those "propeller" chips from Parallax look particularly intriguing. Eight CPU cores in those things. They look ideal for handling a lot of my I/O stuff, where I can dedicate a CPU core for a specific task and not worry about interrupt latentcies. There are some things I want to explore, like knowing 106 teeth pass the engine VR sensor for every two revolutions... knowing this exact count, I want to time the passing of the teeth so I can correlate each cylinder's contribution to total engine speed, so any problems developing in a cylinder will show up as that cylinder not "pulling its weight" during its time to dump its energy to the crankshaft. During normal operation, I would see a bar chart on one of the HMI panels, and all eight bars should be the same height. An erratic bar would indicate to me if a particular cylinder was having problems.
There are so many little things I would love to try out on that van. But I don't want to sacrifice any reliability. So all my little toys will have to be queryable, but if they are not there, no big deal. The show goes on.
I figured I would probably have several I2C and probably two SPI busses ( thermocouples ) running, but no CAN bus. Mostly ignorance, I suppose. I'm kinda afraid of any single point of failure if anything shorted out. I want what's left to help me troubleshoot what went wrong. A lot of interface chips I want to use are I2C. You know, things like ADS7828 ADC chips. I will be running quite a few current sensors through 4051-type multiplexers into these, so I can verify that after I have switched a circuit ON, it will be drawing the correct amount of current. There are a few conditions of which solenoids I turn on and off in the transmission that have serious mechanical consequences if switched improperly, and I want to avoid that at all costs. If I am doing it with switches, I will use extra contacts on the switches and lockout relays to disallow the disastrous states, but for the computer, I want my interface reporting back that the called for solenoids are indeed receiving the current they were switched for.
These little Hall-Effect sensors [aliexpress.com] look really handy for sensing lines without affecting the reliability of the sensed circuit. Those are unusually accurate sensors - not made like most hall effect devices. I am itching to use them to monitor all the current draws on the van so I can quickly diagnose failed circuits. Or make damned sure all the main battery circuits have been properly shut down before I leave the vehicle.
God knows how many times we have arrived at a dead vehicle because something did not turn off properly. One of my computer's jobs will be to make damm sure everything is put to bed before giving me the all-clear that its OK to walk away.
Another thing I want to have is quite a few K-type thermocouples [aliexpress.com] placed around the exhaust ports, in the oil, in the coolant, and in the transmission. They are cheap, and I can multiplex as many as I want. I already have local 4 line x 20 character LCD displays on my stuff, so I can use their four data lines for addressing a thermocouple, as I never update the LCD while reading a thermocouple, and the LCD does not care what its data lines do when its control lines are static. Each of my modules have local debug LCD sockets so during troubleshooting, I can just plug an LCD in and see what the module has to say.
Kinda funny the story about heater core, aluminum, and zinc. One would sure have thought the auto industry would have understood galvanic corrosion by now. But I can understand. I see so much "business-class" crap out there it nauseates me. When I say "business-class", I mean building the least-effort product someone else can be persuaded to buy. May be a pile of crap, but its new shiny crap, and many people buy on appearance, not necessarily substance. It comes back to bite them every time and they still do not learn. I am just as guilty at falling for it as anyone else too, and get quite pissed at myself when I discover how they pulled the wool over me each time.
I hear you on the steel dash. I have one too. That is why I am using three smaller Nextions instead of a larger panel. They will be going where the gauges are now. One will have stuff like engine pressures and temperatures, the center one will have speedo, tach, odometer, and the third will have the fuel statistics. The computer will keep track of oil change schedules, or when I pull into a gas station, I'll key in how much fuel I put in ( xx.xxx gallons ) to top off ( Arduino C++ INT resolves to 65.535 gallons max tank size ) so the computer can do fine trims on the constants which estimate fuel usage, how many miles to runout, instantaneous and long term MPG, etc.
I hope to make it a fun little project. And I would like to use it as a "resume" for someone who may want to retain me to help them with anything like it. I guess one of my main concerns is will I live long enough to complete it. Its gonna take me years to do this right. I would release stuff now, but I keep changing it. I keep figuring out better ways of doing things. Even little things like how to multiplex many things into simple Arduinos without running out of I/O pins. And I have so much more to learn.
I haven't even started on all the cosmetics yet. I don't want to mess with the "pretty stuff" until I have all the infrastructure in place. Then I will worry about how to dress it all up prim and proper.
Bet you get a chuckle out of all those car repair insurance ads warning about the threat of the check-engine light. That is one thing I am so glad I don't have to worry about. I will have everything BUT a check engine light.
I know you know exactly what I am saying - you are in the same boat!
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Friday May 19 2017, @02:40PM
Looks like you are solidifying a good plan. And I like the decision to move to a custom ECU for the transmission. I would consider 3rd party hardware only if it is open source. I want to know how it works and be able to fix it myself 5, 10 or maybe even 15 years down the road.
And good thinking on the hard wired interlocks. Any time I plan on building a machine upgrade here at work I always ensure there are actual safety relays used for interlocking things. Because no matter how good you think you are, you can make a mistake. An improperly sequenced valve or device can as you say be disastrous. I remember writing c code for a really neat PLC from CTC which sequenced the vacuum system on an old electron beam welder. It would work fine and then mis-cycle. Hmmmm, I went over my code again and again and it turns out I was overlooking the simplest of problems in a line of code for calculating vacuum pressure. Just a misplaced an operator which caused an overflow. After that correction it ran rock solid. Thankfully when I designed the relay system the PLC controlled, I interlocked the valve relays so the main valve for the diffusion pump could never open if the vent or roughing valves were open. That would introduce air into the hot diffusion pump which could burn up extremely expensive oil ($1000/Gallon). Didn't have that problem even though the controller code bugged out. I am also working on a motor-generator controller with a microcontroller but I am also adding on an external interlock circuit to ensure that if any rapid change in input occurs, the system will shut down. Right now I'm dealing with a 150kV power supply that is hard arcing due to runaway causing the voltage to go well above the 175kV maximum, possibly all the way to 300kV. The original controller was very well designed and simple (two op-amps and a power transistor stage) but it has no smarts when it comes to sudden feedback loss causing the output to take off until the overvoltage trips but by then the power supply is already going into over voltage and arcing which is damaging really expensive components ($11,000 200kV 0.1uF capacitor, and twelve $500 diode sticks.) An E-stop that is completely electromechanical which removes power and puts things into a safe off state is also a good idea depending on your system.
And as for multiple monitoring points, it was and still is common for many truckers to have 20 or even more gauges monitoring everything. Coolant temps, oil temps, pressures, transmission temp, differential temps, exhaust temps, and even voltages and current draw. They made money with their trucks and any small deviation in those gauges were reason enough to have a look at the problem area and check things before they got worse. Idiot lights are now the norm but they still add separate gauges to be proactive. Downtime is lost money.
Like I said before, don't worry about how long it will take you. I used to go to a truck show in Macungie PA every year, knew a bunch of guys there from a Mack forum and we would meet up. Few years back one guy asked me about my progress and I almost hated to say that it was near zero. They all shook their heads and one guy said "don't worry, most of us are in the same boat. It took me 8 years to get the money and time together before I even touch a single screw". Everyone chimed in and spoke of progress measured in years. I've known a few guys who had to give up and sell because of money problems.
One thing is for sure, it is quite easy to underestimate the amount of work needed. Once I bought the truck and started to work on a few minor things it quickly became apparent that a few summers of work was not going to be enough. It would take years. I just managed to remove the fifth wheel plate they previous owners installed. Probably weighed 800lbs and I had to lift it myself which required me to buy a new 2 ton engine hoist. More money. Though, it is pretty satisfying as you begin to make progress, even if it's taking the thing apart. Things like the old steel demount rims with 11R22.5 tires weigh nearly a hundred pounds each. Nothing is light or easy to maneuver. But with patience and the right tools I'll eventually get there.
And if that isn't bad enough, I also bought an old 4000 lb capacity forklift for scrap value a few years back that also needs a lot of work. I bought it to remove the engine (2500 lbs), transmission and axles. Forklift engine, a continental FY128 (I think), is so old it belongs in a museum and parts are as rare as hens teeth. Thankfully I am also doing work for forklift guys who are transitioning from fixing and buying/selling forklifts to small trash compactors. They are helping me find parts. I feel bad for them because they can't fix newer lifts as they need dealer only equipment. And they can't become dealers because there already exists a dealership network with the territory already carved up. So they are shut out of their own business thanks to proprietary bullshit and protectionism.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @07:06AM
Forgot to mention this, LordTaw... about your charger for the supercaps... you might want to consider winding your own output transformer so you can have six identical secondaries... one for each voltage tier of your six series'd supercapacitors?
My guess would be to go to a flyback topology and hammer away on the primary until you get the capacitors charged up. Your advantage would be that you can only transfer one "corefluxload" of energy per pulse. You pulse away until you've transferred enough energy to charge all the capacitors. The flyback topology is by nature self-equalizing as each secondary current flow is what is necessary to balance the voltage as set by its number of turns - which must be an integer. In the event of power transistor failure, the converter ceases to function, without ramming fault energy into the capacitor bank. You can also easily charge to 16.2 volts ( 2.7V per tier ) off the 13.8 volt vehicle bus voltage if you size your primary winding as such.
I am using a similar flyback topology to get the isolated power to run my controllers from vehicle power. Vehicle power can be nasty. By metering it through a magnetic core, I can take out stuff like alternator load dumps and inductive kickbacks from starter motors and A/C clutches. These kind of power surges take out semiconductors like bullets take out plate glass.
In this case, I would be tempted to get a huge ferrite core so I have lots of window space to put my secondary windings, just so I know nothing is cramped enough to short out.
Just because you *can* ram 2KW through a big core does not mean you have to. But I sure hate it when I get shorts in the windings because I tried to ram too much wire in a tiny window. It is a very typical thing for me to do is use cores way too big, just for the sake of running things way below their design limit. I would probably wind the primary with multiple strands of enameled wire, and six secondary windings "hexafilar?" of heavier gauge Teflon wire or similar... whatever I have confidence in that I won't have any winding-to-winding shorts, as a failure will certainly result in replacement of costly parts and possibly a fire.
I would not necessarily ram a lot of current through the primary... its not like you have to charge the supercapacitors immediately. My guess is that the charge time could easily go over several minutes. Then occasionally, your processor looks at the cell voltages to see if any are getting low and need charging. In that case, hammer away at the primary a few more times... the energy will go to the tier with the lowest voltage, as its diode will be the first to turn on. And report the weak tier so you can move some of the individual capacitors around and find the one that is leaking down.
Just my take on it. Good luck!
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @08:38AM (5 children)
Ok... one more thing.... write your own software or have a group of us writing our own and we
don't have to put up with this shit! [trucktrend.com]
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @09:16AM (4 children)
Seems DMCA will not prevent any vehicle modifications?
Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) Vice President of Government Affairs Steve McDonald issued the following statement in regard to the organization’s stand on the DMCA and enthusiast rights:
“SEMA’s position is that the right to access vehicle systems and components in order to utilize, maintain, and upgrade vehicles stands regardless of an exemption from the DMCA. The law already contains a “safe harbor” to allow for lawful reverse engineering and interoperability. The association is actively engaged in the rulemaking process and is working to prevent any decision that would curtail the opportunity to modify vehicles within the law.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @10:12AM (3 children)
That's SEMA's stand on it... as is mine as well ... but not necessarily the legal interpretation if some "rightsholder" starts tossing DMCA into the fray.
A lot of farmers are having fits with interoperability of farm machinery.
In the old days, a grinding wheel and a welding torch made nearly everything interoperable.
This "customer lock-in" being enforced by laws passed by our Congress is proving quite a burden that want to buy one thing from vendor A and another from vendor B.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @10:21AM (2 children)
How will they systematically discover what a lone former does on his farm?
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @11:05AM (1 child)
They don't.
But they can go after anyone who tries to help the farmers.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:16PM
Which is then hidden or based abroad..
Action and counteraction ;)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @02:23PM (2 children)
The entertainment system in my Mazda could do with anything to replace the current "infotainment" system and Android seems like quite a good fit. The current media player has no state and insists on sorting all my music by Track Title (ignoring artist, album, etc.). It always plays tracks in the same order either on this default sort or the same "random" order. Whoever designed and coded this brainfuck must have a very small music collection with a very weird track naming system.
Love the car; hate the music system - although it does sound fantastic once you've found the music you want to listen to.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:07PM
Can you plug your own audio source into it?
(Score: 3, Informative) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @09:26AM
Isn't the audio system mechanically compatible with ISO 7736 [wikipedia.org] and use connector standard ISO 10487 [wikipedia.org] such that you can just replace it at will?
(Score: 2) by joshuajon on Tuesday May 16 2017, @02:56PM (1 child)
I recently purchased an Android head unit for my car and while I like it better than any stock radio / infotainment unit I've ever used, it's lacking in some pretty basic functionality.
Specifically and most conspicuously - there is currently no way to sync notifications from my Android phone to my Android screen in the car. There used to be an app called Pushbullet but they removed android android functionality.
Also, while I can play and control my music over bluetooth, there's currently no way to browse the music selection on my phone from my in-dash android device.
Ultimately what would make the most sense for me (and I'm sure many others) is essentially a dumb terminal that could mirror our phone screen when in the car. That way you'd have the same access to networks, media, notifications etc just on a larger screen, maybe with a driving overlay etc. Currently there's no good way to implement this.
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:58PM
There is an android 'mirror' scheme that was eventually superseded by Android Auto that is supported by quite a few aftermarket audio systems.
This is basically what you want for you in-dash is to just plug your phone in.
FYI: Android Auto should be available for any Android phone running 5.0 (Lollipop) or higher and the Android Auto app.
While Android Auto technically can run over WiFi+Bluetooth it does tend to drain your battery pretty fast so USB+Bluetooth is the recommended model.
[Due to limitations is control of phone design Bluetooth is still required for phone audio on some devices, not sure if some future version will drop the requirement for phones that can route phone audio through the codec to the USB/WiFI endpoint]
The equivalent systems also exists for IOS Devices called CarPlay. The Apple version does not require Bluetooth as the phone audio can be directly routed through the codec (or passed through as WAV) there are some aftermarket devices that initially only supported CarPlay and dropped the Bluetooth from the BOM. Apple also introduced a non-spec compatible USB protocol that not all SOCs vendors support ... this increased engineering / BOM cost was used to justify dropping the Bluetooth support.
On the plus side any USB chip capable of supporting Apple CarPlay also supports Android Auto, and any head-unit that doesn't have Bluetooth was just a bad idea anyway...
Hope this helps.
(Score: 2) by ilsa on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:34PM (4 children)
I guess it can't be any worse than Nuclear Submarines running Windows NT.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:45PM (3 children)
Subs aren't trying to phone their location home every five seconds over the Internet...
(Score: 2) by ilsa on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:54PM (2 children)
And your computer can't fire nuclear missles. As annoying as phoning home is, I think we can agree that that pales in comparison to obliterating the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, no?
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:47AM (1 child)
You were one thermal layer too deep, the point passed overhead like a speedboat.
Let me dive in:
NT was reasonably stable. If you keep it disconnected from nefarious networks, your missiles will launch. Worst case, you gotta reboot once and start the nuclear apocalypse 10 minutes behind schedule.
Those cars will be connected to their manufacturer, via your phone or a dedicated 3G/4G connection. No OS is 100% safe when connected to the web, so the next Android zero-day may brick your car (hopefully, not your ECU, so you can stop and call for a tow). Like OnStar, which I have been waiting to see used as an attack vector, there is a huge publicity/bitcoin payoff for a successful hack, which is bound to attract attention ...
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @09:31AM
Brick?
I think it will be more full gas and steer to the side hard. Multiplied by hundreds of cars.
It's so reckless and I'll guess that it won't be remedied until the dead bodies starts to float around (including children). Even more annoying is that other peoples learning curve is enforced on others that don't have to do this learning-by-bodily-harm.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:32PM
jaguar and toyota use linox. i'd buy that instead. i think they are submitting upstream and what not, too. android is a forced choice on my phone. don't want it in my auto, with the Eric the nosey nsa mole rooting around in there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @11:46PM (8 children)
NO COMPUTERS IN CARS...
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:54AM (7 children)
And how am I supposed to transport my laptop? On the roof? :-)
On a more serious note, you're out of luck. Every modern car has computers built in. In places where you don't even notice them. I'm not even sure you could fulfil current emission regulations without computer control.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:44PM (6 children)
Even worse the connection between the steering wheel and the physical wheels on the road is by wire. Through some trust-us (tm) computer running binary only blob.
Not forgetting the cellular and satellite connection for "updates".
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @07:11AM (5 children)
That sends shudders up and down me every time I even *think* of it.
And I am one of the ones who *design* these things!!!
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @09:04AM (4 children)
Better buy some old cars while you can..
And of course rip out any communication ports on a modern car. Separate the control systems from everything else.. like entertainment.
* Do you think it would be hard to simulate a car OBD port? so if someone plugs in something bad in the car it will only p0wn a chip that doesn't matter.
* And how hard would it be to (ab)use the drive-by-wire system to control it by ones own computer? such that it can send out "steer 20⁰ left" etc. Are those communication buses available?
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @10:01AM (3 children)
Kaszz: That was the main reason I bought that old diesel van I pontificate on here probably way too much.
What I see going on scares me about the ongoing maintainability or usability, with so many people having their hand in the pot. So many hands that can cause me problems. And fewer and fewer ways of legally prying those hands out of my life.
And to top it all off... crap like THIS [trucktrend.com].
I have worked with embedded processors all my life. If there is one thing I have learned: If you want it done right, Do It Yourself! I can't trust ANYBODY to do stuff, especially if they have the power to code stuff behind my back and have Congress pass law saying I can't see what they told the machine to do. Its like being handed legally binding contracts which are unlawful for me to read. To add insult to injury, they are allowed to do anything they want to do to me while holding themselves harmless.
This has gone too far in my book. Way too far.
I work with this stuff! And I don't trust it! This is like a chef admitting he won't eat the dish he's asked to serve.
As far as simulation of an OBD port, its who you are trying to fool. A bit difficult if trying to spoof a smog station, but I would guess possible to intercept a OBD stream and edit the parameters to those the smog check station wants to see. I'd have to look at the stuff a bit to see what things want to see and if I can synthesize on-the-fly data that fits their profile.
As far as the steer-by-wire, I would think if the physical interface exists on the wire, there exists a possibility of abuse... and if its some thing the government is mandating ... it will probably be abused. Law only applies to law-abiders anyway. People who do not abide by law often take great advantage of this. Laws mandating ignorance are not in the best interest of the public. Kinda like de-clawing a cat then putting it back into the wild to fend for itself.
When others know how to control your stuff, and you don't know how to keep them out of it, you are gonna be in a heap of hurt.
There are people out there who will gladly take control of your car just to see the wreck. Just for the fun of it. While Congress is giving them the tools and legal protection to keep the rest of us ignorant so as to make their fun time do-able.
What I am seeing makes me sick.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @10:18AM (2 children)
The point of OBD port simulation is to fool the casual person that sneaks a OBD dongle-car-killer or remote control into the port when you don't see. But the simulation will make that attempt fruitless and the person doing will not realize until it's way too late. I do not think it's easy to fool a repair shop, but I can realize the utility of doing so.
I thought that maybe one could use the steer-by-wire for ones own purposes using cars that you own yourself. Not for nefarious purposes. If it's there one might as well make use of it.
And regarding laws. If the law is that citizens are to be abused then the government have no legitimacy and can be treated as such. It's not much difference to North Korea, they also have laws but they are only followed due to the use of force.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Thursday May 18 2017, @11:02AM (1 child)
I am pretty sure you can, if the car is already doing it. I do not have any experience doing this. My guess is the data is on the local bus, unencrypted.
About thwarting OBD hijacking attempts... maybe kill the OBD port by hiding a switch somewhere that opens up the data circuit? That way one can plug crap into the port and nothing can happen. The "switch" may be something like cutting the vehicle's OBD port wiring and splicing in a couple of DB25 connectors ( butchered old printer extension cable ) hidden where only you know where it is. Plug them together when you have OBD business to do. Anyone else attempting to use the port gets a dead socket to plug into. Its up to them to find where you hid the break in the line. Bonus points if you use two use different kinds of connectors and appropriate "patch cable" ( which you keep with your personal possessions ) so the uninitiated will have no idea whats going on or what plugs into what. But I seriously doubt your prankster will be sophisticated enough to warrant it unless you are a *really* high value target.
I believe most of us quite willingly follow law that is "real" law... some may even call it God's law ... there is a lot of law out there which is sound basic law and had been known of before Biblical days. And we get quite upset when others break that law.
There is also a lot of "law" out there which is nothing more than a wish-list havers use against the have-nots to protect one-sided business paradigms... and people honor that one due to use of force, but not willingly. And we cheer on those who break that law. When it gets bad enough, the people revolt and null out the bad "law", falling back to the "real" law.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 18 2017, @11:59AM
One could up one on the OBD port by placing a microcontroller on the data wires so that the nefarious plug would manipulate a honeypot instead of the real thing. And report back to the evil doer that all is alright.
About the law. Once the moral basis for it is undermined. People will no longer care if their fellow man breaks it or even hint on how to do so without consequences. Same goes when the enforcer(s) wants help, know-nothing, see-nothing, hear-nothing etc except for the occasional tip that the dog in the neighbor village is probably guilty of cooking the books ;)