At the start of my teaching career, when I was fresh out of graduate school, I briefly considered trying to pass myself off as a cool professor. Luckily, I soon came to my senses and embraced my true identity as a young fogey.
After one too many students called me by my first name and sent me email that resembled a drunken late-night Facebook post, I took a very fogeyish step. I began attaching a page on etiquette to every syllabus: basic rules for how to address teachers and write polite, grammatically correct emails.
Over the past decade or two, college students have become far more casual in their interactions with faculty members. My colleagues around the country grumble about students' sloppy emails and blithe informality.
[...] Sociologists who surveyed undergraduate syllabuses from 2004 and 2010 found that in 2004, 14 percent addressed issues related to classroom etiquette; six years later, that number had more than doubled, to 33 percent. This phenomenon crosses socio-economic lines. My colleagues at Stanford gripe as much as the ones who teach at state schools, and students from more privileged backgrounds are often the worst offenders.
-- submitted from IRC
Source: The New York Times
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:12PM (2 children)
I suppose if no one is going to RTFA, you might as well not link to it...
(Score: 3, Informative) by n1 on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:37PM (1 child)
summary has been updated, my apologies.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:38PM
No worries, wasn't gonna read anyways.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by i286NiNJA on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:20PM (36 children)
Uberspoiled elites don't feel any need to conform.
Old people instinctively demand conformity from young people in order to preserve society through the generations. Also because they did it. Also for the pleasure of kicking around some helpless young person who lacks any ability to retaliate.
This generation's of old people have a lot of gall demanding any respect from younger people just cause.
They've catastrophically fucked up the entire planet.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DECbot on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:48PM (11 children)
This generation's of old people have a lot of gall demanding any respect from younger people just cause.
This ^^^
It's not just the environment, they also fuck up the economy, education, social stability, traditions, culture, and so much more. While I think informal emails and messages to your professor is a move in the wrong direction, the boomers and X'ers should accept this is a consequence of throwing out the traditions and formality that the older generations respected. If you don't personally adhere to tradition and formality, then why do you expect it from anyone else? If you are not respectful with your clients or even at the grocery store, then why do you think you're entitled to it?
From the young Millennials' point of view, their early education was fuck up, the secondary education is rigged to put them in stupid amounts of debt, the job market is broken, car ownership is a means to keep them in debt, news is warped in both directions, the economy is rigged to explode in the failed sense, religion is nothing more than another control mechanism for the weak minded, social media is out to sell them as a product, government debt is designed to be a problem during the prime of their life, home ownership is not realistic, the environment is catastrophically ruined, the classes and races of our society are primed to start killing each other, and the government is a deranged circus that is either there to oppress them or to oppress the entitled--or both. Unless you're set to profit from the collapse of western society, which of the previous listed achievements should command the Millennials' respect?
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Soylentbob on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:07PM (3 children)
I assume nearly every generation says that about their predecessors (... started the war, ... were all Nazis, ... committed atrocities in Vietnam, ... killed the US-Natives, ...). Of course, they were all wrong, while we are obviously right. And our kids will be wrong as well :-)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:42PM
Of course, they were all wrong, while we are obviously right.
Which is what every generation says about their successors.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:08PM
I assume nearly every generation says that about their predecessors
The Boomers [youtube.com] certainly did [youtube.com].
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:44PM
I assume nearly^w every generation says that about their predecessors...
FTFY
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:13PM
government is a deranged circus that is either there to oppress them or to oppress the entitled
What exactly is the method of oppressing the entitled? forcing them to pay a fair share of taxes... Nope. Not allowing them to move money offshore and not pay any taxes on what they make in the U.S.?... Nope. Making sure they get treated poorly by the justice system?... Nope. Not allowing them to form monopolies or cartels that outright steal from and abuse the citizenry?... Nope. Not allowing them to outright buy politicians or in fact make those purchases a functional part of our "Democracry"?... very much Nope!
What is this oppression you speak of?
(although deranged circus is a very apt description of our government. What I don't understand is when I watch a White House press conference, I do not see jugglers and clowns roaming around the room. I keep expecting that every time I see a news clip and I'm constantly disappointed. I really wish I was joking.)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:05PM (2 children)
which of the previous listed achievements should command the Millennials' respect?
Nothing. It's about poiiteness in civil engagement and discourse.
Politeness and etiquette are all about greasing the wheels of society.
Civil discourse has hit, if not historic lows, then close to it.
This is reflected almost everywhere, so it's not surprising that it's in post-secondary educational environments.
I think that, in part, it's due to communications moving towards the least common denominator.
At one time, only the wealthy and the clergy were literate.
After he printing press and Gutenberg type were invented, more folks could afford books, making literacy more useful. Over time, that led to significantly higher literacy rates, and in some ways drove the growth of enlightenment thinking, individual rights, and the incredible scientific and economic expansions of the past few centuries.
Until fairly recently (the last twenty or so years), widespread publishing of one's thoughts were still gated by book, magazine and newspaper publishers, as well as TV producers. Say what you want about those folks, but as a whole, their influence (perhaps not the TV people) maintained a certain level of discourse in the broad public discourse.
Up until recently, only those with both the will and the means could participate in that broad public discourse. Whether it be a letter to the editor of your local newspaper, or the time and resources to write a book, article or fund a movie/television piece.
With the explosion of cable TV channels, the rise of easy to create websites, blogging platforms, social media and other mechanisms for individuals to make their thoughts (however dotty or banal [azquotes.com]) known to the world, the quality of the broad public discourse has suffered.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing. More folks having the ability to weigh in in important events of the day is probably a good thing. Where once the majority of us saw only the discourse promulgated by those with knowledge, means and motivation, now we see what used to mostly be discussed at the bar or around the water cooler.
One of the consequences, however, is that the quality of the language, logic and level of civility has dropped significantly.
Another consequence is that those with knowledge, experience and expertise are being dismissed as not knowing any better than anyone else. Which is patently false.
Giving more people the ability to communicate in the public sphere is, on the whole, a good thing.
However, this results in more casual, dismissive and impolite attitudes towards others. More's the pity
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by deadstick on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:07PM
TL;DR -- The Internet is today's restroom wall.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:25PM
Obviously there's a need for efficient filtering based on personal preferences.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:16PM (1 child)
From the young Millennials' point of view
Why are you talking about Millennials here? This story is about college students. The Millennial generation is all out of college now; they're around 30 years old and having kids now. The college kids are the next generation after them.
Please try to keep up.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:25AM
Actually, the Millennial generation is currently defined as being 20-36 years old, give or take approx. 2 years in either direction. Then again, they're also supposedly all the offspring of Baby Boomers, in spite of how old the youngest Boomers would've been by 1997, and Gen X is supposedly uniformly the offspring of the Silent Generation...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by r_a_trip on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:06AM
***Unless you're set to profit from the collapse of western society, which of the previous listed achievements should command the Millennials' respect?***
It is not about giving respect to people. It is about maintaining good form, so that the people who can negatively influence the course of your life, are not given a reason to do so. Courtesy and formal address go a long way to make sure you don't end up at the bottom of the pile.
Don't sputter that acting in that way is unfair, because guess what, nobody who matters cares. Those in power can equally use it or abuse it, mostly with impunity. You are dealing with humans. Humans are irrational and emotional critters. We simply do more for people who make us feel good about ourselves.
Go ahead. Piss off the people who in part decide on your advancement in life. See if that gets you what you want. My guess is that the people who do use formal address and who are inclined to communicate professionally will have it easier than the ones not adhering to formal standards.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:32PM (9 children)
This generation's of old people have a lot of gall demanding any respect from younger people just cause.
Since this generation of college professors are more intent on spreading their political agenda than actually teaching, I guess I'd have to agree with you.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:07PM (3 children)
Ah, but my dear and fluffy frojack, how could you possibly tell the difference between a political agenda and the Arts, Sciences, and Humanities? It is bad enough that you cannot address your superiors with the proper decorum, but to remain so ignorant and confused at an institution of Higher Learning, this is truly deplorable.
This is why we cannot have Republicans on campus. All they want to do is treat everything as if it was politics, a matter of opinion, and so they do not study and learn. And the only contribution they make is to invite the occasional controversy, like an Ann, or a Milo, or a Barry (Goldwater). If only they could learn some manners, and intellectual integrity, and political correctness.
(Score: 5, Funny) by melikamp on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:15PM (2 children)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:27AM (1 child)
Thus we learn the source of Aristarchus' angst towards Republicans. A surprising percentage of them still giving him crap over his central thesis. [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:39AM
Angst? Is not that a German thing? We Greeks don't do "angst". However, the goat song, the τραγῳδία, [wikipedia.org] is very much a part of Greek culture, from ancient times and even into the present. And what, you may ask, is the essence of tragedy? Oh, it is usually the consequence of hubris, [wikipedia.org] ὕβρις, overweening pride, excessive confidence, certainty of one's beliefs, all things Republicans are guilty of.
The point of tragedy is when the protagonist realizes that it is exactly his cleverness, his total grasp of Ayn Rand, of Von Mises, that precisely brings about the downfall of all that they believe in, that they are the means by which evil manifests itself on earth. And there is nothing they can do to take it back, or make it right, Donald is still the President, and it is all their fault.
They are, of course, not the only ones. But still, anyone who today, with all the evidence and data and confirmation, can dare to assert that Global Warming is not real, that the Earth is flat, or that the Earth is the center of the universe, these people are not just Republicans, they are idiots. Now it used to be true, as the philosopher and employee of the East India Company, John Stuart Mill, used to put it, that will not all conservatives are stupid, it is true that all stupid people are conservative. But this has proven to be unfounded optimism. Now if you are a conservative, you must believe stupid things, young earth creationism, Climate-change denial. Vaccines cause disease!, tax cuts result in increased tax revenue! And that khallow is a sane individual. See? Angst? No. Just fear that the world will end in stupidity rather than enlightenment. If only I had not lost my faith in Mithra. He's coming back, you know. As a Bull. Bull Durham. Hook you, if you're not watching!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by kaszz on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:09PM
Seems to be mostly non-STEM departments doing that stuff.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:44PM
> Since this generation of college professors are more intent on spreading their political agenda than actually teaching
They spread their political agenda by letting some grad student teach?
Professors are clearly more intent doing some kind of grant-related activity. Is teaching a grant-related activity? Must not be, or we'd see actual professors teaching, a whole 3 hours a week.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:38PM (2 children)
For what it's worth: I attended and graduated from a college that is routinely and justifiably cited as a hotbed of liberalism, not all that long ago. But my professors left their political views largely outside of the classroom. In most cases, I didn't even know what their political views were. That's because politics has no effect on linear algebra, database design, music theory, or many other subjects I studied heavily. History, gender studies, and economics got more political, but I have it on good authority (the head of the Young Republicans on campus, who was fairly friendly with me) that conservative ideas were not being rejected out of turn nor became cause for discrimination. The only on-campus speaker I saw anybody try (unsuccessfully) to silence was Bill Clinton's treasury secretary, Larry Summers, and conservative voices like Arthur Laffer were able to speak without incident. There was an ingrained understanding of how to handle speakers whose views you found distasteful: Let them give their speech, then do your best to pillory them in the Q&A section.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by purple_cobra on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:08PM (1 child)
There was an ingrained understanding of how to handle speakers whose views you found distasteful: Let them give their speech, then do your best to pillory them in the Q&A section.
Quite right too. And also the reason why Theresa May isn't meeting any voters and will not take part in a televised debate with the other party leaders: she can't think on her feet. When someone is feeding her lines or she's reading off a script, she's fine; as soon as she's required to "do politics" - convincing people via persuasion and rhetoric - she fails badly.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:28PM
But is she a capable person to run the country? ie competent and with the right virtues?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:34PM (9 children)
Fuck you, you whiney, entitled, millennial, bitch.
I'll tell you what I did-I went to a school that I could afford and that would give me a degree I could actually use.
I busted my ass my whole life to make a better life for my family and me.
When I hire you and you write me an email like that, you will be out on the street before you can say, "But, everyone is special."
Better that you learn how to behave like a professional while you are in college than wondering why I canned your ass.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:23PM (7 children)
lol! Er, I mean, surely you jest, sir!
I'll tell you what I did-I went to a school that I could afford
Now you have a problem. If you want me to give a shit about what you just wrote, tell me why college costs four times as much these days and why wages have been stagnant with decreasing upward mobility since you went.
No, on second thought, don't bother, because you can't. You're just going to write "blablablabla HARD WORK blablablablabla."
It's time we end social security. Right now. End it. I am tired of forking over my paycheck to support your ass.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:15PM (6 children)
Keep crying little whiner.
I paid social security all my life to take care of those who aged out before me. I'm not complaining. The thought that I'd be relying on SS is just another example of your entitled attitude, bitch. If we get rid of SS now, who's going to take care of your old ass? Mine is already taken care of.
Newsflash and shock for you... I saved my money too. I didn't buy the latest video game or phone (course, they weren't invented yet). I didn't waste my money on expensive cars or other shit I didn't need. I worked every summer and every weekend and holiday when I was in college. You should try some real work. It was good for me to see exactly why I was going to college.
College cost more today than it did when I was in school. Aw too bad. So do a lot of other things. Does the world owe you a degree? I'll help you with this one because you don't get it - NO. I went to a public university and lived at home. I never found the time or reason to complain about that. It's what I could afford, I made the best of it. I didn't get to go to RPI or Cal Tech because I couldn't afford it. When you realize that you are working now, sacrificing now for something in your future, rather than instant gratification, you will understand. When you have your own kids and are putting them through school, you can look back on the good decisions you made. Welcome to the real world, it's actually pretty nice here. All that you did all those years ago, now paying off. (Except the little detail that the real world doesn't owe you a damn thing.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:45PM
Of course, you got yours so screw everyone else. The public university you attended was far more highly subsidized than public universities today. I'm near retirement and went to a public univeristy so this is true for me as well. You didn't do it on your own to the extent you want to believe.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:58PM (3 children)
Typical entitled "I got mine so screw you" jerk.
Your public university education (and mine for that matter) was far more highly subsidized by someone else's taxes than is true today. It wasn't your undeserved smug moral superiority that got you through college - it was someone else paying for the majority of it in a way that is no longer the case.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:48PM (2 children)
Typical claim from whiney bitches.(both parent posts) You haven't done a damn thing on your own and so no one else could have. Now you are going to tell me the world just handed it to me. Think again.
I worked for mine every god damned day. Mommy and daddy didn't pay for my education, I did. It cost less, was there a bigger % subsidy? I don't know, prove it. It cost less, I don't disagree with that. Maybe you missed that.
You also missed the part about sacrifice and living the Spartan life - no spring breaks in Fla, lived at home, and either did school work or hourly wage work 100% of my time starting in high school. Worked two jobs for a while. Yea, I got mine and you can try to diminish it all you want. College cost is only part of it. I drove a 10 year old beater that had 100,000 miles on it when I got it and I fixed myself for 10 years. I paid for my own wedding. I paid SS starting in high school too. Do you know what "doubling back" is? No, you have no clue. I'll tell you what it is. It's when you work a shift and then take only one shift off and then come back to work the next shift. In my case, worked Friday from 3 PM to 11 PM and then back on Sat morning at 7 AM to work till 3 (or usually 7) and then back to work on Sunday (often slept in my car since it got me more sleep). That's how I spent my weekends for 4 years. I worked second or third shift every frigging summer. That's the attitude that helped me "get mine". Now tell me how it was just handed to me. Tell me how much you worked in high school? How much during college? Living at home? Yea, I lived at home and paid a little rent too. You will never, ever understand.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:53PM (1 child)
Cool story bro. Your inability to pick up better jobs that paid more in college still makes the comment that you were replying to no less true.
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:42PM
I love how his sob story is like half of what kids have to go through to get ahead now.
Man these old guys and their entitlement. "OH MAN I HAD TO WORK IN A KITCHEN FOR AWHILE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT'S LIKE". Oh man it's rich. I'm fucking dying. "I DIDN'T GET TO FUCK GIRLS ON SPRING BREAK YOU KIDS TODAY DON'T KNOW!"
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:38PM
You made all those sacrifices and all you got to do is retire?
Lol you're a loser too. God I may have slept in a tent but at least I'm rich now. Why is it these fuckers are always so proud of getting pounded in the ass with nothing to show? Well enjoy spending my social security.
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:20PM
Your generation broke the american compact after living through the most comfortable existence non-elites have enjoyed in the history of humanity and now you ridicule the people you've fucked over. Please save me your bullshit I was half deaf and had developed a limp in the military around the time you were probably buying your first home then I finished my CS degree early despite living in a tent for awhile in college. I don't blame any of these kids for sitting around their parent's homes smoking weed it's exactly what their parents deserve.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:45PM
Insisting on traditional etiquette is also simply good pedagogy. It’s a teacher’s job to correct sloppy prose, whether in an essay or an email. And I suspect that most of the time, students who call faculty members by their first names and send slangy messages are not seeking a more casual rapport. They just don’t know they should do otherwise — no one has bothered to explain it to them. Explaining the rules of professional interaction is not an act of condescension; it’s the first step in treating students like adults.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:28PM (1 child)
Young grasshopper, my generation told their parents exactly what you tell us. Picking left vs right is just picking one side of the real agenda. But you'll learn.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:19AM
I'm going on 66 now... this brings back many memories of how I felt when I was a teenager.
I was really pissed. Everyone else seemed to be pissed too. My history is littered with all sorts of civil disobedience of my peers.
Vietnam war. Draft. Having to be obedient to damn near everything. Drugs all over the place. Many of my friends checking out.
Go back and look at that stuff that fomented the protest music of the 60's.
My heart is with you guys.... We tried our best to change the world... to make things better. In some cases we did. However we have let a lot of stuff slip through the cracks and make one helluva mess. I know I won't be around for all that much longer. Just pure statistics. I know how long dad lived. My guess is I will last about the same.
If anything, please work on this mess about how we have our tax codes set up so we use our resources productively and quit funding the havers for hoarding. Make sure people like Elon Musk have the resources they need and not tax the shit out of them in the melee. We had Carnegie and Ford, who made a huge difference in our living standard as a public. You guys have people which will make a difference too. Really useful people are not unique to one generation. But we also have useless bags of shit which just hoard and provide nothing. Go after them with a vengeance. You have my blessing ( as if you needed it. ).
We, like you, had high hopes and frustrations. Soon, you will have the reins, and we will have our granite markers, well some of us. I won't. I'd rather anything I have go to my nephews, not to some ceremonial fluff.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:40PM
They've [the older generation] catastrophically fucked up the entire planet.
By bringing so many younger people into the world.
Not JUST a smart alec answer, but a comment on the general lack of understanding of population pressure on the world.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:21PM
Bro why u gotta be a bitch about it
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:31PM (17 children)
Rather than the notion of textspeak that lived briefly in the 2000s, only people intentionally "leaning in" on bad spelling type that badly on the internet now. Well, and your mom.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:53PM (14 children)
Well, no -- I don't think profs tend to receive much "textspeak" in emails. However, I have had professorial colleagues who received emails from students with salutations including "Hey man" and "Yo dude". I wish I were joking. And no, these were not from students who knew the profs well; they were initial contacts with the professor.
I think it depends on a lot on the student. I've seen emails that go overboard the other way, although also in a manner that makes them seem email illiterate. Something like:
From: Sam Jones
To: Professor
Subject: Sam Jones
Body: Dear Professor, Hi this is Sam Jones here. I'm in your 10am class on X.... I have this problem Y. Thanks. Your student, Sam Jones.
Yes, I get it -- you're Sam Jones. I could tell from the "From" field in your email. I also know you're in my class, because there are only 10 people in it, and I've called you by name multiple times this semester.
I kid you not -- I've received emails that look like this even AFTER I've had a detailed email correspondence with a student multiple times. Do you really think I don't remember who you are after all that so you need to remind me four times in EVERY email? I'd actually prefer "Hey man..." at that point.
... ANYHOW, to those who would criticize a prof for trying to teach basic email etiquette, I personally view it as a "professional development" part of education. In the real world, if you email some person who has authority over you and whom you don't know well (e.g., boss's boss, HR director, whatever) with a salutation "Yo dude..." that may not be the best strategy to get what you want in your job.
(Score: 2) by melikamp on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:05PM (6 children)
A lot of these things are kind of personal. With emails, I insist on them mentioning their roster name and class every time, just so that I can quickly locate their record. If that information is not present, I refuse to process the rest and instantly fire a boilerplate request for clarification. Saves my time :)
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:23PM (4 children)
I completely understand that policy, and if we were talking about a class of 100 students or something, I'd be grateful for the same thing.
When you're teaching a 10-student seminar and talk to the student personally almost every class, it's a bit odd to receive an email like that repeatedly from the same student. But I never thought that they may have just been "trained" to do that in other classes....
(Score: 2) by melikamp on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:27PM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:43PM (1 child)
True -- the random Yahoo or Gmail accounts can be a mystery. I have on occasion received a message from "groovychick2014@yahoo.com" or some address like that with a request for clarification on a syllabus and no signed name... which was confusing. I guess I haven't encountered the combo of random Yahoo account AND no signed name at the end enough to make me institute a formal policy.
But that's another thing that younger people maybe should be taught to think about -- using bizarre or inappropriate email address names for "official" correspondence. I'm sure when they were 14 it sounded great to sign up for "toughstud843" as a username, but I always find it a little weird to get email from students with addresses like that.
(Score: 2) by tfried on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:34PM
Sorry if I'm making wrong assumptions on your age, but do note that you and I did not even have an email account at age 14, or at least not one that we actually used (you do need someone to communicate with, after all). As irritating as it is, the issue of teenage usernames sticking around is simply something our generation never had to worry about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:46PM
Maybe they are trying not to be presumptuous that their 10 student class is all that you look after. For all they know, you have 10 ten-student classes.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:01PM
Seems you found the formula for how to handle noise so you get a better signal-to-noise deal ;-)
Anyway I think setting a proper subject in personal emails, making an effort on how a text is formulated and grammar such that other people can understand and interpret what is being written and of course stating the request in clear terms is a minimum in most communications.
Titles etc may however be cumbersome. Kind of reminds me of code written by well paid people in suits with the right degrees that can't even compete in performance with a pimple ridden 17-year old that knows what he's doing. At the core of it is that competence and curiosity is key.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:39PM (5 children)
I've received emails that look like this even AFTER I've had a detailed email correspondence with a student multiple times.
So help me out here....
Your briefly hand waive away the fact that some kids who lack even a modicum of respect in their emails.
Then you spend the bulk of your post castigating poor Sam, who was going out of his way to be polite and respectful.
Then you say you call it "Professional Development". You seem a little undecided on this subject.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:45PM (3 children)
You have to choices:
1. Come out of high school perfect, with no weaknesses in your professional communication skills.
2. Be one of those damn millennials ruining everything. Why are they eating so many avocados on my lawn?
Hell, I'm a professional who works in an office with some very formal people, and I'm sure I write overly curt or unnecessarily formal emails all the time. The people on the other end of it get over it and we work together to solve problems, like actual adults.
(Score: 4, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:04PM (1 child)
Come out of high school perfect, with no weaknesses in your professional communication skills.
I guess you missed the point in my post where I recommended advising students to help them improve their communication skills for "Professional Development" purposes. I don't expect that they will be "perfect" at the start. I *am* surprised at how many don't even understand the basics of etiquette in a professional situation. It's not a huge number, and I don't even know that it's a "millennial" problem; I assume some students have always had these issues.
I *rarely* correct a student on this sort of thing unless it's a pervasive and odd issue that I think could get them into trouble down the line in professional communication. But in that latter case, I think it's actually part of a role of being a good educator to help students in this fashion (and I'd never do so in a denigrating tone or whatever).
By the way, I'm not some weird person obsessed with etiquette either. I'd say the exact same thing about correcting a student's grammar or usage in a paper submitted to me, even if it wasn't really about the content. I'm not teaching them English, but if they are persistently misusing commas, I'm going to let them know.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:18PM
I will acknowledge you are right: I intentionally missed the point and presented a false dichotomy as a rhetorical tactic.
This is not because I think I you, personally, are being unreasonable, but because the core of this, to me, seems like the same "this damn next generation" stuff, filtered through a lens where, suddenly, a written form is suddenly how the naivety and imperfections of young people are most clearly communicated. 20 years ago, it would definitely be "Oh man, you should've heard this phone call I got from my student" instead.
And also the same shit with essays.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:40PM
I personally saw 2 spelling mistakes in the space of a month in emails. The millenials are fucking destrying the fucking country those fucking noobs.
(Score: 3, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:53PM
I wouldn't exactly say I was "castigating" poor Sam. I'm sincerely grateful he made the effort. And I wasn't AT ALL criticizing his politeness or respectfulness -- only the fact that he told me his name four or five times in every message. (And this fictional student is not unique.)
I do sometimes find this sort of thing indicative of students who also are inexperienced with email. I could give other examples of misplaced attempts at formality that come across as bizarre. But, as another post pointed out, some profs actually want this sort of info EVERY TIME in a message, so maybe I was a bit harsh on poor Sam in this particular quirk.
You seem a little undecided on this subject.
I guess maybe you thought I was criticizing the format or formality of Sam's message? I wasn't. And I was joking at the end when I said at that point I'd prefer "Hey man..." but I guess perhaps I needed a sarcasm tag.
Clear now?
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:36AM
1. The faculty should agree on an appropriate form of address for themselves. At my undergrad alma mater, for example, we were to refer to our profs as "Mr. Smith" or "Ms. Jones" (even if they had a doctorate). Students deviating from that would be gently corrected.
2. Part of what everyone with a B.A. should know is the basics of proper communication in their primary language and culture. In the US, that means that you should be able to handle a formal business letter, an academic essay, or a fairly formal email, and most importantly understand that all those shouldn't read like a Facebook post.
3. I've never once been looked down on for being a bit too formal in my emails. Part of teaching kids this stuff is teaching them to err on the side of formality, and watch for signals that you can get more informal. For example, in my initial approach to a potential client, I'm addressing "Mr. Johnson", and then if I see that they sign their name "Bill" rather than "William H Johnson, CTO of Initech", I'll start calling them "Bill".
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:11PM (1 child)
whateva u say bby
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:42PM
oh u like it wen i talk like dat huh txt me
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:31PM (22 children)
My colleagues at Stanford gripe as much as the ones who teach at state schools, and students from more privileged backgrounds are often the worst offenders.
Isn't this kinda by definition going to be worse at ivies or at least small private colleges?
I took a discrete math (like intro logic plus intro automata theory) class from an actual professor. I took quantitative chemical analysis from an actual professor. In the USA calculus has calc and diffeqs fit into four semesters, and at least one of those I had a real prof. I'm so old I took FORTRAN programming in about 1990 from a genuine elderly professor. I'm really struggling here. I think my intro to philosophy mandatory liberal arts req was taught by a retired prof technically an adjunct. That's about it.
Every other higher ed class I ever took was a TA/grad student or adjunct aka consultant. I had an engineer coworker try to recruit me to adjunct teach on the weekends, but I don't think he realized my lack of patience. Some were actually pretty good. I had an amazing American History instructor who was a phd student at a nearby uni. I still remember a "freshman english lit" instructor who was an unemployed adjunct postdoc type person, for a field that externally sounds like pure leftist politics she was surprisingly well read. My first uni calculus TA was as good of an instructor as my high school calculus teacher, although her accent was nearly incomprehensible.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:38PM (1 child)
I have no idea how any of this relates to the article.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:44PM
I have no idea how any of this relates to the article.
Someday when you go to uni, you'll have a java programmer consultant hired as an adjunct to teach your CS101 "how to use MS Excel" class and his preferred format of address is "dudes first name" not come to military posture of attention, salute, present arms, and say "honorable kind sir doctor professor dudes name". And after about 10 classes taught by consultants moonlighters and semi-drunken grad students in a very informal manner, a prof demanding some weird form of address will be too weird of an experience to handle.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:40PM (4 children)
As I re-read the doc, it in no way implies he has freshman year age 19 students. He might be bullying postdocs or grad students older than him who didn't win the demographic lottery and now he gets to rub it in.
I certainly wouldn't put up with that kind of crap from a coworker. If I were a tenure track prof I'd think twice about lecturing a mere lowly adjunct prof about who needs to salute whom in the hallway.
Or as a STEM prof I'd think twice about playing dominance games with your lab employees, first names are fine in the workplace and being known as the department jackass is going to get your lab work sabotaged.
Either way, my initial claim that students have never been taught by a prof so having no idea how to talk to a prof is the fault of the uncountable administrators, or the prof is being way too pompous around his roughly equal level coworkers, I don't think his aim is very good.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:48PM
Interesting. You're not going to jump dump on millennials or leftists here?
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:11PM
I agree with you on that. I've just re-entered the academic scene as a graduate student, and I erred of the side of formality when emailing the professor who's become my supervisor. After a handful of emails where the professor signed his first name only (and addressed me by first name) I took the lead and started doing the same.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:19PM (1 child)
Just out of curiosity, where do you live/work? I want to know so that I can avoid the place. Just to be clear, I'm OK with first names in the work place. I'm not at all fine with sabotaging the hard work of others, no matter how much of a jackass they may be.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:16PM
Just out of curiosity, where do you live/work?
It's called the real world. People have done worse things for less motivation, and the supply/demand ratios in academia are insane, so you can assume psychopathy rises to the top more than typically.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:20PM (13 children)
I think it's really an institutional culture thing, and sometimes even various by department. Yes, Ivies or small colleges with small classes might have more casual interactions with profs, but it still generally depends on the prof. Usually by default you'd still address them as "Prof. X" unless they say something else.
My experience is that regionally things vary a lot. In the North, "Professor" is generally the assumed title even if you're an adjunct. First names are reserved for TAs who invite you to call them by first name and perhaps the occasional professor who encourages that too. In parts of the South, "Doctor" is often the assumed title; "Professor" is only for special occasions. Bonus points for knowing which faculty members don't have a doctorate and thus are officially referred to as "Mister" or "Ms." (Seriously, in the South lots of folks still actually teach their young kids to use academic titles for their neighbors. No "Mister Bob that lives across the street" -- it's "Dr. Jones" even if he's an English professor.) In the South, even TAs often go by "Mister" or "Ms."
It becomes even weirder with grad students and profs. In some schools and in some departments, everyone uses first names with each other from the get-go. At other places, you have to achieve a certain "seniority" as a grad student before dropping titles. That used to be much more regimented a lot of places.
All of this reminds me of an anecdote I heard from a senior female professor who recently retired. Back when she was a grad student, the female grad students were still expected to serve coffee to the class at seminar meetings and such. Anyhow, she still vividly recalls when she passed her qualifying exams for her doctorate, and one of the senior faculty members walked up to her, shook her hand very awkwardly, and said in his menacing thick German accent, "Und NOW, you shall call me EDVARD!" She found the whole thing terrifying.
Speaking of Germans, academic etiquette there is so much more complex, and of course depends on whether you have been "offered the Du" (which entitles you to use the informal "you" in German, as buddies and young people do). I know another senior American prof (from Germany) has basically made it impossible for him to speak in German to some of his colleagues who are also German, because of the "Du" problem. One other full professor in the same department refuses to speak German to this guy because he has never been offered the Du; in Germany, it would be common to "Sie" a senior colleague even if you were also distinguished academic, but with American informality the younger (but still full professor) colleague feels like this is overly deferential since they are the same rank. On the other hand, this old guy for some weird reason got a little tipsy one night with a a recent grad student and offered the Du. It's impossible to refuse, but it creates such a cultural awkwardness that the younger guy now refuses to speak to the old guy in German too. So everyone just speaks English now...
Anyhow, whatever problems Americans have with forms of address, just be grateful we don't have the complex social hierarchy of German academia.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:45PM (2 children)
Germany really.. REALLY have a very formal system for titles etc.
No informal Silicon Valley can-do-the-job for you. Study to become a combined brain surgeon and rocket scientist before you even dare to touch the HR door for hiring cleaning personnel.
(Score: 2) by Rich on Tuesday May 16 2017, @11:09PM (1 child)
Germany really.. REALLY have a very formal system for titles etc.
It's not that complicated. Japan is complicated. There, it is even important how you refer to yourself when speaking to others: nothing, "watashi", "boku", or "ore" (in decreasing level of formality, as I understood it so far...). And don't get started on how many fifths of bowing are appropriate for a situation. :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:28AM
Gee.. I thought if one started mentioning watashi in Japan, someone would probably offer him a dead fish.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by melikamp on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:53PM (1 child)
I agree completely. Concerning grad school and up, I never got a chance to work at a department where people get stiff about titles. My Russian upbringing would make me a fish in the water there, but on the intellectual level I think it's all rubbish. At BU, where I was invited to do a doctorate, they told me during a welcome session to address all professors by first name. I thought it was super-nice, but I summarily ignored the advice simply because respect for elders was beaten into me for the first 20 years of my life. When I started as an adjunct at NE, I was told the same thing, and still ignored it completely. This resulted in a very funny altercation with David Massey, who politely asked me to call him "Dave" a couple of times, but at some point lost his temper, raised his voice, and gave me a completely uncensored ultimatum.
With undergrads, I think, this is a much more nuanced issue, with facets going quite beyond personal or even institutional preferences. I can totally see why people who came from disenfranchised groups, such as women or racial minorities, people who fought double-hard to obtain a degree, are insisting on respectful titles. It is all to easy for them to lose or to never obtain a minimum level of respect required to instruct a large class full of unruly undergrads. The class dynamic, when it gets out of control, can damage the effectiveness and ruin the instructional experience for everyone.
Personally, though, I never had any trouble introducing myself as simply Ivan. I get a general feeling my students consider me pretty scary (in a good way of course), and no amount of title familiarity can dispel that. I am also very natural at pushing back whenever I detect an actually disrespectful comment. Makes me think of Mr. (Ms.?) Garrison's 'present them' technique, but clean and adapted to a college environment :)
(Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:21PM
I can totally see why people who came from disenfranchised groups, such as women or racial minorities, people who fought double-hard to obtain a degree, are insisting on respectful titles.
Absolutely agree here too. I never really thought about this until I talked to a female friend who somewhat frequently had students default to referring to her as "Miss" and occasionally even had students try using her first name. (This was someone teaching in the South, so "Dr. X" would always be the default, and no student would EVER think of using a first name with a male professor unless explicitly invited.) I think it's a lot more common for female profs to get that.
I also was quite shocked when I heard the kind of stuff that happened in class to a black female colleague, in terms of general disrespect. In this case, it even involved some students I knew and had taught -- and who were always deferential to me. Stuff like this can certainly happen.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:23PM (6 children)
I think it's really an institutional culture thing, and sometimes even various by department. Yes, Ivies or small colleges with small classes might have more casual interactions with profs, but it still generally depends on the prof. Usually by default you'd still address them as "Prof. X" unless they say something else.
This isn't limited to the academic setting. Even in other professional settings, I'm often surprised when those whom I don't know address me familiarly.
I was taught (and rightly so, IMHO) that familiarity (first names, nicknames, "dude", "bro", "dudebro") are only appropriate after one is invited to do so.
I never address someone familiarly (at least in a professional setting -- and despite what some may think, school is a professional setting) unless invited to do so.
It's Mr., Ms., Dr. (or professor) so-and-so unless and until I'm invited to do otherwise. And it doesn't matter whether the person is older, younger, more junior or more senior than I am. It isn't rocket science, it's simple human respect.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:27PM (3 children)
I never address someone familiarly (at least in a professional setting -- and despite what some may think, school is a professional setting) unless invited to do so.
I've got some experience of this in a high-school environment.
(English has dropped the familiar "thou" and now uses "you" for both familiar and formal. Welsh, among many other languages, still has and uses both.)
I've found from working in Welsh-medium schools that a significant majority of pupils now use the familiar pronoun when addressing a teacher, whereas in my time the formal was universally used. Teachers still use the formal when addressing other teachers in front of pupils, but it seems the modern pupils aren't catching on and following our lead. Perhaps it's because of the influence of the "thou"-less English?
It's important to remember that these things can change naturally over time, and aren't necessarily a sign of disrespect. I always addressed my grandparents with the formal pronoun, but my father also addressed them (his parents) with the formal pronoun. I was raised using the informal pronoun with my parents instead. Now I've got a daughter who's learning to talk. She'll definitely be using the familiar pronoun with me, and while I haven't made a conscious decision, I expect she'll use the familiar with her (Welsh-speaking) grandparents too.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:19PM (2 children)
I never address someone familiarly (at least in a professional setting -- and despite what some may think, school is a professional setting) unless invited to do so.
I've got some experience of this in a high-school environment.
(English has dropped the familiar "thou" and now uses "you" for both familiar and formal. Welsh, among many other languages, still has and uses both.)
I've found from working in Welsh-medium schools that a significant majority of pupils now use the familiar pronoun when addressing a teacher, whereas in my time the formal was universally used. Teachers still use the formal when addressing other teachers in front of pupils, but it seems the modern pupils aren't catching on and following our lead. Perhaps it's because of the influence of the "thou"-less English?
It's important to remember that these things can change naturally over time, and aren't necessarily a sign of disrespect. I always addressed my grandparents with the formal pronoun, but my father also addressed them (his parents) with the formal pronoun. I was raised using the informal pronoun with my parents instead. Now I've got a daughter who's learning to talk. She'll definitely be using the familiar pronoun with me, and while I haven't made a conscious decision, I expect she'll use the familiar with her (Welsh-speaking) grandparents too.
Language is certainly a living thing. It changes all the time. Those changes are based upon usage and culture.
I have no problems with a changing language or a changing culture. It just seems to me that in a professional environment one should behave, well, professionally.
Given the circumstance you presented (speaking with family members), that makes some sense. It's a product of culture that one would be formal with senior family members. My forbears didn't stand on formality with family members, so I didn't either. They did insist on formality with both strangers and professional colleagues (unless first invited to do otherwise).
In a formal (read: professional) environment, however, it seems to me that it's appropriate to be respectful of those around you (as you've noted the *professionals* in the school environment do). Those students aren't professionals. They are *learning*.
For me, this was taught both in school and at home. If that's no longer the case, I'll lament the loss of civility, but so be it.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by kazzie on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:05AM (1 child)
Thanks for the reply. One addendum I'd like to make: Teachers will use the formal pronoun with each other in front of pupils, but generally the familiar when alone (with selective exceptions for older teachers or heads of department, of course).
(Score: 3, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:41AM
Thanks for the reply. One addendum I'd like to make: Teachers will use the formal pronoun with each other in front of pupils, but generally the familiar when alone (with selective exceptions for older teachers or heads of department, of course).
That seems reasonable. Again, it's all about the culture.
I'm sure it's quite similar at many places of business when employees (in this case, teachers) are in front of customers (in this case, students). And more senior managers/executives will be accorded more formality, while peers will be more casual with each other.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:11AM (1 child)
As a millennial, I put no importance on the words used to initially address someone. Names as just labels. Tone is what matters. You sound like one of the majority of people who believe someone in a suit is a better and more important person than someone not in a suit. That line of thinking is bullshit and discriminatory. The first words people speak to someone are either to gain their attention or to socially manipulate them. Recognize that and get off your high horse. Intent matters. I can be far more insulting saying "Dr. Jones" than saying "hey".
How is putting my elbows on a table insulting? There are many left over social codes which should be dropped. We're not supposed to have slave and master classes anymore.
(Score: 4, Touché) by NotSanguine on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:00AM
As a millennial, I put no importance on the words used to initially address someone.
I suspect that won't serve you well. But I have no axe to grind. Do what you like.
Names as just labels. Tone is what matters. You sound like one of the majority of people who believe someone in a suit is a better and more important person than someone not in a suit.
You don't just sound like, you *are* someone who makes unfounded (and in this case, flat wrong) assumptions about people. It's rather amusing to me. I bet you're lots of fun at parties (at least for others laughing at you behind your back).
I don't give a rat's ass about what people wear, or what kind of car they drive. Or anything other than whether or not they are decent human beings. A concept with which you are apparently unfamiliar.
In a work environment, I believe that people are most productive when they feel most comfortable. If you are competent, that's good. If you're not, you can wear whatever you want, you're still incompetent.
That line of thinking is bullshit and discriminatory. The first words people speak to someone are either to gain their attention or to socially manipulate them. Recognize that and get off your high horse. Intent matters. I can be far more insulting saying "Dr. Jones" than saying "hey".
I disagree. My cats respond to tone only. Actual humans understand how you say things and *what* you say. That said, do whatever you want. I don't care.
You know what else I don't care for? Your self-righteous attitude. Enjoy it. I'm sure it will take you far in life. Hopefully far away from me.
How is putting my elbows on a table insulting? There are many left over social codes which should be dropped. We're not supposed to have slave and master classes anymore.
I don't know. Maybe it hurts your elbows? I'm not sure what you're blathering on about, or what it has to do with being polite and respectful to *all* your fellow humans.
You certainly seem to want to be nasty to me for no apparent reason. I don't remember kicking anybody's puppy or stealing anyone's girlfriend recently. So maybe the problem is you. Just a crazy thought.
Have a great day!
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 4, Informative) by bradley13 on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:16PM
I teach in Switzerland, and used to teach in Germany. The Sie/Du (formal/informal) stuff really isn't that complicated:
- When you address anyone you don't know, over the age of 16 or so, you start out formal. If you only have a brief interaction, that's the way it stays.
- In an environment where you will be in contact with the person over a longer period of time, and you are colleagues, the older or more senior person will (sooner or later, but probably sooner) invite you to move to the informal.
- The young American prof Archanius mentioned, who found this offensive, clearly failed to understand the etiquette of the culture he was in. He sounds like he was an arrogant twit on top if it.
What's interesting is how rapidly German culture is moving to the informal means of address. Twenty years ago, I was always "Professor", and too often "Herr Professor Dr.". Now, in the first lecture of a new class, I immediately offer the informal, and first names. Not everyone does - some professors still insist on formality, and which is also still fine.
Respect is not a problem here. The students are here to learn, I'm here to help them do that. Of course, there is the odd unpleasant student, but that's no different than anywhere else in life. Usually it's the student who doesn't like the subject (programming), but then...why are they studying IT, exactly? I suppose, if we had problems with "special snowflakes", we might resort to more formality as a defense. But it's not presently necessary in German-speaking culture.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 2) by deadstick on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:10PM
as good of an instructor
How good was your English instructor?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:46PM (14 children)
Granted at 31 I'm one of the older Millennials but I sure as death taxes and Republican corruption did NOT talk to ANY of my teachers this way, ever, let alone a college professor. This sounds like another "hurr hurr let's hate on the kids" clickbait whinge from the past-the-sell-by-date crowd.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:57PM (5 children)
They're refusing to take responsibility for the end game of decades of "trickle down" golden shower economics using the oldest method in the book: scapegoating.
Note also how many old folks rail against how they're teaching the kids these days. However, they just can't seem to put a finger on just WHO is supposed to be responsible for teaching the kids. It's always "somebody else" when the "great generation" wants to rail against "new math" or whatever.
The answer looking back through human history is that the old women and men are the ones responsible for teaching the kids. They've utterly failed in a key area that makes this species different from many other large creatures with complex social structures on the planet. They just can't get over being the "fuck you, I've got mine" generation long enough to do their damned job.
If millennials ever develop a voice, I hope it's "thanks for fucking us over, fuck you & fuck off and die already while we clean this fucking mess up." For starters, social security needs to go. Stop letting the "great generation" live for free. They didn't divert their hard-earned income into investment instruments and retirement accounts? Fuck them. Where they get their next meal isn't my damned business and shouldn't be any other millennial's business either.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:22PM (2 children)
They just can't get over being the "fuck you, I've got mine" generation long enough to do their damned job.
If millennials ever develop a voice, I hope it's "thanks for fucking us over, fuck you & fuck off and die already while we clean this fucking mess up." For starters, social security needs to go. Stop letting the "great generation" live for free. They didn't divert their hard-earned income into investment instruments and retirement accounts? Fuck them. Where they get their next meal isn't my damned business and shouldn't be any other millennial's business either.
I love the smell of irony in the morning!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:24PM
Thats not irony, its just deserts.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:40PM
That's not irony. That's logic. C'mon man, where do you think they learned it from?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:12PM
In essence your point is that when the parent generation screws up the next generation they will not adhere to any inter-generational obligations?
Otoh, many things are hard to affect as an individual and the most efficient means is usually a feet vote.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:32AM
This would sure be a turn of events....
Not only would the kids be living with mom and dad for quite a time after school, mom & dad will be moving in with the kids!
(Score: 2) by Soylentbob on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:14PM (2 children)
From summary:
syllabus: basic rules for how to address teachers and write polite, grammatically correct emails.
Your text:
[...] sure as death taxes and Republican corruption did NOT talk to ANY of my teachers [...]
If you could sprinkle some punctuation onto your posts, I believe your claim ;-) (Sorry, could not resist; I usually have enough spelling- and other errors in my posts as well. But as a tired, slow non-native English reader I had to read three times to understand there is no "death tax", but "death, tax and Republican corruption")
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:27PM (1 child)
the discriminating english user demands the Oxford comma [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 1) by purple_cobra on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:20PM
The "Oxford comma" is an abomination, but it works quite well for fooling people into thinking you've had a more expensive education than is actually the case. ;)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by AthanasiusKircher on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:35PM
I do think the problem is likely exaggerated. Most of the students I've dealt with can figure out how to write an email. Maybe they've just been trained by another prof.
On the other hand, there ARE a striking minority of young people who don't know how to address a professor or even to write a "professional" email. I assume many freshmen students don't have a lot of practice with "business-style email" yet, since younger folks frequently don't use email as often as they used to, preferring some combination of texting and social media for most interactions.
One can go overboard with this though. I had a colleague who viewed EVERY email even with other professor colleagues as sort of formal "letter" that should ALWAYS have a salutation, closing, etc. Even if you were doing a rapid-fire 7-email exchange of setting up a meeting via email or whatever, he would always write: "Dear X, Yes, 3pm would be okay. All best, Y" I thought he was just quirky and would reply, "3pm, great. See you then." with no salutation, etc., until I found out from another colleague that this guy actually thought it was very impolite to write an email like that.
So: (1) most kids still can figure out conventions of etiquette, but (2) there are a significant number of younger people who do always default to very informal or even inappropriate modes of interaction, and (3) there are also profs who can be a little crazy with the old-school etiquette.
(Score: 2) by dyingtolive on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:36PM (3 children)
Yeah, I'm about your age, so I'm only in the Millennial label depending on if I'm leaning the wrong way at any given time, but correspondence was always formal. Always. I can't really imagine doing it any other way. I think it is a 'kids these days' article.
At this point though, I think anyone older than the millennials who's shitting on them is saying more about themselves than they are the generation they're decrying. I mean, yeah, sure, they're (or we're if you prefer) fucked up in a whole lot of a ways, but it's rich coming from the people who couldn't manage to teach them/us how not to be fucked up to start divesting blame, right?
Granted, I still cringe every time one of my friends asks for help changing a tire or I realize I'm the only person on a hiking trip who can use a goddamned compass and map (two actual things that recently happened) but it's not their fault they never learned life skills. It can't be because it can't be their fault they don't even know that they didn't learn those life skills to begin with. Logically, why would they drive in the first place or wander miles out into the woods where there's no signs or cell signal, if they knew they lacked the skills required to support that activity?
If you don't possess a fundamental understanding of what you know and what you don't know, then something very basic fell apart early in the learning cycle. Almost like you never got told "you're wrong" when you should have or something.
Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
(Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:23PM (1 child)
That's actually the problem I have. Parents didn't want me to work too hard; thought it'd teach the wrong lessons. I was supposed to graduate from college and go on to some cushy corporate job doing something ingenious and be rich or something. I really did not think I needed to do more than kill time until I graduated.
It was partly my own fault; I thought to myself, surely they must know something I don't, and didn't question them as often as I should have. It did not occur to me, until I was nearly expelled from college, and they tried to threaten my professors, that perhaps they did not know what they were doing. I realized around then that Responsibility means Doing Things Yourself and was not in fact another word for Obedient.
I often wonder, are there people that had a similar experience, but never had that revelation?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:57AM
Yes, I know two engineering profs that were threatened by the parents of their students. When the profs pushed back, the parents escalated to the dean...the profs had to give in, make the work easier and pass the students.
You are (from what I know) a rare student who figured this out on your own, congratulations (seriously, this is not sarcasm). Helicopter parents are not doing their kids any favors when things go this far, for this long.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:20AM
At the last ten places I've rented (had lots of internships while at college), every single rental agreement forbid me from doing ANY type of auto work anywhere on the property (changing tires often included as an example). How am I supposed to learn and practice basic skills like that when doing so risks me losing a place to live? The generations above me aren't allowing us to learn. You're too concerned someone might accidentally hurt themselves and sue you, then to reduce that risk you threaten worse at us, so of course we stay ignorant.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:20PM (1 child)
It never hurts to re-read this. A little old, but still mainly applicable.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html [catb.org]
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday May 17 2017, @11:59AM
It never hurts to re-read this. A little old, but still mainly applicable.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html [catb.org]
What kind of worthless drivel is that? Everyone knows that you're really supposed to read this instead! [templetons.com]
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:35PM (2 children)
1) being sloppy and "drunken"
2) being informal
Here in Finland we're very informal but that certainly does not mean we are sloppy. We just cut to the chase and talk about things and don't Sir or Mam anybody. I realize this is different in other countries but I for one like this style.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:06PM
Ohmmmy GOD. You just get things done? how horrible! ;-)
(Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:04PM
Perkele!!!