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posted by on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:02PM   Printer-friendly
from the time-travellers dept.

In what is quite an amazing discovery, scientists have confirmed that a bracelet found in Siberia is 40,000 years old. This makes it the oldest piece of jewelry ever discovered, and archeologists have been taken aback by the level of its sophistication.

The bracelet was discovered in a site called the Denisova Cave in Siberia, close to Russia's border with China and Mongolia. It was found next to the bones of extinct animals, such as the wooly mammoth, and other artifacts dating back 125,000 years.

The cave is named after the Denisovan people — a mysterious species of hominins from the Homo genus, who are genetically different from both Homo sapiens and Neanderthals.

[...] Strangely, however, DNA evidence also suggests that, at some point, the Denisovans must have interbred with an as yet unknown and undiscovered species of humans beings.

Skeletal remains show that the Denisovans were probably far more robust and powerful than modern humans, and were, until now, assumed to be a more primitive, archaic type of humans than us.

But, the discovery of the bracelet suggests this was far from true. Amazingly, the skill involved in making this adornment shows a level of technique at least 30,000 years ahead of its time.

It is an astonishing find, having been exquisitely crafted 30,000 years before the Stone Age, which is considered to have begun 10,000 years ago. It is like discovering a 747, made a thousand years before the Wright Brothers ever flew...


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:25PM (12 children)

    by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:25PM (#511073) Journal

    This seems like a really cool find. But... here I was, reading an informative and interesting article that mostly seems based on reasonable science. And then you get this:

    The bracelet was very delicate and was probably worn at special occasions by some important person, such as a Denisovan princess. Shunkov explains; "All jewellery had a magical meaning for ancient people. Bracelets and neck adornments were to protect people from evil spirits, for instance." "But this item, given the complicated technology and "imported" material, obviously belonged to some high ranking person of that society."

    How can we possibly know any of that, much less say what was "probable"? We know basically nothing about the "cultural" aspects of any possible society here, but hey, I guess imagining a "Denisovan princess" dressing up for the local ball with her "magical" bracelet makes for a more fun story.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:13PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:13PM (#511098)

      It is certainly good to retain some objectivity, but interpretation is what humans do. I would have preferred some more cautious phrasing than the initial "probably" but this is probably the only time this person will ever get international attention. Many such academics fall into grandiose predictions, they so desperately want their thoughts and theories to be validated.

      Doesn't seem too far off either, lots of evidence surely points to such patterns, and imported products are often expensive. However, it could also have been a simple gift from a traveler to a cute girl. Mountains and mole hills, everyone should learn critical thinking since we can't guarantee egos will always stay in check!

      • (Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:42PM (1 child)

        by Jeremiah Cornelius (2785) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:42PM (#511209) Journal

        We know NOTHING!

        Here this is demonstrated by a single find upsetting an established "factual" timeline of human history by some 30,000 years. Despite this obvious comeuppance for our supposed understanding of human origins and nature, what do the archaeologists and authors do? Immediately speculate on the function and status of the bracelet-wearer, with nothing other than our projections of elite hierarchies, which weren't manifest until the structuring of human communities around pastoralism and agriculture.

        Then again? Maybe THESE go back another 30-40K years! We know nothing.

        Nothing.

        The really ludicrous "Denisovan princess" statement is a manifold absurdity. It was as likely to be worn by a "Denisovan RuPaul"! Or, more consistent with the anachronism and ignorance of this scholarly speculation, a "Denisovan Wilma Flintstone".

        --
        You're betting on the pantomime horse...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:14PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:14PM (#511271)

          We know NOTHING!

          True, but if we don't know what we don't know then how can we know not project our own biases? Where do we draw the line ... at the truth? Is that what science has come to? ;-)

          The really ludicrous "Denisovan princess" statement is a manifold absurdity.

          I've been called worse that "Denisovan princess" ... this week ... by members or my family ... and one of my cats.

    • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:21PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:21PM (#511102)

      How can we possibly know any of that, much less say what was "probable"? We know basically nothing about the "cultural" aspects of any possible society here

      What we possibly know for sure it's that they elected Trump shortly before they went extinct.
      Yuuuge mistake, he disclosed confidential info to those Russkies, who... err... (interbred is the term, yes)... so, who interbred in the ass the Denisovans in a very multicultural manner. Probably...

    • (Score: 5, Funny) by Gaaark on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:18PM

      by Gaaark (41) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:18PM (#511136) Journal

      Disney's new movie: the Denisovan Princess, starring Kaitlin Jenner

      --
      --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:24PM (1 child)

      by nitehawk214 (1304) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:24PM (#511142)

      Or how did they even know the person was particularly important.

      His next invention is a "Jump to Conclusions" mat.

      --
      "Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:29PM

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:29PM (#511658)

        These are the commonly accepted jumps to conclusions, made in little steps by all the people who came before him in the field - he's just repeating the accumulated assumptions of his predecessors.

        If you were to jump half that distance in a different direction, you'd be labeled a heretic idiot maverick outlier fringe junk scientist. But, if you've spent your life reading everybody else's published guesses, then you're well educated and entitled to make a tiny little assumption of your own that gets incorporated into the future group-think.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:26PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:26PM (#511190)

      Far into the future, at a time when plastic stuff has long been forgotten. An archaeologist finds an archaeological site which comes from our time, much older than any other sites known at that time, and digs out a rubber duck.

      Excerpt from the article he writes afterwards:

      At the digging place we found a figurine in the form of a duck, made of some material like none we have seen before. It without doubt was very valuable, and therefore it must have been owned by a very rich person, probably a king or other nobility. On the other hand, the style was not too sophisticated, so it probably wasn't a decorative item. The only logical conclusion therefore is that it was a devotional item of a hitherto unknown cult of a duck god. We conjecture that it is related to the lost myths of "Donald Duck" that were mentioned in some ancient texts.

      • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:35PM (1 child)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:35PM (#511198) Journal

        If plastic is long forgotten, ducks are probably also long forgotten.

        Writings about Donald Duck would make sense as a myth, since no such creature known as a duck would exist.

        I wonder if at that point in time they would still use COBOL?

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:56PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:56PM (#511334)

          Of course. But it will be Lisp all the way down underneath.

      • (Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:30PM

        by wonkey_monkey (279) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:30PM (#511359) Homepage
        --
        systemd is Roko's Basilisk
    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:21PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:21PM (#511651)

      When you start with "a mysterious species of Hominins... from 40,000 years ago" and you follow up with "All..." anything, the fantasy flag has been raised high.

      As far as these guys know, the Atlantis myths could have descended from the Denisovans, they might have had a safe space to live with easy food and shelter and they could have spent a lot of their time making complex objects and travelling around to find interesting things to work with.

      But, commonly accepted dogma has been circulated long enough that "experts in the field" have internalized it as fact, rather than widely embraced theories - and it comes out in quotes like the above.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:30PM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:30PM (#511076) Journal

    Didn't we recently have an article about Denisovan man?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/science/inuit-greenland-denisovans.html?_r=0 [nytimes.com]

    https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=16/12/22/0810231 [soylentnews.org]

    So, maybe strictly speaking, the Innuit aren't Denisovans, but there are living descendantes of Denisovan man. Hey - maybe those "archaic" people weren't so different from us, after all?

  • (Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:34PM (7 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @01:34PM (#511079)

    It is an astonishing find, having been exquisitely crafted 30,000 years before the Stone Age, which is considered to have begun 10,000 years ago. It is like discovering a 747, made a thousand years before the Wright Brothers ever flew...

    And in 30,000 years time a human who believes civilization is only 10,000 years old will discover a head garment worn by pre-civilized proto-humans. It will bear the strange symbols of an ancient language: "Make America Great Again".

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:15PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:15PM (#511101)

      On a serious note, given the short time frame of modern history it is pretty amazing that we should think written language and more modern technology is such a new thing. Seems quite likely that human civilization has risen and fallen many a time in the last million years.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:31PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:31PM (#511106)

        Yeah, well, when their time machine predicted that an idiot who uses Scotch tape on his ties and can't tie them evenly [time.com] (not the original link from yesterday, but thanks to the AC who brought up #tiegate, which I will now call this, unless #fashiongate is better, oh hell, I'm no good at #gategategate nomenclature) and eats pizza and fried chicken with a fork [theguardian.com] (argh! i can't even!!eleven!)....

        Anyway, when they got that result from their time machine, it's pretty clear that the Denisovans and Neanderthals left for space aboard giant sleeper ships to avoid the embarrassment of having to share the planet with such a complete devolution of hominids that these self-styled "sapiens" were becoming. They also made sure to hide any evidence that there had previously been a technological, space-faring civilization on this planet with the hope that these "sapiens" would just kill themselves and delete their accounts, after which they'd return along with the Silurians and found the First Great and Bountiful Terran (not "human" you racists!!!!) Empire.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:14PM (3 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:14PM (#511232)

          Interesting story about the pizza with a fork. It depends on the pizza, you can't always use your hands with deepdish without getting messy. In general I eat without any utensils (including salads, steaks, etc) then just wash up after, but have eaten pizza with a fork.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:36PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:36PM (#511287)

            Clearly you are doing many things wrong.

            Let me ask you this now that I have your attention. Are you now eating or have you ever eaten a taco bowl in the United States?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:56PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @07:56PM (#511335)

              No, the closest is probably the one time I tried to go to a taco bell but couldn't understand what they were saying. It wasn't spanish, I just didn't recognize 75% of the words they were saying. I just wanted a cheese quesadilla...

              • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:26PM

                by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:26PM (#511655)

                I used to eat Taco Bell tacos fairly regularly. Then they came out with the "Chalupa" - my first Chalupa gave me food poisoning so powerful that I have not returned to Taco Bell since.

                --
                🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:23PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday May 18 2017, @12:23PM (#511654)

      Archaeologists 30,000 years in the future will likely find the "crazy layer" - everything proceeded normally, more or less predictably for 4 billion years, then all hell broke loose for about 500... nobody remembers anything from that time anymore, but it clearly was a time of unimaginable chaos.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:15PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:15PM (#511100)

    It is like discovering a Tesla, made a thousand years before the Model T ever drove.

    • (Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:52PM

      by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:52PM (#511118)

      Theres not really all that much, so if you went to the landfill and came back with two random items, even if carbon dated and identified correctly, the narrative might not make any sense. I donno if you dug up a 1930s console vacuum tube radio and my old pruning shears? Of course that makes things even weirder in that American high tech culture in 1930 made that radio whereas my old pruning shears were Chinese light industry culture in 1990 so maybe subculturally speaking the radio was ahead of time.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:12PM

      by fyngyrz (6567) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:12PM (#511132) Journal

      It's like discovering a very old bracelet. Made by individuals now understood to be able to shape a stone into roundish form, and drill them to pass a fiber through.

      It is, we are told, considerably older than the previously-current assumptions would have allowed for.

      This conclusion may be in error, as dating things that old is not all that easily done, and found-context isn't what it might be hoped to be, as animals, including humans, move things around, dig things up, and bury them, with great disregard for the convenience of future archeologists.

      That's what it's like once you discard all the bullshit.

      I should start a science site. Of course, no one would come for factual headlines like "Archeologists find broken bracelet, think it might be old." So perhaps not. :)

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:58PM (9 children)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @02:58PM (#511125)

    Strangely, however, DNA evidence also suggests that, at some point, the Denisovans must have interbred with an as yet unknown and undiscovered species of humans beings.

    Space aliens

    when they studied the diameters of the bracelet, they found that the rotational speed of the drill must have been quite high, and with minimal fluctuations.

    The odds of this not being a plant are rapidly dropping. So it was made by a dude with a cordless drill in 2016. OK then. I suppose if the 2016 dude was a Denisovan then thats OK. They should neutron activate it or xray zap it and see what kind of metal smooshed in the hole. If its a modern carbide or a modern high speed steel...

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:49PM (7 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:49PM (#511160) Journal

      But, but, but - DNA and carbon dating!!! You can't fake that! Wait until the DNA and carbon become parents!!

      LMAO, Some of these articles are interesting, but ridiculous at the same time. I like the suggestion above of a jump to conclusions mat.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:57PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @03:57PM (#511167)

        Yeah, carbon dating is bunk. The Earth is 6,000 years old. They can't even get that basic figure right.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:12PM (3 children)

          by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:12PM (#511178)

          I was talking to a guy in meatspace who got me pretty good for a couple minutes last weekend because he claims the carbon atoms are in fact eleventy bazillion years old or WTF the physicists and astronomers say, but his shtick was the physical arrangement as "Earth" is only 6000 years old. Kinda like the atoms that make up our bodies are a lot older than we are.

          Damn. That's a good one. How can this debate be that old and tired, and I never heard that one before? I was stunned, and impressed.

          After a couple minutes I tossed back the whole sedimentary rock thing and erosion / grand canyon etc, keeping it moving.

          There's still evolution (LOL) going on in the arguments for creation science. I was impressed.

          Anyway a halfway serious on topic point to be made is caves is caves and if my son camps in a cave formerly inhabited by natives 3000 years ago and loses his ipad, you know that 100000 years from now some archeologist is going to be mystified that 103000 years ago people were using ipads that officially were not invented until 100000 years ago and there's gonna be PHDs written and defended on the topic and all that happened is a cave is just a cave and two groups happened to use it and the junk inside it at different times.

          • (Score: 1) by dvader on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:14PM (2 children)

            by dvader (1936) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:14PM (#511270)

            Next time you could tell him the earth is actually just 5 years old. It is the fourth version of a simulation that always starts in 2012. The first three versions did not include a Higgs boson which made scientists very upset about not finding one, causing widespread panic and riots, ultimately leading to nuclear war and total annihilation.

            All your memories, historical records and archeological evidence was just programmed to be there (obviously).

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:40PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:40PM (#511290)

              What? I was certain we were on the sixth version by now. Anyway, I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next. How do you figure it's the fourth?

              • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:14PM

                by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:14PM (#511345) Journal

                He only counts major versions. We are at version 4.1 now.

                --
                The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
      • (Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:03PM (1 child)

        by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:03PM (#511171)

        Oh that stuff's probably real, and a genuine Denisovan probably carried it around and everything but some disgruntled grunt didn't get accepted to grad school and rants "I am archeologist I don't want to become bartender in Moscow the admissions committee can go F itself with my empty vodka bottle where is my cordless drill I teach these committee member bastards a thing or two now"

        I mean isn't that how some Russian CS student stole the USA election from Hillary, he just like copied the election on to his flash drive, then said "I know unix" and played some flight simulator game on the file system and re-uploaded "the election" to "the election server" and ta da Trump won because his election wasn't stolen.

        Of the two, its probably a more likely narrative that some drunk Russian bastard polished off a vodka bottle, pissed in the potted plants, and as a practical joke he drilled a hole making a bracelet for his oneitis 3d waifu wanna be girlfriend, and passed out forgetting he ever did something that stupid. Maybe they have security cameras to collaborate.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:16PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:16PM (#511347)

          Seek help.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:39PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:39PM (#511243)

      when they studied the diameters of the bracelet, they found that the rotational speed of the drill must have been quite high, and with minimal fluctuations.

      Beads made from a fossilized vertebrae, cut, rounded and sanded? Preexisted holes in stone ftw.

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by inertnet on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:37PM (3 children)

    by inertnet (4071) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:37PM (#511242) Journal
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:47PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @06:47PM (#511296)

      also, both articles date from May 2015

      • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:15PM (1 child)

        by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:15PM (#511346) Journal

        But how reliable are the article dating methods?

        --
        The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:41PM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:41PM (#511408) Journal

          It's not very reliable, unless is double blind dating.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Wednesday May 17 2017, @08:23PM

    It is an astonishing find, having been exquisitely crafted 30,000 years before the Stone Age, which is considered to have begun 10,000 years ago. It is like discovering a 747, made a thousand years before the Wright Brothers ever flew...

    The Stone Age [wikipedia.org] (or the Paleolithic Period, Paleo=old;lithic=stone) began some 2.6 million years ago.

    I assume that the submitter was referring to the New Stone Age [wikipedia.org] (or the Neolithic Period, Neo=new;lithic=stone) which began circa 12,000 years ago.

    The only really interesting thing is that anyone is surprised that a species five times older than Homo Sapiens might have developed certain skills and technology sooner than we did.

    It's a fascinating find for sure, but it might be helpful to get both our time frames straight and tone down our homo sapiens-centric views a bit.

    After all, we're still around and the Denisovans aren't. Perhaps we should give them some props.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
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