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posted by on Thursday May 25 2017, @05:48AM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the the-more-you-tighten-your-grip... dept.

There's been a good deal of ongoing discussion about Google AMP – Accelerated Mobile Pages.

Quite a few high-profile web developers have this year weighted in with criticism and some, following a Google conference dedicated to AMP, have cautioned users about diving in with both feet.

These, in my view, don't go far enough in stating the problem and I feel this needs to be said very clearly: Google's AMP is bad – bad in a potentially web-destroying way. Google AMP is bad news for how the web is built, it's bad news for publishers of credible online content, and it's bad news for consumers of that content. Google AMP is only good for one party: Google. Google, and possibly, purveyors of fake news.

[...] What it is, is a way for Google to obfuscate your website, usurp your content and remove any lingering notions of personal credibility from the web.

If that appeals to you, here's what you need to do. First, get rid of all your HTML and render your content in a subset of HTML that Google has approved along with a few tags it invented. Because what do those pesky standards boards know? Trust Google, it knows what it's doing. And if you don't, consider yourself not part of the future of search results.

Why a subset of HTML you ask? Well, mostly because web developers suck at their jobs and have loaded the web with a ton of JavaScript no one wants. Can't fault Google for wanting to change that. That part I can support. The less JavaScript the better.

So far AMP actually sounds appealing. Except that, hilariously, to create an AMP page you have to load a, wait for it, yes a JavaScript file from Google. Pinboard founder Maciej Cegłowski already recreated the Google AMP demo page without the Google AMP JavaScript and, unsurprisingly, it's faster than Google's version.

-- submitted from IRC


Original Submission

Related Stories

Google to Enable "Dynamic Emails" Using Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) 46 comments

Google makes emails more dynamic with AMP for Email

Google today officially launched AMP for Email, its effort to turn emails from static documents into dynamic, web page-like experiences. AMP for Email is coming to Gmail, but other major email providers like Yahoo Mail (which shares its parent company with TechCrunch), Outlook and Mail.ru will also support AMP emails.

[...] With AMP for Email, those messages become interactive. That means you'll be able to RSVP to an event right from the message, fill out a questionnaire, browse through a store's inventory or respond to a comment — all without leaving your web-based email client.

Some of the companies that already support this new format are Booking.com, Despegar, Doodle, Ecwid, Freshworks, Nexxt, OYO Rooms, Pinterest, and redBus. If you regularly get emails from these companies, then chances are you'll receive an interactive email from them in the coming weeks.

[...] [Not] everybody is going to like this (including our own Devin Coldewey).

Also at The Verge, 9to5Google, and Engadget:

As you might imagine, Google is determined to keep this secure. It reviews senders before they're allowed to send AMP-based email, and relatively few will support it out of the gate (including Twilio Sendgrid, Litmus and SparkPost).

Previously: Google Bringing Accelerated Mobile Pages to Email

Related: Kill Google AMP Before It Kills the Web
Google Attempting to Standardize Features of Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP)
Google AMP Can Go To Hell
Google Moving to Relinquish Control Over Accelerated Mobile Pages


Original Submission

Google AMP Can Go To Hell 69 comments

Web consultant Barry Adams has written a blog post about the problem with Google's Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) and how to fight against it being shoehorned into the WWW.

Let’s talk about Accelerated Mobile Pages, or AMP for short. AMP is a Google pet project that purports to be “an open-source initiative aiming to make the web better for all”. While there is a lot of emphasis on the official AMP site about its open source nature, the fact is that over 90% of contributions to this project come from Google employees, and it was initiated by Google. So let’s be real: AMP is a Google project.

Google is also the reason AMP sees any kind of adoption at all. Basically, Google has forced websites – specifically news publishers – to create AMP versions of their articles. For publishers, AMP is not optional; without AMP, a publisher’s articles will be extremely unlikely to appear in the Top Stories carousel on mobile search in Google.

And due to the popularity of mobile search compared to desktop search, visibility in Google’s mobile search results is a must for publishers that want to survive in this era of diminishing revenue and fierce online competition for eyeballs.

If publishers had a choice, they’d ignore AMP entirely. It already takes a lot of resources to keep a news site running smoothly and performing well. AMP adds the extra burden of creating separate AMP versions of articles, and keeping these articles compliant with the ever-evolving standard.

So AMP is being kept alive artificially. AMP survives not because of its merits as a project, but because Google forces websites to either adopt AMP or forego large amounts of potential traffic.

And Google is not satisfied with that. No, Google wants more from AMP. A lot more.

AMP is also purported to throw in an 8-second delay to punish those that do not toe the line.

Earlier on SN:
Google Attempting to Standardize Features of Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) (2018)
Kill Google AMP Before It Kills the Web (2017)


Original Submission

Google Moving to Relinquish Control Over Accelerated Mobile Pages 7 comments

Google may be relinquishing control of its controversial Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) project:

The project has been led by Malte Ubl, a senior staff engineer working on Google's Javascript infrastructure projects, who has until now held effective unilateral control over the project.

In the wake of all of this criticism, the AMP project announced today that it would reform its governance, replacing Ubl as the exclusive tech lead with a technical steering committee comprised of companies invested in the success in the project. Notably, the project's intention has an "...end goal of not having any company sit on more than a third of the seats." In addition, the project will create an advisory board and working groups to shepherd the project's work.

The project is also expected to move to a foundation in the future. These days, there are a number of places such a project could potentially reside, including the Apache Software Foundation and the Mozilla Foundation.

The AMP Contributor Summit 2018 will take place at Google in Mountain View, California on September 25 and 26, 2018.

Previously: Kill Google AMP Before It Kills the Web
Google Acquires Relay Media to Convert Ordinary Web Pages to AMP Pages
Google Bringing Accelerated Mobile Pages to Email
Google Attempting to Standardize Features of Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP)
Google AMP Can Go To Hell


Original Submission

Google Attempting to Standardize Features of Accelerated Mobile Pages (AMP) 33 comments

Google promises publishers an alternative to AMP

Google's AMP project is not uncontroversial. Users often love it because it makes mobile sites load almost instantly. Publishers often hate it because they feel like they are giving Google too much control in return for better placement on its search pages. Now Google proposes to bring some of the lessons it learned from AMP to the web as a whole. Ideally, this means that users will profit from Google's efforts and see faster non-AMP sites across the web (and not just in their search engines).

Publishers, however, will once again have to adopt a whole new set of standards for their sites, but with this, Google is also giving them a new path to be included in the increasingly important Top Stories carousel on its mobile search results pages.

"Based on what we learned from AMP, we now feel ready to take the next step and work to support more instant-loading content not based on AMP technology in areas of Google Search designed for this, like the Top Stories carousel," AMP tech lead Malte Ubl writes today. "This content will need to follow a set of future web standards and meet a set of objective performance and user experience criteria to be eligible."

Also at Search Engine Land and The Verge.

Related: Kill Google AMP Before It Kills the Web
Google Acquires Relay Media to Convert Ordinary Web Pages to AMP Pages
Google Bringing Accelerated Mobile Pages to Email


Original Submission

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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @05:59AM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @05:59AM (#515308)

    If only TFS actually describes what the fuck it is getting all worked up about.

    • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:06AM (6 children)

      by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:06AM (#515310) Journal

      Oh good grief. Just... I hate to say it but... Google it.

      Or don't. Life is short, web surfing is hard. Here: https://www.ampproject.org [ampproject.org]

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:12AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:12AM (#515313)

        All that verbiage in the summary, but you have to "google it" to figure out what it's yepping about?

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by fyngyrz on Thursday May 25 2017, @03:10PM (2 children)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday May 25 2017, @03:10PM (#515493) Journal

          All that verbiage in the summary, but you have to "google it" to figure out what it's yepping about?

          No, I didn't have to Google it. You had to Google it. The summary clearly identified what it was talking about, even deconstructing the TLA, AMP. (Should I have linked TLA for you?) From the summary:

          Google AMP – Accelerated Mobile Pages.

          Yeah, there could have been a link in the summary. No, it wasn't a serious issue, because in the very first line it told you exactly what you needed to know if you needed to find out more. It also said - accurately - that "there's been a good deal of discussion of AMP", which is true (and is why I didn't have to Google it.)

          It took the complainant more time to complain about it than it would have to drag, copy, hit Google, paste, and click search. Or on a Mac, drag, right-click, and select "Search with Google" from the context menu. It was a pitifully lame and lazy complaint. Should Javascript have been linked? Google itself? HTML? Fake news? Web Developers? Just how much of the basics have to be presented wrapped in ribbons?

          Look. Learn to use the (incredibly easy to use) tools at your fingertips. It's a good thing. The time to complain about the summary is when it's incoherent and you can't figure out how to get up to speed on the things it's talking about. That's not the case here, at least, not WRT AMP.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:37PM (1 child)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:37PM (#515541) Homepage Journal

            "It was a pitifully lame and lazy complaint."

            THIS IS SPARTA!!! WE HAVE NO PITY FOR THE LAME OR THE LAZY!! THROW HIS ASS TO THE WOLVES!

            Oh, wait. This isn't Sparta, is it? Soylent is New York, right? My mistake. Just put his ass on a table at the clinic, play some soothing music, and let him die. Painlessly, if you insist.

            --
            “If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.” ― George S. Patton on Ukraine
            • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:23PM

              by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:23PM (#515685) Journal

              THIS IS SPARTA!!! WE HAVE NO PITY FOR THE LAME OR THE LAZY!! THROW HIS ASS TO THE WOLVES!

              Sometimes I wish it was Sparta.

              Sad, and a terrible reflection of my inner thought processes, but true.

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Thursday May 25 2017, @11:20AM (1 child)

        by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Thursday May 25 2017, @11:20AM (#515389) Homepage
        Looks beautiful! http://fatphil.org/tmp/amp_rules.png
        --
        I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @10:23PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @10:23PM (#515735)

          I like Google's cached pages because I can add markup, highlighting stuff that is particularly applicable to a point I am trying to make.

          I find the &strip=0 version of the page to often be especially desirable.
          Those remove (unnecessary) scripts, (unnecessary, IMO) images, etc.

          In those pages, Google also strips out some tags.
          Accessibility guidelines say that (for blind people who use screenreaders) you're supposed to use em and strong (instead of i and b).
          Google strips out em and strong from those pages (and doesn't replace them with the tags which it chooses to support).

          I've noticed that Google also strips out dd and dt.
          This subset of stuff that they choose to respect sometimes makes those pages look goofy compared to the original.

          This is what Google AMP will bring more of (as your screenshot demonstrates).

          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by butthurt on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:57AM (2 children)

      by butthurt (6141) on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:57AM (#515345) Journal

      The Accelerated Mobile Pages Project (AMP) is an online publishing format, created by Google as a competitor to Facebook's Instant Articles, that is similar to HTML and optimized for mobile web browsing. Using special code, AMP-HTML is intended to help webpages load rapidly when clicked in the Google search results pages, though results have varied. After a technical preview, the service was launched in February 2016.

      -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_Mobile_Pages [wikipedia.org]

      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:31PM (1 child)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:31PM (#515411)

        Can we please get worked up about Facebook's Instant Articles at the same time - at least group the similar demons into the same discussion?

        --
        Україна не входить до складу Росії.
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by urza9814 on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:05PM

          by urza9814 (3954) on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:05PM (#515672) Journal

          Can we please get worked up about Facebook's Instant Articles at the same time - at least group the similar demons into the same discussion?

          Or Facebook in general. I mean really the core complaint can be summarized as: "People are going to use one website and consider that the entirety of 'the web'"...but people have already been doing that with Facebook for *years*...

  • (Score: 3, Informative) by cafebabe on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:10AM (10 children)

    by cafebabe (894) on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:10AM (#515312) Journal

    I investigated Google AMP and found that the general concept was good but the detail and its reason for being is only to Google's advantage.

    Microsoft's Desktop Bridge [soylentnews.org] is in the same category. Good architecture but it exists primilary to consolidate the power of a corrupt multi-national corporation.

    Anyhow, if someone proposed more open, long-term schemes (rather than coupled to the current features of Android or Windows) then I'd be keen to use them.

    --
    1702845791×2
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:05PM (9 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:05PM (#515463)

      Just build proper webpages with HTML and CSS and stick to the standards.

      • (Score: 3, Disagree) by Pino P on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:48PM (8 children)

        by Pino P (4721) on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:48PM (#515480) Journal

        Just build proper webpages with HTML and CSS

        That's fine if you want a static web page. But a lot of users demand dynamic features, and many such features require script to be practical. In particular, a form submission and full page reload for each interaction isn't always practical. In addition, without script to measure scroll position, how should a site that has sponsors reassure its sponsors that viewers are seeing their messages?

        and stick to the standards.

        That depends on how you define "standards", particularly when your page relies on standards that browser publishers have failed to implement according to caniuse.com.

        • SVG is a W3C Recommendation, but IE 11 and Edge reportedly have severe defects in scaling SVG files.
        • CSS Grid is a W3C Candidate Recommendation, but IE 11 and Edge still use an outdated version and hide it behind a proprietary prefix.
        • Opus audio is a standard (RFC 6716) but completely unsupported in Apple WebKit. Nor does Apple WebKit support any video codecs with a royalty-free encoder.
        • <input type="date"> is part of the HTML Living Standard but not available in IE 11, Firefox, or Safari for macOS.
        • Custom protocol handling, such as allowing a webmail site to handle URIs with the mailto: scheme, is part of the HTML Living Standard. But IE 11, Edge, and Apple WebKit fail to support it.
        • (Score: 3, Informative) by fyngyrz on Thursday May 25 2017, @03:17PM (2 children)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday May 25 2017, @03:17PM (#515495) Journal

          But a lot of users demand dynamic features

          AMP is not required to provide dynamic features.

          Also, and of course this is a choice, but you don't have to provide dynamic features; those users aren't the boss of you. You can provide a fast, efficient web page instead. People really like those, too. Just an observation. :)

          That depends on how you define "standards"

          Well, personally, I don't define "standards" as "some idea Google just had."

          particularly when your page relies on standards that browser publishers have failed to implement according to caniuse.com.

          Sounds like someone is relying on things that need fixed, not things that need replaced with something else that does not enjoy broad support.

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by Pino P on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:08PM (1 child)

            by Pino P (4721) on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:08PM (#515525) Journal

            AMP is not required to provide dynamic features.

            I wasn't implying that it was. I was only pointing out that some features require script, not just HTML and CSS.

            Also, and of course this is a choice, but you don't have to provide dynamic features; those users aren't the boss of you.

            Users are the boss of any site operator that relies on revenue from users or from advertisers to cover the cost of continuing to maintain the site.

            • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:20PM

              by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:20PM (#515681) Journal

              Users are the boss of any site operator that relies on revenue from users or from advertisers to cover the cost of continuing to maintain the site.

              At this point, the discussion would turn to strength of one's ethics vs. indirect coercion to create things somewhere in the range of annoying to outright malware.

              I'll spare you. I'm sure you can have that conversation entirely on your own. :)

        • (Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:10PM (4 children)

          by sjames (2882) on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:10PM (#515528) Journal

          how should a site that has sponsors reassure its sponsors that viewers are seeing their messages?

          Translation, without scripting, how can they simulate having an asshole standing next to each reader flipping the page back to the ad while they're trying to read? The answer is, they shouldn't. Better placement of the ad on the page in the first place is less annoying and obviates the need for the scripting.

          As for dynamic content, there's no reason it can't be done well and rely on standards and proper CSS to render. The problem isn't the use of scripting, the problem is using 23 layers of opaque scripting and one trick pony type frameworksIn other words, quit using frameworks and cookbooks without understanding. Actually learn the scripting language (Javascript for now) and how to program and it will be fine. Cargo cult programming is not and has never been a good idea. Shoddy work produces shoddy results, film at 11. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

          There have always been crappy browsers out there. There has always been a subset of HTML that pretty much works for all of them. If you need to get fancier than that, you just have to accept that not all browsers will be able to handle it. Some idiot wants to join the Indy 500 on a 5 wheeled pennyfarthing powered by squirrels. Do we change the rules of the race to allow it or do we just accept that he's a kook? (and yes, a MS browser is definitely a 5 wheeled pennyfarthing powered by squirrels)

          • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:03PM (3 children)

            by Pino P (4721) on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:03PM (#515630) Journal

            Better placement of the ad on the page in the first place is less annoying

            Let me state it more precisely: If the placement is below the fold, then without scripting, how can anyone know whether the scroll position has reached the placement?

            There have always been crappy browsers out there.

            Users of iOS are more likely than users of Android to spend real money using the device, both on apps[1] and on physical goods.[2] But users of iOS tend to be stuck with browsers that are behind the curve because all wrap Apple WebKit.

            Some idiot wants to join the Indy 500 on a 5 wheeled pennyfarthing powered by squirrels. Do we change the rules of the race to allow it or do we just accept that he's a kook?

            In cases where rich and kook are correlated, the cost-benefit analysis is more likely to conclude "change the rules".

            [1] "Apple App Store revenue per user vs. Android" by Kif Leswing [businessinsider.com]
            [2] "iOS Devices Accounted for 77% of Mobile E-Commerce Orders During the Holidays" by Jim Tanous [macobserver.com]

            • (Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:21PM (2 children)

              by sjames (2882) on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:21PM (#515683) Journal

              I can't think of much in e-commerce that webkit can't handle just fine. Quit trying to be whiz-bang and just sell the product and things will be fine.

              How ever did newspapers and magazines ever manage to sell ads without scripting, I wonder? But if that's all you wanna know, it should't require multiple frameworks and 30 seconds to load. Just a few simple lines of code should do it.

              In cases where rich and kook are correlated, the cost-benefit analysis is more likely to conclude "change the rules".

              Only if you don't count drastically reduced attendance next year as a cost.

              • (Score: 2) by Pino P on Friday May 26 2017, @04:50AM (1 child)

                by Pino P (4721) on Friday May 26 2017, @04:50AM (#515834) Journal

                How ever did newspapers and magazines ever manage to sell ads without scripting, I wonder?

                By not having competition from another medium that promises eye-catching animation and detailed analytics. Notice how many newspapers have folded, merged, or become web-only over the past decade and a half. (Citations can be found in the article "Decline of newspapers" [wikipedia.org].)

                • (Score: 2) by sjames on Friday May 26 2017, @10:56PM

                  by sjames (2882) on Friday May 26 2017, @10:56PM (#516179) Journal

                  Newspapers still manage to sell ads, their problem is selling newspapers in a world where you can read the AP and UPI stories practically anywhere.

                  But, as I said if you're just seeing who looks below the fold the scripting can be very simple and lightweight IF you know what you're doing.

  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:25AM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @06:25AM (#515316)

    This sounds bad! In my opinion, I cannot even post under my actual username, so here I am, Runaway1956 (2926) posting as AC to make the point that if we do not stop these foreigners from being able to just get Google account and post as if they were natural born Americans, that the entire system of American government based on the separation of the lesser races will fail! So I say, Bad Google! Bad! Google! and bring me my sports results and animal husbandry pron!!

    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:14AM (7 children)

      by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:14AM (#515335) Journal

      I am Runaway, too! Or Runaway1956 (2926) trying to point out to everyone that that pederast, aristarchus, is trying to get my shadow-banned under the new Code of Conduct that The Mighty Buzzard had implemented without telling any one! This is one of the "unwritten rules" of which an AC mentioned not long ago. So mod me up, please! And mod up aristarchus, just to show him that his Potemkin village attack cannot succeed.

      --
      #Freearistarchus, again!!!!!1!!
      • (Score: 0, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:18AM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:18AM (#515336)

        The obvious rebuttal, is that there are only two Soylentils left, Runaway and aristarchus, locked in an infinite cycle of contrapunctal ideological reparte- No, that is just silly. Where is jmorris when we need him?

        • (Score: 2) by kazzie on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:13AM (1 child)

          by kazzie (5309) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:13AM (#515349)

          The obvious rebuttal, is that there are only two Soylentils left, Runaway and aristarchus

          Which one are you?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 26 2017, @03:42AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 26 2017, @03:42AM (#515817)

            jmorris? But he has publicly stated that he never posts AC, which of course is good enough for me, since I am jmorris. Or at least I claim to be. My, the quality of SoylentNews has fallen of late. Not even worth it to right-wing troll anymore.

        • (Score: 3, Funny) by inertnet on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:11AM (1 child)

          by inertnet (4071) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:11AM (#515362)

          I thought he ran away and we're the only one left.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:29PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:29PM (#515536)

            Is that the Imperial (Royal) We? I ask, because you make it singular with "we're the only one left.)

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:57AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:57AM (#515372)

          What about khallow? Perhaps the Market has eliminated him.

      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:10PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @04:10PM (#515527)

        Feeling pretty good today, Ari? You dove deep into that intergluteal cleft last night?

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by cockroach on Thursday May 25 2017, @11:01AM (17 children)

    by cockroach (2266) on Thursday May 25 2017, @11:01AM (#515387)

    a subset of HTML that Google has approved along with a few tags it invented

    Sounds like the golden days of IE.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by FatPhil on Thursday May 25 2017, @11:32AM (15 children)

      by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Thursday May 25 2017, @11:32AM (#515390) Homepage
      And nutscrape, it's always been the way; sure there's a standard, but we need a unique selling point, so need something extra.
      --
      I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
      • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:12PM (14 children)

        by kaszz (4211) on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:12PM (#515400) Journal

        So how will we screw this domination attempt?

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:22PM (13 children)

          Not use it.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 4, Funny) by FatPhil on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:40PM

            by FatPhil (863) <reversethis-{if.fdsa} {ta} {tnelyos-cp}> on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:40PM (#515415) Homepage
            Best of all, in order to actively, wherever possible, not use it, all you have to do is ... nothing! I'm up for that kind of protest.

            Bring me my coffee cup, someone, it's on the table next to me, IIRC.
            --
            I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
          • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:51PM (7 children)

            by kaszz (4211) on Thursday May 25 2017, @12:51PM (#515429) Journal

            The problem is you have hordes of idiots.. led by a group of psychopaths. But sure, maybe it's possible to make software to refuse to touch any AMP coded pages..

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday May 25 2017, @01:53PM (2 children)

              I meant don't code pages using it. If you don't, there's no problem.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:28PM (1 child)

                by kaszz (4211) on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:28PM (#515473) Journal

                The problems comes when others do it or users demand it.

                • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:04PM

                  by bob_super (1357) on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:04PM (#515631)

                  If users demand it, remind them they're just holding their browser wrong.

            • (Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:01PM (1 child)

              by urza9814 (3954) on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:01PM (#515700) Journal

              But sure, maybe it's possible to make software to refuse to touch any AMP coded pages..

              AMP pages are served directly from Google's domain. Maybe it's possible to blacklist Google.com? Are you implying that it's difficult?

              I mean yes, it's a CDN so IP blocking it takes a bit of extra effort (That's the route I've been going), but you could easily just blacklist lookups against the domain too. If you *only* want to block AMP and not all of Google all you'd have to do is route through a proxy that filters the requested URLs; you could probably configure Privoxy to do that in a couple hours.

              • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:28PM

                by kaszz (4211) on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:28PM (#515716) Journal

                My idea was akin to a "usenet death penalty". Maybe it's not possible. But I got the idea when there was a craze for weird .tld's and to add to the injury puny-code to handle non-english domain names. If bind refuses them.. well no gain.

            • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday May 26 2017, @07:11AM (1 child)

              > The problem is you have hordes of idiots.. led by a group of psychopaths.

              You should set that sentence up as a keyboard macro, because I can imagine it's incredibly useful for almost every story. I might even set it up as my signature, and then just start blank posting!
              --
              I know I'm God, because every time I pray to him, I find I'm talking to myself.
              • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Friday May 26 2017, @10:22PM

                by kaszz (4211) on Friday May 26 2017, @10:22PM (#516166) Journal

                Just describing how a lot of problems is generated ;)
                Most people won't be very smart it's just nature or there would never be geniuses. Bell curve and all that. Psychopaths will have no problem to do anything to get power and take most risks to do that. So they end up high. The exception being when they can put a puppet in a position to sacrifice should anything go wrong. Educating the public and ensuring power sharing and rapid removal upon misbehavior should be good countermeasures. But then, who makes the rules..

          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Pino P on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:55PM (3 children)

            by Pino P (4721) on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:55PM (#515484) Journal

            And watch your visitors dry up once the most popular search engines and news aggregators are boosting the visibility of AMP documents [searchengineland.com] over plain HTML documents.

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:32PM (2 children)

              by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday May 25 2017, @08:32PM (#515690) Journal

              And watch your visitors dry up once the most popular search engines and news aggregators are boosting the visibility of AMP documents [searchengineland.com] over plain HTML documents.

              That will only happen if there's considerable jumping on the bandwagon. If they try that without a general acceptance, their own search results will drop in quality by a huge amount, because the majority of the worthwhile pages won't be in those results. Known as "Shooting self in foot." You think they'll go for that?

              You're putting the egg before the chicken. Or something like that. Google wants this. You don't have to do this. No one has to do this. The only reason this would turn into a major screwup is if people follow Google down this rabbit hole. So it, in a small way, is up to you. Are you going to adopt these rogue tags and split the web into Googly and non-Googly for Google?

              Me... no, I'm not. Screw those guys, I'm going home. As Cartman might put it.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Pino P on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:52PM

      by Pino P (4721) on Thursday May 25 2017, @02:52PM (#515483) Journal

      One key difference between AMP and Microsoft's proprietary extensions to HTML in the IE 3-6 era is that Google has provided a polyfill for all AMP tags [github.com] under Apache License 2.0.

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @03:53PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 25 2017, @03:53PM (#515516)

    If anyone needed more reason to avoid AMP, it's got a code of conduct [github.com].

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by kaszz on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:33PM (1 child)

      by kaszz (4211) on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:33PM (#515720) Journal

      We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for everyone, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, personal ability or disability, ethnicity, religion, level of experience, set of skills or similar personal characteristics.

      Not Linus Linux compatible eh? ;-)

      So how will the code work when you can't tell a person that their code is bad and shall not be used. I think I got the answer.. it will be exploited, coredump, and fail in general.

      Got a good trigger warning right here: "friendly, safe and welcoming environment"

      • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Friday May 26 2017, @10:56PM

        by kaszz (4211) on Friday May 26 2017, @10:56PM (#516180) Journal

        Coding is absolute, consequential and no excuses.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by ilsa on Thursday May 25 2017, @05:38PM (4 children)

    by ilsa (6082) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 25 2017, @05:38PM (#515571)

    I mean, if we're going to abandon standards and use some proprietary crap that a big corporation happened to shit out, that serves themselves under the guise of helping others, we may as well have just stuck with ActiveX and IE6.

    I mean, come on... I can understand if people have forgotten the lessons learned from a generation or more ago, but this all happened barely a decade ago!

    • (Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:01PM (3 children)

      by mcgrew (701) <publish@mcgrewbooks.com> on Thursday May 25 2017, @07:01PM (#515628) Homepage Journal

      One line in TFS says it all--web developers mostly SUCK, especially the ones who woek for newspapers. My sites are in HTML 4.1 and render fast (unless the page has heavy graphics) and render well on any device you can get on the internet with. I look at code for others' web pages ans say "WTF, this is a damned mess!"

      I find it completely unacceptable, ESPECIALLY on a science or tech site. Some won't render on my phone at all.

      Also, take what Google says with a grain of salt. Lat year or the year before they said they were going to downrank sites that won't render well in a phone, but Google News still serves me those unreadable pages.

      --
      Free Martian whores! [mcgrewbooks.com]
      • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:35PM (1 child)

        by kaszz (4211) on Thursday May 25 2017, @09:35PM (#515723) Journal

        They meat the latest (most expensive) phones with the last bug ridden OS. Not your old proven to work phone :p

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 26 2017, @12:24AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 26 2017, @12:24AM (#515764)

        web developers mostly SUCK, especially the ones who [work] for newspapers

        Amen.

        What's especially annoying is when one of those outlets -does- get a guy who knows his ass from a hole in the ground and he makes some changes to the site which -improve- things--then, shortly, he's gone and another nitwit comes in and not only undoes what the smart guy did, the new monkey makes changes that make things _worse_ than before the smart guy got there.

        AlterNet, ThinkProgress, and Telegraph.co.uk are examples in recent memory.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

  • (Score: 2) by Bot on Friday May 26 2017, @05:34AM (2 children)

    by Bot (3902) on Friday May 26 2017, @05:34AM (#515844) Journal

    Have you noticed those google answer boxes?
    You have the answer to your google query right after in the result page.
    Google can do that because site owners dutifully tagged and semantically contextualized their content.

    Which means google mines their sites, offers users an answer and the site owner is cut out (well he could get some 25% CTR from the now slightly less interested users that have already got the short answer). And the sought after #1 spot in search results is now #2.

    The upside is that any site owner can now boast to the ladies at the bar that "I work for google nao". Because he does.

    --
    Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Friday May 26 2017, @10:29PM (1 child)

      by kaszz (4211) on Friday May 26 2017, @10:29PM (#516170) Journal

      I have thought out one counter strategy to this. For other purposes, but it still applies. What site owners have to do is to take the words or sentences on their pages and shuffle them randomly whenever the site is indexed by google but not otherwise. This will enable keyword searching, BUT will mess up any context mining.

      Install the usual bot-trap ;)
      [follow this link] to ban yourself (tm) ..

      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Saturday May 27 2017, @08:13PM

        by Bot (3902) on Saturday May 27 2017, @08:13PM (#516519) Journal

        you are a nice guy. I'd give googlebot perfectly fine phrases with wrong data instead >:)

        --
        Account abandoned.
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