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posted by martyb on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:27PM   Printer-friendly [Skip to comment(s)]
from the keeping-your-friends-close-and-your-enemies-closer dept.

Edward Snowden said that from contacts he has had with those in the White House and in President Obama's orbit, "we've come to understand that [Obama] was personally wounded as a result of these disclosures," which prompted Snowden to seek asylum outside the country.

[...] Snowden also addressed the notion of President Obama pardoning him. Based on communications he had with Obama's White House and those in the former president's orbit, Snowden realized he would not receive a pardon because the information Snowden leaked significantly damaged Obama's legacy.

[...] It had long been speculated, leading up to Obama's final hours in office, that he would grant Snowden a 11th hour pardon.

Snowden, however, disputed this notion saying, "I don't think it was a likely case. I'm not even sure it was a possible case, because the president himself was the one most personally embarrassed by these disclosures."

"[Obama] campaigned in 2007...on the platform of saying he would end exactly this kind of warrantless mass surveillance," Snowden continued. "In secret, instead of ending this programs, he entrenched them and expanded them. He made their reach greater, he made their use more common, he normalized what had been an unlawful and unpopular program of the George Bush administration and made it a new American tradition."

Will Obama's legacy come to be, as Snowden seems to suggest, that he normalized police state surveillance?


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:38PM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:38PM (#520289)

    Legacy is a tricky thing.

    One of our presidents ended the Vietnam war, created the EPA, and built the framework for our current currency usage. Yet he is remembered for 18 minutes of missing tape.

    Legacy will be whatever the history books write down. Currently the historians have a very 'we loves us some Obama' feel to them so I can see what is written down being very favorable. Will students in 50 years learn about what he did? Probably not. They probably will learn about 'obamacare' then move on to the next president the teach decides to talk about.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Snotnose on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:42PM (2 children)

      by Snotnose (1623) on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:42PM (#520290)

      I was 14, talking with friends about what we'd do if we got drafted. A couple of friends had brothers in Vietnam. Then Nixon ended the war. I don't care about anything else, he was a pretty good prez in my book.

      --
      Having a big nose is no reason to not wear a mask. I mean, I still wear underwear....
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:47PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:47PM (#520292)

        Then Nixon ended the war. I don't care about anything else, he was a pretty good prez in my book.

        Nevermind that he prolonged the war to help win the presidency. [smithsonianmag.com]
        Great guy!

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:19PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:19PM (#520325)

          The nixonian parallels keep piling up.
          The president has surveillance on a foreign target that picks up incidental communications about americans who work for a presidential political campaign plotting with those foreigners to manipulate the american election. But the president doesn't go public with the knowledge because (a) he assumes the other guy is going to win despite the dirty tricks and (b) he doesn't want to look like he's manipulating the election. And then the traitor actually wins the election but is so off his rocker that it all starts to implode.

          Meanwhile the traitor's loyalists go on and on about it all just being a made up and a witch-hunt made up by liberals and the press [bostonherald.com] but the whitehouse keeps leaking [thehill.com] left and right to the very same press they can't stop complaining about.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:44PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:44PM (#520291)

    Under Bush the surveillance was conducted cowboy style - the people doing it had very little supervision and oversight.
    Under Obama supervision and oversight was codified. Which is an improvement over what came before, but obviously not sufficient to the task.
    Snowden himself has said that the spying isn't necessarily the problem, its the lack of public accountability. That the american people deserve to decide what should and should not be allowed and that we can't make those decisions if knowledge of the programs is with held from the people.

    N.B. One of the people who fought against that cowboy style was Comey when he was Acting Attorney General. [cato.org] It is debatable whether he fought hard enough, because in the long run the Bush whitehouse just bypassed him anyway.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:40PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:40PM (#520333)

      Hitler just codified and industrialized the pogroms.

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 05 2017, @09:21PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday June 05 2017, @09:21PM (#520990)

      Transparency of secret practices is a tricky business.

      --
      My karma ran over your dogma.
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by splodus on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:47PM (5 children)

    by splodus (4877) on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:47PM (#520293)

    Seems to me Trump is on a personal crusade to simply do the opposite of whatever Obama did.

    So maybe Snowden is hoping that if he can get it onto Trump's radar that Obama would *never* grant a pardon. And that Snowden was an *embarrassment* to Obama...

    Well then, perhaps Trump will think 'Ha! I'll pardon him! And call him a hero for exposing whatever it was Obama was up to!!'

    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:52PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @05:52PM (#520295)

      Ding ding ding. There is a madness to the method after all.

    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @06:02PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @06:02PM (#520299)

      Good for Trump to undo Ofuckacare and everything else he and the last 5 or so fucktards (and their cronies) did to us.

    • (Score: 3, Funny) by pkrasimirov on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:26PM (2 children)

      by pkrasimirov (3358) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:26PM (#520327)

      We're speaking about Trump here, right? So he may actually do it. Overnight. On Twitter. And when Snowden moves to America Trump will declare he's is no longer pardoned.

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:57PM (1 child)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:57PM (#520341) Journal

        And when Snowden moves to America Trump will declare he's is no longer pardoned fired. I mean, actually fired. With guns.

        FTFY

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
        • (Score: 1) by Frost on Monday June 05 2017, @06:10AM

          by Frost (3313) on Monday June 05 2017, @06:10AM (#520587)

          I mean, actually fired. With guns flamethrowers.

          FTFY

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by looorg on Sunday June 04 2017, @06:02PM (19 children)

    by looorg (578) on Sunday June 04 2017, @06:02PM (#520298)

    Obama's legacy will be that he was the first black president, that will overshadow everything else -- isn't that sort of like stating the obvious?. I don't know if he even normalized the police state surveillance, it was there before him. He just happened to be in office when it become "public knowledge". But considering that he was probably not a smashing success as a president I don't think we'll see another one like him for quite some time.

    Snowden getting a 11th hour pardon? That was never going to happen, even Snowden knew that. The last minute pardon (or commuting of sentence) Manning got was risky enough, he did it when he was out the door already cause he didn't want to face or be involved in a public shit storm that would have followed if he had done it at an earlier point in time when he had a long time left in the Whitehouse.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @06:29PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @06:29PM (#520308)

      But considering that he was probably not a smashing success as a president I don't think we'll see another one like him for quite some time.

      Meanwhile incompetent old white guys keep getting elected.
      That's the real affirmative action.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:01PM (6 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:01PM (#520342)

        Meanwhile incompetent old white guys keep getting elected.
        That's the real affirmative action.

        And you'd prefer incompetent black guys been elected?

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @11:51PM (5 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @11:51PM (#520448)

          They should at least get an equal shot.
          Compare Obama's resume with the guys who proceeded and followed him.
          They aren't even on the same level. Fuck, trump barely got a 4 year degree.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @07:03AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @07:03AM (#520603)

            Yeah but Obama didn't have the sense to inherit a fortune and a job from his father. Typical lazy urban.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @09:59AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @09:59AM (#520648)

              Yeah he inherited from his white mother instead.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday June 05 2017, @08:27AM (2 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday June 05 2017, @08:27AM (#520628) Journal

            Compare Obama's resume with the guys who proceeded and followed him. They aren't even on the same level. Fuck, trump barely got a 4 year degree.

            A resume is not a degree. It's a history of relevant life experiences. Both Bush and Trump ran businesses at least. But I suppose that's a negative for the edgelords who can't hold down a job.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @03:01PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @03:01PM (#520770)

              Don J. "Smallhands" Trump ran businesses all right, to the ground.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday June 06 2017, @12:21AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday June 06 2017, @12:21AM (#521063) Journal

                Don J. "Smallhands" Trump ran businesses all right, to the ground.

                And got rich doing so.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:18PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:18PM (#520324)

      first black president

      It's funny, now that you mention it, it does seem pretty obvious.

      It has almost been a decade since he was elected so it is probably easier for the younger generations to forget, but in the historical context a black president is a big deal.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:20PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:20PM (#520348)

        Why? Outside of novelty value, I don't see how race/sex/etc firsts are achievements anymore. It's not like some major accomplishment against adversity. Obama likely *gained* net votes, rather than lost, thanks to his race. It was a selling point. Now a days it's like cheering for the first left handed president. To be clear, take us back let's say 60 or so years and I'd absolutely agree with. A black person achieving much of anything during that era was invariably going to be somebody who had to fight against and overcome unfair adversity. Nowadays being black is a selling point for a president! It's not even just a liberal thing. Ben Carson is absolutely batshit insane, but people were able to overlook that for the sake of aiming for diversity.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:39PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:39PM (#520354)

          Ben Carson's support wasn't about diversity, it was about tokenism.
          Same with the appointment of Thomas to the SCOTUS.

          PS - your post smells of mayo and bologna

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @10:50PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @10:50PM (#520406)

          take us back let's say 60 or so years and I'd absolutely agree

          It's almost as if it is a big deal in the historical context, while younger generations would probably not see it as something incredibly significant.

          Wait, didn't I mention exactly that in my previous post? Yes, I guess I did.

          Do I personally think it is a big deal that Obama is black? No, but future US history books will mention it as an important event following the successful civil rights movement.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:57PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @07:57PM (#520340)

      I really doubt that.

      People are rarely remembered because of identity factors. Who was the first black baseball player? Many if not most Americans could tell you it was Jackie Robinson. But the reason he's remembered is because not only was he the first black baseball player, but he was a hell of a good player. To wit, who was the first basketball player? There might be some sports of trivia fanatics out there, but almost nobody is going to be able to tell you. The reason is that he sucked.

      And in modern times, race/sex/etc are less relevant than ever. Jackie Robinson overcame at a time when there was major and overt racism. Some people think somebody saying nigger on an internet forum is racism. No, that's somebody acting like a 13 year old idiot. Racism is not being able to use the same bathroom or water fountain as other races, living at a time when jobs regularly and overtly refused to hire blacks, to say nothing of living during a time when random lynchings of blacks -in some cases just for being black- was still a semi-regular occurrence.

      I think history might look particularly negatively on Obama ironically because of his charisma. He was an incredible speaker. I got chills during numerous speeches of his and I'm hardly an emotional guy. However, I think it's safe to say he's going to go down in history as an unsuccessful president. He just didn't accomplish much good. His biggest accomplishment was arguably Obamacare. But even that is already failing with many Americans left with only 1 choice and soon to be 0 choices in some locations. His results against his charisma and the expectations are quite stark. In many ways, I think the mass disillusionment he created is, more than anything else, what enabled a person like Trump to get into office.

      • (Score: 2) by looorg on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:43PM

        by looorg (578) on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:43PM (#520355)

        I would disagree, most people don't remember a lot about past leaders at all, at best most of them can hope for that one thing they managed to do or happened while in office so but trivial identifying factors or trivia can and do matter. Few of them ever do anything that amounts to a large and important political legacy. How many people still associate Reagan with having been an actor? Star Wars? Carter was some farm hick that grew peanuts? I'm sure the list can go on. When was the last president that did something fantastic that changed the nation in its core for the better?

        I would say there is, probably, a slight difference between whomever was the first black baseball player and the first black president. As first they'll be remembered for that but also as noted for their actions, this is where Robinson shines and Obama will fail and fade. I do admit that I had to look this up but it seems that at least Robinson was the first black player in the MLB. I do admit to not knowing (or caring) much about baseball so I could be utterly wrong here but whomever was the first one was followed by many others. Robinson is still remembered 70 years later. Today there is apparently ~ 7% of all baseball players that are black (down from the all time high of 18.7% in 1981 -- compare it to Basketball where about 75% of the current players are black, or Hockey where 93% of the players are white -- there seem to be some clear racial divides in pro-sports) I'm sure it's not all due to his blackness but that he was also good. Obama as Robinson will forever be remembered for being the first, but unlike him I guess he won't be remembered for being very good -- there was high hopes for him but he just didn't seem to deliver much change. As noted what was supposed to be his legacy, Obamacare, is already being dismantled -- or about to be. If in 70 years times Obama has been followed by many other black presidents then he might been seen as the trailblazer, if not then is the one time chump that blew it for his entire ethnicity.

        This will then be repeated for whomever is the first woman, asian, latino or gay president if, or when, they get elected. A lesbian asian or latina would probably hit the trifecta and be remembered forever.

        http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/19185242/mlb-race-gender-report-card-shows-progress-needed [espn.com]
        https://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/baseball-demographics-1947-2012 [sabr.org]

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:43PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:43PM (#520356)

        In many ways, I think the mass disillusionment he created is, more than anything else, what enabled a person like Trump to get into office.

        Er, no.
        Maybe you forgot, Trump's entry into politics was the selling of a racist conspiracy theory about Obama.
        Obama's failures didn't enable Trump. The people who had a collective freak-out about a black man in the white house enabled Trump.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by zocalo on Sunday June 04 2017, @09:18PM (2 children)

      by zocalo (302) on Sunday June 04 2017, @09:18PM (#520366)
      It might come up for a while, but I'm not so sure whether or not it will last. People in the UK made a big deal about Margaret Thatcher being their first female PM, and that persisted for some time after she was ousted. Nowadays though she's mostly remembered for her impact on the econony, handling of the Falklands War, handling of the Miner's strike, and her rapport with Ronald Reagan, more or less in that order (some might throw "We have become a grandmother" in there as well), but that she was the first female PM doesn't tend to get mentioned.

      And that's absolutely the way it should be. If not, then what does it say about a country or an individual if they judge someone by the colour of their skin, gender, religion, or any other such thing, over what they achieved (or failed to achieve), and how they went about it?
      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
      • (Score: 2) by looorg on Sunday June 04 2017, @09:37PM (1 child)

        by looorg (578) on Sunday June 04 2017, @09:37PM (#520375)

        I agree with you. No doubt. But she will also forever be noted as being the first female. There might be other factors involved such as having a few Queens as rulers, it might take the edge off a bit. But in her case it might also come down to political polarization -- many people where very happy when she died, I even recall the 'ding-dong-the-wicked-witch-is-dead' thing. Perhaps more happier then when a similar male died. The miners or labor unions hated her guts, while people that liked her will remember her for other things -- such as the Falklands war or the IRA or the special friendship with Reagan and the USA. If you do something noteworthy it is naturally easier to remember that, but if you do almost nothing worth remembering then you remember something - like being the first black president. If a lot of other X follow the first X then that also takes a bit of the thing away, Thatcher ... man man man man ... May (26 years between them). If the list for US-presidents goes ... WHITE ... Black ... and then never black again he'll be remembered as the black president, if more comes along then it will fade eventually.

        In some regards it might be sad that we classify people by gender, race or whatever attributes. But we keep doing it no matter how out of style one might think or say that it should be. It's just to easy and obvious not to. It might not be to judge them but just a matter of simple classification.

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by driverless on Monday June 05 2017, @05:20AM

          by driverless (4770) on Monday June 05 2017, @05:20AM (#520580)

          There might be other factors involved such as having a few Queens as rulers

          Going back at least as far as Edward II, and definitely James I.

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 05 2017, @09:23PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday June 05 2017, @09:23PM (#520991)

      Smashing success is in the eye of the beholder. He is sandwiched between the two biggest circus shows since Bedtime for Bonzo made the oval office.

      --
      My karma ran over your dogma.
  • (Score: 3, Funny) by maxwell demon on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:16PM

    by maxwell demon (1608) on Sunday June 04 2017, @08:16PM (#520346) Journal

    Obama's legacy obviously will be giving Donald Trump a very bad idea. [youtu.be]

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Gaaark on Monday June 05 2017, @02:38AM (11 children)

    by Gaaark (41) on Monday June 05 2017, @02:38AM (#520538) Journal

    Obama got a pass: Nobel peace prize just because.... because!

    Obama care seemed to be a mess (I'm not American, so .....).

    What else did he do? Fuck Americans 'land of the free' shit around by taking away their rights! (A black man taking away the rights of all Americans).

    I don't get it... Why is/was he so revered??? Cause he's black?

    --
    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday June 05 2017, @02:41AM

      by Gaaark (41) on Monday June 05 2017, @02:41AM (#520539) Journal

      And you'd better hope Hillary doesn't get in, or more rights will probably leave.....

      Americans need someone like Sanders: someone who will stand for Americans.

      Or something.

      --
      --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 4, Informative) by optotronic on Monday June 05 2017, @03:13AM (9 children)

      by optotronic (4285) on Monday June 05 2017, @03:13AM (#520553)

      Obama is revered because:
      - he is intelligent
      - he is well spoken
      - he acts like an adult
      - he didn't embarrass the country with his words or actions
      - he exudes competence
      - he carefully considered problems before offering a solution
      - he was willing to work with the opposing party
      - he tried to help citizens (and succeeded), instead of wealthy businessmen
      - he managed to get comprehensive health care passed
      - he cared about and acted for the future instead of current greed

      I assume he believes he made mistakes. He was privy to a lot of information I was not, so I can't say with certainty I would have done differently.

      • (Score: 1) by realDonaldTrump on Monday June 05 2017, @04:42AM (1 child)

        by realDonaldTrump (6614) on Monday June 05 2017, @04:42AM (#520577) Homepage Journal

        He's getting that information from wiretapps. Terrible! He tapped my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @07:09AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @07:09AM (#520607)

          Don't forget the birth certificate forgery and the brown suit. Worst President EVER!

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday June 05 2017, @08:43AM (2 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday June 05 2017, @08:43AM (#520632) Journal
        I take it you weren't intending to be sarcastic with that list? Because the first three items are the only ones I'm willing to grant of him. Even then, I'm not going to agree that he acted convincingly when he acted like an adult.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @10:01AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @10:01AM (#520649)

          Well spoken? He has a stutter.

          • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday June 05 2017, @09:25PM

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday June 05 2017, @09:25PM (#520993)

            You've got to compare him to his peers - starting with W, I'd say O spoke quite well.

            --
            My karma ran over your dogma.
      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday June 05 2017, @10:13AM (3 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Monday June 05 2017, @10:13AM (#520652) Journal

        - he acts like an adult
        - he didn't embarrass the country with his words or actions
        - he exudes competence

        He extended and expanded the spying (on YOU!) and on his allies and got CAUGHT!

        Are YOU not enraged by this?
        Are you not EMBARRASSED by this?

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Monday June 05 2017, @10:19AM (2 children)

          by Gaaark (41) on Monday June 05 2017, @10:19AM (#520654) Journal

          Are the young generation so blind they don't know when someone is fecking their arse?

          Seriously. Governments and corporations today are fecking you, and you revere this?
          You use Facebook, you give Obama a pass.

          Bend over some more, cause the future is looking shitty unless MORE people start fighting back!

          Don't use Facebook!
          Don't give shit a pass.
          Shit IS NOT competent!

          Stand up and take back your rights!

          --
          --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @01:37PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @01:37PM (#520722)

            Did you just respond to yourself?
            We can practically see the spittle dripping off your monitor.
            I can only conclude that you are a plant working for the NSA paid to make all protestors of the surveillence state look like off-their-rocker nutjobs.
            With friends like you, who needs enemies?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @06:04PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 05 2017, @06:04PM (#520875)

              I want to add that the guy who founded facebook should get his profile set to public every now and then without his being aware of it, so that everyone can see what he otherwise thought was private.

              i dont approve of the governments actions and spying on the populace, and I try hard to not be a one-issue voter (and I have lots of issues--before we even get into the political stuff...) but I greatly detest what the likes of facebook and google have done specifically to enrich shareholder value, what our ISPs want to do with our data, and why it is so hard to even learn what they are selling about oneself without first becoming a business and actually buying your own details.

              It's that greed and then the things one does to keep making that money... what FB and google and the others have done for shareholder value has helped greatly enable the government to fulfil these things that cause such spittle to require cleaning off our collective monitors... shame on the people that write these things, and shame on those that invest in it with the expectation to profit from it. and may someone have mercy on the fools that use it all for "free", because they aren't getting it from me.

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