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posted by n1 on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:15AM   Printer-friendly
from the two-sides-to-every-job dept.

Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard

When states suffer a widespread loss of jobs, the damage extends to the next generation, where college attendance drops among the poorest students, says new research from Duke University. As a result, states marked by shuttered factories or dormant mines also show a widening gap in college attendance between rich and poor, the authors write.

In states that suffered a 7 percent job loss, college attendance by the poorest youth subsequently dropped by 20 percent, even when financial aid increased. The pattern also persisted across a wide range of states, despite variations in public college tuition rates.

Source: Duke University

Excellent. Maybe now we can get over this idea that our precious little progeny are too good for blue collar work and fill some of the six million jobs that nobody can be found to do.

[Editor's note: On my checking of the '6 million jobs' statement, I came across this article from September last year.]

[J]ob openings at 5.9 million in July set a new all-time record. Yet despite all the anxiety we hear about disappearing factory jobs, the number of unfilled manufacturing jobs in July was at the highest level in recent years. So why are they still open?

Factory work has evolved over the past 15 years or so as companies have invested in advanced machinery requiring new skill sets. Many workers who were laid off in recent decades – as technology, globalization and recession wiped out lower-skilled jobs – don't have the skills to do today's jobs.

[...] Gary Miller [...] started at Ohio-based Kyocera Precision Tools Inc. in 1989, it employed 550 production workers. Since then it has shed half of its workers; yet it now produces twice as much [...] Mr. Miller, who is now the company's director of training, struggles to find technicians with the electrical and mechanical skills needed to operate and maintain the complex machines. One electrical maintenance job went unfilled for over a year as he searched for someone with an associate's or bachelor's diploma in manufacturing engineering.

[...] The study found it takes an average of 94 days to recruit for highly-skilled roles such as scientist or engineer, and 70 days for skilled production workers.

Source: Value Walk

Additionally, there are apparently plenty of jobs in food service. Starting in March of 2010 and continuing through April of 2017, there have been 86 consecutive month of payroll gains for America's waiters and bartenders. Since 2014, 800,000 "food service and drinking places" jobs have been created, over the same period the number of manufacturing jobs created has been just 105,000.


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:03PM (43 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:03PM (#526923)

    I have friends working factory jobs today (mostly 'food service' for big companies like Tyson.)

    There is a reason people are trying to get out of that work, and additionally, at that particular factory alone they ended up cutting 100+ jobs, and forcing the rest of the employees to work overtime, overtime which often has to be fought over as their managers attempt to underreport overtime on anyone who doesn't independently document their own working hours and the hours documented at the end of the day.

    What America needs isn't more 'blue collar workers', it is more companies honestly and fairly dealing with their employees, so that when financial hardships DO arise within the company employees, from the *TOP* on down, will be willing to take as much of a pay cut as is needed to turn the ship around, instead of relying on bankruptcy, mergers, divestitures, etc to 'return profitability' to the corporation.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:22PM (42 children)

      What America needs isn't more 'blue collar workers', it is more companies honestly and fairly dealing with their employees, so that when financial hardships DO arise within the company employees, from the *TOP* on down, will be willing to take as much of a pay cut as is needed to turn the ship around, instead of relying on bankruptcy, mergers, divestitures, etc to 'return profitability' to the corporation.

      The two have nothing to do with each other. You could have Bernie Sanders clones running every company and there would still be unfillable jobs.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:46PM (41 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:46PM (#526941) Journal

        You could have Bernie Sanders clones running every company and there would still be unfillable jobs.

        Really? Why?
        (what exactly stopped people getting the necessary skills/knowledge?)

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @02:08PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @02:08PM (#526972)

          The fact that colleges and universities are the only places to get an education in the 21st century and the vast majority of them are abysmal.

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Saturday June 17 2017, @02:26PM (25 children)

          by Thexalon (636) on Saturday June 17 2017, @02:26PM (#526977)

          More to the point, if there's a skills mismatch, why is it that it's always on the worker to make the investment of time and money to get the skills the company needs? Back in the heyday of the US economy, it was not uncommon at all for larger companies in particular to start people off in a completely unskilled position and actively invest some of their time in training for more skilled work, or even have training programs in which people right off the street would focus on learning the skills the company needed.

          That's what employers will do if the shortage of particular skills is as real as they're claiming it is. Well, that and give everybody who has those skills generous raises, regularly.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 2) by VLM on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:14PM (1 child)

            by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:14PM (#526997)

            AKA the trade union experience.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @01:51AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @01:51AM (#527262)

              ...or that of the worker-owned cooperative.

              FTFS: Kyocera [...] has shed half of its workers; yet it now produces twice as much

              With per-worker productivity up 400 percent, a (Socialist) worker-owned co-op might have cut the work week to 10 hours for all of its workers while keeping paychecks the same (adjusted for inflation or whatever).
              This would serve to maximize social stability in the community where the plant is located.

              What actually happened was that The Ownership Class (which, in the case of Capitalism, isn't the same as The Working Class), wanting to maximize profits for themselves (who likely live in another town), chose to cut jobs and not increase wages dramatically.

              The results you get depend on what your goal is.

              -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 17 2017, @04:14PM (22 children)

            Because you can't train a dipshit to be a machinist at all. Even intelligent people (who went to college and see blue collar work as beneath them) can't be trained in a fiscal quarter (it takes years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to produce a competent one from a current employee) and management usually can't see farther than that.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:37PM (21 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:37PM (#527062)

              Nah, I think you're full of shit. For a while I was applying to any and all jobs available, including the types you're referring to. Machinist? Would have loved to learn they trade, but they always wanted years of experience.

              Nope, there is a massive problem where employers are too lucky and unwilling to train. Gotta have peak efficiency at all times, and they never want to provide real training. Also, many of those jobs are located elsewhere and they don't pay well enough to relocate for.

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:25PM (2 children)

                by frojack (1554) on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:25PM (#527081) Journal

                You don't walk into an airplane plant and ask for a machinist trainee job.
                They hire machinists, not create them.

                You go to small manufacturing plants, or auto repair shops and learn your way around tools. Maybe you start out in a complete different field. Maybe you carry rags, sweep shavings, and wipe down machines that these guys use for a year before or two they let you touch a wrench or turn a knob.

                But you won't be learning that work near airplanes or any high tech industry.

                --
                No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
                • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:31PM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:31PM (#527085)

                  you won't be learning that work near airplanes

                  I see that you've never heard of Navy's A-school.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:09AM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:09AM (#527275)

                    Navy's A-school

                    It's sad that you youngsters never experienced a time when a company -would- bring you along, giving you additional training.

                    ...without requiring you to subscribe to USA's Imperialist Aggression War Machine.

                    -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 17 2017, @07:09PM (17 children)

                You know, they make schools for this now if you're not of a mind to take a lower paying job that will train you. I know, they're not prestigious. They don't take a hundred grand and four years to complete and they all but guarantee you a good paying job upon completion, but they're not fancy.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:55PM (16 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:55PM (#527209)

                  For a lot of people they need the money to go yo school. Such programs cost a decent chunk of cash and don't always mean you'll find a job after. Free or highly subsidized education really helps here, it allows people to retrain with a lot less risk. More flexible economy is good for everyone!

                  Invest in our future, support free education and healthcare! A healthier and more skilled population makes for a strong foundation.

                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @01:35AM (15 children)

                    TANSTAAFL

                    --
                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:13AM (12 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:13AM (#527277)

                      ...especially with Capitalists (who produce nothing) skimming off all the cream before the people who actually perform the work get anything.

                      -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:39AM (10 children)

                        Try creating a significant business only using workers. No management. No owner. See how far you get without ambition and inspiration.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:58AM (9 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:58AM (#527320)

                          I didn't say there is no management.
                          The Workers chose their management democratically: One worker == One vote.

                          In a worker-owned cooperative, The Workers are the owners.
                          Even someone stupid should be able to understand that.

                          Not only are worker-owned cooperatives common throughout the world, they're becoming more common.

                          I've mentioned (probably over 100 times now) a company that has done this since 1956 (Mondragon).
                          You stupidly refuse to acknowledge that it exists.

                          I've also mentioned the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of worker-owned co-ops in northern Italy.
                          You stupidly refuse to acknowledge that those exist.

                          Quit being stupid.

                          -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                          • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @05:03AM (6 children)

                            Who owns the company is irrelevant. What matters is how it's run and that is never decided democratically in any business that does anything impressive. In the end you either have someone at the top with the ambition and inspiration to create something spectacular or you do not get something spectacular. End of story.

                            Yeah, you can put together a handful of socialists and they can limp by. Hell, maybe even grow a little. They're never going to excel against a one man with drive, vision, and the ability to create though. When you remove the reward for excellence, you remove excellence.

                            Maybe that's your goal though. Socialism is top to bottom about envy and nothing irks others more than being simply better than them.

                            --
                            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @10:13PM (5 children)

                              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @10:13PM (#527618)

                              maybe even grow a little

                              Mondragon started in 1956 with 6 worker-owners.
                              Currently they have over 100,000 worker-owners in 40 countries on 5 continents.

                              You are a fool.

                              -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                              • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @10:26PM (4 children)

                                Sit down and do a wee bit of math if you would. Compare those numbers to how fast successful businesses grow in the US. Feel a bit silly now, don't you?

                                --
                                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 19 2017, @11:00PM (3 children)

                                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 19 2017, @11:00PM (#528195)

                                  Some people just can't think outside the Capitalist must-always-maximize-old-memes box.

                                  Mondragon doesn't seek to maximize growth.
                                  ...nor does it seek to maximize returns for stockholders (the idle rich); it has no stockholders.

                                  The goal of Mondragon (et al.) is to maximize social stability for the communities of its workers.
                                  It's not simply about predatory extraction of wealth for people on the other side of the city/state/country/planet.

                                  Exploitive slave economies are an anachronism.
                                  Exploitive feudal economies are an anachronism.
                                  The exploitive boom-and-bust Capitalist system has dramatically demonstrated yet again that it is time to replace that with something more stable.

                                  There are thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of examples of Socialist workplaces worldwide.
                                  They work well and they serve The Workers (which is their purpose).

                                  Your malformed brain, however, will never grasp this concept.
                                  Reactionaries (such as you) hold the belief that "There will always be poor people".
                                  Classists (such as you) believe that some people, despite busting their asses all week, don't deserve a paycheck that allows them a comfortable life.
                                  YOU are an anachronism.

                                  -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                                  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday June 19 2017, @11:35PM (2 children)

                                    Idiot. If it has owners it has people who benefit from maximized profit.

                                    --
                                    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 20 2017, @03:10AM (1 child)

                                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 20 2017, @03:10AM (#528310)

                                      There are maximize-profit outfits, there are non-profit outfits, and there are outfits for whom "enough" is enough.

                                      It's sad how for some people "enough" is never enough.
                                      ISTM that these people have tiny dicks and constantly feel a need to compensate.

                                      -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                                      • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday June 20 2017, @10:29AM

                                        Probably but they cause no harm except to failures who are also consumed by avarice and even that is only perceived harm rather than actual harm. Wealth is not remotely finite; having a hissy that someone has more than you is no less greedy than those who're compensating.

                                        --
                                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 2) by JeanCroix on Monday June 19 2017, @03:03PM (1 child)

                            by JeanCroix (573) on Monday June 19 2017, @03:03PM (#527941)
                            I worked for a worker-owned company once. It was actually a pretty good company. Then the workers democratically voted to put out a public offering and not be worker-owned. Greed won over principle. I don't work for them anymore.
                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 19 2017, @11:13PM

                              by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 19 2017, @11:13PM (#528199)

                              There are thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of examples of Socialist workplaces worldwide who haven't taken that route.

                              ...and it sounds like you're talking about an ESOP, which is still Capitalist and is something entirely different.

                              -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:40AM

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:40AM (#527311) Journal

                        ...especially with Capitalists (who produce nothing) skimming off all the cream before the people who actually perform the work get anything.

                        Not true of wages which get paid before the "capitalist" gets their profit. But is true of pension funds and other nebulous promises of future gain.

                    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday June 18 2017, @11:02AM (1 child)

                      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 18 2017, @11:02AM (#527423) Journal

                      There IS such a thing as an overpriced lunch. I think that is the most common complaint, regarding education. Sure, education has to be paid for, but impoverishing the student for life means you're probably paying for that education multiple times. And, meanwhile, the colleges and universities are sucking at the government teat for themselves.

                      I have little idea how to fix the system, but I can recognize that they system is fucked.

                      You don't have to be an electronics expert to recognize that a charred, twisted, half melted circuit board is fucked. Just one look should convince you of that simple fact.

                      I know, I know, there's a simple solution to overpriced lunches. Just don't order one, right? Well, part of the problem is, the education system is teaching people how to determine value, and that education system is part of the fucked up system. Lower education seems to be in cahoots with higher education, indoctrinating the masses to believe that education is fairly priced, and essential to success and happiness.

                      Of course, everything is quite rosy for those who manage to land a nice scholarship, and/or have rich parents to start with. 4, 6, maybe even 12 years of college, without ever signing on for a loan.

                      • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @01:59PM

                        Over even the moderate term, it's a self-correcting problem. They're going to start losing money as less people opt for a college education. That will likely drive prices down but definitely keep them from growing once the problem is groked. As long as we can keep the feds from throwing good money after bad at least.

                        Regardless, we don't need probably half of the college graduates we have. Gender studies? Liberal arts? Get a fucking job and quit wasting my money to be indoctrinated to hate me. Trade schools ain't anywhere near as expensive as college and will get you 90+% of the earnings you could manage out of a useful college degree.

                        --
                        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 17 2017, @04:08PM (13 children)

          Because the people to fill the jobs do not exist. A fry cook cannot fill an industrial electrician opening.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:18PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:18PM (#527077)

            So you whine about people not taking the jobs, then immediately explain why those jobs remain unfilled.

            BRILLIANT!

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 17 2017, @07:04PM

              Get your shit straight. I bitch about people telling their snowflake children they are too good for blue collar work and need to go to college. This in no way precludes the possibility that employers share some of the blame for unfilled positions.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:43PM (1 child)

            by frojack (1554) on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:43PM (#527090) Journal

            Because the people to fill the jobs do not exist. A fry cook cannot fill an industrial electrician opening.

            But fry cook can apply as a truck-driver or step-and-fetchit for a local electrical company, learn on the job, take a few night courses, accept steadily increased responsibility and be working on high voltage transmission line jobs within 5-8 years.

            First you have to stop being a fry cook. Take a shitty job so the guy currently doing that shit job can move up to the less shitty job, and the guy above him can move up to lineman, etc.

            People these days want to walk off the fry cook job directly into management jobs.

            --
            No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:19AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:19AM (#527278)

              a truck-driver or step-and-fetchit for a local electrical company, learn on the job

              Had he not met up with Sam Phillips and made it big in music, Elvis Presley may have continued on exactly that track.

              -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday June 17 2017, @08:57PM (8 children)

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @08:57PM (#527144) Journal

            You claimed even if a Sanders clone would run every company, the situation will be the same.
            I'll grant you it would be the same if a Sanders clone would start now to run every company, the situation will be the same.
            However, I'm unconvinced by your answer the situation will stay the same or it would have been happening at all if a Sander clone would have start running the companies.

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 17 2017, @10:31PM (7 children)

              Even Sanders wouldn't train machinists on the job. When you need a machinist it's because you need something made exactly right. I doubt he would train electricians or welders either. He might train general repair guys but then industry already does that today.

              When you're hiring someone you want them to produce useful work relatively quickly. You do not want to spend years paying them to receive training and having them leave you for a better paying job the instant they're trained. That would be Stupid As Fuck.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by AthanasiusKircher on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:25PM (3 children)

                by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:25PM (#527199) Journal

                Even Sanders wouldn't train machinists on the job. When you need a machinist it's because you need something made exactly right. I doubt he would train electricians or welders either. He might train general repair guys but then industry already does that today.

                And yet that's precisely how machinists used to be trained. Keep in mind the distinction between a "machinist" (generally implies a production-level worker) vs. a "toolmaker" (a specialist who generally can work from less specs to do one-off precision jobs). Back in the day, large manufacturing plants had huge staffs of machinists just to produce necessary parts to keep machines running, to generate new custom production machines, etc. In such an environment, there was a lot of opportunity for apprenticeship, just as in being a mechanic or electrician or whatever. It's not the type of job that makes the possibility for apprenticeships reasonable: it's generally the amount of work available in that area and whether a large number of such tasks can be divided into bits that can be done by a beginner.

                Toolmakers are a bit of a different animal, and a lot of machine shops these days have moved toward specialization, since production machining can often be automated. So a lot of positions looking for a "machinist" are actually now looking for someone with more specific abstract skills today that would perhaps not have been as common among production machinists in previous generations.

                When you're hiring someone you want them to produce useful work relatively quickly. You do not want to spend years paying them to receive training and having them leave you for a better paying job the instant they're trained. That would be Stupid As Fuck.

                And this is pretty much the attitude that broke the employer/employee relationship that existed a few generations ago. You know how you prevent "having them leave for a better paying job the instant they're trained"? YOU PAY THEM BETTER YOURSELF. You're right that training coupled with low wages is stupid. Training coupled with wages that are high enough to generate commitment to the company and a relationship that shows employers CARE (at least a little) about employees more than just interchangeable minions -- then you get a sense of "loyalty" both among employers and employees.

                Oh, and also you don't generally train them 100% of the time and get NO productivity from them for "years." You hire them into position X, they express interest in training for position Y, you (as employer) perhaps subsidize any classes, find opportunities for them to apprentice, etc., WHILE working and being paid for position X. My father started out as a sort of line worker/packer, took night classes to become a draftsman, then found an opportunity at his job to apprentice as a machinist, then ultimately ended up earning his journeyman toolmaker's credentials. His employers and bosses facilitated each of these steps, and he frankly would have stayed with these companies for long periods except for the fact that he was laid off during downsizing and didn't have seniority. Contrast that with the corporate culture he encountered at the end of his career, where his employer decided that all skilled trades were "multi-skilled workers" who should be interchangeable. After he retired, they gutted their machine shop (which had previously had a couple dozen machinists) and retained only two in-house. Almost all custom work was just sent out to a 3rd-party. No mess, no fuss, no need for training or apprenticeships or journeymen -- just generic "multi-skilled workers" who don't know anything about any particular field.

                Is investment in workers impossible today? No it isn't. There are companies where it's typical for employees to work 10, 20, 30+ years for that company. And not just union shops either where it's hard to fire people. Mostly what it takes it caring about employees and investing in them a bit. Mostly such companies tend to be smaller, often family-owned affairs. You open things up for public stock and let control be taken in the hands of a bunch of executives who don't have any more commitment to the company than the workers, and suddenly everything is about maximizing profit, particularly short-term profit.

                Obviously I'm speaking in gross generalizations here. And I'm not claiming any of this is a simple problem or that any party is particularly "at fault." This stuff is wrapped up in a hundred social shifts, too. But there ARE alternative ways of running a business that don't treat workers as interchangeable cogs in a machine, and businesses can often be very successful with such models. They may not get record profits on Wall Street every year (until they self-destruct after a decade or two and "restructure" until they destruct again), but that's not a reasonable metric for everything.

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @12:04AM (2 children)

                  Wasn't talking machine shops. They can do whatever they like and would have work for apprentices. Was talking generic industrial situations where you have maybe two machinists on site and zero need for an apprentice.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:21AM (1 child)

                    by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:21AM (#527300) Journal

                    So what are your (suddenly much more narrowly defined) companies doing now, assuming your labor shortage is actually at the crisis level you suggest?

                    Machinists generally aren't things that you can just "not have" in large production companies. If you need a machinist to make parts, those parts have to be made. If they aren't, production generally goes way down. It's not like just having a single worker missing from a manufacturing scenario where you just reduce the output by the amount of the individual worker. If you're missing a machinist, parts don't get made, machines stop running, eventually large segments of the company may shut down.

                    So what are your companies doing? It seems there are several options -- they could be paying overtime to existing workers. But that doesn't really make sense for your scenario of 1-2 machinists per company. You can't magically get one person to do the work of 2, and having 2 people do the work of 3 for any length of time is going to be both stressful and costly... and cost a lot more than just raising your offering wages enough to attract another machinist. Well, unless you're abusing your workers with their overtime too, I guess.

                    So maybe they're sending the work out to a 3rd-party shop. Which means a machinist is still getting paid to do the work. Maybe it's inefficient, but the company is clearly willing to live with the inefficiency rather than raising wages to attract an in-house machinist. But in this case, "shortage" isn't exactly the right word, because the work is already being done by machinists, so more work wouldn't magically appear if someone filled the in-house position... rather, the 3rd-party shop would lose business too.

                    But let's say that the shortage is real and the company REALLY wants a machinist in-house. But they're unwilling to pay a premium wage to recruit one. So it seems to me one of the few remaining options is to do some sort of trainee thing, where you find some skilled, intelligent person in the company (or from outside, though you may need to fire your HR person to allow a person without the requisite buzzwords in the door) you're willing to promote (this used to happen in companies a lot), and offer to pay for night school or whatever to get the requisite training. You have them sign a contract (this is common today for employers providing education) where they have to pay you back for training costs if they leave within X amount of time. Ultimately, the company ends up with a trained employee but perhaps saves on premium salary long-term.

                    If the shortage of machinists is as dire as you make it out to be, surely companies WOULD be trying an option like this. Even a shop with only a couple machinists can take on an apprentice with the thought that they'll need another trained one in years to come. It's a good investment for any company that is planning long-term. Alas, that's the real issue here, isn't it? Companies are unwilling to invest in workers because it requires long-term planning.

                    Browse around online a bit and read machinists forums, and see how much actual folks in the trade think about this "shortage." It's about the same rhetoric you get here when Silicon Valley declares a STEM/programmer shortage. You want more workers? Pay more. You still can't find them for what you're willing to pay? Train them or pay to train them. Fact is that overall college still promises higher incomes and higher employment to most people -- when I see companies offering six-figure salaries for a machinist, I'll know your shortage is real and by that point kids WILL be making choices to do that over college. As it is, recent salary surveys tell me that the median salary for machinists is still only around $40000. The median STARTING salary for a college grad is higher than that (including all majors). For technical majors that good potential machinists might be attracted to, the differential for a college degree salary is a lot higher.

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @03:50AM

                      Yeah, that's not how it works. If you don't have enough work to keep the person in a position busy for forty hours a week, you eliminate the position. Apprenticeship is not worth the resulting master given that they're likely to leave for another company that chose to raise their salary rather than train apprentices as soon as their apprenticeship is up.

                      It's likely one of those Tragedy's but it's late and I can't think of which.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 18 2017, @12:48AM (2 children)

                by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 18 2017, @12:48AM (#527228) Journal

                When you're hiring someone you want them to produce useful work relatively quickly.

                And when you can't find it, you have at least two solutions if you really want them:
                - advertise a better salary
                - take the most promising that you already have and enrol them in targeted courses.
                Both of them run contrary to MBA-economic(-non)-thinking, as they require a hint of "social" infusion in the thinking.

                (early 2000, a common slogan in corporate speak was "Our employees are our best/stronger asset" - breakfast at company, 15 mins therapeutic massage sessions in the relaxation room once a week on round robin basis, discounted gym membership... I experienced those in 2004. Then about 2006 started to see a reduction in perks and an increase push towards stack ranking during performance evaluation).

                --
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 18 2017, @01:32AM (1 child)

                  Both of them run contrary to MBA-economic(-non)-thinking, as they require a hint of "social" infusion in the thinking.

                  Nah, they're both perfectly viable options to an MBA. But only when the alternative has proven it will not work sufficiently.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:54AM

                    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Sunday June 18 2017, @02:54AM (#527291) Journal

                    But only when the alternative has proven it will not work sufficiently.

                    Damn'd that mule! After going to so much trouble to teach him how to live without eating, it decided to die on me in the second week.

                    --
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:19PM (11 children)

    by fyngyrz (6567) on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:19PM (#526926) Journal

    Mr. Miller, who is now the company’s director of training, struggles to find technicians with the electrical and mechanical skills needed to operate and maintain the complex machines. One electrical maintenance job went unfilled for over a year as he searched for someone with an associate’s or bachelor’s diploma in manufacturing engineering.

    "Searching for a diploma" is not the same thing as "searching for skills." If you're too lazy and/or incompetent to interview people for skills, you deserve to fail. The second you demand a particular degree, you've shot yourself right in the foot.

    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:51PM (9 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:51PM (#526944) Journal

      "Searching for a diploma" is not the same thing as "searching for skills." If you're too lazy and/or incompetent to interview people for skills, you deserve to fail. The second you demand a particular degree, you've shot yourself right in the foot.

      On the other side, what regulatory risks a company faces if it hires a person with excellent skills but no formal qualification (aka degree)?

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 3, Informative) by fyngyrz on Saturday June 17 2017, @01:07PM (1 child)

        by fyngyrz (6567) on Saturday June 17 2017, @01:07PM (#526947) Journal

        what regulatory risks a company faces if it hires a person with excellent skills but no formal qualification (aka degree)?

        Yes, regulation and the legal system often create significant barriers to getting things done. On the other hand, not having the skills you need in house because you have erected, or accepted, an artificial barrier to actually getting the job done properly isn't going to endear you with the tort-waving crowd either.

        And there's that whole "testing for skills" thing. If "sheet of paper" replaces "test for skills", you may be legally covered, but you aren't actually covered. That just means you're okay with random amounts of malperformance. "Sheet of paper" plus "test for skills" tends to be the same, in the end, as "test for skills", with of course the downside that the field is vastly reduced and tends to lead to statements like "I looked for a year for X and couldn't find X." Also hollow laughter among those who have the skills and not the paper.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @05:00PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 18 2017, @05:00PM (#527524)

          "I looked for a year for X and couldn't find X."

          Perhaps that should be "I looked for a year for Y and couldn't find an X with Y."

      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:06PM (6 children)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:06PM (#526995) Journal

        Actually, fewer risks than you might expect. Let's consider electrical work. A lot of electrical work REQUIRES that an electrician be "responsible" for it. So, you hire an electrician ("an", as in "one") who then "supervises" a cadre of people, each of whom has greater and lesser training, experience, intelligence, etc. That electrician need not be present, to claim that he is "supervising" the workers. That electrician may be responsible for multiple buildings, at multiple remote sites. I think those remote sites all have to be in the same state, but I'm not even certain of that.

        The company that I work for SHOULD HAVE at least four real electricians working in this town. (Main plant only works one shift, so one electrician covers that plant. Second plant works three shifts, we need three qualified electricians.) In reality, it has ONE real electrician. All the rest of us chumps are doing his work for him, at lower wages than he gets.

        That is just one example of stepping around regulations.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:33PM (5 children)

          by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:33PM (#527008)

          It varies immensely by state and muni building codes and regulation, which is frankly a problem for a nation wide workforce.

          In the state I live in, maint work is unregulated by the state. Install work MUST be supervised by a master electrician and all work has to be done by apprentice/journeyman/master with the (typical?) millwright and homeowner exemptions. The millwright exemption is abused (perhaps) such than an electrician has to run power lines to a furnace but a HVAC guy under the millwright exemption can connect the furnace as along as a licensed electrician installed all the wiring and boxes and stuff.

          Adding to the fun some insurance companies and some rental agreements require maint work to be done by a licensed electrician even if the law doesn't require it.

          This is before muni games. In the city I live in some dumbass got electrocuted in a pool half a century ago so our complete muni building code is follow the NEC and the state laws with the exception that only master electricians can do hands on work on pools, hot tubs, saunas, and similar. Its literally two paragraphs on half a sheet of paper, but I "know" some cities have small book sized building codes full of BS.

          Part of the problem is reciprocal licensing is really weird. You pass a state apprenticeship program in any of 50 states and you're licensed here but if you got in via the contractor's test (which is not easy or cheap) you have to retake the test to get our state license even if you took the same test in another state to get their license, weird huh? And we don't internationally reciprocate at all, thats what the contractors test is for. In all fairness if you learned how to wire stuff in the UK you probably need retraining in the USA, all this "ring-main" WTF.

          This is part of the problem with blue collar work, if you're a licensed electrician in one state, it may be difficult to move without reviewing permission from Big Brother. Shades of feudalism, the serf can only leave the land with permission of the local lord.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:59PM

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:59PM (#527021) Journal

            Well, you should like this bit of trivia. Starting with the maintenance supervisor, on down, there is not a single licensed electrician in our plant. We have a guy who claims to be an engineer who does "automation", but he has never made any claim whatsoever as being an electrician. So, not me, not my bosses, none of my coworkers, none of my subordinates is licensed even at the apprentice level. But, we routinely install and service electrical gear and machinery. True, we only work with 480 volt. But, 480 volt is more than enough to start fires, electrocute people, and/or to disrupt service to local neighbors if/when we screw up badly.

            The one semi-meaningful nod to regulations is, we are forbidden to touch the service entrance - that is padlocked so that no one gets into it. But, the least trained person we have is free to scatter his tools inside of service panels around the plant. Go figure, huh? I mention scattering tools, because we had a worker to drop an allen wrench inside of a disconnect box, which sent him to the hospital. Overdosing on iron plasma just isn't real good for a human being . . .

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Saturday June 17 2017, @04:06PM (3 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @04:06PM (#527026) Journal

            Oh, another incident. We had a disconnect box to burn out about 3 months after installation. Replace it, and about 5 or 6 months later, it burns out again. I tell MY boss, there's something wrong here, we shouldn't just replace the damned box again. "No, no, sometimes you just have bad luck. We got two bad boxes in a row. Stuff happens!" So, about 2 or 3 months later, that box burns up AGAIN!!

            Says I, "Are we going to investigate why these boxes keep burning up? Or, are we just going to put another box in it's place?" Two days of nonsense meetings, they decide to pull the wire out of the conduit, and inspect that. Finally. What did they discover? Not one, but two of the conductors had been abraided when it was pulled. Wires shouldn't be moving around inside the conduit, but I guess vibrations conducted up the conduit can cause them to move some. Anyway, every now and then, those wires moved around enough to arc to the conduit, and burn out the disconnect.

            That's the kind of electrical work you can expect where regulations aren't very stringent, and seldom enforced.

            • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:01PM (1 child)

              by RS3 (6367) on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:01PM (#527186)

              Thanks for those anecdotes. I'm many things- very hands-on tech, BSEE, done automation, do lots of wiring. I've seen brilliant work done by non-certified people. I've seen horrible work done by licensed, certified, "professionals", "experts", etc. (_all_ trades). As you know all too well, caring about your work, being a craftsman, etc., are very different from being good at taking courses, passing exams, getting certs, etc. I've done some machining work and learned about deburring, etc. People think I'm weird, odd, wasting time, etc., because I insist on deburring the ends of conduit (metal and PVC), remove casting flash / edges from fittings and boxes, etc. Turns out it's in the NEC. Those poor chaps expect people to care about doing a good job. Many times I've found chaffed and cut wires in conduit- and I'm not a full-time electrician!

              And yes, wire can move quite a bit in conduit. As you know, the current creates a magnetic field, which results in forces and movement in the conductors. But it's OK if there are no sharp edges left behind...

              • (Score: 2) by VLM on Monday June 19 2017, @12:21PM

                by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday June 19 2017, @12:21PM (#527866)

                And yes, wire can move quite a bit in conduit.

                The ratio of copper to steel thermal expansion is like one or two millionth per degree F which doesn't sound like much but you multiply that out and take a 200 foot run from winter time cold to being overloaded in the summer (lets say a swing of 200F from -40F in the winter to a hot summer day in the sun and overloaded a bit, depends on your climate LOL) that copper will end up about an inch longer. Hundreds times Hundreds times Tens suddenly you're talking about a pretty good chunk of millionths. Obviously you don't have to move a whole inch to make a big enough hole to short something out.

                You can also destroy cat5 ethernet cable that way. I suppose with power over ethernet people will be setting cat-5 on fire soon enough, if not already.

                I've seen horrible work done by licensed, certified, "professionals", "experts", etc.

                I suppose it happens although I've never seen a licensed journeyman or higher union tradesman screw something up, it must be pretty rare. I've seen screwups involving them, I remember a data center / carrier hotel installation where a customer initially wanted 3-phase for some kind of power supply so they contracted with the electrican to wire it, then they decided they'll purchase a smaller storage system with 220-V residential-like power supply instead to save money or something, and the dude who hooked it up was like "huh, funny power connector... " and assumed he was getting 4-wire 220 like your home dryer or oven, two hots a neutral and a ground, after all from one wire to the other two was hot on his neon bulb "hot or not" meter so he's identified two hots and a neutral on his first guess, and there was a good ground because the two hots were hot WRT ground (although he didn't check the neutral LOL). I guess they needed a new power supply after that debacle. They tried to blame the electrician who luckily had a signed contract to install 3-phase. One would think the guy installing the hardware would have something fancier than a neon bulb indicator, like a voltmeter maybe, but ...

            • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:02PM

              by linkdude64 (5482) on Saturday June 17 2017, @11:02PM (#527190)

              As an aside, a quality megger would have detected the worn insulation very quickly. It is a very simple, quick, and reliable check to do, and the tools themselves are not astronomically expensive. You would do well to familiarize yourself with them. Or yeah, have your bosses get a damn electrician in there...

              As for the "vibration of the conduit", wires themselves can actually "motorize" and vibrate within runs of conduit due to inrush current or a short circuit. I've never seen it, but an experienced electrical instructor I had saw it once with a commercial air conditioning unit that was tripping a pretty massive breaker out on overload. Said you could hear the wires rattling inside the pipes. Sure enough, it is a documented phenomena.

              Look at about 2:15
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dckmSgp1nw [youtube.com]

    • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:37PM

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:37PM (#527063) Homepage

      Yup, and additionally, the idiot could have hired somebody with the aptitude and trained them in the time that position's been left vacant. Hell, he could have trained an auto mechanic to do the job, auto guys work with large complex integrated systems on a daily basis and have to know it all inside and out.

      Manufacturing Engineering as a degree is rare. Everywhere I've worked always had engineers of multiple disciplines working manufacturing engineering, from the mechanical guys who design fixtures to the computer guys who write the code, to the electrical guys who design the boards. Some engineers are multidisciplinary.

      In fact the only engineer I've met that's even close to that, with a degree in Industrial Engineering, didn't do anything except run his own auto garage.

  • (Score: 2) by linkdude64 on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:27PM (2 children)

    by linkdude64 (5482) on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:27PM (#526932)

    Or maybe College Attendance Drops Because of Widespread Job Loss throughout the country, due to globalist policies.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:34PM (1 child)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @12:34PM (#526935) Journal
      Maybe picking up a bunch of debt just so you can be a bartender or taxi driver with a degree is not as exciting as it sounds.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:39PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @06:39PM (#527088)

        This. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

        STEM enrollment is up [insidehighered.com].
        Humanities enrollment is down [insidehighered.com].

        The poor are likely not taking on debt and four years of opportunity costs in order to get a humanities degree that will qualify them for TFS's "plenty of jobs in food service."

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by VLM on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:12PM (2 children)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @03:12PM (#526996)

    There's a typo in the story

    One electrical maintenance job went unfilled for over a year as he searched for someone with an associate's or bachelor's diploma in manufacturing engineering.

    Actually reads

    One electrical maintenance job went unfilled for over a year as he searched for someone with an associate's or bachelor's diploma in manufacturing engineering willing to work for $7.25/hr no bennies no insurance

    Lets see how many lies we can find in the fake news story with a little googling

    First of all KYOCERA Precision Tools hiring page is

    http://www.kyoceraprecisiontools.com/careers/ [kyoceraprecisiontools.com]

    Lets find those cool tech jobs that have been unfillable for a year. Oh wait, I see only one job open at this shitty company and its not even in Ohio its in Indiana and its not even a tech job its sales "Technical Sales Engineer - Medical Market" Requires a BS degree in sales or marketing, although they'll consider engineering.

    The problem this shitty company has, is first of all they are obvious liars when their own web page disagrees with one of their stooges, secondly they have fired 250 people in the last couple years so only a desperate person would apply (50:50 odds you're getting downsized in the next couple years) and thirdly they trimmed 50% of the fat and STILL have useless positions like "director of training" now a directorship implies a couple manangers with a couple supes with a couple grunts no wonder they're being forced by the marketplace to downsize and the very few production workers left have to work really hard to pay the salaries of the deadweight.

    If you want to do "electrical maintenance" get in the trade union and earn $30-$40/hr as an industrial maint electrician, not $7.25 at some deadweight company full of "directors of training" but no frontline employees anymore. Why would anyone intelligent enough to do that job go to college to get $100K of loans to attend BLM protest for four years when they could be getting paid fat stacks of cash as an electrician doing more or less the same work? The educational-industrial complex or bubble is ever so close to its tipping point. I would not be surprised if by 2020 half the schools out there today are closed. We're that close to the tipping point.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:00PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:00PM (#527049)

      if you're going to try to get juiced into a trade union you better pick a state that the unions haven't killed the economy of yet. :)

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:19PM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 17 2017, @05:19PM (#527051)

    the whole US education system is a crusty white turd. hopefully it will disintegrate and blow away so we don't have to look at it anymore.

    despite more and more money thrown at k-12, the kids come out severely ignorant of anything that matters in the real world and which is future/present compatible. then their parents(usually single, working poor, wage slaves.) are supposed to come up with thousands upon thousands of dollars so these brainwashed little prisoners can learn all about micro-aggressions and shit. or maybe some bankster scum can feed on their youth with predatory loans.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Saturday June 17 2017, @09:13PM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Saturday June 17 2017, @09:13PM (#527147) Journal

      despite more and more money thrown at k-12, the kids come out severely ignorant of anything that matters in the real world and which is future/present compatible.

      Because "no kid left behind" is so easy to slide into "no kid gets ahead" that it will happen in the overwhelming majority of cases.
       

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
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