When I was hired, my firm had its main office in the suburbs. I felt pretty good about the location and environment and purchased a house nearby. At that time, many employees and managers lived in the area. Since then, the firm has changed hands, and the original office space, as part of an ineffectual cost-saving move, has been reduced in half. Ineffectual because the new lease no longer included utilities. The "savings" were spent opening a new office in the city, and a bunch of young sales hires were made for a small bullpen type office. There are no cubicles in the city, and the few offices are reserved for a handful of lucky first movers. Now they are looking for cost savings again. The firm's plan is to shut down the office in suburbia because "having everyone in the same location inspires the best ideas."
Can someone point to some research (e.g., from HBR [Harvard Business Review] or similar) indicating that R&D teams may be best served by being in distraction-free environments separated from the gossip and hubbub of sales? Or that accommodating workers who want to be away from the city may save on labor expenses and employee turnover?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 16 2017, @05:23PM (1 child)
Alas, you've fallen prey to the extroverts.
Through a series of lucky strikes, these extroverts have gained control over the resources of your company, and are now moving to shape your company in their own likeness. They want to live in the lively, bustling city, and they want to interact face-to-face, preferably with lots of team-building and gregarious camaraderie.
After all, social mingling is what has inspired all their best ideas—and is therefore what inspires all of the best ideas.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 16 2017, @07:22PM
This. 100 times, this. Extroverts tend to build environments that they like and thrive in. And expect everyone to adapt and thrive in such environments. Sales and Marketing traditionally has an overwhelming percentage of extroverts. And, in most companies, executive leadership comes from the Sales and Marketing groups because that's where all the money is made. Thus, work environments tend to skew towards those that work best for extroverts. If there is an easy way to claim efficiencies, all the better (even if those efficiencies don't live up to their promise).
(Score: 4, Informative) by Grishnakh on Wednesday August 16 2017, @05:32PM (1 child)
You want research? Who cares? Your management isn't going to listen to any research, and they're going to see you as a rabble-rouser for bringing this up and questioning their new open-plan office with sales and development co-located for "innovation" and "collaboration".
If you want a more productive way to spend your time dealing with this problem, I have the answer right here in these links:
www.dice.com
www.indeed.com
www.monster.com
www.cybercoders.com
www.glassdoor.com -- be sure to post a review of your current employer here before you head to the job listings
Publicly questioning upper management is *always* a very bad career move.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Thursday August 17 2017, @02:14AM
Actually I think this idea is brilliant. If your techies are within striking, or at least walking, distance of the salesweasels they can reach over and club them to death with clue bats whenever they sell customers products that don't exist, can't be built, or violate the laws of physics. Then after a week or so when there are no more salesweasels left, the techies can take over their office space. It's a win/win situation.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by datapharmer on Wednesday August 16 2017, @05:42PM (4 children)
I've seen this thinking and it usually leads back to someone with an MBA and no critical thinking skills. Reconsider if this is a fight you want to fight - you may do better by finding a better company to work for as it sounds like this one is headed in a downward spiral. Once they weed out people from the news a round of pink slips will come next, and you may be surprised by the highly qualified individuals they fire (but don't be, they may make more money and save on the bottom line for the couple quarters before the executives bail out with fat bonuses for "turning things around").
If you do stick around, oxford economics says open environments are less productive: https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/when-the-walls-come-down [oxfordeconomics.com]
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday August 16 2017, @05:49PM (1 child)
I concur with the above.
Regardless, sales people and developers can have useful interaction, if sales actually takes note of what developers say. Sharing office is likely to impede developer productivity however. Consider constant interaction without anything useful to say.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by frojack on Thursday August 17 2017, @12:48AM
But that's not going to happen. Sales, if given any input to development, will always pollute it with off-focus crap that is interesting for all of 5 minutes.
This is why In Dash Entertainment systems connected to the internet is creeping into new Automobiles instead of safety features. This is why every new application coming down the pike as the ability to post to Facebook and why HR systems are now just gateways to Linkedin.
It probably doesn't matter what field of industry we are talking about here. Sales staff are poisonous people with a bright tie, a firm hand shake, a fake smile, and someone else's interests at heart.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 16 2017, @07:18PM
I've seen it too. By the time you hear about the "discussions" or "plan", the decision has already been made. Those discussions and planning sessions happened long ago, and the chance to change your company's decision has past. Arguing now will not make a difference, and it will only highlight you as a trouble-maker. Your decision is to continue working for the company in the city, or find a new place to work. Sucks, but that is corporate life.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Thursday August 17 2017, @08:43AM
There seem to be two issues here. One is open-plan offices. Go and grab a copy of Peopleware[1] - the first edition was published in the '70s, as I recall, and it already had a bunch of citations for why open plan is less productive.
The second is whether engineering and sales should be in the same building. I don't know of any studies here, but from anecdotal experience the more disconnected sales and engineering are, the worse the company does. Scott Adams[2] has a bunch of good examples of this, where sales forget that there's more to making money than getting the customer to agree: you must also be able to deliver the product. Short turn-around for queries here is vital, as is integrating the idea that engineers should be involved in scoping any project into the Sales workflow.
[1] If you read only one management theory book, read this one.
[2] The Dilbert books have a lot more than just the comics!
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by goodie on Wednesday August 16 2017, @05:58PM
Peopleware has some ideas on this topic if I remember correctly. Beck's XP book and Schwaber's Scrum also discuss the fact that ensuring that there are no distractions is optimal (although XP does recommend colocation, but not for the same type of layout you are describing).
(Score: 3, Insightful) by mth on Wednesday August 16 2017, @06:02PM (2 children)
Having everyone in the same building sounds like a good idea, since communication between sales, who know what the clients are interested in, and development, who build the things that clients are interested in, would be easier.
Having everyone in the same room is a terrible idea, because developers need to be able to concentrate. There was an article on the green site [slashdot.org] a few weeks ago; there is a link to research in the blog post.
(Score: 4, Informative) by bob_super on Wednesday August 16 2017, @06:50PM (1 child)
My boss put me in the same room as someone who does phone tech support.
So I moved myself one night into the next room, with the other engineers.
He didn't like that the eng room looked crowded, and sent me back to the other room.
Did he address the point I was obviously making? Nope.
We like the great tech we're working on, but my boss is such an idiot he doesn't realize most of the team is getting ready to walk away because of him, right after the equity vests.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday August 17 2017, @12:59AM
Your boss might have had a good Idea.
When tech support has to deal with a bunch of disinterested engineers to get past a customer's problem it seldom speaks well of the product or the company.
Perhaps you boss wanted to keep YOU from distracting those engineers. (How do you know it wasn't them who turfed you?)
Or maybe he could see your talents might greatly help out tech support, and thereby improve the end product.
Nothing like listening to the same damn questions over and over and over again to assure that such problems will be cleaned up in the next release and NOT JUST by some documentation change. Explaining a sow's ear a few times makes for a better purse design.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday August 16 2017, @07:02PM (2 children)
The solution is simple. Kick out the few people in the city offices and move your teams in. Not crammed in. They just need a door to close. Make cute/silly signs to put on the door like "shh, creating the secret sauce".
I doubt you'll convince management to keep the suburb office. Resisting what management wants when they have total control over you is a waste of effort. Instead, use them to your advantage as best you can. Get them to kick those people out of the few offices and move your teams in.
Slightly OT
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 16 2017, @07:56PM
If someone put a sign on their door saying "shh, making the magic sauce" it would quickly find itself relocated on the toilet door.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday August 17 2017, @01:02AM
Kind of like that Spoiler tag. Probably developed by Sales types, and just about nobody ever uses it in real life. But boy did it feature in the sales blurbs a few months ago.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Wednesday August 16 2017, @07:40PM (2 children)
Having more collaboration is good. But you don't get there by sticking everyone in the same building. You get there by implementing Agile practices, i.e. building minimum viable product, soliciting feedback from stakeholders early and often, and iterating the solution based on feedback with rapid turnaround. These things benefit from colocation, but do not require it.
I would suggest that instead of fighting the change, you tell them how to better meet their goals. Salespeople don't know what makes developers productive; developers do. Tell them that your process needs to involve stakeholders. Then, after spending months working out the kinks in your corporate culture to accommodate these changes, it might make sense to put everyone in the same building together.
Of course it's always possible that this is really about "cost savings". If that's the case, well, there's plenty of advice for finding a sustainable job elsewhere in this comment section.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday August 17 2017, @01:04AM (1 child)
Yeah, Agile... That's it.
NO. Agile is the tool the Sales type beat you over the head with to make it clear you work for them - even if it means you turn out shit all day long.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by meustrus on Thursday August 17 2017, @02:43PM
Agile is a loaded term that was invented by developers but became a management sensation. I'm sorry you are somewhere that heard it as a buzzword and cargo-culted it.
Look into Extreme Programming [extremeprogramming.org]. Development does not need to be adversarial.
If there isn't at least one reference or primary source, it's not +1 Informative. Maybe the underused +1 Interesting?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DutchUncle on Wednesday August 16 2017, @08:21PM (1 child)
"Everybody in the same location" was what they started with. They opened a branch office, and now want to move the main office to the branch. I concur with other posts: You should be looking for another position, not because of the commute, but because the new owners are simply raiding the company.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday August 17 2017, @01:06AM
The B-Ark is downtown. Space is Limited. Here's your hat, what's your hurry?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 16 2017, @09:15PM
I used to work at this company, called Zuora.
They were owned by mainland Chinese and had a development shop in Shanghai that wrote all the Java.
The Java code they were running spewed a mountain of errors, too much for any human to read.
The developers all had the root password - and there was a VPN directly from Shanghai into the heart of the company in Redwood Shores.
I still remember the root password. "zuora123" - they wouldn't let anyone change it. Seriously.
Of course, everyone was in one giant room. We sat at desks that were side-to-side with other desks and front-to-front with another row of desks just like ours.
I have no idea what the woman next to me did but it involved a lot of phone calls. I wore headphones.
But even headphones could not filter out the ship's bell that the Sales Department rang vigorously every time they made a sale. It was worse than working in a firehouse garage.
How people this stupid could be leaders of the free world is beyond me.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Wednesday August 16 2017, @10:41PM
If they cared about constructive feedback, they would have asked for it in advance. Unless you're absolutely sure you can reach out in private to a manager that's high enough up the chain to reverse this move, there's nothing for you to gain from opposing this in the open. Either play it safe by saying nothing or take a little risk by supporting management by saying it won't hurt trying for a few weeks:
Openly resisting the move will only win you the hate of sales and most of management since no one rewards an "I told you so". However, supporting the move, bidding your time, and handing over your resignation a few weeks later over personal reasons once it's clear the move is finalized and conditions are truly intolerable will leave you with some decent references citing what a great team player you are and how sorry they are to see you leave the company.
Overall, good ideas are rewarded but uselessly opposing bad ideas won't win you any friends or benefits. If you want to play it safe then just say nothing.
p.s. A more likely explanation for this terrible decision is that management are aware it's a bad idea. But either want to placate someone in sales by giving it a try or are working their own angle: That's to say, once the complaints from both the devs and sales build up as productivity takes a dive, they'll step in to mitigate between the two camps and save the day by offering a "compromise" at the expense of the devs and possibly even sales.
Alternatively, they're planning to outsource development and won't need an in-house dev team... But that's not worth considering since there's nothing anyone can do about it :/
compiling...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 16 2017, @10:47PM (1 child)
I work in an open plan office as described. So far I have moved desk 7 times to "all be together". Sitting next to finance was the worst. 9 months of the year they do bugger all. For two months they stress fight shout run around generally Finish The Financial Year. Terrible if you are programming.
Buy headphones.
Get a new job.
It was nice while it lasted.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 17 2017, @04:58PM
The finance department here makes me laugh. There are two departments that deal with two subsidiaries I've been employed by.
The first went with the standard finance year like you described. They would come in late, leave early and all of that was obviously led from the top. They send us reports to fill out and accounting paperwork once a quarter and absolutely inundate us once a year. A lot of that requires more work out of the other departments as they have to dig through things and reconstruct, if they're not prepared. Plus, finance outright scream at each other around tax time and constantly complain about not being paid enough (maybe if you showed up to work, you'd get paid more, as many are hourly).
The second's employees treat it like a standard 8-5. They come in about the same time, have sane vacation time, do the same amount of work with a smaller staff, and get paid more to boot. I have a standing report that is due every month and actually get responses to my emails. No quarterly or yearly reports, and they actually schedule a face-to-face meeting around tax time (with an agenda and everything) to nail down details or big ideas. They also keep roughly the same hours around tax time as the rest of the year, with no net overtime (they get two weeks off each after tax time).
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday August 17 2017, @04:46PM
I think the ship has sailed on making this company into your perfect career for life. Do investigate other options, and move when a good one presents.
Meanwhile, "take one for the team," let them know you prefer to stay in the suburbs, that you will be more productive with an insulated work environment, and that sales can bloody well start a teleconference, complete with video presence, if they ever want to communicate something without driving their butts out to the suburbs, and that making R&D drive into the city 5 days a week is silly. Maybe even suggest that R&D can work from home, if this is something they might entertain and you want, but... throughout it all, make it clear that you love the company and are willing to do whatever it is that they think is best for the working arrangement - give them no reason to suspect that you'll be jumping ship. Because: it takes a while to find a better opportunity, you want to keep your present paycheck rolling in while you do that search and you want the power of negotiation with the new place that you already have a paying gig, you'll have to give professional notice, etc. etc.
"Proving them wrong" with research will only piss them off and is unlikely to change any outcomes in a desirable direction for you.
🌻🌻 [google.com]