from the then-the-Basques,-and-then-...? dept.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41191327
Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy says he will ask the courts to revoke a law passed by the Catalan regional government to hold a referendum on independence. He described the vote, planned for 1 October, as illegal.
Earlier, state prosecutors said they would bring criminal charges against Catalan leaders for their endorsement of the referendum.
The pro-independence majority in Catalonia's parliament passed the referendum law on Wednesday. Spain's wealthy north-eastern region already has autonomous powers but the regional government says it has popular support for full secession.
See also:
- Will Catalonia try to secede from Spain this year? [Jan 2017]
- Catalan independence: Plan for quick split from Spain after vote [Jul 2017]
- Catalonia's push for independence from Spain [Nov 2015]
Related Stories
Police and would-be voters have clashed during a Catalan independence referendum held on Sunday:
Scenes of chaos and violence unfolded in Catalonia as an independence referendum deemed illegal by Madrid devolved quickly on Sunday. As police followed orders from the central government to put a stop to the vote, they fired rubber bullets at unarmed protesters and smashed through the glass at polling places, reports The Associated Press. Three hundred and thirty-seven people were injured, some seriously, according to Catalonia's government spokesman.
Spain's Interior Ministry said a dozen police officers were injured. NPR's Lauren Frayer reports from Barcelona that some people were throwing rocks down at officers from balconies. Yet the violence came from all directions.
"Horrible scenes," Lauren reports. "Police dragging voters out of polling stations, some by the hair."
Scuffles erupted as riot police forcefully removed hundreds of would-be voters from polling places across Barcelona, the Catalan capitol, reports AP. Nevertheless, many people, managed to successfully cast their ballots across the region after waiting in lines hundreds-of-people-deep, including the elderly and families with small children, says Reuters.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said that he did not acknowledge the vote and called it "illegal".
Also at NYT, Bloomberg, The Washington Post, and BBC:
Catalan emergency officials say 761 people have been injured as police used force to try to block voting in Catalonia's independence referendum.
Update: Catalan referendum: Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'
Spain Vows to Enforce the Law in Rebel Catalonia
Catalonia Leaders Seek to Make Independence Referendum Binding
Previously: Spain Trying to Stop Catalonia Independence Referendum
After Catalonia's leader missed a deadline to clarify the government's stance on an independence referendum, and missed another deadline (Thursday calling for an unambiguous renouncement of the independence referendum, the Spanish government plans to strip Catalonia of its autonomous status:
Spain was preparing to impose direct rule over semi-autonomous Catalonia after the region's leader Carles Puigdemont declined to categorically renounce an independence referendum, the prime minister's office announced Thursday.
Spain's government said it would hold a special Cabinet meeting and "approve the measures that will be sent to the Senate to protect the general interest of all Spaniards."
At the Cabinet meeting, the government would invoke Article 155 of Spain's constitution allowing it to strip Catalonia of its self-governance. That would take effect on Saturday, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's office said in a statement.
Madrid had given Puigdemont a 10 a.m. (4 a.m. ET) deadline to clarify his government's stance on a non-binding declaration of independence passed by the regional legislature following a successful referendum on secession. But the Catalan leader insisted on keeping his options open, but that wasn't good enough for Spain's government, which had insisted on an unambiguous "no."
Bloomberg reports "Merkel and Macron Have Spain's Back as Catalan Crisis Escalates":
European Union leaders offered their support for Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy as he prepares to suspend the powers of the Catalan administration to clamp down on its push for independence. EU chiefs arriving for a summit in Brussels on Thursday said they backed Madrid and stressed that the issue of Catalonia's independence was a domestic one for Spain.
"We're looking at this very closely and support the position of the Spanish government, which is also a position that's been adopted across parties," said German Chancellor Angela Merkel. "Of course this preoccupies us, and we hope that there can be a resolution on the basis of the Spanish constitution." Asked whether he supported the Spanish government, French President Emmanuel Macron said "always," adding that "this summit will be marked by a message of unity of its members in regards to Spain."
Also at BBC, The Guardian, and EUObserver (opinion).
Previously: Spain Trying to Stop Catalonia Independence Referendum
Police and Voters Clash During Catalan Independence Referendum
Former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont was tracked by Spain through fitting his group's car with a surveillance device as well as following the mobile phones of his companions. He was eventually captured in Germany on his way to Belgium from Finland.
Spanish intelligence agents had been tracking the movements of the former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont using the geolocation service on his friend's mobile phone before he was detained in Germany at the weekend, according to reports.
Puigdemont was detained under a European arrest warrant in the northern German province of Schleswig-Holstein on Sunday morning as he journeyed by car from Helsinki to Brussels, where he has been living in self-imposed exile since Catalonia's unilateral declaration of independence last October.
From The Guardian: Spanish spies 'tracked Carles Puigdemont via friend's phone'
An international warrant for Puigdemont's arrest had been rescinded back in December but was revived for this occasion. Already back in September, the Internet Society issued a statement about the Spanish government's great efforts to outright censor online activities promoting or discussing the bid for Catalonian independence.
See also earlier SN stories:
Spain Moves Forward With Plan to Suspend Catalonia's Autonomy
Police and Voters Clash During Catalan Independence Referendum
Spain Trying to Stop Catalonia Independence Referendum
(Score: -1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @06:27PM (5 children)
Somos los Penes Erectos Negros.
Nunca follamos coño viejo.
Siempre follamos coño joven.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @06:51PM
¿¿Donde están los Dick Niggerѕ??
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by edIII on Friday September 08 2017, @08:55PM
Offtopic or not, that is a funny response :)
Some context might be nice, but that is in other posts....
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @08:57PM
¡Son todas vacas! ¡Las vacas van moooooo! Moooo vacas moooo! ¡Mooo va las vacas! ¡VACAS CATALUÑAS!
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @09:35PM
Now do it in Catalan.
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday September 09 2017, @01:21AM
Nice. Not as satisfying though, was it?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 5, Informative) by FakeBeldin on Friday September 08 2017, @07:04PM (29 children)
The good part is that the state prosecutors are not talking about people who said in the media that they are in favor of this vote.
The bad part is that the state prosecutors are talking about legislators elected to the official Catalan parliament, who voted "yes" in parliament.
Yes, this issue is so polarised that there is no such thing as parliamentary immunity. Even though members of the Catalan Parliament have parliamentary immunity in Spain [wikipedia.org]:
Double-you-tea-eff.
The Spanish government (which opposes a referendum) argues that holding a referendum violates the constitution. To uphold the Spanish constitution, they're going to violate the constitution...
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday September 08 2017, @07:10PM (2 children)
Some articles are more equal than others...
(Score: 1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:12AM (1 child)
Go Catalonia! Go Basqueonia! Stick it to those pendejo pinche rattas Merkeles who want Islamic scum in your beautiful and olive oil-drenched land!
Carve those cerdos into Jamon Serrano, serve with extra olive oil, and enjoy with a cerveza y siesta!
AYEEEEE! YEEEHAAA! Andale!
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:52AM
http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-mapa-islam-espana-300000-musulmanes-mas-ultimos-cinco-anos-y-1400-centros-culto-201604102314_noticia.html [www.abc.es]
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalu%C3%B1a [wikipedia.org]
In Catalonia (as Autonomia) 510481, total population 752259, that makes over 6.8% already.
Only Spanish administrative places with higher % are probably the two small autonomous cities in the north of Africa, Ceuta and Melilla (they are special cities, the rest of the country goes with Autonomies of one or more provinces).
And central government already told Merkel to go fuck herself about immigrants, because "open door" would be an invitation to get an horde at the doors... and that exactly what happened. Some countries said no loudly, Spain just plays dumb and paperwork is sloooooooooow.
Andale, pendejo and pinche are more Central and South American terms, BTW.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @07:20PM
Sounds like Spain already knows what the answer of such a referendum would be.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @07:20PM (21 children)
Sounds like a possible Constitutional crisis.
Any good examples in history where a country had a Constitutional crisis?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Unixnut on Friday September 08 2017, @07:39PM (5 children)
Yugoslavia comes to mind.
Constitutional crisis was resolved when one side said **** the constitution, took up arms, and the result was a civil war and disintegration of the country.
The constitutional crisis was not so much resolved in that scenario as much as rendered irrelevant. Constitutions (and other laws) are only as good as the violence available as backup to coerce the following of those laws.
Looks like Catalonia (at least based on what I have read in the papers) will hold a referendum, and if they get enough votes they will declare unilateral independence and tell Spain to stuff its constitution where the sun don't shine.
Then we will see if Spain is willing to back up its laws with force, and where that leads Spain (who coincidentally, is no stranger to civil wars themselves).
This of course, assumes:
a) That the vote is fair and not rigged by Spain (or others who which to see a particular outcome)
b) The people actually vote to secede. Polls state that a max of 40% of people would vote "yes" to independence, but then, most pools thought Hillary would win, so you can't really trust them (every poll is biased, usually towards whoever is funding said poll).
c) The Catalan politicians actually have the balls ( and/or backing of a stronger power) to actually follow through and tell Spain to get stuffed if they win the referendum.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday September 08 2017, @07:54PM (2 children)
That might be dicey for Spain vis-a-vis the EU. Maybe better informed people can chime in here, but I recall the EU constitution paying a lot of lip service to self-determination.
If Catalonia secedes and succeeds, will Brittany and Scotland follow?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @08:57PM (1 child)
The EU Constitution may pay lip service to self-determination, but in reality the EU seems to poo-poo the idea. They weren't supportive of Scotland's independence referendum at all, threatening Scotland with not being part of the EU, though one of the main reasons Scotland wanted out of the UK was so they could have better ties to the EU.
It would be interesting to see a wave of independence movements succeed in the EU: Scotland, Catalonia, Brittany, Basque territory, perhaps more places like Galicia and Wales too. Most of these places seem to be very pro-EU, they just don't want to be under the particular country they're in; it's a lot like various new-state proposals in the US, such as Jefferson. In theory, the EU should do better with more smaller countries that have less internal friction and their own regional autonomy, but are all committed to the overall EU concept, just like the idea behind the founding of the USA. For competing with the rest of the world, European nations would in theory do better as part of a strong federal republic, but there aren't many examples of federal republics being successful with such large differences in cultures and languages between their member-states.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Unixnut on Friday September 08 2017, @09:19PM
> but there aren't many examples of federal republics being successful with such large differences in cultures and languages between their member-states.
Two come to mind for me. Russia (whose full name is the "Russian Federation"), and India, both of which have multiple cultures, religions and languages within them.
Russia is interesting because it has federal states, autonomous regions, and allied states who remain independent, so it is a bit of a "pick and mix" of how integrated you want to be. Perhaps that is why it managed to grow so large, yet still not disintegrate after many centuries.
India doesn't have that, but it has been able to successfully corral 150 different languages and cultures into one "country" as such (and as some Indians explained to me, there is a large difference between the different groups, in behaviour, culture, religion and language).
Of course, it is never plain sailing, and there is always some kind of conflict or disputes between groups, although in both cases of Russia and India, the disputes were primarily with those who followed the Islamic religion, and who generally have a bit more trouble than most integrating peacefully with others.
I guess it depends on what you define as "successful" really. Also, the only federation of a single language and culture (officially) is the USA, and pardon me from saying, but it seems there is a lot of discord and disagreement within the country. Could just be human nature to argue and fight and generally compete against others, whether internally or externally.
(Score: 2) by FakeBeldin on Sunday September 10 2017, @08:25AM (1 child)
but analysts suspect many of the 60%-ers will not go and vote, while many of the 40%-ers will.
So there seems to be a real possibility of the result being "SI" while the will of the majority is "NON".
Moreover, some Catalan politicians have already remarked that they will ignore turnout if it means they get to secede.
They phrased it differently, but that's what it boiled down to.
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Sunday September 10 2017, @09:10AM
Interesting, I guess we will see what happens. One thing though:
> So there seems to be a real possibility of the result being "SI" while the will of the majority is "NON".
If the result is "SI", it means that was the will of the majority. Those who don't vote are essentially voting that they don't care which way it swings, so it can be considered "SI" for both sides.
Also explains why they would ignore the turnout, it would be the right thing to do. As long as they ignore the turnout if it was a "non" as well.
Moral of the story is: if you actually care about such an important referendum, you go out and vote. Only way to be sure people don't assume you are for either option. If you don't vote, both sides can claim you are on their side, and then things can get messy.
Either way, looks like things will be interesting in Spain in the coming weeks.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @08:06PM (4 children)
Maybe the Germans could lend a hand they have some experience in helping with constitutional crisis in Spain
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:20AM (3 children)
The few remaining patriotic Germans(and Spaniards to include the Catalans and Basque) should enlist the help of football hooligans from across the land. They could bus them in George Soros-style. Football hooligans hate Islamic savages and authority more than they do their teams' arch rivals and have demonstrated time and time again that they have hair-triggers for rioting.
As an American I'm actually jealous of this. Sure, our version of football has much more hard contact, but our fans are rather soft in that violence in the stands and at the bars during games is sporadic, though it is amusing to watch drunks hurl full beers at each other (splattering screaming wives of bystanders) in the stands of a live game.
This is why (+1, informative) any one person is allowed to buy only 2 beers at a time* at ball games in the U.S. -- I discovered this at a baseball game, and holy Jesus fuck are those slow, when I tried to buy 4 beers and received the bad news.
Most venues, including all I visited, but not all.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:44PM
I guess you've never watched a game in Boston?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @09:30PM (1 child)
I'm quite sure that that's "Trump-style".
Poland Promised to Bus In Cheering Crowds for Trump as Part of Invitation [dailykos.com]
...on which they carried through.
(Content is behind scripts) [archive.li]
That's not the only time that Trump has used pre-paid crowds. [google.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 10 2017, @01:42AM
Enjoy your delusion. I can tell you with 100% certainty that 90% of people in Poland would cheer for Trump for free.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by dry on Saturday September 09 2017, @03:18AM (9 children)
Came close in Canada. Quebec has had two referendums on separating, with the second one being very close, 50.5%-49.5% in favour of staying IIRC. Afterwards the federal government passed the Clarity Act, which basically said that a clear majority has to vote to leave without saying what exactly a clear majority is. It went to the Supreme Court whether the Federal government could pass and enforce that law and ignore a 50%+1 majority voting to separate and the court agreed that the feds could, which made the Quebec separatists very unhappy.
Personally I think that such a major decision is like a Constitutional Amendment , which in Canada generally follows the 7/50 rule (7 out of 10 Provinces containing 50% of the population, but a 100% for some amendments, probably including breaking up Canada) and usually takes a super-majority in other countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:37PM (8 children)
The biggest practical problem I see with Quebec secession is its location: it's not that far from the middle of Canada, and there's several provinces to its east, esp. the "Maritime provinces". If Quebec leaves, now you have to go through a separate country to get from one province to another. It wouldn't be nearly as big an issue, I think, if it were Newfoundland trying to secede. Considering how much Quebec likely contributes to the Canadian economy and resources (a lot of hydro power is generated there), I can see why Canada is reluctant to let them leave. As for a "clear majority", they really should define that term if they're going to use it, but in other contexts it usually seems to mean 60%.
Personally, I'm a believer in self-determination, but I do think the clear majority rule is a good one; deciding really gigantic things based on only a plurality (50%; I hope I'm using the right term here), isn't sufficient, because you could do another vote the very next day, or even later that same day, and get a different result: the margin for error is greater than the amount needed to win by. By requiring a clear majority of 60%, or perhaps even more (75%?), the separatists can truthfully argue that the people of that region really do want to separate, and it's only a minority that doesn't, and that this isn't just some short-term fad or emotional feeling. If you're deciding something as momentous as what country a large region is part of, it can't be something that people change their mind on quickly, just like you can't have married people with kids together getting divorced and remarried to each other multiple times a week: the consequences of the action are too great, and too much administrative effort ensues from that decision, that it needs to be made carefully, and only once. If only half want to leave, personally I think that's not enough; they really need more agreement than that for it to result in stability.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:53PM (2 children)
Maybe Newfoundland could become an independent country again, as they were before the Act of Dominion in 1949. Perhaps the rest of the Maritimes (New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia) would join them. They're kind of an afterthought in Canada anyway. Its national center of gravity is in the middle, in Ontario, with its west rapidly growing in importance thanks to Pacific trade.
Quebec seems like it would continue to do about as well as an independent country as they do as a Canadian province. They'd surely keep open borders with Canada and the US, and they have ocean access so shipping would not be a problem. On the plus side, Quebecois'd stop having to speak English and the Anglophones in the rest of Canada would stop having to learn French.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday September 09 2017, @03:02PM
Maybe Newfoundland could become an independent country again, as they were before the Act of Dominion in 1949. Perhaps the rest of the Maritimes (New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia) would join them.
Maybe, but what if they don't want to? Small regions with few resources are usually better off as part of a larger collective, rather than trying to be independent. Maintaining your own national government and military is hard and expensive, and having to pay customs and duties for everything you import gets expensive; that's why small regions tend to band together into federations and unions.
the Anglophones in the rest of Canada would stop having to learn French.
They could just change the law in the other provinces to fix this if they really wanted.
Quebec seems like it would continue to do about as well as an independent country as they do as a Canadian province.
Perhaps, but I don't think the same can be said of the Maritime provinces.
(Score: 2) by dry on Saturday September 09 2017, @05:11PM
Newfoundland gave up its Dominion status during the depression due to basically going bankrupt. It's hard to imagine it doing much better as an independent country now. The rest of the Maritimes don't have much going for them economically either.
As for French populations, Manitoba and New Brunswick both have large enough French speaking populations that it wouldn't be that easy for Canada to become purely English speaking. And considering that it would take an amendment to the Constitution to break up Canada, there would have to be a lot of compromise.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by dry on Saturday September 09 2017, @05:05PM (4 children)
Yea, Quebec leaving and keeping its current boundaries would probably kill Canada, with the east cut off. Which brings up the other point, should Quebec be allowed to keep its boundaries? I don't think the natives wanted to go, they made their deal with the Queen, not Canada or Quebec. Quebec was also a lot smaller when they came into Confederation, all that northern land could be given back to the natives, sort of like Nunavut.
Yes I agree that 60% should be the minimum, look at Brexit, basically a tie and like you said, the next day the vote may have gone the opposite way.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday September 09 2017, @06:13PM (3 children)
Which brings up the other point, should Quebec be allowed to keep its boundaries? I don't think the natives wanted to go, they made their deal with the Queen, not Canada or Quebec. Quebec was also a lot smaller when they came into Confederation, all that northern land could be given back to the natives, sort of like Nunavut.
That's an excellent point I never even thought of. Do they have counties in Canadian provinces the way US states do? I wonder how the Quebec independence vote looks if you look at it county-by-county instead. If most of the counties don't want to go, but only a few populated urban ones do, then that isn't fair either; would the separatists still want to secede if they could only make the Montreal area a new country, and they were dependent on those northern areas (now a separate country, part of Canada) for their water and power?
As I said before, I'm all for self-determination, but you have to be practical. There isn't much point to being an independent nation if you can't even be remotely self-sufficient, and are utterly dependent on other countries for your basic services.
(Score: 2) by dry on Saturday September 09 2017, @07:25PM (2 children)
Some Provinces have counties, others not. I'm in BC where we have regional districts that are kind of a weak county. Better would be to go by ridings (election districts), as that is how the numbers are available. I believe it would actually be the opposite, Montreal staying and the rural areas leaving if you went by ridings. The rural Quebecois are pretty conservative in some ways.
There's also issues like the old border dispute between Labrador and Quebec, made worse by the hydro on that border.
Quebec leaving would be pretty complicated, much more then the separatists campaigned on, which basically was staying in a common market with Canada, using our money and similar things that Canada may not have agreed to.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday September 09 2017, @07:47PM (1 child)
The rural Quebecois are pretty conservative in some ways.
But not the more remote areas where the First Nations people live, right? I imagine they'd want to stick with Canada.
using our money
That's another big problem with separatism: having to have your own currency, and all the friction that happens when you try to trade cross-border with different currencies. Over in the EU it's not so bad because they already have a common market and common currency so those advantages are absent, making the case for separatism much stronger.
(Score: 2) by dry on Saturday September 09 2017, @11:53PM
The natives aren't Quebecois, rather Cree, Dene, Inuit and I forget what else and might be misrembering the native nations who occupy the north of Quebec, been a long time since grade 6. The Quebecois traditionally occupy the lands close to the St Lawrence. I think the natives wanted to stick with Canada. Generally they don't really recognize either the Federal or Provincial governments, having made treaties with the Crown. Constitutionally, the feds are responsible for the natives and if they didn't want to go with Quebec, it would have complicated things quite a bit.
As for money, if a country wants to use another countries currency, I don't see how you could stop them. On the other hand, they don't have any control and can't inflate away debt. Other treaties such as NAFTA also wouldn't automatically cover Quebec though old ones like the Jay treaty probably would as they predate Confederation.
It's much more complicated then the Quebec separatists campaigned on and I'm sure it's the same with Catalonia.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @08:16PM (1 child)
Why should or how could the state bring criminal charges against people who said in the media that they are in favor of this vote? Strawman too much?
No, as like with Al Capone, state prosecutors are talking about legislators who among other things illegally aproved spending money of all catalonians after being specifically warned by the highest courts that had no authority to do so following the previous 9-N election fiasco and, even formally warned by the own Catalan parliament lawyers that was illegal.
Nowhere in the civilized world parliamentary immunity means not being held accountable with due process for illegal or criminal acts. Even presidents or kings can be prosecuted. How could otherwise be in a democracy?
You should notice that the exercise of their official duties doesn't include aproving illegal laws for which have no authority nor spending money for them.
i.e. Legislators elected to the official Catalan parliament can't aprove death penalty laws or that forbids gay marriage or abortions, or secesion.
If they do, the laws are void, if they spend money to develop these illegal laws then is when they are criminally liable. Where in the world is not?
This is one such case.
Non sequitur [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by dry on Saturday September 09 2017, @03:25AM
Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_immunity [wikipedia.org] especially the section on Brazil, where members of the legislature are immune from most everything including murder (unless caught in the act).
The Queen (Commonwealth) is also immune from the law as she is the law.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @10:56PM
The issue is if the law is illegal. Then prosecution is lawful.
And the current laws don't allow unilateral secession, so what they did put them under the hammer.
But laws can be changed, and then splitting could happen. Even the Constitution can change. Just follow the process to do so.
Or with less fuss, they could get a full-of-Spain referendum and see who stays and who leaves (change of Constitution). They will need one anyway if they want the right to split unilaterally (that is another change to the Constitution), so just go direct to the thing instead of one referendum for everyone and another local.
And then it would be really funny if >50% says Catalonia leaves... but per location counts say those votes come from the places that want to stay.
So funny because Catalonians should be happy. As whinners can be. No matter what happens, they could whine it was not their choice, they were forced to stay or they where kicked out. Never mind they started it all.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @07:26PM
End of the nation state [soylentnews.org]
No country can allow a small section to secede, otherwise they lose control and money. They'll do whatever they can to stop secession, but obviously it is becoming a rather popular movement around the world. Smaller areas are wondering why they should continue to be members of a state that does not work the way they want, and I can't really fault them for that. Perhaps civilized society should allow people to form their own communities and see how things work out.
Decentralized society will be more adaptable and resilient. Personally I'm tired of thieves being allowed to steal public taxes and allocate resources in ways that do not benefit the actual people.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @07:58PM (5 children)
If Catalonia manages to leave Spain, my guess is that the Basques (border with France, Pyrenees mountains) will be next.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_%28greater_region%29 [wikipedia.org]
In the mid-1970s I had an instructor who was Basque. His position was that the Spanish hated the Basque because the Basque were smarter, and also controlled a lot of business and wealth.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @09:27PM (1 child)
Why would that be difficult to translate? I think it maps pretty directly to "Basquish Country". Like Herri, "country" also can mean anything from "region" to "nation" to "populace".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @11:23AM
Or better yet, Basqueland.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @09:35PM
Other people would say that whites were smarter...
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday September 08 2017, @10:01PM
Man, this makes me want to play Europa Universalis again as Spain (Castile).
Invade France, Aragon, Portugal... then England.
Damn, wish i wasn't working, lol.
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:56PM
Don't give the Basque ideas. They'd take part of Idaho [idahostatesman.com].
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @08:01PM (22 children)
It looks like Spain wants to continue leeching off of Catalonia and will use force to keep it's host in line. i hope you have a plan, Catalonia!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @08:21PM (9 children)
Catalonia, California, Catalonia, California.
Coincidence? I think NOT!
(Score: 2) by edIII on Friday September 08 2017, @09:08PM (3 children)
It's only a coincidence in that many, many, many, many areas of the world have communities and peoples that are disenfranchised and exploited by their governments and elite classes.
The problem with California is that those elite classes live here too. Most likely, it would be a succession of California, Oregon, and Washington. I don't think any of those states have significant percentages of peoples that are not disenfranchised and exploited.
I predict that an actual vote will be for full independence from Washington, D.C. and that it will pass. Regardless of whether or not it is illegal.
As the years of the Trump
presidencytrainwreck go on, the willingness of the majority of voters that didn't vote for Orange Anus to have full secession increases.Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Friday September 08 2017, @09:20PM
All ruled by Democrats for the last 50 years, so you are probably right.
Other than that Oregonians are probably little different than the other two because they actually have rebellion and insurrection experience.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday September 09 2017, @03:00PM (1 child)
I keep thinking the capital of the 2nd American Republic ought to be in Denver, to cut the elites in the Northeast off at the knees. The mindset of that whole region is out of step with what the country is now. They have fully retained the class mentality of Merry Olde England there.
I say Denver and not St. Louis because Denver has better skiing.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @10:34PM
Denver has better skiing
Perhaps some of the legislators would avail themselves of that.
...like the guy who extended copyright to 95 years.
...and died after he slammed into a tree. [google.com]
Though he was never in government, a similar thing was done by a Kennedy. [google.com]
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:31AM (4 children)
At first glance, you'd think they shared the same plight. But once you look within both societies, with Catalonia you see solidarity against an outside force. With California, you see an oppressed majority against a tyrannical minority, namely everybody else against Los Angeles and San Francisco. Think of California in terms of being Spain, or Europe as a whole, in terms of movies and T.V. and facing its own internal revolt, particularly from examples Demolition Man and the Star Trek: TNG episode The Hunted.
You can think of California as being one of the most successful examples of demographic warfare -- namely importing rampantly-breeding and disloyal Mexicans who turned a red state blue. The European fifth-columnists were reminded of this example in that those with no loyalty other than to that of the welfare state -- Islamic savages -- can be used to keep an unscrupulous regime in power.
This is why Donald Trump is Making America Great Again in kicking out all the Mexicans. And I'm not knocking the noble Castillians, Mexicans are to Spaniards as Orcs are to Elves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @04:57AM
Lololol, keep dreaming you nutjob.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @08:57AM
I disagree with your opinion. I defend your right to have an opinion and voice it in public.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Grishnakh on Saturday September 09 2017, @06:30PM (1 child)
WTF? Are you on drugs? You're not even making sense. When was the last time you watched The Hunted? (It happens to be one of my favorite TNG episodes BTW.) It's about a bunch of super-soldiers who were made that way for a war, but then after they won the war, they were deemed too dangerous to return to society, so they were forcibly relocated to a moon base. They just wanted to go home, so they fought an insurrection to do just that, to force their own society to take them back in instead of sticking them in a prison because they were too inconvenient. What that has to do with California, I cannot even imagine. There's no issues with ex-soldiers in California I'm aware of, and in the episode, those soldiers were actually a very, very tiny number compared to the population; only a dozen or so were even shown in the episode, and I don't remember the dialog that well, but it was never implied that they were ever all that numerous (the process to make them super-soldiers was probably expensive and didn't scale). But it only took a handful of them to successfully invade the planetary government and take the leaders hostage, but again all they wanted was to be taken back into society. That's nothing even remotely like the issues which separate liberals and conservatives today.
Secondly, I don't have actual numbers in front of me, but this "oppressed majority" thing is crazy. LA and SanFran put together, plus the liberal voters in the entire San Diego region, are most likely an actual majority, which is why the state is generally liberal at the state level, though not completely as they have elected Republicans like Schwarzenegger (though he's really pretty liberal for a Republican). Just like any state, at the state level every citizen gets a vote. Sure, the conservative areas may be larger than the liberal areas, but there's this thing called "population density" you seem to be ignoring here. Having more land to spread out on doesn't mean your vote should be worth more.
And Demolition Man? Again, WTF? That's just about a society that's become too polite for its own good, and completely unable to deal with violent criminals. But they did in the end, by bringing back someone from the past with experience and ability, which ended up causing a lot of social changes too.
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday September 10 2017, @01:08AM
The Hunted is totally relevant because it is about an oppressed section of society fighting the will of their government against their own interests.
Although its primary allegory is that of the treatment of returning war vets in particular, invoking the Vietnam war. You know, just like how that filthy fifth-columnist Napolitano famously warned that returning Iraq and Afghanistan vets should be considered domestic terrorists...and look where she is now, making millions being the big boss for the University of California system.
Demolition man is about libertarians fighting against an oppressive control-freak government, and is especially relevant because it takes place in the (fictional) future California city of San Angeles.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @08:31PM (10 children)
Catalonia's debt with the Spanish state is about 200 Billions of euros, and they choose to borrow money from the Spanish state instead of the international market because Catalonia has trash BBB- rating and is much cheaper if they get it at the Spanish state international rate.
Madrid put twice more money than Catalonia for the regional compensation fund between autonomous regions.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday September 08 2017, @10:04PM
Do you have a linky, please?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday September 08 2017, @10:05PM (6 children)
Kind of like the equalization payments in Canada:
Ontario puts more into the 'fund' then it gets out, whereas Quebec gets more out than it puts in.
But let's separate, eh Quebec?
Glad that talks over (for now).
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 2) by chromas on Friday September 08 2017, @10:55PM (4 children)
Did they call it Quebexit?
(Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday September 09 2017, @12:21AM (3 children)
more like Q*bert, lol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q*bert [wikipedia.org] (for the young'uns)
--- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
(Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday September 09 2017, @02:32AM (2 children)
Why does Q*bert have an uncircumcised penis for a nose?
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @07:19AM
fuck knows.
(Score: 3, Informative) by chromas on Saturday September 09 2017, @08:58AM
That's why he's got the asterisk in his name. There's a secret Zionist footnote to indicate he's one of the non-subservient goyim.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @11:58PM
Hey don't dis Ontario like that we are getting only a billion dollars less than Quebec this year! we've almost caught up!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @12:02AM
Here are talking about 265 billions that are the direct public debt with the state plus the proportionate share of the whole of Spain which an independent Catalonia still would have to pay to the state.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-deuda-oculta-plan-independentista-catalan-265000-millones-euros-201709030329_noticia.html [google.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 09 2017, @12:52AM
Actually Catalonia's currently rating is BB [fitchratings.com] that means Non-investment grade [wikipedia.org] junk bonds since is worse than BBB-.
BBB- is the minimum investment-grade so today Catalonia would have a hard time to sell bonds in the open market to finance anything.
(Score: 3, Funny) by turgid on Friday September 08 2017, @08:33PM
Darned Commies, the lot of them, Each and every human being should be a self-sustaining profit centre contributing to the business, Every man is an island. The Market will eliminate the deadwood.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday September 08 2017, @10:35PM (2 children)
What would Stephen Maturin do? Independence of course.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Saturday September 09 2017, @03:01PM (1 child)
Which one, for the Irish or the Catalans? Both?
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday September 11 2017, @03:16PM
Both I'm sure.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @11:03PM
Spanish Liga said, if they leave, they leave the league too. And for international things they will also have to negotiate with whatever is in charge. So no more games in one important league and at least a couple of years getting back into the international championships, assuming they are not forced to start from the lowest levels.
By the balls. Really.
Just like in any Western country, fuck up with the important circus (sports), and there will be riots. Losing civilian rights, no problem. Close a stadium, people take it seriously to the point of injuries and deaths.